<!--quoteo(post=1773054:date=Jun 1 2010, 07:04 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 1 2010, 07:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought games were meant to be fun, not 'realistic'. There's a reason why certain fps games became more popular in mulitplayer than others, and I assure you whether they had air control or not did matter a lot. It's basically a matter of whether you as a new (or more experienced) player can affect what happens to your character. The more you can directly do the better it is, rather than acting once and then letting things play out - something that greatly favours more experienced players over anyone else regardless of innate talent etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed. The best, most popular games are consistent and fun. Screw realism says I.
That being said, the bhop argument is a long and ferverous one. You've got many who see it as a way to gain an edge via skill, increasing the skill ceiling and allowing better, more dedicated players to gain an advantage. It's also a very smooth skill-to-performance system. You can progress about linearly in bhop skill and get about a linear gain in performance. Plus, they've spent a huge amount of time mastering it.
On the other side you've got players who didn't grow up on it or feel like it give too much of an advantage for something that seems non-intuitive. Strafe in air while rotating? How the heck does that give more speed? Sure there's plenty of online guides about learning it, but that takes the extra step to jump out of the game to learn.
It's an annoying debate, and frankly I don't care which side wins at the end of the day in NS2. It's arcadey enough that I could see bhop working, but at the same time I sympathize with the players who freak out about it.
That being said, I personally don't recall ever playing a game that doesn't at least have some form of air control. At the very least the ability to turn while in the air, and most to have some air acceleration, although much less than while on the ground. Either that or they don't let you re-jump for a timer, or make landing drop your speed to zero, or have it tied to a limited resource like "Stamina" that will eventually run out.
<!--quoteo(post=1773110:date=Jun 2 2010, 06:21 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 2 2010, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other side you've got players who didn't grow up on it or feel like it give too much of an advantage for something that seems non-intuitive. Strafe in air while rotating? How the heck does that give more speed? Sure there's plenty of online guides about learning it, but that takes the extra step to jump out of the game to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I tried creating that 'inuitive hop mechanic thread'.Too bad that only people who know bhop seem to contribute in it. Or if you get the rest of the people to contribute, they usually questionize the whole mechanic instead of discussing the inuitiviness (which is fine of course, but not in a thread focusing on the inuitiviness).
I'm all for adding something that gives skilled players a minor edge for a complex and risky bit of maneuvering, but to pretend bunnyhopping in particular deserves to be bumped up from an accidental engine exploit to a legitimate mechanic seems silly to me. Why does the mechanic have to be weird jumps and spins in midair? All the arguments for bunnyhopping could just as easily be applied to, say, requiring you to enter digits of pi into the keyboard with your other hand while running for a speed increase, which doesn't make any sense either. For a good system for complex movement, we can look at Tribes instead, where proper momentum conservation allowed jet pack leaps many times higher and further than standard ones. I don't have an answer for a good movement trick, and I'm not convinced we need one, but I know bunnyhopping isn't the answer.
<!--quoteo(post=1773134:date=Jun 2 2010, 11:12 PM:name=Mortos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mortos @ Jun 2 2010, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773134"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For a good system for complex movement, we can look at Tribes instead, where proper momentum conservation allowed jet pack leaps many times higher and further than standard ones. I don't have an answer for a good movement trick, and I'm not convinced we need one, but I know bunnyhopping isn't the answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Apart from you knowing how to do it, what makes Tribes jetpacking better than any other similar mechanic? It suits the huge outdoor areas of Tribes nicely and seems like an interesting mechanic, no problem with that.
However, it's still physics abuse, makes hardly any sense in real world mechanics, looks awful from graphical viewpoint and apparently requires extensive knowledge of the slopes and maps in the game. Sounds awfully similar to almost every other 'skill movement' mechanic in games. They all run into quite a few problems. I've got no understanding of the finesse in jetpacking, so could you explain it a bit more?
I'm all for intuitive skill based advantages, but I would prefer those to be on a tactical or even strategic level, because let's remember, it's a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just the 2% of the player base (competitive gamers).
