Well, since we're going with anecdotal evidence: I'd say I see at least 1/3rd of pyros (including me) use the regular flamethrower over the backburner. Shotgun/flare gun, about 50/50 I'd say.
The airblast, derided as a joke by some, is PERFECT for screwing soldiers over with. You can bounce übered enemies around, which tends to screw up their übercharge quite a bit. You can blow stickies away, you can even reflect pipebombs. And that time when we were defending stage three of Dustbowl with five seconds left on the clock and the blues were rushing the point with nobody but me (as medic) alive to defend it? I had an übercharge ready, so I popped it and jumped on the point, confident that we'd win now that I could block the point. Then a pyro airblasted me off the point and the blues capped it before I could get back on it. The collective groan of dismay was incredible.
The shotgun is great for finishing off fleeing enemies, or for damaging enemies that are out of range. Better damage and easier to hit with than the flare gun.
The axtinguisher, I agree, is just flat out better than the regular axe. Though considering how little I ever used the regular axe, that doesn't necessarily say much. But why would I even NEED a backburner with this baby? If I can ambush the enemy, then I can also simply set them ablaze with a quick puft of flame, then switch to the axtinguisher and crit the everloving ###### out of them. 195 damage, baby. Ain't nothing but a heavy or an overhealed soldier gonna survive THAT!
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2009
Read something about not seeing a level 1 pyro weapon user? Well I don't like any of the level 2 weapons except for the axtinguisher.
Also I don't playe the pyro as an ambush class, I play him as a hit and run class. I need airblast to defelct projectiles and shotgun to do damage to people when retreating back to a dispenser. Backburner and flaregun are of no use to me since I rarely see the enemies back and the flaregun is slow as poop (finishing someone off with shotty is just so much better)
-for my playstyle at least <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Also airblast is ownage versus medic uber combo (just blow away the medic and no more uber <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
<!--quoteo(post=1700733:date=Feb 18 2009, 04:43 AM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 18 2009, 04:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also also: Comments on the recent demo-man changes? If I understand it correctly (which I might not), any stickies within 512 units of the demoman won't deal full damage until 5 seconds after they've been spawned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope. Graph on their bloggoblag explains it - stickies fired and detonated within 512 units of the demoman still deal <i>above</i> 100% damage, but now it scales up to 120% (115%?) instead of the usual 150% other classes get. Until 5 seconds have passed, after which they deal their normal damage regardless of distance placed at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just pop up the server browser, type achievement...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already addressed this: Why should I have to? FFS, if whatever valve is trying to accomplish by tying unlockables to achievements is so easy to bypass, why bother doing it at all!?
Edit: You can stop with the pyro anecdotes. I already admitted that since I don't play the class myself my assumption was based on what I've seen in the servers I play in (very few regulars using the standard thrower, absolutely no one using the shotgun or axe), and were apparently not as accurate as I thought.
I'm thinking that might be the source of disagreement here. Different strategies are dominant in different server communities. Maybe its because I only play on 32 player servers? Maybe the average skill level on my servers is better or worse than on yours at the times we play? Either way, I've conceded the point.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1700768:date=Feb 18 2009, 12:34 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 18 2009, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700768"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I already addressed this: Why should I have to? FFS, if whatever valve is trying to accomplish by tying unlockables to achievements is so easy to bypass, why bother doing it at all!?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually my point was that it isn't perfect, but it isn't that bad.
Some people LIKE going for the unlocks, some don't.
Those that like it can futz around and have fun with it. Those that don't can go spend 10 mins and get them all.
I expect that I will actually get the scout achievements at my own time once the scout rush has died down. It is kinda nice because the server I play on can be filled with regs alone, and we tend to be a relatively decent group of players, so I expect I will actually get some scout time in.
I find the achievements fun. I don't go after them, but it's fun to have something pop up that tells me that I managed to take over 1000 damage in one life. And I've never been hyped enough on a specific unlock that it just HAD TO BE MINE. The only real annoyance is the inevitable run on whatever class just got shiny stuff like it was Tickle Me Elmo at yuletide 1996, and on the server I regularly play on even that quickly subsides (because there will usually be plenty of experienced players who will wholly dedicate themselves to playing in ways that make that specific class useless).
