I think it's safe to say that bhop is a <a href="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/grenade.htm" target="_blank">grenade</a> on these forums. Even mentioning the words are likely to derail a topic into an endless argument.
<!--quoteo(post=1773325:date=Jun 4 2010, 11:09 PM:name=Dalin Seivewright)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dalin Seivewright @ Jun 4 2010, 11:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773325"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can we please get a lock on this thread? It is going nowhere faster than my life.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I respectfully disagree, I think a few very valid points and new ideas have been brought forward, yes there have been trolls on both sides, but most of the discussion is civil, new points are made, new ideas brought forward
Well, if they are indeed new (which I highly doubt), then perhaps a new thread in the Suggestions forum tailored to one of these new ideas should be created, and its strengths/weaknesses discussed there. It seems like if there was any new ideas suggested they would be better suited as "Movement Idea" rather than "My Replacement for Bunny Hop Idea." If you want to suggest new movement mechanisms for NS2, the Suggestions forum would be better suited for it anyways. Mentioning anything about Bunny Hopping turns any thread into a debate about whether it should be allowed or not, and of course whether it actually involves skill - which brings out trolls, as well as other such nonsense.
And talking about SC1 versus SC2 does not answer the Bunny Hop debate.
<!--quoteo(post=1773220:date=Jun 3 2010, 04:02 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 3 2010, 04:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Accurate shooting, game mechanic, knowledge, unit/avatar/lifeform control, and map awareness are all fundamental to NS, and so being good at them should mean being better at NS. Bhop at its core isn't something NS1 was built on as a core element.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It became a core element very early on, so what's the difference? Chained builds for structures was a core element, but that disappeared; core elements are free to change as the developers see fit, and they saw fit bunnyhopping. All the "skills" you mention neither have tutorials. How can you "teach" spatial awareness? You can't, it is something that is learned over time, like bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1773268:date=Jun 4 2010, 08:27 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Jun 4 2010, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love immersion in games, and pyschocats on crack flying through the air all over the place just ruins gameplay for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Guess you won't be playing then, as half the alien team and possibly the marine team is capable of "flying all over the place". As for immersion, the standard fare for sci-fi immersion is the stereotypical fast alien.
Let me start off by saying I was a mediocre NS player at my very best.
I never mastered bunny hopping, but I did try. It came off as one the funnest aspects about NS for me, as people have already stated it takes as much skill to bunny hop effectively as it does to aim. I constantly got owned by bunny hopping marines and it made me want to get better and actually practice my skills. I would be pretty disappointed to see it removed.
<!--quoteo(post=1773533:date=Jun 6 2010, 05:39 AM:name=communism)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (communism @ Jun 6 2010, 05:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773533"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Let me start off by saying I was a mediocre NS player at my very best.
I never mastered bunny hopping, but I did try. It came off as one the funnest aspects about NS for me, as people have already stated it takes as much skill to bunny hop effectively as it does to aim. I constantly got owned by bunny hopping marines and it made me want to get better and actually practice my skills. I would be pretty disappointed to see it removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm the opposite. After playing counter strike and tf2 and day of defeat where everyone bunny hops it gets old. It doesn't feel genuine to the game where you can fly around the map x5-10 times your original speed. Just remove bunny hopping and put in the sprint and jump. So the game is fair for everyone.
<!--quoteo(post=1773562:date=Jun 6 2010, 03:22 PM:name=TravCarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TravCarp @ Jun 6 2010, 03:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773562"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->tf2 and day of defeat where everyone bunny hops<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but you cant bhop in tf2 nor dod, the signal-to-noise ratio in these movements-threads is so daunting low.
Edit, just to clarify and sound less harsh. I don’t mind people argue against skill-based movement, but I do mind when these arguments are based on false knowledge or ignorance.
I'd really like to see more skulks on the walls, rather than just hopping around on the floor. Much too often, the mobility advantage you have on the ground far outweighs the positional advantage you can have from being on the wall.