It is simply no fun for a new player to be outclassed any time he comes upon a very skilled player. Skilled players should help towards having their team win, not in individual fights. Now in any fps of course skill and twitch action should make a big difference, but imho not enough to totally ruin the game for recreational players.
as for bunny hopping, my opinion is to make it intuitive so people can figure it out on their own, and to limit it in such a way that it can make a difference, but not enough to make the game unenjoyable if you can't do it (which it is atm in ns)
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Dunno, if this was mentioned already, but one of the things that I like about bhop and also marine movement is that you have something to do, to practise and to improve during travel times. It's kinda action while you are on your way to the real action.
<!--quoteo(post=1773187:date=Jun 3 2010, 07:55 AM:name=ZupE891)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ZupE891 @ Jun 3 2010, 07:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->without bhoping.. this is a totally different game.. mind as well call it something else like.. first person starcraft<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, to be fair I was originally pulled in because someone called it First-Person Starcraft. I learned about bhop later when I join the NS Dojo and took a swing at some competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1773184:date=Jun 3 2010, 06:43 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 3 2010, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhm, what. Just play people on your own skill level and it's fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you want to enforce matchmaking like Modern Warfare 2? /snark.
But seriously, then you'd need some way of self-sorting or a stats system. Self-sorting via server tags is OK, but not enough seem to do it. Heck, HoN has the 3 tags of Noob, Veteran, Expert, and noone ever used anything except Veteran except for lol low-level noobs and zomg experts. Everything else became a PSR sorting algorithm.
And really, it's not simply about getting rolled by a better player. I joined up, and played with excellent players. Maybe it was my mindset, but for some reason I tend aspired to become like them. I wasn't disgruntled that every time I faced off with this one guy I'd die. I had other uber players to help my team along. Really, I think it's a mindset and attitude problem. Who ever made this rule that you had to win 50% of the time? Why is it better players lord over the weaker ones, call them idiots, and rage? I think that's an even more fundamental problem than just this one mechanic.
The other option is do what Warsow does and make it an integral component in gameplay, and have in-game tutorials and mechanics that facilitate bunny hopping. But really, I think capping bhop to a 25% max speed increase and the use of alternative movement things, like Hive1 Leap, Marine Sprint, maybe even the side-step jump for Marines, are a better alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1773193:date=Jun 3 2010, 06:58 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 3 2010, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And really, it's not simply about getting rolled by a better player. I joined up, and played with excellent players. Maybe it was my mindset, but for some reason I tend aspired to become like them. I wasn't disgruntled that every time I faced off with this one guy I'd die. I had other uber players to help my team along. Really, I think it's a mindset and attitude problem. Who ever made this rule that you had to win 50% of the time? Why is it better players lord over the weaker ones, call them idiots, and rage? I think that's an even more fundamental problem than just this one mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> don't mean it like that tbh, I never learned how to bhop, but I was part of a clan that did just fine without it (above the average fun clan, but not ocd obsessive level of the top players, although that was only from 1.04 till the start of 3), I'm a tactical player, I'm okay at twitch shooting and aiming, I'm good at reacting and playing as a teammember, but never bothered learning bunnyhopping because it was unintuitive, and at least for me, unenjoyable to learn. That was why I seconded a style of play that was actually enjoyable, intuitive and gave enough of an advantage to be able to make a difference in a fight, but not too overpowered that it simply outclasses anyone who can't do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1773193:date=Jun 3 2010, 05:58 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 3 2010, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you want to enforce matchmaking like Modern Warfare 2? /snark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Quake Live seems to do it very well, never had it so easy to find an appropriately high skill level server. Although it does utterly block me from playing with my friends, due to our skill level differences...
<!--quoteo(post=1773193:date=Jun 3 2010, 06:58 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 3 2010, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773193"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you want to enforce matchmaking like Modern Warfare 2? /snark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> MW2 doesn't do any skillmatching. :)
Tbh, any game with enough players has a self sorting mechanism already built in - good players want to play against other good players, and servers with beginners and casual players can ban people.
It's already been said a lot, but the only reason things are as they are in NS is because there are what like five servers left? Go play CS 1.6 and join a random public server and see how many top players you meet.
<!--quoteo(post=1773150:date=Jun 3 2010, 04:43 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 3 2010, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773150"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Apart from you knowing how to do it, what makes Tribes jetpacking better than any other similar mechanic? It suits the huge outdoor areas of Tribes nicely and seems like an interesting mechanic, no problem with that.