<!--quoteo(post=1700781:date=Feb 18 2009, 06:55 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 18 2009, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700781"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I find the achievements fun. I don't go after them, but it's fun to have something pop up that tells me that I managed to take over 1000 damage in one life. And I've never been hyped enough on a specific unlock that it just HAD TO BE MINE. The only real annoyance is the inevitable run on whatever class just got shiny stuff like it was Tickle Me Elmo at yuletide 1996, and on the server I regularly play on even that quickly subsides (because there will usually be plenty of experienced players who will wholly dedicate themselves to playing in ways that make that specific class useless).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gha, dont remind me.
When the engi gets its update we will see really, really, really static gameplay on every ###### single server.
And I will finally get my demoman (destroy 1000 sentry guns) achievement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1700878:date=Feb 19 2009, 12:34 PM:name=Faskalia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Faskalia @ Feb 19 2009, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700878"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And I will finally get my demoman (destroy 1000 sentry guns) achievement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh, quite. I expect to finally get the uber-scout one when this pack comes out.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
From the TF2 blog: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You Have Failed Me February 18, 2009 - TF Announcer
It saddens me that despite my best efforts to instruct and better you, some of you insist on finding new ways to fail.
We have sounded the alert and released a quick fix for an exploit that some unscrupulous players were using to wield items on invalid classes. I have considered an appropriate punishment for the good-for-nothings responsible for this horrendous breach of conduct. Death, of course - but death is too good for disappointments such as these. Instead, their unlockable items have been removed for a month.
To the majority of you who did not see fit to cheat, you have my congratulations: I await the countless other ways you will inevitably disappoint me in the future.
Pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not how you treat your customers, not even the ones that exploit glitches in your game. The players are not the developer's kids, it is not the developer's place to scold/punish them. -.-'
I think they were trying to strike humor with that post, but it just seems very unprofessional to me.
Are you saying they should have done nothing to punish them? Do they not have an obligation to their other paying customers to discourage cheating? They're probably lucky they didn't get their accounts VACed.
<!--quoteo(post=1700895:date=Feb 19 2009, 10:46 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 19 2009, 10:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The players are not the developer's kids, it is not the developer's place to scold/punish them. -.-'<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By that logic, any anti-cheat software built into games is "wrong".
EDIT - Beaten, by ages apparently. I didn't notice the other page <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
EDIT2 - Regarding the bat, will it have an alternate fire mode or something (since it has both melee and the new ranged attack)? If so, it'll be the first weapon to have an alternate fire in TF2 which actually damages something on its own.
The only issue I see with this are people who heard of the exploit, went "whoa, really?", made an empty listenserver (or invited a few friends), messed around with it a bit going "lololol," then went back and played the game properly on public servers. Those people PROBABLY got punished along with the guilty, and that's unjustified.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1700903:date=Feb 19 2009, 06:31 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 19 2009, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700903"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only issue I see with this are people who heard of the exploit, went "whoa, really?", made an empty listenserver (or invited a few friends), messed around with it a bit going "lololol," then went back and played the game properly on public servers. Those people PROBABLY got punished along with the guilty, and that's unjustified.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. These aren't people who downloaded programs to actively cheat (i'm okay with VAC banning those people). All they are doing is exploiting a bug the developers failed to find before releasing the update. They may not like it, but this is a part of their game.
It is human nature to be curious.
Not only that, but the glitch has no lasting impact on the game after they release a patch. This is a preemptive argument against questioning the punishment of people who dupe items in other games. There is no economy of the game to screw up, and not only that, apparently they have ways of detecting who did it. If it gave any lasting advantage, they could have just removed it like they did with that achievement unlock console command they forgot to take out before releasing the patch.
Just to clarify, I didn't argue that the punishment didn't fit the crime. I have no qualms that those who used exploits like these on live servers got punished. It's those who potentially got unjustly punished I feel sorry for.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1700909:date=Feb 19 2009, 07:09 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 19 2009, 07:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700909"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just to clarify, I didn't argue that the punishment didn't fit the crime. I have no qualms that those who used exploits like these on live servers got punished. It's those who potentially got unjustly punished I feel sorry for.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I feel that the majority of people, on live servers or not, only were trying it out for curiosities sake.
Do we even know if they punished people who didn't do it on public servers? I don't blame them for this choice, I would expect to get VAC banned even if I was "Just trying out" a wall hack. They used an exploit and got lightly punished for it, big deal.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1700895:date=Feb 19 2009, 05:46 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 19 2009, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the TF2 blog: Pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not how you treat your customers, not even the ones that exploit glitches in your game. The players are not the developer's kids, it is not the developer's place to scold/punish them. -.-'
I think they were trying to strike humor with that post, but it just seems very unprofessional to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. I probably would have tried it on a listen server if I had known about it just to see what interesting combinations I could come up with. TF2 is not an MMO, it's not like these exploits "ruined the in game economy" or caused "permanent territory shifts".