I wouldn't care if there was no bunnyhop. Hive1 leap is essentially replacing it with an intuitive alternative if done correctly. As long as there is still a fair degree of air control everything will be OK.
It's like replacing manual worker placement in SC1 with MULE/chrono boost/inject larvae in SC2. It makes more sense and isn't irritating for those who aren't already invested in it.
Just as long as it doesn't have a ridiculous downside like making you immobile for a short amount of time when you land like was mentioned by Flayra on that chat we had like a year ago. The downside is the same as bhop: increased mobility coming with increased predictability. If you stay on the ground and sidestep you'll tank at least 50% more bullets.
Besides, a well implemented leap might be like bhopping but on walls too
<!--quoteo(post=1772623:date=May 28 2010, 07:48 PM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ May 28 2010, 07:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just strafe side to side with celerity infront of a marine and 9 times out of 10 you'll live. It's pretty absurd how much that messes up the hitbox.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is that after or before lag compensation? Because that thing is mandatory for accurate gaming. And is that with a listen server or dedicated?
Yes, I rather see Skulks using Leap to bounce from Wall-to-Wall then frollicy skipping across the ground and defying physics every single second they have to move.
Take a page out of AvP(the good ones), if you didn't use the walls and the ceiling to dodge, expect to be gibbed. Made the game much more skillful and fun to play.
*****
As for the Celerity Sidestep Dodging, hopefully interp will fix that nonsense(and ya its soo abusable).
<!--quoteo(post=1773779:date=Jun 7 2010, 04:56 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ Jun 7 2010, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, I rather see Skulks using Leap to bounce from Wall-to-Wall then frollicy skipping across the ground and defying physics every single second they have to move.
Take a page out of AvP(the good ones), if you didn't use the walls and the ceiling to dodge, expect to be gibbed. Made the game much more skillful and fun to play.
*****
As for the Celerity Sidestep Dodging, hopefully interp will fix that nonsense(and ya its soo abusable).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think they will still be breaking the laws of physics. Even if the the speed gain goes, the air curve stays.
I'm not that big fan of 2-hive leap skulking, but I guess it can be made pretty interesting with some redesign on leap and skulk's role. Still, I can't really see why bhop should necessarily be dropped even if leap becomes the main tool. Having some adren preserving method can still be useful occassionally. A bit like CS has it's own movement tricks, but they aren't that necessary unless you're really looking ways to take your game further once you're good with the vast majority of basic stuff.
And yeah, I really hope they manage to optimize the netcode against all kinds of desyncing and such.
<!--quoteo(post=1773802:date=Jun 7 2010, 08:56 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 7 2010, 08:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773802"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think they will still be breaking the laws of physics. Even if the the speed gain goes, the air curve stays.
I'm not that big fan of 2-hive leap skulking, but I guess it can be made pretty interesting with some redesign on leap and skulk's role. Still, I can't really see why bhop should necessarily be dropped even if leap becomes the main tool. Having some adren preserving method can still be useful occassionally. A bit like CS has it's own movement tricks, but they aren't that necessary unless you're really looking ways to take your game further once you're good with the vast majority of basic stuff.
And yeah, I really hope they manage to optimize the netcode against all kinds of desyncing and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> afaik leap is available from the start of the game now
<!--quoteo(post=1773806:date=Jun 7 2010, 07:29 PM:name=Biglines)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Biglines @ Jun 7 2010, 07:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773806"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->afaik leap is available from the start of the game now<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it is. I meant that I'm not that big fan of the NS1 part of gameplay where leap kicks in. I've always felt the leapless part in NS1 is way more diverse and interesting as a skulk. This is exactly where they'll have to redesign so that the leap works different in NS2 and it doesn't turn into a completely speedfest right away from the start. I'm sure they'll have some plans for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1773010:date=Jun 1 2010, 09:38 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 1 2010, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On marines you can get away with various systems, at least to some level of functionality. Melee based aliens on the other hand seem extremely tricky to implement without air curve. At least I've never felt particularly comfortable with any melee system not using air curve. You simply end up getting sidestepped/gunned down while approaching in even a bit of open terrain.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't find that true in my experience. I don't incorporate jumps and I do fine. One just has to be able to sneak up on the ranged fighters.