However, it's still physics abuse, makes hardly any sense in real world mechanics, looks awful from graphical viewpoint and apparently requires extensive knowledge of the slopes and maps in the game. Sounds awfully similar to almost every other 'skill movement' mechanic in games. They all run into quite a few problems. I've got no understanding of the finesse in jetpacking, so could you explain it a bit more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In tribes you learn to land your jumps on slopes facing in the direction you want to travel, transferring your downward momentum into forward momentum, so you come out from the valley faster and further than you would if you had lost your momentum by hitting flat ground or a slope facing towards you. Granted the physics weren't perfect, and you needed to time jumps right to make the surface sufficiently frictionless, but on the whole the physics were intuitive and felt very natural once you got the hang of it, and more importantly, it made sense, which is what I'm going for here.
<!--quoteo(post=1773208:date=Jun 3 2010, 09:40 PM:name=Mortos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mortos @ Jun 3 2010, 09:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773208"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In tribes you learn to land your jumps on slopes facing in the direction you want to travel, transferring your downward momentum into forward momentum, so you come out from the valley faster and further than you would if you had lost your momentum by hitting flat ground or a slope facing towards you. Granted the physics weren't perfect, and you needed to time jumps right to make the surface sufficiently frictionless, but on the whole the physics were intuitive and felt very natural once you got the hang of it, and more importantly, it made sense, which is what I'm going for here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 (and I never played tribes, but it sounds intuitive)
<!--quoteo(post=1773174:date=Jun 3 2010, 06:57 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jun 3 2010, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773174"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skilled players should help towards having their team win, not in individual fights.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Just no. This is the poor gameplay mentality that lets me pick up CoD on a free weekend, own every single player who has every kit and been playing for years, and consequently uninstall it the same day for lack of substance.
New players need to get owned in individual skirmishes because it gives them something to look up to and say "yeah I want to get there".
<!--quoteo(post=1773209:date=Jun 3 2010, 01:00 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jun 3 2010, 01:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 (and I never played tribes, but it sounds intuitive)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
except NS2 doesn't give jetpacks at start nor long slopes to ski on....
So yeah, it's a nice idea and really shows off a more intuitive movement enhancer, but unfortunately we can't apply it directly to NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1773195:date=Jun 3 2010, 10:30 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jun 3 2010, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't mean it like that tbh, I never learned how to bhop, but I was part of a clan that did just fine without it (above the average fun clan, but not ocd obsessive level of the top players, although that was only from 1.04 till the start of 3), I'm a tactical player, I'm okay at twitch shooting and aiming, I'm good at reacting and playing as a teammember, but never bothered learning bunnyhopping because it was unintuitive, and at least for me, unenjoyable to learn. That was why I seconded a style of play that was actually enjoyable, intuitive and gave enough of an advantage to be able to make a difference in a fight, but not too overpowered that it simply outclasses anyone who can't do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely know where you're coming from. Heck, I'm still pretty bad at bhop. Instead my strength is map awareness, tactical placement, overall strategy/map control, and precision aim to make up for it. And I totally agree that we shouldn't have one skill that is a requirement for higher skill that isn't a fundamental of gameplay. Accurate shooting, game mechanic, knowledge, unit/avatar/lifeform control, and map awareness are all fundamental to NS, and so being good at them should mean being better at NS. Bhop at its core isn't something NS1 was built on as a core element. It's prevalent and left in intentionally, but you don't have tutorials on it, unlike Quake Live and Warsow. As a result, I say it should be capped as well. It's a nice skill to improve upon, but making it on the same level of importance as accurate aim seems a little odd to me.
<!--quoteo(post=1773203:date=Jun 3 2010, 07:34 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 3 2010, 07:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773203"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tbh, any game with enough players has a self sorting mechanism already built in - good players want to play against other good players, and servers with beginners and casual players can ban people.
It's already been said a lot, but the only reason things are as they are in NS is because there are what like five servers left? Go play CS 1.6 and join a random public server and see how many top players you meet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This wasn't true at all in my experience. Before I learned to prefer a good challenge (and that took several years) I would drift from random pub to random pub, terrorizing those with less free time and slower reflexes, only rarely stumbling onto servers where players consistently had the same or higher skill level than me (this being before the years where all but the veterans stopped playing NS).
True, to find one when you want to you pretty much just need to ask, but the pubs are generally unmanned, or at least don't just up and ban someone for being too good.
