X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
Seeing that they have the sandman equipped isn't a problem. Seeing when they're going to use the baseball is the problem, because it has no warm up animation until it hits you, which is kind of annoying. At a relatively close range it's impossible to counter.
That said I guess we'll eventually just treat anyone with the bat equipped as a potential stun-user. I just don't like the idea of not being able to tell if the person is going to hit you with the bat *or* paralyse you.
well since its 50% dmg reduction on non stunned targets and is weak enough as it is if they arent going to try and stun you i highly doubt theres much of a threat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701608:date=Feb 27 2009, 09:57 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Feb 27 2009, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701608"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well since its 50% dmg reduction on non stunned targets and is weak enough as it is if they arent going to try and stun you i highly doubt theres much of a threat <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> that was removed...
I just played a few games and the sandman was, in general, merely annoying. I really am digging the new spy buffs. The weapon thing is mildly useful, but the new backstab code w/ faster anim really rocks. Its much rarer now that I feel I get gypped on backstabs. I can now prefer medics to heavies as targets with a much higher success rate, and hell I even took out a few (moving) scouts (and a lot of still ones, apparently trying to get the "gun down" achievement).
So after more playing I'm going to go ahead and say the sandman really is pretty unbalanced. It's not as obvious when the attacker uses the FaN, but with the normal scattergun you have enough ammo to kill any other class before the stun wears off if you are even half decent (3 point blank shots will kill an overhealed heavy). This really isn't fair as all the other 1 hit kill weapons (sniper shot, backstab) give at least some warning before you are killed.
AbraWould you kindlyJoin Date: 2003-08-17Member: 19870Members
<!--quoteo(post=1701677:date=Mar 1 2009, 02:12 AM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Mar 1 2009, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701677"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(sniper shot, backstab) give at least some warning before you are killed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol wut?
But seriously, I'm partial to the idea of nerfing the sandman, I love using it.
But seriously, I'm partial to the idea of nerfing the sandman, I love using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah that doesn't make sense.
There are two things here. 1. It's very easy to mis-aim the baseball. 2. If you're not alone, your teammates should keep the scout at bay.
Do you guys, who are judging the weapon, only have experience on the receiving end of the baseball? I thought it seemed pretty overpowered until I actually tried it and saw how hard it is to actually hit people, and how much not having a double jump sucks.
<!--quoteo(post=1701685:date=Mar 1 2009, 06:15 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Mar 1 2009, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701685"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah that doesn't make sense.
There are two things here. 1. It's very easy to mis-aim the baseball. 2. If you're not alone, your teammates should keep the scout at bay. Do you guys, who are judging the weapon, only have experience on the receiving end of the baseball? I thought it seemed pretty overpowered until I actually tried it and saw how hard it is to actually hit people, and how much not having a double jump sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree with both points 1 and 2, and I also agree that it seems much more overpowered when on the receiving end to actually using it.
I'm not sure what makes it so hard to aim, but it is. I just unlocked it finally and it's a lot tougher than I imagined. It's actually significantly harder to aim than the Flaregun.
However, it's very difficult to miss the Heavy, or any other class that needs to be still/slow to perform its principal duties; this includes the Heavy, Sniper and Engy. Soldiers are quite hard to hit, as are Pyros and Demos. Overall I'd say the hit ratio is lower than 50% when you start using it.
If you're pissed off with people using it, jumping around upredictably makes it a lot harder to hit you. Just don't straightline or stand still for even short moments. This still doesn't solve the problem that you cannot judge when it's about to be used. The animation for a Scout with a ball is the same as one simply holding out the bat even if they don't have a ball. There really needs to be some way of telling if they have a ball to throw.
Also, not having double-jump, even with the FAN makes the Scout pretty weak. Everything you're used to doing naturally, all of the shortcuts, escape routes and general mobility is not there suddenly. So you'll find yourself having to go out of your way to avoid fall damage and even wasting a FAN shot just to get where you could usually get with a double-jump (and the FAN shot isn't as good as a double-jump either).