And that's mostly about map design. Huge open rooms (30'x30' or bigger), long wide hallways, and little cover/obstacles makes non bunnyhopping / dodging / air curve / desyncing gameplay impossible.
The air dodging gameplay is much more exciting than getting sneaked up on or seeing the enemy use cover. I'd like to see a mix of both gameplay styles supported by proper map design.
As it is, all hallways in NS are wide and pretty long, there are rather enormous rooms (such that a skulk on one side has major difficulty getting to a marine on the other side), and little to zero cover/obstacles (such as thick pillars) in any rooms.
This is mostly because an Onos has to be able to fit everywhere, bases must have room to build buildings in, and with the HL1 engine, any kind of obstacle instantly stops blinking fades and leaping skulks and also is hell to wall walk over. With a new engine which can handle player-map collisions better, hopefully we'll see a map design which motivates a better balance between the two styles.
Don't you love how everything circles back on itself(see map design comments; it's true).
And again, netcode.
*****
I'll meet the middle ground, I think Air-Speed Strafing Speed Gain should go, but Air Movement can stay; for the Skulk only.
Obviously the Lerk should gain speed when diving and such, like any flight mechanics(I would think this would be obvious to most people). Just all the ground Lifeforms can't Air Turn besides the Skulk(unless the Fade's Blink is like a Superman move again unfortunatly; and only while the Fade is using Blink should he be able to turn in the air).
Maybe, I still think you can remove Air-Turning completly though, since every Lifeform has a Movement Ability to manuver/gain speed/dodge with.
Mno, that would break immersion incredibly. It doesn't really matter what "rules of physics" apply in game, but it has to be universal. You cant change how the world works and feels to move and be in depending on character class, that's.. well it's retarded.
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 05:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No actually. The only reason it was "left in" is because at the time, nobody knew how to "code out" Bunny Hopping in the HL Engine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nonsense. Even I was able to take out bunny hopping. It's trivialy easy; you just renormalize the player speed to what it was before if the player is in the air, the speed has increased and the speed was already above max run speed. If a fool like me can figure out in an hour or two without hurting air control; with no prior experience with the code-base for goldsrc mods; then Flayra can do it, Valve can do it, any half-way competent person can do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 05:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you know anything about the hitboxes and netcode of Valve games(lets take CSS/TF2 as an example), you would know how badly the hitboxes get skewed very quickly when doing any direction changing; especially when doing the Bunny Hop movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping towards a marine in NS1 is almost as bad as running straight at them; that's not what bunnyhopping is for, or good at.
<!--quoteo(post=1774032:date=Jun 8 2010, 11:27 PM:name=Soylent_green)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Soylent_green @ Jun 8 2010, 11:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774032"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nonsense. Even I was able to take out bunny hopping. It's trivialy easy; you just renormalize the player speed to what it was before if the player is in the air, the speed has increased and the speed was already above max run speed. If a fool like me can figure out in an hour or two without hurting air control; with no prior experience with the code-base for goldsrc mods; then Flayra can do it, Valve can do it, any half-way competent person can do it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason this blindingly obvious fix hasn't been implented years ago is because it doesn't work quite the way you expect: You will stop bunnyhopping, yes, but you will also stop all cases where a player has a legitimate reason to be moving faster than max run speed. For example: using leap, using blink, using a jetpack, falling long distances (you've just completely removed fall damage).
Your solution has fairly significant unintended consequences.
I would personally hate to see bhop go. Despite the advantages or disadvantages it may have in the game it is one of the biggest fun factors of NS for me. Bhop is the main thing that got me interested and kept me interested in the game. I wanted to learn to do it so bad and would spend hours in the ready room just jumping around. It would be a real shame to see it go.