Bunny Hopping is too much of a "fluid" mechanic. It has so many variables on how it can be performed.
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion.
*****
Starcraft example:
Starcraft 1 has Mutalisk Stacking.
Starcraft 2 does not.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.
*****
Removing Bunny Hopping, or severely limiting it, is the better way to go. In turn, provide other well defined movement mechanics Players can utilize, with directly apparent drawbacks.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, no one realized how imba Muta stacking can be until recently (and by recently I mean the last couple of years, which is recent compared to the ohgawds amount of time SC1 has been out).
And really, SC1 ZvZ didn't devolve into pure Muta v Muta. Any Zerg player worth their salt eventually had around 12 mutas roaming, but they were harass and contain while other stuff did the hurting.
<!--quoteo(post=1773239:date=Jun 3 2010, 05:00 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jun 3 2010, 05:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Starcraft example: Well here is this argument:
Bunny Hopping is too much of a "fluid" mechanic. It has so many variables on how it can be performed.
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion. ....
Starcraft 1 has Mutalisk Stacking.
Starcraft 2 does not.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume SC2 is a better game then SC1.... which has yet to be seen... I have seen no evidence that sc2 ZvZ is more varied then SC1 Z v Z, especially since there was a lot of variety in sc1 ZvZ...
also Bhop is a skill not a strategy, so it is something help practice and get better at. It be a better comparison to mutalisk micro in SC1 then actually deciding to go mutalisk.
also Bhop has disadvantages because it makes your movement predictable, makes noise, and takes concentration...
Having skills in a game are just as important as having strategies, otherwise you just end up with a turn based strategy game, which is fine, but that isn't what ns is about (for me anyway).
and your argument at the beginning about bhop pretty much outlines perfectly why bhop added so much to the skill ceiling and enjoyability of ns1. If I wanted to play a game with abilities that have clear effects, cool downs, and down sides, I'd play an rpg or something.
What makes fps such a good contest of skill is the lack of definition, nearly everything is 'analog' and can have a wide range of skill levels associated with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1773220:date=Jun 3 2010, 11:02 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 3 2010, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->except NS2 doesn't give jetpacks at start nor long slopes to ski on....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> afaik marines aren't getting bunnyhop in any case, only skulks, yet skulks have leap from the get go, why not make it so that if you leap at properly facing surfaces your leap get's a much better boost than could be given from the a standing start or leaping from a wall not in line with your jump
this would also make ambushes more fun, as it would mean skulks could either choose to leap from a perfect wall, thus increasing their range, but be predictable, or leap from a lesser wall, but surprise the marine who's waiting for you to leap from that perfectly facing piece of piping where the last 3 skulks attacked him
a bunnyhopping technique in leaping would be perfectly acceptable to me, as it combines the fastness of a bunny hop, the intuitiveness of logic and skill, and only works in some situations, giving marines a way to counter it
The thing is, NS has something TFC didn't have, and that's atmosphere. Seriously, if NS2 just turns into players flying all over the map because of bunny hopping, then I'm not going to bother to play. I can at least accept skulks having it, but beyond that...just please no. I love immersion in games, and pyschocats on crack flying through the air all over the place just ruins gameplay for me. Bunny Hopping allowed all around = It's not about what's around the corner, it's about epic random chaotic spam. I don't care if people say it takes "skill", but you know what, it takes skill to create hacks. Just because there's skill doesn't mean it should be welcome. All it is is an engine exploit. If someone has the "skill" to abuse map bugs and go through walls, should it be allowed? If someone has "skill" to abuse the engine flaw to fly around at super speed, should it be allowed? It does nothing but destroy real gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1773239:date=Jun 3 2010, 09:00 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jun 3 2010, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773239"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny Hopping is too much of a "fluid" mechanic. It has so many variables on how it can be performed.
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> bunnyhopping does have a down side; you sacrifice your ability to aim and the predictability of your path for speed. Its fluidity is why it is so great. It makes it a true skill instead of a button push. It is much like aim in that it is an extremely hard hard skill to master to the level of the best person (I would say aim is a more natural ability though), who still has more space to hone their abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1773268:date=Jun 4 2010, 09:27 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Jun 4 2010, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It does nothing but destroy real gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is untrue. It takes away from the immersion of a game, perhaps, but not the gameplay. It adds to the gameplay, seeing as it is a skill that has been balanced into the game. The fact of the matter is that it is a FUN ability and ns is a GAME. And bunnyhopping for skulks is all that anyone is asking for, which you said you're okay with.