I think this blog post sums up the other half of the problem, which about loss of control, or as the writer says, the issue of "waiting to Die": <a href="http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/" target="_blank">http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2...-crowd-control/</a>
As an aside, to clear things up: the Sandman ball automatically regenerates after roughly 10 seconds (the same time ammo crates and medpacks take to respawn). You don't lose it completely if you miss and cannot retrieve the ball, or if you successfully hit someone with it, but it's true that it cannot be spammed (apart from rare situations like I had once today where I was just repeatedly stunning someone and batting them at point blank range until they died).
Yeah, the "crowd control" annoys me immensely and shouldn't be in there. Natasha was bad enough, and she only interferes with (rather than completely prevent) your movement while not even touching your ability to shoot back. I also disagree with the balancing: As Natural Selection's development well illustrates, not everything can be balanced simply by giving it a strong drawback. I'm referring to the nuke, here. Don't know what I'm talking about? That's because it never was put into the game because it could not be balanced. If you need further examples, say so and I will tell you of the Bull###### Cannon.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1701696:date=Mar 1 2009, 09:55 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Mar 1 2009, 09:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701696"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As an aside, to clear things up: the Sandman ball automatically regenerates after roughly 10 seconds (the same time ammo crates and medpacks take to respawn).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? 10? I thought it was 20.
It is able to be changed serverside. One server I was in had it set to 0, which was ridiculous.
The freezing effect of the sandman is just too powerful for such a fast passed game. It's almost always certain death because the freeze time is just so long. It's essentially a 1hit kill weapon with the bonus of being able to stop an Uber. How is this fair? Also, it's easier to aim the sandman if you are solid with the syringe gun, their arches/trajectories are similar. After only a bit of practice I'am able to hit people reliably to the point that I started feeling guilty. It's hilariously effective vs pyros.
<!--quoteo(post=1701720:date=Mar 1 2009, 09:57 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Mar 1 2009, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701720"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, it's easier to aim the sandman if you are solid with the syringe gun, their arches/trajectories are similar. After only a bit of practice I'am able to hit people reliably to the point that I started feeling guilty. It's hilariously effective vs pyros.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No, I'm pretty solid with the Syringe and it's not the same at all. With the Syringe gun you lead your shots almost all of the time, with the Sandman you have to force yourself not to lead because it's so fast, which sounds as if it should be easier but I don't find it is.
Both FAN and Sandman are basically unlocks to screw up their weakness against pyros, it's downright ridiculous. At least the FAN sucks against heavies. Oh and pyros can fwoosch the balls if you can time it but then again, it's not likely.
What weakness against pyros? Sure, if the pyro catches you at short range you're screwed, but that's just how pyros are. As long as you're out of range of the flamethrower (and remember that you run faster than a pyro), there's little to fear from pyros.
I've always torched scouts or at very least set them on fire unless charging at em in an open field. Now, they can push you back so the flames wont reach those extra meters you need to lick em with it. Neither can you retreat behind a corner as they will simply juggle you around. The sandman + FAN (or regular) allows them to pretty instantaneously kill you right of the bat with two half arsed shots.. Meanwhile soldiers need two perfect point blank shots before they die.
<!--quoteo(post=1701759:date=Mar 2 2009, 02:43 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Mar 2 2009, 02:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701759"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How goes the competitive scene with stunballs?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Currently allowed (in Europe anway) but there's a big debate. Most of the negative stuff isn't that it's too easy to use but it's not liking the idea of nullifying the uber.
Personally I'm all for getting soft counters for uber. Whilst I appreciate the mind games and teamwork needed to build and unleash an uber, I dislike how powerful it is if one side has one and the other doesn't. Skill mostly goes out the window and it's mostly a case of the ubered demoman rushing in blindly and unloading all his ammo. I'm not saying it's totally skill-less but it's a mini game I don't like. The scouts in my team don't use it, I think mostly because of losing double jump (you've got no chance of reclaiming the spire on badlands if your scouts can't jump from balcony to spire).
I consider myself a gamer. As such, "suspension of disbelief" is my middle name. I readily accept the existence of some sort of shimmering field in team colours that can render a medic and his target utterly impervious to all damage.