I know NS2 is going to be a different game from NS1 but can we not keep the things we love about NS1 in the new one? I for one am not to happy with the way NS2 is coming along and changing from the original concept of the game. If bhop were to be removed (not added) it would sadden me greatly.
Bunny hopping is a big chunk of NS's skill ceiling which makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game. Without spending years to practice bunny hopping they will always be at a disadvantage. I don't want this in NS2.
<!--quoteo(post=1774278:date=Jun 10 2010, 11:59 AM:name=GrapeVine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrapeVine @ Jun 10 2010, 11:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is a big chunk of NS's skill ceiling which makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game. Without spending years to practice bunny hopping they will always be at a disadvantage. I don't want this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you even ever tried to bhop? By that I mean read a tutorial and then practice on an open map by yourself?
Anyone can learn how to bhop, it just a matter of practice, and it absolutely DOES NOT take YEARS of practice, that's a gross exaggeration. If you were to practice for an hour everyday you would start picking it up within days or maybe weeks. Once you get the basics of it then you start getting better at it at a much quicker rate and within a month or 2 you'll be good enough at it that it will start improving your game.
The hardest part is getting the basics down and it's not even hard, you just need to put some actual effort into it. It's sad that some people aren't even willing to put a minimal amount of effort into learning one of the most epic movement techniques in 3D gaming. Once you start bhopping you will love the challenge and excitement it brings into your NS gaming experience and you will realize that it is one of the greatest components to NS.
I truly do not want to sound elitist but the people that are strongly opposed to bunny hopping are always those who cannot bhop or are unwilling to learn how to bhop and simple want that advantage taken away from other players because they are unable to have it themselves. This mentality, while understandable, does not drive the creation of good games. In fact it causes game makers to create games that are mediocre and too simple to interest people who desire intense and challenging gaming experiences where the limit of what you can do and achieve is endless.
Games exist so we can have fun. Good games are alot of fun. Good multiplayer games require good players to be fun. Good players require skill and experience to be good. So why do we want to make games that limit the skill and experience that players can achieve? I'll tell you why, it's because the bad players cry to the game makers that good players keep beating them and instead of getting better themselves they demand that the game makers limit how good other players can be.
Now I'm not a good NS player by any means, but I've been playing the game since 2003 and just this last start year starting making an effort to get better. Now that I can bhop and do alot of things I couldn't do before NS is a much much funner game. I understand the argument that having a high skill ceiling turns away new players but to be honest, those are the kind of players you don't want anyways. If they run away that quickly from a new game then they're too simple minded and/or too stubborn at learning to be any fun to play with anyways. Better to have a smaller community of decent players then a large community of idiots who don't ever learn or communicate and only dumb down the gaming experience for everyone ("Can I get a weld pleeeeeeese?!?!"). Com'on people, if you want to have the most fun gaming you gotta put some effort into it!
If any of you want to learn how to bhop I'd be glad to teach you, add me on steam friends.
<!--quoteo(post=1774278:date=Jun 10 2010, 01:59 PM:name=GrapeVine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrapeVine @ Jun 10 2010, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1774278"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bunny hopping is a big chunk of NS's skill ceiling which makes it harder for new players to enjoy the game. Without spending years to practice bunny hopping they will always be at a disadvantage. I don't want this in NS2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Grapevine, any online game worth playing that is more than a few years old, you better damn well get rolled as a new player. NS is what 7 years old? Add that to the fact that bunnyhopping has been inherent on the HL1 engine since the beginning. So ya if you aren't bunnyhopping by now, then try learning the game as its played today.
Hell man I havent played Starcraft since it first came out. If I want to play multiplayer now (assuming people still do), I would need to learn maps, build orders, strategies, binds, etc in order to be successful. I would probably need to practice my "microing" or whatever for months until I stopped getting steamrolled by experienced players. I know this. I'm not on the Starcraft forums ###### about how its so hard, or for that matter trying to change the development of SC2.