<!--quoteo(post=1773276:date=Jun 4 2010, 09:28 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jun 4 2010, 09:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773276"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think in the past year this is like the 3rd or 4th thread about bunny hopping. I applaud those who can't use the search feature.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However, this is one of the more sensible ones instead of the typical "IT STARTED AS AN ENGINE EXPLOIT" rage. =]
Comments
Indeed. The best, most popular games are consistent and fun. Screw realism says I.
That being said, the bhop argument is a long and ferverous one. You've got many who see it as a way to gain an edge via skill, increasing the skill ceiling and allowing better, more dedicated players to gain an advantage. It's also a very smooth skill-to-performance system. You can progress about linearly in bhop skill and get about a linear gain in performance. Plus, they've spent a huge amount of time mastering it.
On the other side you've got players who didn't grow up on it or feel like it give too much of an advantage for something that seems non-intuitive. Strafe in air while rotating? How the heck does that give more speed? Sure there's plenty of online guides about learning it, but that takes the extra step to jump out of the game to learn.
It's an annoying debate, and frankly I don't care which side wins at the end of the day in NS2. It's arcadey enough that I could see bhop working, but at the same time I sympathize with the players who freak out about it.
That being said, I personally don't recall ever playing a game that doesn't at least have some form of air control. At the very least the ability to turn while in the air, and most to have some air acceleration, although much less than while on the ground. Either that or they don't let you re-jump for a timer, or make landing drop your speed to zero, or have it tied to a limited resource like "Stamina" that will eventually run out.
I tried creating that 'inuitive hop mechanic thread'.Too bad that only people who know bhop seem to contribute in it. Or if you get the rest of the people to contribute, they usually questionize the whole mechanic instead of discussing the inuitiviness (which is fine of course, but not in a thread focusing on the inuitiviness).
For a good system for complex movement, we can look at Tribes instead, where proper momentum conservation allowed jet pack leaps many times higher and further than standard ones.
I don't have an answer for a good movement trick, and I'm not convinced we need one, but I know bunnyhopping isn't the answer.
I don't have an answer for a good movement trick, and I'm not convinced we need one, but I know bunnyhopping isn't the answer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Apart from you knowing how to do it, what makes Tribes jetpacking better than any other similar mechanic? It suits the huge outdoor areas of Tribes nicely and seems like an interesting mechanic, no problem with that.
However, it's still physics abuse, makes hardly any sense in real world mechanics, looks awful from graphical viewpoint and apparently requires extensive knowledge of the slopes and maps in the game. Sounds awfully similar to almost every other 'skill movement' mechanic in games. They all run into quite a few problems. I've got no understanding of the finesse in jetpacking, so could you explain it a bit more?
It is simply no fun for a new player to be outclassed any time he comes upon a very skilled player. Skilled players should help towards having their team win, not in individual fights. Now in any fps of course skill and twitch action should make a big difference, but imho not enough to totally ruin the game for recreational players.
as for bunny hopping, my opinion is to make it intuitive so people can figure it out on their own, and to limit it in such a way that it can make a difference, but not enough to make the game unenjoyable if you can't do it (which it is atm in ns)
Hey, to be fair I was originally pulled in because someone called it First-Person Starcraft. I learned about bhop later when I join the NS Dojo and took a swing at some competitive play.
<!--quoteo(post=1773184:date=Jun 3 2010, 06:43 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Jun 3 2010, 06:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773184"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhm, what. Just play people on your own skill level and it's fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you want to enforce matchmaking like Modern Warfare 2? /snark.
But seriously, then you'd need some way of self-sorting or a stats system. Self-sorting via server tags is OK, but not enough seem to do it. Heck, HoN has the 3 tags of Noob, Veteran, Expert, and noone ever used anything except Veteran except for lol low-level noobs and zomg experts. Everything else became a PSR sorting algorithm.
And really, it's not simply about getting rolled by a better player. I joined up, and played with excellent players. Maybe it was my mindset, but for some reason I tend aspired to become like them. I wasn't disgruntled that every time I faced off with this one guy I'd die. I had other uber players to help my team along. Really, I think it's a mindset and attitude problem. Who ever made this rule that you had to win 50% of the time? Why is it better players lord over the weaker ones, call them idiots, and rage? I think that's an even more fundamental problem than just this one mechanic.
