Console mechanism in games tend to make me tire of them quickly. One notable case for example is Bulletstorm.. and it seems like DE3 is going that way. Of course you can never judge until you play when going either way, but the outlook is not good for me.
Linear gameplay doesn't have to be boring, so long as it's relevant and you keep the player engaged. The problem is, most games have this disconnect between player and avatar. It's not "I did killed that grunt" it's "Master Chief killed that grunt" (arbitrary character). So long as the player feels like it's them controlling the output of the game, then linear gameplay can still fake the feeling of non-linearity.
Though I can't think of any examples, so just take it with a pinch of salt.
<!--quoteo(post=1854948:date=Jun 21 2011, 08:04 AM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jun 21 2011, 08:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1854948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Console mechanism in games tend to make me tire of them quickly. One notable case for example is Bulletstorm.. and it seems like DE3 is going that way. Of course you can never judge until you play when going either way, but the outlook is not good for me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suggest you go and watch the 40 odd minute video of the leaked beta build before you form pass judgment on how it plays.
From what I watched there doesn't look to be any dumbing down and it looks to play a lot like the first did with the obvious upgrade in looks and game play mechanics (cover, blades for arms etc).
Also I'm convinced the VA for adam is secretly Christian Bale...
<!--quoteo(post=1855236:date=Jun 22 2011, 02:15 AM:name=Drake1)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Drake1 @ Jun 22 2011, 02:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1855236"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I suggest you go and watch the 40 odd minute video of the leaked beta build before you form pass judgment on how it plays.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll wait to play it rather than watch someone playing it. Thanks though.
<!--quoteo(post=1856371:date=Jun 25 2011, 09:18 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jun 25 2011, 09:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game owns, Game of the year 2011. There is no dispute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Year's not even halfway over. Hold yer horses boy.
<!--quoteo(post=1856371:date=Jun 25 2011, 07:18 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jun 25 2011, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856371"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Game owns, Game of the year 2011. There is no dispute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I remember Black Ops live date and people were interviewed in supermarkets in the UK saying Black Ops was the best game of the year and they know it, without playing it. I remember I laughed at them, just like I am right now.
<!--quoteo(post=1853942:date=Jun 17 2011, 05:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 17 2011, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still wish they hadn't gone with a prequel. Nobody gives a ###### about prequels. Give me a ###### sequel instead. Oh what's that, you've screwed up the story too bad to continue? MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE LESS ###### LOUSY AT YOUR JOB.
<a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_18813_5-reasons-hollywood-needs-to-stop-making-prequels.html" target="_blank">Most of this applies to video games as well.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really do a sequel given that I caused the singularity at the end of invisible war.
<!--quoteo(post=1856449:date=Jun 26 2011, 12:04 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 26 2011, 12:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856449"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't really do a sequel given that I caused the singularity at the end of invisible war.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1853942:date=Jun 17 2011, 06:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 17 2011, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh what's that, you've screwed up the story too bad to continue? MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE LESS ###### LOUSY AT YOUR JOB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1853940:date=Jun 17 2011, 06:34 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jun 17 2011, 06:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853940"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm expecting a little similar experience as I had with Bioshock. An extremely enjoyable game that has some very bright moments, but then again you also can't help thinking how much better it could've been if they didn't have to set the bar so damn low for console controls and modern accessibility.
At least in Bioshock the mouse control was sloppy, some parts felt like they just had to pack action and entertainment to situations that could've been way better with more patient buildups and in general there are just too many situations where you felt you were hand held guided too much. And quick time events too...
In DX 3's case they at least seem to highlight a lot of stuff quite aggressively (see the explosive breachable walls). I also don't like the constant XP signs popping up after each takedown and camera snapping between 1st and 3rd persons. Otherwise it doesn't seem bad at all and people seem to be very much enjoying it. I hate the preorder DLCs and bonuses though, so no way I'm doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Late reply FTW: The weird thing in Bioshock is that game became real fun at the very end. Once I had my weapons, cash and upgrades it all just clicked. 30 minutes later game ended. Even all consolisms were compensated by smoothness of everything else.
Oblivion was overhyped garbage. Skyrim will be no different.
From the 'pre-release demo' my impressions lead me to believe that Deus Ex HR is a true sequel to the greatest game of all time, and therefore GOTY 2011.
<!--quoteo(post=1853942:date=Jun 17 2011, 05:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 17 2011, 05:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh what's that, you've screwed up the story too bad to continue? MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE LESS ###### LOUSY AT YOUR JOB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So basically, make a story driven game, except never give it any meaningful progression or ending from which you cannot hit the reset button, in order to facilitate milking your incredibly dull, overcomplicated storyline for everything it's worth?
Oh yes, I can see how that would be an improvement.
<!--quoteo(post=1856628:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:04 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 27 2011, 05:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856628"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Or they could end the story. Authors do this all the time, because they're not ###### writers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They did.