But I see a lot of people that have never played FPS games and are having a hard enough time learning how to move around regardless of bunny hop.
They run up to railings jump straight up and down and forget to hit the forward key to land on the railing... Little things. Many of these people still need to learn basic FPS skills(not just bunny hop) as they can't comprehend being able to push multiple buttons and move the mouse at the same time in the everyday FPS environment. And if you can't even do that. Focus on those skills first. Once you get on the railing... Turn around and jump on it again until you get it just perfect. As there are a lot of railings ahahaha.
FPS games have skills beyond just bunnyhop folks. It isn't just bunny hopping. There is skulk dodging, fade dodging, and many other little aspects that you forget to practice on. Even in Counter-Strike, you learn different techniques of dodging people's aim. You can survive 30 bullets if you can screw up their aim a bit by faking them out.
Bunnyhopping isn't even nearly as hard as Dawk says it is. Assuming, you have experience with mouse+keyboard FPS you should be able to pick it up even faster.
I picked it up with just some quotes from in-game... I had no prior bunny hopping experience. "start with forward jump, release forward, move 40-45 degrees left with mouse while holding left strafe, jump again right as you land, 40-45 degrees right with mouse while holding right strafe" "after a bit of practice you will notice speed increase" "it helps if you bind it to your mouse wheel"
I already knew how to do it a little bit with the space bar just from everyday combat and enemy's skulks bunnyhopping at me going left and right strangely at a high rate of speed. And I can still do it pretty well with just that because mouse wheel was really awkward for me and still kind of is. But I do use the mouse wheel now. I don't use macros like some other people use. I believe that takes away from the game. But even beyond that, there are many other little things in the NS1 game that you can learn that are much simpler than that ... and it will make you a better player.
Dawk is right. I get killed by great players... I then learn how they did that. Often it is these un-skilled games where you just memorize the map and have a proper grenade placement and fire a few bullets to follow racking up the kills. Even people who can barely push a few buttons can look up and throw a grenade and get kills. That also makes the map dull and boring once you memorize it.
And on the other end ... Players will continue to run into the grenade as new players flock to the game and you will continue to own them but they are just horrible and new. After a while they will learn not to go within that grenades blast radius though and they will learn the map. But again... That is just memorizing the map. Boring.
Hence why NS is different. Sure you can learn the map. But the aspects are completely different. You get new games all the time on the same old maps.
Comments
I respectfully disagree, I think a few very valid points and new ideas have been brought forward, yes there have been trolls on both sides, but most of the discussion is civil, new points are made, new ideas brought forward
If you want to suggest new movement mechanisms for NS2, the Suggestions forum would be better suited for it anyways. Mentioning anything about Bunny Hopping turns any thread into a debate about whether it should be allowed or not, and of course whether it actually involves skill - which brings out trolls, as well as other such nonsense.
And talking about SC1 versus SC2 does not answer the Bunny Hop debate.
It became a core element very early on, so what's the difference? Chained builds for structures was a core element, but that disappeared; core elements are free to change as the developers see fit, and they saw fit bunnyhopping. All the "skills" you mention neither have tutorials. How can you "teach" spatial awareness? You can't, it is something that is learned over time, like bunnyhopping.
<!--quoteo(post=1773268:date=Jun 4 2010, 08:27 AM:name=include)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (include @ Jun 4 2010, 08:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1773268"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love immersion in games, and pyschocats on crack flying through the air all over the place just ruins gameplay for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guess you won't be playing then, as half the alien team and possibly the marine team is capable of "flying all over the place". As for immersion, the standard fare for sci-fi immersion is the stereotypical fast alien.
I never mastered bunny hopping, but I did try. It came off as one the funnest aspects about NS for me, as people have already stated it takes as much skill to bunny hop effectively as it does to aim. I constantly got owned by bunny hopping marines and it made me want to get better and actually practice my skills.
I would be pretty disappointed to see it removed.