And comparing it to a cheat is not accurate. It's an exploit not a cheat. They might as well go ban all of the people on achievement servers then.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's an exploit not a cheat.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Semantics. I can't claim to know how valve is deciding who to punish, but they very well may only be punishing people who used the exploit in public. I have no reason to believe differently until someone shows otherwise.
Besides, what kind of punishment are we talking about here? A month without precious unlockables. Thats barely punishment at all, especially if your primary class doesn't even have unlockables yet. A slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isnt. And writing it from the perspective of the announcer was funny.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1700915:date=Feb 19 2009, 07:59 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 19 2009, 07:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do we even know if they punished people who didn't do it on public servers? I don't blame them for this choice, I would expect to get VAC banned even if I was "Just trying out" a wall hack. They used an exploit and got lightly punished for it, big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But there's my point. You can't try out a wall hack without downloading an external program. An exploit is a part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700918:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:02 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 19 2009, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is not an MMO, it's not like these exploits "ruined the in game economy" or caused "permanent territory shifts".
And comparing it to a cheat is not accurate. It's an exploit not a cheat. They might as well go ban all of the people on achievement servers then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Great post, I agree 100%. Achievement servers are actually worse in terms of long term damage to the game than trying out an exploit that has no effect beyond the current game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700920:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Semantics. I can't claim to know how valve is deciding who to punish, but they very well may only be punishing people who used the exploit in public. I have no reason to believe differently until someone shows otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I definitely disagree here. I would assume that, given the blog post, they wouldn't bother to make this distinction. Their stance is that those who used an exploit deserve to be punished. My stance is that Valve screwed up by not testing enough to find the exploit before releasing the patch to the wild, and the players did what players do. They got curious, and they played.
<!--quoteo(post=1700920:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides, what kind of punishment are we talking about here? A month without precious unlockables. Thats barely punishment at all, especially if your primary class doesn't even have unlockables yet. A slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isnt. And writing it from the perspective of the announcer was funny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->In that case, I am fining you $5.00 for disagreeing with me. It's barely a punishment--merely a slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isn't.
The size of the punishment should not matter. Valve should not be punishing players because they (Valve) had a bug in their game. If there was any lasting advantage, as there was with the previous unlockable exploit, that should be removed. Past that, they (Valve) should just patch the bug and get on with it.
<!--quoteo(post=1700911:date=Feb 20 2009, 01:32 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 20 2009, 01:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I feel that the majority of people, on live servers or not, only were trying it out for curiosities sake.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Long ago, I was an admin for a Counter-Strike server. We banned a guy for wallhacking. He appealed, saying he was only trying it out. We laughed. Then we banned him HARDER.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Achievement servers are actually worse in terms of long term damage to the game than trying out an exploit that has no effect beyond the current game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Really? Cause I spent a while in this thread being told exactly the opposite. That having to grind for unlockables was not a big deal especially because of the achievement servers. And further more, that the unlockables offered no significant tactical advantage from the standard weapons. If you disagreed, you didn't voice it, so what is your basis for claiming that they are more damaging than blatant cheating?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In that case, I am fining you $5.00 for disagreeing with me. It's barely a punishment--merely a slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And what terms of service have I agreed to that allows you to do so? You agreed to play their game by their rules, they have determined this exploit to be against the rules and have punished you for it. A slap on the wrist barely worth mentioning. Hell, it seems that lately the unlockables have been glitchy for people anyways.
Tell me honestly: Are you upset because you really think this is a big problem, or are upset because you got pinched?
<!--quoteo(post=1700924:date=Feb 20 2009, 04:00 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 20 2009, 04:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My stance is that Valve screwed up by not testing enough to find the exploit before releasing the patch to the wild, and the players did what players do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While I don't agree much with the punishment, I don't think it's realistic to expect playtesters to find every bug and exploit.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1700927:date=Feb 19 2009, 10:14 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 19 2009, 10:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700927"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Long ago, I was an admin for a Counter-Strike server. We banned a guy for wallhacking. He appealed, saying he was only trying it out. We laughed. Then we banned him HARDER.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't have a problem with server admins banning/kicking people for exploiting/cheating. I can't exactly figure out why I think this is okay, and punishment by Valve is not. Maybe it's the size of the punishment. You may think it is a slap on a wrist, but it is preventing these people from playing the game correctly for a month, and I feel exploits are not the player's fault, it is Valve's.