You complained about it.
Deus ex 1 and 2 finished the original story, deus ex 3 begins a new one which helps to flesh out the world more, which is generally the entire point of a prequel.
<!--quoteo(post=1856536:date=Jun 26 2011, 07:20 PM:name=Supernorn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Supernorn @ Jun 26 2011, 07:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oblivion was overhyped garbage. Skyrim will be no different.
From the 'pre-release demo' my impressions lead me to believe that Deus Ex HR is a true sequel to the greatest game of all time, and therefore GOTY 2011.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Deus ex 1 and 2 finished the original story, deus ex 3 begins a new one which helps to flesh out the world more, which is generally the entire point of a prequel.
So what exactly are you whining about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Prequels. I've already established that. They're not "beginning a new story," they're rehashing the old one. It's still the same thing and I hate it. Read the article I linked.
Then what exactly do you want? You don't want a prequel because it is too similar, you don't want a sequel because you require definitive endings, so it seems to me like you want to play a different series.
If I play a game called deus ex, I expect it to be about the stuff deus ex is about, I expect it to be a first person multi-approach action game where the story is centred around the issues raised by the possibility of transhumanism, whether having humans control the evolution of our own species is a good or bad thing, and what sort of cool stuff might happen along the way.
So in the sense that it seems to be doing that, yes, it's a rehash, but it's got the name on the cover, so that's what I expect when I pay for it.
Human evolution, transhumanism, we already know all those things. That's what happened in Deus Ex. The prequel can't redefine anything because the future is set in stone. Plot-wise, prequels are a dead end.
What do I want? A spiritual successor to Deus Ex. Nobody with two brain cells wanted a System Shock 3. That's why we got Bioshock instead.
Barring that, a sequel to Deus Ex. Declare Invisible War non-canon. Throw that ###### out and start over. But no, instead we get a prequel. Excuse me while I throw up.
<!--quoteo(post=1856735:date=Jun 27 2011, 04:28 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 27 2011, 04:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What do I want? A spiritual successor to Deus Ex. Nobody with two brain cells wanted a System Shock 3. That's why we got Bioshock instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1856735:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:28 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 27 2011, 05:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Human evolution, transhumanism, we already know all those things. That's what happened in Deus Ex. The prequel can't redefine anything because the future is set in stone. Plot-wise, prequels are a dead end.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it isn't, most of the endings of both games are non canon, and the future in deus ex 1 is still very uncertain, essentially the only thing you know is that nothing is resolved for certain in the preque. Exactly as it isn't in either of the other games really given that they all have multiple endings, most of which just don't happen.
In a game like that the point is really not the overarching plot, the point is what you think about along the way, obviously being a transhumanist I am somewhat biased in favour of games with it as a plot point, but generally good games don't really tell you much with the plot, you figure it out for yourself along the way, the plot is just a device to make you think.
If you don't want a deus ex story, you don't want deus ex characters or setting, what do you want? The gameplay? You've got that, you really seem to be complaining for the sake of it.
If you liked bioshock, you would have liked system shock 3, because obviously the story doesn't matter to you, and the gameplay would have been largely the same.
<!--quoteo(post=1856737:date=Jun 27 2011, 04:41 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jun 27 2011, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856737"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you liked bioshock, you would have liked system shock 3, because obviously the story doesn't matter to you, and the gameplay would have been largely the same.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you played System Shock 3 then? Last I knew there wasn't a SS 3, so there is no way I'd know that I'd like it without playing it. You're saying dumb things again.
<!--quoteo(post=1856739:date=Jun 27 2011, 05:46 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Jun 27 2011, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1856739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you played System Shock 3 then? Last I knew there wasn't a SS 3, so there is no way I'd know that I'd like it without playing it. You're saying dumb things again.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Jesus Christ. The story matters to me, otherwise I wouldn't be having this discussion would I? It's disheartening that I have to do spell this out again.
The future is set in stone. No matter what the prequel does, at the beginning of Deus Ex we know what the world is, what the world looks like. The prequel cannot change any of that.
Nobody would have liked System Shock 3. There's a long <a href="http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?page_id=1103" target="_blank">article</a> on why that is. Read it, it's good.
I have stated before why I don't like prequels. For the final time: Read the article on <a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_18813_5-reasons-hollywood-needs-to-stop-making-prequels.html" target="_blank">why prequels suck.</a> This discussion is over.
I read that article a long time ago. I don't agree.
You always know how the story is going to go, in any game, or book, or film. The protagonist will be placed in a position of hardship, usually by a main antagonist, a clear figure we, as the audience, can feel dislike for, we are made to sympathise with the protagonist against his malefactor, and the protagonist is induced to try to right the wrongs which have been inflicted upon him. He will probably score a victory at some point, however the antagonist will likely respond and seemingly crush the protagonist's efforts, ultimately however the protagonist will succeed, likely due to an event of seemingly little significance earlier in the story, and the story will do us the courtesy of showing how the antagonist has been defeated so that we might undergo catharsis, and feel refreshed by the story.