I never mastered bunny hopping, but I did try. It came off as one the funnest aspects about NS for me, as people have already stated it takes as much skill to bunny hop effectively as it does to aim. I constantly got owned by bunny hopping marines and it made me want to get better and actually practice my skills.
I would be pretty disappointed to see it removed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm the opposite. After playing counter strike and tf2 and day of defeat where everyone bunny hops it gets old. It doesn't feel genuine to the game where you can fly around the map x5-10 times your original speed. Just remove bunny hopping and put in the sprint and jump. So the game is fair for everyone.
Sorry but you cant bhop in tf2 nor dod, the signal-to-noise ratio in these movements-threads is so daunting low.
Edit, just to clarify and sound less harsh. I don’t mind people argue against skill-based movement, but I do mind when these arguments are based on false knowledge or ignorance.
Besides it was said that bunnyhopping is only in for skulks and I could totally see skulks jump when they hit the ground to chase you down.
BAHAHAHA greatest pic ever.
It's like replacing manual worker placement in SC1 with MULE/chrono boost/inject larvae in SC2. It makes more sense and isn't irritating for those who aren't already invested in it.
Just as long as it doesn't have a ridiculous downside like making you immobile for a short amount of time when you land like was mentioned by Flayra on that chat we had like a year ago. The downside is the same as bhop: increased mobility coming with increased predictability. If you stay on the ground and sidestep you'll tank at least 50% more bullets.
Besides, a well implemented leap might be like bhopping but on walls too
Is that after or before lag compensation? Because that thing is mandatory for accurate gaming. And is that with a listen server or dedicated?
Take a page out of AvP(the good ones), if you didn't use the walls and the ceiling to dodge, expect to be gibbed. Made the game much more skillful and fun to play.
*****
As for the Celerity Sidestep Dodging, hopefully interp will fix that nonsense(and ya its soo abusable).
Take a page out of AvP(the good ones), if you didn't use the walls and the ceiling to dodge, expect to be gibbed. Made the game much more skillful and fun to play.
*****
As for the Celerity Sidestep Dodging, hopefully interp will fix that nonsense(and ya its soo abusable).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they will still be breaking the laws of physics. Even if the the speed gain goes, the air curve stays.
I'm not that big fan of 2-hive leap skulking, but I guess it can be made pretty interesting with some redesign on leap and skulk's role. Still, I can't really see why bhop should necessarily be dropped even if leap becomes the main tool. Having some adren preserving method can still be useful occassionally. A bit like CS has it's own movement tricks, but they aren't that necessary unless you're really looking ways to take your game further once you're good with the vast majority of basic stuff.
And yeah, I really hope they manage to optimize the netcode against all kinds of desyncing and such.
I'm not that big fan of 2-hive leap skulking, but I guess it can be made pretty interesting with some redesign on leap and skulk's role. Still, I can't really see why bhop should necessarily be dropped even if leap becomes the main tool. Having some adren preserving method can still be useful occassionally. A bit like CS has it's own movement tricks, but they aren't that necessary unless you're really looking ways to take your game further once you're good with the vast majority of basic stuff.
And yeah, I really hope they manage to optimize the netcode against all kinds of desyncing and such.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
afaik leap is available from the start of the game now
Yeah, it is. I meant that I'm not that big fan of the NS1 part of gameplay where leap kicks in. I've always felt the leapless part in NS1 is way more diverse and interesting as a skulk. This is exactly where they'll have to redesign so that the leap works different in NS2 and it doesn't turn into a completely speedfest right away from the start. I'm sure they'll have some plans for it.
I don't find that true in my experience. I don't incorporate jumps and I do fine. One just has to be able to sneak up on the ranged fighters.
And that's mostly about map design. Huge open rooms (30'x30' or bigger), long wide hallways, and little cover/obstacles makes non bunnyhopping / dodging / air curve / desyncing gameplay impossible.