But this, this is too much. A critting heavy outputs upwards of 500 damage per second, and the übercharged player doesn't care. A direct hit by a crit rocket does 270 damage. The übercharged player takes one of these square in the face and LAUGHS. But a BASEBALL? A ###### BASEBALL? Seriously, what is this ######? This, my fellow forumgoers, this is a complete brainfart. It's wildly inconsistent, and it makes an already horrendously badly designed weapon even worse.
I also have problems with the idea that this can outright stop an uber. I mean sure, the SGs, demo grenades, and maybe even Natasha (can anyone confirm?), can bounce the uber around and reduce or eliminate its effectiveness, but the idea that the ubered player can be totally incapacitated seems like too much. Though honestly, I've never actually seen it done.
rofl those new quotes are awesome <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1701786:date=Mar 2 2009, 02:28 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Mar 2 2009, 02:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I consider myself a gamer. As such, "suspension of disbelief" is my middle name. I readily accept the existence of some sort of shimmering field in team colours that can render a medic and his target utterly impervious to all damage.
But this, this is too much. A critting heavy outputs upwards of 500 damage per second, and the übercharged player doesn't care. A direct hit by a crit rocket does 270 damage. The übercharged player takes one of these square in the face and LAUGHS. But a BASEBALL? A ###### BASEBALL? Seriously, what is this ######? This, my fellow forumgoers, this is a complete brainfart. It's wildly inconsistent, and it makes an already horrendously badly designed weapon even worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's like in Dune how the shields can protect you from guns and fast knives and stuff but when something slips in slowly it goes right through. The uber is clearly an antibullet/explosion/fire shield that has no relation to baseballs.
Bull######. The baseball moves faster than rockets or grenades do. The über shield blocks everything, including rather extraordinary attacks like spades or bottles. But a baseball still goes through. It's stupid and also stupid. AND it is ludicrous from a balance perspective. Übercharged heavies already have enough issues as it is. Now, as soon as they spin up they get crowd-controlled.
Actually no I changed my mind, the baseball is coated with a quick-acting anaesthetic in aerosol form. When the baseball impacts someone, the anaesthetic is rapidly dispersed and inhaled, causing a fast but brief incapacitation. The puff of aerosol is very small which is why it only hits one dude, and of course it disperses quickly so it doesn't last long or linger or anything.
The Pyro is so frustrated at being unable to speak with his fellow teammates that he resorts to imitating them in hopes that it will result in lasting friendships. They get stunned by the ball, Pyro figures he might as well get stunned by the ball unless he wants to make everyone even more mad at him. It's not like he could defend himself against slander, what with his muffled voice and everything. He just tries to get by and offend as few people as possible, and if that requires pretending to be stunned for a few seconds, then so be it. Small price to pay if he makes some friends.
You forgot to explain how the stun gets longer if the ball is in the air longer. What's your explanation for that? The aerosol gets more potent from the rushing air?
To be more accurate, the chemical compound is actually a mixture of two compounds, for safety's sake. It only becomes potent when the chemical on the bat meets the chemical on the ball; this is why the Scout himself is not stunned when he handles the bat or the ball. When the ball has been in the air for a longer period of time, the chemicals have more time to mix and become more potent. There is, of course, an upper limit on how much they will mix, because there's only so much of each chemical, which is why the stun time is capped.
Comments
That said I guess we'll eventually just treat anyone with the bat equipped as a potential stun-user. I just don't like the idea of not being able to tell if the person is going to hit you with the bat *or* paralyse you.
that was removed...
Lol wut?
But seriously, I'm partial to the idea of nerfing the sandman, I love using it.
But seriously, I'm partial to the idea of nerfing the sandman, I love using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that doesn't make sense.
There are two things here.
1. It's very easy to mis-aim the baseball.
2. If you're not alone, your teammates should keep the scout at bay.
Do you guys, who are judging the weapon, only have experience on the receiving end of the baseball? I thought it seemed pretty overpowered until I actually tried it and saw how hard it is to actually hit people, and how much not having a double jump sucks.
There are two things here.