The other option is do what Warsow does and make it an integral component in gameplay, and have in-game tutorials and mechanics that facilitate bunny hopping. But really, I think capping bhop to a 25% max speed increase and the use of alternative movement things, like Hive1 Leap, Marine Sprint, maybe even the side-step jump for Marines, are a better alternative.
don't mean it like that tbh, I never learned how to bhop, but I was part of a clan that did just fine without it (above the average fun clan, but not ocd obsessive level of the top players, although that was only from 1.04 till the start of 3), I'm a tactical player, I'm okay at twitch shooting and aiming, I'm good at reacting and playing as a teammember, but never bothered learning bunnyhopping because it was unintuitive, and at least for me, unenjoyable to learn. That was why I seconded a style of play that was actually enjoyable, intuitive and gave enough of an advantage to be able to make a difference in a fight, but not too overpowered that it simply outclasses anyone who can't do it.
Quake Live seems to do it very well, never had it so easy to find an appropriately high skill level server. Although it does utterly block me from playing with my friends, due to our skill level differences...
MW2 doesn't do any skillmatching. :)
It's already been said a lot, but the only reason things are as they are in NS is because there are what like five servers left? Go play CS 1.6 and join a random public server and see how many top players you meet.
However, it's still physics abuse, makes hardly any sense in real world mechanics, looks awful from graphical viewpoint and apparently requires extensive knowledge of the slopes and maps in the game. Sounds awfully similar to almost every other 'skill movement' mechanic in games. They all run into quite a few problems. I've got no understanding of the finesse in jetpacking, so could you explain it a bit more?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In tribes you learn to land your jumps on slopes facing in the direction you want to travel, transferring your downward momentum into forward momentum, so you come out from the valley faster and further than you would if you had lost your momentum by hitting flat ground or a slope facing towards you. Granted the physics weren't perfect, and you needed to time jumps right to make the surface sufficiently frictionless, but on the whole the physics were intuitive and felt very natural once you got the hang of it, and more importantly, it made sense, which is what I'm going for here.
+1 (and I never played tribes, but it sounds intuitive)
Just no. This is the poor gameplay mentality that lets me pick up CoD on a free weekend, own every single player who has every kit and been playing for years, and consequently uninstall it the same day for lack of substance.
New players need to get owned in individual skirmishes because it gives them something to look up to and say "yeah I want to get there".
except NS2 doesn't give jetpacks at start nor long slopes to ski on....
So yeah, it's a nice idea and really shows off a more intuitive movement enhancer, but unfortunately we can't apply it directly to NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1773195:date=Jun 3 2010, 10:30 AM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jun 3 2010, 10:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't mean it like that tbh, I never learned how to bhop, but I was part of a clan that did just fine without it (above the average fun clan, but not ocd obsessive level of the top players, although that was only from 1.04 till the start of 3), I'm a tactical player, I'm okay at twitch shooting and aiming, I'm good at reacting and playing as a teammember, but never bothered learning bunnyhopping because it was unintuitive, and at least for me, unenjoyable to learn. That was why I seconded a style of play that was actually enjoyable, intuitive and gave enough of an advantage to be able to make a difference in a fight, but not too overpowered that it simply outclasses anyone who can't do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I definitely know where you're coming from. Heck, I'm still pretty bad at bhop. Instead my strength is map awareness, tactical placement, overall strategy/map control, and precision aim to make up for it. And I totally agree that we shouldn't have one skill that is a requirement for higher skill that isn't a fundamental of gameplay. Accurate shooting, game mechanic, knowledge, unit/avatar/lifeform control, and map awareness are all fundamental to NS, and so being good at them should mean being better at NS. Bhop at its core isn't something NS1 was built on as a core element. It's prevalent and left in intentionally, but you don't have tutorials on it, unlike Quake Live and Warsow. As a result, I say it should be capped as well. It's a nice skill to improve upon, but making it on the same level of importance as accurate aim seems a little odd to me.
It's already been said a lot, but the only reason things are as they are in NS is because there are what like five servers left? Go play CS 1.6 and join a random public server and see how many top players you meet.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This wasn't true at all in my experience. Before I learned to prefer a good challenge (and that took several years) I would drift from random pub to random pub, terrorizing those with less free time and slower reflexes, only rarely stumbling onto servers where players consistently had the same or higher skill level than me (this being before the years where all but the veterans stopped playing NS).