The air dodging gameplay is much more exciting than getting sneaked up on or seeing the enemy use cover. I'd like to see a mix of both gameplay styles supported by proper map design.
As it is, all hallways in NS are wide and pretty long, there are rather enormous rooms (such that a skulk on one side has major difficulty getting to a marine on the other side), and little to zero cover/obstacles (such as thick pillars) in any rooms.
This is mostly because an Onos has to be able to fit everywhere, bases must have room to build buildings in, and with the HL1 engine, any kind of obstacle instantly stops blinking fades and leaping skulks and also is hell to wall walk over. With a new engine which can handle player-map collisions better, hopefully we'll see a map design which motivates a better balance between the two styles.
And again, netcode.
*****
I'll meet the middle ground, I think Air-Speed Strafing Speed Gain should go, but Air Movement can stay; for the Skulk only.
Obviously the Lerk should gain speed when diving and such, like any flight mechanics(I would think this would be obvious to most people). Just all the ground Lifeforms can't Air Turn besides the Skulk(unless the Fade's Blink is like a Superman move again unfortunatly; and only while the Fade is using Blink should he be able to turn in the air).
Maybe, I still think you can remove Air-Turning completly though, since every Lifeform has a Movement Ability to manuver/gain speed/dodge with.
Nonsense. Even I was able to take out bunny hopping. It's trivialy easy; you just renormalize the player speed to what it was before if the player is in the air, the speed has increased and the speed was already above max run speed. If a fool like me can figure out in an hour or two without hurting air control; with no prior experience with the code-base for goldsrc mods; then Flayra can do it, Valve can do it, any half-way competent person can do it.
<!--quoteo(post=1772809:date=May 29 2010, 05:09 PM:name=Jimyd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jimyd @ May 29 2010, 05:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1772809"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also if you know anything about the hitboxes and netcode of Valve games(lets take CSS/TF2 as an example), you would know how badly the hitboxes get skewed very quickly when doing any direction changing; especially when doing the Bunny Hop movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bunnyhopping towards a marine in NS1 is almost as bad as running straight at them; that's not what bunnyhopping is for, or good at.
The reason this blindingly obvious fix hasn't been implented years ago is because it doesn't work quite the way you expect: You will stop bunnyhopping, yes, but you will also stop all cases where a player has a legitimate reason to be moving faster than max run speed. For example: using leap, using blink, using a jetpack, falling long distances (you've just completely removed fall damage).
Your solution has fairly significant unintended consequences.
I know NS2 is going to be a different game from NS1 but can we not keep the things we love about NS1 in the new one? I for one am not to happy with the way NS2 is coming along and changing from the original concept of the game. If bhop were to be removed (not added) it would sadden me greatly.
Have you even ever tried to bhop? By that I mean read a tutorial and then practice on an open map by yourself?
Anyone can learn how to bhop, it just a matter of practice, and it absolutely DOES NOT take YEARS of practice, that's a gross exaggeration. If you were to practice for an hour everyday you would start picking it up within days or maybe weeks. Once you get the basics of it then you start getting better at it at a much quicker rate and within a month or 2 you'll be good enough at it that it will start improving your game.
The hardest part is getting the basics down and it's not even hard, you just need to put some actual effort into it. It's sad that some people aren't even willing to put a minimal amount of effort into learning one of the most epic movement techniques in 3D gaming. Once you start bhopping you will love the challenge and excitement it brings into your NS gaming experience and you will realize that it is one of the greatest components to NS.
I truly do not want to sound elitist but the people that are strongly opposed to bunny hopping are always those who cannot bhop or are unwilling to learn how to bhop and simple want that advantage taken away from other players because they are unable to have it themselves. This mentality, while understandable, does not drive the creation of good games. In fact it causes game makers to create games that are mediocre and too simple to interest people who desire intense and challenging gaming experiences where the limit of what you can do and achieve is endless.