<!--quoteo(post=1700930:date=Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me honestly: Are you upset because you really think this is a big problem, or are upset because you got pinched?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't played TF2 in about 4 months, so I just have a big problem with the way they are treating their customers. It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
<!--quoteo(post=1700950:date=Feb 20 2009, 07:46 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Feb 20 2009, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I don't agree much with the punishment, I don't think it's realistic to expect playtesters to find every bug and exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it's realistic for them to find everything either, but they shouldn't punish their paying customers when they (the customers) find a bug for them / try out a bug someone else found.
<!--quoteo(post=1700930:date=Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Cause I spent a while in this thread being told exactly the opposite. That having to grind for unlockables was not a big deal especially because of the achievement servers. And further more, that the unlockables offered no significant tactical advantage from the standard weapons. If you disagreed, you didn't voice it, so what is your basis for claiming that they are more damaging than blatant cheating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was referring to the longer lasting effect of the behavior. I disagree that using exploits are "blatant cheating".
I wasn't actually paying much attention to this thread until I saw this blog post, but I also don't like achievement based unlockables. Achievement servers are definitely a method of exploiting / gaming the system. I don't have a (huge) problem with them because the grind is stupid, and I certainly don't feel that people on those servers deserve to be punished... Though following Valve's logic here, these people should also be punished. That's why I thought locally's post made such an interesting point.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1700961:date=Feb 20 2009, 09:19 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 20 2009, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem with server admins banning/kicking people for exploiting/cheating. I can't exactly figure out why I think this is okay, and punishment by Valve is not. Maybe it's the size of the punishment. You may think it is a slap on a wrist, but it is preventing these people from playing the game correctly for a month, and I feel exploits are not the player's fault, it is Valve's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> For me it's:<ul><li> They're shifting the blame to the players. An exploit is a developer problem. I'm not saying the game should be perfect, just that they own up to their mistakes.</li><li> Admins/ players on the server are the only one's directly affected. They can choose what they allow on the server. If they want to load a map that gives everyone/no one crits they can do it. Although this was an exploit that needed to be fixed, it could probably be modded functionality as well. </li><li> It seems arbitrary. There have been other exploits where people weren't "punished".</li></ul>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Admins/ players on the server are the only one's directly affected. They can choose what they allow on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And if they're VAC secure, is it safe to assume that they don't allow cheating on their server? I'd say so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems arbitrary. There have been other exploits where people weren't "punished".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps thats why valve decided to punish this one, because their previous policy of not punishing exploit abuse has led to the feeling that exploits are not cheating, a mentality they want to discourage.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1700976:date=Feb 20 2009, 10:33 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 20 2009, 10:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For me it's:<ul><li> They're shifting the blame to the players. An exploit is a developer problem. I'm not saying the game should be perfect, just that they own up to their mistakes.</li><li> Admins/ players on the server are the only one's directly affected. They can choose what they allow on the server. If they want to load a map that gives everyone/no one crits they can do it. Although this was an exploit that needed to be fixed, it could probably be modded functionality as well. </li><li> It seems arbitrary. There have been other exploits where people weren't "punished".</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are very good at articulating what I cannot. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1700985:date=Feb 20 2009, 12:28 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 20 2009, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if they're VAC secure, is it safe to assume that they don't allow cheating on their server? I'd say so. Perhaps thats why valve decided to punish this one, because their previous policy of not punishing exploit abuse has led to the feeling that exploits are not cheating, a mentality they want to discourage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But exploits *aren't* cheats. As locally said, and I have said, an exploit is a developer problem. The people who use an exploit are playing within the rules defined by the game. If Valve doesn't want people doing that, they should test more thoroughly so that the players aren't doing their job for them and then getting punished for it.
<!--quoteo(post=1700689:date=Feb 17 2009, 10:15 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 17 2009, 10:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to stop an ubered medic in his track is just kinda evil.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1701002:date=Feb 20 2009, 01:41 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Feb 20 2009, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bonk!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oops! Zat vas not medizine!
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701002:date=Feb 20 2009, 02:41 PM:name=ZiGGY)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZiGGY @ Feb 20 2009, 02:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bonk!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> yah, kinda wondering why no one commented on it. (I know, discussed to death in IRC, but that hasn't stopped us before).
Comments
The airblast, derided as a joke by some, is PERFECT for screwing soldiers over with. You can bounce übered enemies around, which tends to screw up their übercharge quite a bit. You can blow stickies away, you can even reflect pipebombs.