Stories are not incredibly imaginative things, they all work the same way, their value comes not from new ones being told, because that never happens, you partake in a story because you want to hear it told well, it is the telling that is entertaining, not the story itself.
So, you know shodan is going to lose before you start system shock. You know ryan is going to lose before you start bioshock, you know that whoever the enemy of deus ex 3 is is going to lose before you start it, but you don't care, because you can find a story told well in any of these. Sometimes they throw unexpected variations in, like changing who the antagonist is half way through as in bioshock, but it doesn't really matter, it's still protagonist wants revenge and is having trouble getting it, what matters is that you want the protagonist to beat the antagonist, doesn't matter who they are. Sometimes stories do things like making the antagonist sympathetic, but they are still beaten at the end, maybe they are redeemed and don't die, but they have to lose, that is the important bit, the rest is just minor flavour.
So the future is always set in stone, if you care about that sort of thing, but that does not get in the way of good storytelling. It is the how that is important, not the what. I want to know <i>how</i> the world of deus ex 1 was created, I don't care that I already know it <i>was</i> created, because I already know that in my playthrough, the protagonist will beat up the bad transhuman man (I assume the enemy is going to have your super powers as well) and make everyone think slightly better of transhumans. I want to know how exactly I will go about that. That is the story. Villains exist to lose, that's what makes them villains, it's in the job description, the most effective villains are not the ones that lose least, they are the ones that you forget because they weren't good enough to use more than once, the good ones are the ones that continue to lose over and over but every time they make you hate and fear them, and feel cleansed when they are righteously beaten by the heroes. They are good villains because of how they play the part.
Comments
Though I can't think of any examples, so just take it with a pinch of salt.
I suggest you go and watch the 40 odd minute video of the leaked beta build before you form pass judgment on how it plays.
From what I watched there doesn't look to be any dumbing down and it looks to play a lot like the first did with the obvious upgrade in looks and game play mechanics (cover, blades for arms etc).
Also I'm convinced the VA for adam is secretly Christian Bale...
I'll wait to play it rather than watch someone playing it. Thanks though.
Year's not even halfway over. Hold yer horses boy.
I remember Black Ops live date and people were interviewed in supermarkets in the UK saying Black Ops was the best game of the year and they know it, without playing it. I remember I laughed at them, just like I am right now.
hahahahahahahahaha
Right ! RIGHT !
hahahahahahahahaha<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just reminded me of this bloke..
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/c9eGtyqz4gY"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/c9eGtyqz4gY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
(As a heads up, NSFW, has mild cartoon nudity and the S word)
<a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_18813_5-reasons-hollywood-needs-to-stop-making-prequels.html" target="_blank">Most of this applies to video games as well.</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't really do a sequel given that I caused the singularity at the end of invisible war.
<!--quoteo(post=1853942:date=Jun 17 2011, 06:36 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lolfighter @ Jun 17 2011, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1853942"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh what's that, you've screwed up the story too bad to continue? MAYBE YOU SHOULD BE LESS ###### LOUSY AT YOUR JOB.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least in Bioshock the mouse control was sloppy, some parts felt like they just had to pack action and entertainment to situations that could've been way better with more patient buildups and in general there are just too many situations where you felt you were hand held guided too much. And quick time events too...
In DX 3's case they at least seem to highlight a lot of stuff quite aggressively (see the explosive breachable walls). I also don't like the constant XP signs popping up after each takedown and camera snapping between 1st and 3rd persons. Otherwise it doesn't seem bad at all and people seem to be very much enjoying it. I hate the preorder DLCs and bonuses though, so no way I'm doing that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Late reply FTW: The weird thing in Bioshock is that game became real fun at the very end. Once I had my weapons, cash and upgrades it all just clicked. 30 minutes later game ended. Even all consolisms were compensated by smoothness of everything else.
From the 'pre-release demo' my impressions lead me to believe that Deus Ex HR is a true sequel to the greatest game of all time, and therefore GOTY 2011.
So basically, make a story driven game, except never give it any meaningful progression or ending from which you cannot hit the reset button, in order to facilitate milking your incredibly dull, overcomplicated storyline for everything it's worth?
Oh yes, I can see how that would be an improvement.
They did.
You complained about it.
Deus ex 1 and 2 finished the original story, deus ex 3 begins a new one which helps to flesh out the world more, which is generally the entire point of a prequel.
So what exactly are you whining about?
From the 'pre-release demo' my impressions lead me to believe that Deus Ex HR is a true sequel to the greatest game of all time, and therefore GOTY 2011.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought it was a prequel?