Games exist so we can have fun. Good games are alot of fun. Good multiplayer games require good players to be fun. Good players require skill and experience to be good. So why do we want to make games that limit the skill and experience that players can achieve? I'll tell you why, it's because the bad players cry to the game makers that good players keep beating them and instead of getting better themselves they demand that the game makers limit how good other players can be.
Now I'm not a good NS player by any means, but I've been playing the game since 2003 and just this last start year starting making an effort to get better. Now that I can bhop and do alot of things I couldn't do before NS is a much much funner game. I understand the argument that having a high skill ceiling turns away new players but to be honest, those are the kind of players you don't want anyways. If they run away that quickly from a new game then they're too simple minded and/or too stubborn at learning to be any fun to play with anyways. Better to have a smaller community of decent players then a large community of idiots who don't ever learn or communicate and only dumb down the gaming experience for everyone ("Can I get a weld pleeeeeeese?!?!"). Com'on people, if you want to have the most fun gaming you gotta put some effort into it!
If any of you want to learn how to bhop I'd be glad to teach you, add me on steam friends.
<a href="http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971220598/" target="_blank">http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197971220598/</a>
Grapevine, any online game worth playing that is more than a few years old, you better damn well get rolled as a new player. NS is what 7 years old? Add that to the fact that bunnyhopping has been inherent on the HL1 engine since the beginning. So ya if you aren't bunnyhopping by now, then try learning the game as its played today.
Hell man I havent played Starcraft since it first came out. If I want to play multiplayer now (assuming people still do), I would need to learn maps, build orders, strategies, binds, etc in order to be successful. I would probably need to practice my "microing" or whatever for months until I stopped getting steamrolled by experienced players. I know this. I'm not on the Starcraft forums ###### about how its so hard, or for that matter trying to change the development of SC2.
They run up to railings jump straight up and down and forget to hit the forward key to land on the railing... Little things. Many of these people still need to learn basic FPS skills(not just bunny hop) as they can't comprehend being able to push multiple buttons and move the mouse at the same time in the everyday FPS environment. And if you can't even do that. Focus on those skills first. Once you get on the railing... Turn around and jump on it again until you get it just perfect. As there are a lot of railings ahahaha.
FPS games have skills beyond just bunnyhop folks. It isn't just bunny hopping. There is skulk dodging, fade dodging, and many other little aspects that you forget to practice on. Even in Counter-Strike, you learn different techniques of dodging people's aim. You can survive 30 bullets if you can screw up their aim a bit by faking them out.
Bunnyhopping isn't even nearly as hard as Dawk says it is. Assuming, you have experience with mouse+keyboard FPS you should be able to pick it up even faster.
I picked it up with just some quotes from in-game... I had no prior bunny hopping experience. "start with forward jump, release forward, move 40-45 degrees left with mouse while holding left strafe, jump again right as you land, 40-45 degrees right with mouse while holding right strafe" "after a bit of practice you will notice speed increase" "it helps if you bind it to your mouse wheel"
I already knew how to do it a little bit with the space bar just from everyday combat and enemy's skulks bunnyhopping at me going left and right strangely at a high rate of speed. And I can still do it pretty well with just that because mouse wheel was really awkward for me and still kind of is. But I do use the mouse wheel now. I don't use macros like some other people use. I believe that takes away from the game. But even beyond that, there are many other little things in the NS1 game that you can learn that are much simpler than that ... and it will make you a better player.
Dawk is right. I get killed by great players... I then learn how they did that. Often it is these un-skilled games where you just memorize the map and have a proper grenade placement and fire a few bullets to follow racking up the kills. Even people who can barely push a few buttons can look up and throw a grenade and get kills. That also makes the map dull and boring once you memorize it.
And on the other end ... Players will continue to run into the grenade as new players flock to the game and you will continue to own them but they are just horrible and new. After a while they will learn not to go within that grenades blast radius though and they will learn the map. But again... That is just memorizing the map. Boring.
Hence why NS is different. Sure you can learn the map. But the aspects are completely different. You get new games all the time on the same old maps.