True, to find one when you want to you pretty much just need to ask, but the pubs are generally unmanned, or at least don't just up and ban someone for being too good.
Bunny Hopping is too much of a "fluid" mechanic. It has so many variables on how it can be performed.
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion.
*****
Starcraft example:
Starcraft 1 has Mutalisk Stacking.
Starcraft 2 does not.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.
*****
Removing Bunny Hopping, or severely limiting it, is the better way to go. In turn, provide other well defined movement mechanics Players can utilize, with directly apparent drawbacks.
/thread(honestly)
Starcraft 1 has Mutalisk Stacking.
Starcraft 2 does not.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To be fair, no one realized how imba Muta stacking can be until recently (and by recently I mean the last couple of years, which is recent compared to the ohgawds amount of time SC1 has been out).
And really, SC1 ZvZ didn't devolve into pure Muta v Muta. Any Zerg player worth their salt eventually had around 12 mutas roaming, but they were harass and contain while other stuff did the hurting.
Well here is this argument:
Bunny Hopping is too much of a "fluid" mechanic. It has so many variables on how it can be performed.
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion.
....
Starcraft 1 has Mutalisk Stacking.
Starcraft 2 does not.
Starcraft 2 has shown Zerg vs Zerg is more balanced, and that we do not just see Mutalisk vs. Mutalisk Final Destination battles every single time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You assume SC2 is a better game then SC1.... which has yet to be seen... I have seen no evidence that sc2 ZvZ is more varied then SC1 Z v Z, especially since there was a lot of variety in sc1 ZvZ...
also Bhop is a skill not a strategy, so it is something help practice and get better at. It be a better comparison to mutalisk micro in SC1 then actually deciding to go mutalisk.
also Bhop has disadvantages because it makes your movement predictable, makes noise, and takes concentration...
Having skills in a game are just as important as having strategies, otherwise you just end up with a turn based strategy game, which is fine, but that isn't what ns is about (for me anyway).
and your argument at the beginning about bhop pretty much outlines perfectly why bhop added so much to the skill ceiling and enjoyability of ns1. If I wanted to play a game with abilities that have clear effects, cool downs, and down sides, I'd play an rpg or something.
What makes fps such a good contest of skill is the lack of definition, nearly everything is 'analog' and can have a wide range of skill levels associated with it.
afaik marines aren't getting bunnyhop in any case, only skulks, yet skulks have leap from the get go, why not make it so that if you leap at properly facing surfaces your leap get's a much better boost than could be given from the a standing start or leaping from a wall not in line with your jump
this would also make ambushes more fun, as it would mean skulks could either choose to leap from a perfect wall, thus increasing their range, but be predictable, or leap from a lesser wall, but surprise the marine who's waiting for you to leap from that perfectly facing piece of piping where the last 3 skulks attacked him
a bunnyhopping technique in leaping would be perfectly acceptable to me, as it combines the fastness of a bunny hop, the intuitiveness of logic and skill, and only works in some situations, giving marines a way to counter it
Oh, me too!
Sprinting and Leaping has very apparent visual recognition of the drawbacks, and the capabilities of it.
There are no downsides to Bunny Hopping/Air-Strafing, but there is with Sprinting and Leaping.
It is better to have defined mechanics than little tricks learned through repitirion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
bunnyhopping does have a down side; you sacrifice your ability to aim and the predictability of your path for speed. Its fluidity is why it is so great. It makes it a true skill instead of a button push. It is much like aim in that it is an extremely hard hard skill to master to the level of the best person (I would say aim is a more natural ability though), who still has more space to hone their abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=1773268:date=Jun 4 2010, 09:27 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Jun 4 2010, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It does nothing but destroy real gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is untrue. It takes away from the immersion of a game, perhaps, but not the gameplay. It adds to the gameplay, seeing as it is a skill that has been balanced into the game. The fact of the matter is that it is a FUN ability and ns is a GAME. And bunnyhopping for skulks is all that anyone is asking for, which you said you're okay with.
However, this is one of the more sensible ones instead of the typical "IT STARTED AS AN ENGINE EXPLOIT" rage. =]