1. It's very easy to mis-aim the baseball.
2. If you're not alone, your teammates should keep the scout at bay.
Do you guys, who are judging the weapon, only have experience on the receiving end of the baseball? I thought it seemed pretty overpowered until I actually tried it and saw how hard it is to actually hit people, and how much not having a double jump sucks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I agree with both points 1 and 2, and I also agree that it seems much more overpowered when on the receiving end to actually using it.
I'm not sure what makes it so hard to aim, but it is. I just unlocked it finally and it's a lot tougher than I imagined. It's actually significantly harder to aim than the Flaregun.
However, it's very difficult to miss the Heavy, or any other class that needs to be still/slow to perform its principal duties; this includes the Heavy, Sniper and Engy. Soldiers are quite hard to hit, as are Pyros and Demos. Overall I'd say the hit ratio is lower than 50% when you start using it.
If you're pissed off with people using it, jumping around upredictably makes it a lot harder to hit you. Just don't straightline or stand still for even short moments. This still doesn't solve the problem that you cannot judge when it's about to be used. The animation for a Scout with a ball is the same as one simply holding out the bat even if they don't have a ball. There really needs to be some way of telling if they have a ball to throw.
Also, not having double-jump, even with the FAN makes the Scout pretty weak. Everything you're used to doing naturally, all of the shortcuts, escape routes and general mobility is not there suddenly. So you'll find yourself having to go out of your way to avoid fall damage and even wasting a FAN shot just to get where you could usually get with a double-jump (and the FAN shot isn't as good as a double-jump either).
I think this blog post sums up the other half of the problem, which about loss of control, or as the writer says, the issue of "waiting to Die":
<a href="http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/" target="_blank">http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2...-crowd-control/</a>
As an aside, to clear things up: the Sandman ball automatically regenerates after roughly 10 seconds (the same time ammo crates and medpacks take to respawn). You don't lose it completely if you miss and cannot retrieve the ball, or if you successfully hit someone with it, but it's true that it cannot be spammed (apart from rare situations like I had once today where I was just repeatedly stunning someone and batting them at point blank range until they died).
I also disagree with the balancing: As Natural Selection's development well illustrates, not everything can be balanced simply by giving it a strong drawback. I'm referring to the nuke, here. Don't know what I'm talking about? That's because it never was put into the game because it could not be balanced. If you need further examples, say so and I will tell you of the Bull###### Cannon.
Really? 10? I thought it was 20.
It is able to be changed serverside. One server I was in had it set to 0, which was ridiculous.
How goes the competitive scene with stunballs?
Currently allowed (in Europe anway) but there's a big debate. Most of the negative stuff isn't that it's too easy to use but it's not liking the idea of nullifying the uber.
Personally I'm all for getting soft counters for uber. Whilst I appreciate the mind games and teamwork needed to build and unleash an uber, I dislike how powerful it is if one side has one and the other doesn't. Skill mostly goes out the window and it's mostly a case of the ubered demoman rushing in blindly and unloading all his ammo. I'm not saying it's totally skill-less but it's a mini game I don't like. The scouts in my team don't use it, I think mostly because of losing double jump (you've got no chance of reclaiming the spire on badlands if your scouts can't jump from balcony to spire).
But this, this is too much. A critting heavy outputs upwards of 500 damage per second, and the übercharged player doesn't care. A direct hit by a crit rocket does 270 damage. The übercharged player takes one of these square in the face and LAUGHS. But a BASEBALL? A ###### BASEBALL? Seriously, what is this ######? This, my fellow forumgoers, this is a complete brainfart. It's wildly inconsistent, and it makes an already horrendously badly designed weapon even worse.
But this, this is too much. A critting heavy outputs upwards of 500 damage per second, and the übercharged player doesn't care. A direct hit by a crit rocket does 270 damage. The übercharged player takes one of these square in the face and LAUGHS. But a BASEBALL? A ###### BASEBALL? Seriously, what is this ######? This, my fellow forumgoers, this is a complete brainfart. It's wildly inconsistent, and it makes an already horrendously badly designed weapon even worse.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's like in Dune how the shields can protect you from guns and fast knives and stuff but when something slips in slowly it goes right through. The uber is clearly an antibullet/explosion/fire shield that has no relation to baseballs.
Makes perfect sense.
(Oh, and to play the game a little further: Why does it work on the pyro then?)