You complained about it.
Deus ex 1 and 2 finished the original story, deus ex 3 begins a new one which helps to flesh out the world more, which is generally the entire point of a prequel.
So what exactly are you whining about?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prequels. I've already established that. They're not "beginning a new story," they're rehashing the old one. It's still the same thing and I hate it. Read the article I linked.
If I play a game called deus ex, I expect it to be about the stuff deus ex is about, I expect it to be a first person multi-approach action game where the story is centred around the issues raised by the possibility of transhumanism, whether having humans control the evolution of our own species is a good or bad thing, and what sort of cool stuff might happen along the way.
So in the sense that it seems to be doing that, yes, it's a rehash, but it's got the name on the cover, so that's what I expect when I pay for it.
What do I want? A spiritual successor to Deus Ex. Nobody with two brain cells wanted a System Shock 3. That's why we got Bioshock instead.
Barring that, a sequel to Deus Ex. Declare Invisible War non-canon. Throw that ###### out and start over. But no, instead we get a prequel. Excuse me while I throw up.
Truth, and Bioshock was worth it.
No it isn't, most of the endings of both games are non canon, and the future in deus ex 1 is still very uncertain, essentially the only thing you know is that nothing is resolved for certain in the preque. Exactly as it isn't in either of the other games really given that they all have multiple endings, most of which just don't happen.
In a game like that the point is really not the overarching plot, the point is what you think about along the way, obviously being a transhumanist I am somewhat biased in favour of games with it as a plot point, but generally good games don't really tell you much with the plot, you figure it out for yourself along the way, the plot is just a device to make you think.
If you don't want a deus ex story, you don't want deus ex characters or setting, what do you want? The gameplay? You've got that, you really seem to be complaining for the sake of it.
If you liked bioshock, you would have liked system shock 3, because obviously the story doesn't matter to you, and the gameplay would have been largely the same.
Have you played System Shock 3 then? Last I knew there wasn't a SS 3, so there is no way I'd know that I'd like it without playing it. You're saying dumb things again.
You aren't reading the posts.
The future is set in stone. No matter what the prequel does, at the beginning of Deus Ex we know what the world is, what the world looks like. The prequel cannot change any of that.
Nobody would have liked System Shock 3. There's a long <a href="http://gillen.cream.org/wordpress_html/?page_id=1103" target="_blank">article</a> on why that is. Read it, it's good.
I have stated before why I don't like prequels. For the final time: Read the article on <a href="http://www.cracked.com/article_18813_5-reasons-hollywood-needs-to-stop-making-prequels.html" target="_blank">why prequels suck.</a> This discussion is over.
You always know how the story is going to go, in any game, or book, or film. The protagonist will be placed in a position of hardship, usually by a main antagonist, a clear figure we, as the audience, can feel dislike for, we are made to sympathise with the protagonist against his malefactor, and the protagonist is induced to try to right the wrongs which have been inflicted upon him. He will probably score a victory at some point, however the antagonist will likely respond and seemingly crush the protagonist's efforts, ultimately however the protagonist will succeed, likely due to an event of seemingly little significance earlier in the story, and the story will do us the courtesy of showing how the antagonist has been defeated so that we might undergo catharsis, and feel refreshed by the story.
Stories are not incredibly imaginative things, they all work the same way, their value comes not from new ones being told, because that never happens, you partake in a story because you want to hear it told well, it is the telling that is entertaining, not the story itself.
So, you know shodan is going to lose before you start system shock. You know ryan is going to lose before you start bioshock, you know that whoever the enemy of deus ex 3 is is going to lose before you start it, but you don't care, because you can find a story told well in any of these. Sometimes they throw unexpected variations in, like changing who the antagonist is half way through as in bioshock, but it doesn't really matter, it's still protagonist wants revenge and is having trouble getting it, what matters is that you want the protagonist to beat the antagonist, doesn't matter who they are. Sometimes stories do things like making the antagonist sympathetic, but they are still beaten at the end, maybe they are redeemed and don't die, but they have to lose, that is the important bit, the rest is just minor flavour.
So the future is always set in stone, if you care about that sort of thing, but that does not get in the way of good storytelling. It is the how that is important, not the what. I want to know <i>how</i> the world of deus ex 1 was created, I don't care that I already know it <i>was</i> created, because I already know that in my playthrough, the protagonist will beat up the bad transhuman man (I assume the enemy is going to have your super powers as well) and make everyone think slightly better of transhumans. I want to know how exactly I will go about that. That is the story. Villains exist to lose, that's what makes them villains, it's in the job description, the most effective villains are not the ones that lose least, they are the ones that you forget because they weren't good enough to use more than once, the good ones are the ones that continue to lose over and over but every time they make you hate and fear them, and feel cleansed when they are righteously beaten by the heroes. They are good villains because of how they play the part.