And that time when we were defending stage three of Dustbowl with five seconds left on the clock and the blues were rushing the point with nobody but me (as medic) alive to defend it? I had an übercharge ready, so I popped it and jumped on the point, confident that we'd win now that I could block the point. Then a pyro airblasted me off the point and the blues capped it before I could get back on it. The collective groan of dismay was incredible.
The shotgun is great for finishing off fleeing enemies, or for damaging enemies that are out of range. Better damage and easier to hit with than the flare gun.
The axtinguisher, I agree, is just flat out better than the regular axe. Though considering how little I ever used the regular axe, that doesn't necessarily say much. But why would I even NEED a backburner with this baby? If I can ambush the enemy, then I can also simply set them ablaze with a quick puft of flame, then switch to the axtinguisher and crit the everloving ###### out of them. 195 damage, baby. Ain't nothing but a heavy or an overhealed soldier gonna survive THAT!
Also I don't playe the pyro as an ambush class, I play him as a hit and run class. I need airblast to defelct projectiles and shotgun to do damage to people when retreating back to a dispenser. Backburner and flaregun are of no use to me since I rarely see the enemies back and the flaregun is slow as poop (finishing someone off with shotty is just so much better)
-for my playstyle at least <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Also airblast is ownage versus medic uber combo (just blow away the medic and no more uber <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
If I understand it correctly (which I might not), any stickies within 512 units of the demoman won't deal full damage until 5 seconds after they've been spawned.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. Graph on their bloggoblag explains it - stickies fired and detonated within 512 units of the demoman still deal <i>above</i> 100% damage, but now it scales up to 120% (115%?) instead of the usual 150% other classes get.
Until 5 seconds have passed, after which they deal their normal damage regardless of distance placed at.
I already addressed this: Why should I have to? FFS, if whatever valve is trying to accomplish by tying unlockables to achievements is so easy to bypass, why bother doing it at all!?
Edit: You can stop with the pyro anecdotes. I already admitted that since I don't play the class myself my assumption was based on what I've seen in the servers I play in (very few regulars using the standard thrower, absolutely no one using the shotgun or axe), and were apparently not as accurate as I thought.
I'm thinking that might be the source of disagreement here. Different strategies are dominant in different server communities. Maybe its because I only play on 32 player servers? Maybe the average skill level on my servers is better or worse than on yours at the times we play? Either way, I've conceded the point.
Actually my point was that it isn't perfect, but it isn't that bad.
Some people LIKE going for the unlocks, some don't.
Those that like it can futz around and have fun with it. Those that don't can go spend 10 mins and get them all.
I expect that I will actually get the scout achievements at my own time once the scout rush has died down. It is kinda nice because the server I play on can be filled with regs alone, and we tend to be a relatively decent group of players, so I expect I will actually get some scout time in.
Gha, dont remind me.
When the engi gets its update we will see really, really, really static gameplay on every ###### single server.
And I will finally get my demoman (destroy 1000 sentry guns) achievement <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
Heh, quite. I expect to finally get the uber-scout one when this pack comes out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You Have Failed Me
February 18, 2009 - TF Announcer
It saddens me that despite my best efforts to instruct and better you, some of you insist on finding new ways to fail.
We have sounded the alert and released a quick fix for an exploit that some unscrupulous players were using to wield items on invalid classes. I have considered an appropriate punishment for the good-for-nothings responsible for this horrendous breach of conduct. Death, of course - but death is too good for disappointments such as these. Instead, their unlockable items have been removed for a month.
To the majority of you who did not see fit to cheat, you have my congratulations: I await the countless other ways you will inevitably disappoint me in the future.
Yours,
TF Announcer<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not how you treat your customers, not even the ones that exploit glitches in your game.
The players are not the developer's kids, it is not the developer's place to scold/punish them. -.-'
I think they were trying to strike humor with that post, but it just seems very unprofessional to me.
By that logic, any anti-cheat software built into games is "wrong".
EDIT - Beaten, by ages apparently. I didn't notice the other page <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
EDIT2 - Regarding the bat, will it have an alternate fire mode or something (since it has both melee and the new ranged attack)? If so, it'll be the first weapon to have an alternate fire in TF2 which actually damages something on its own.
Exactly. These aren't people who downloaded programs to actively cheat (i'm okay with VAC banning those people). All they are doing is exploiting a bug the developers failed to find before releasing the update. They may not like it, but this is a part of their game.
It is human nature to be curious.
Not only that, but the glitch has no lasting impact on the game after they release a patch. This is a preemptive argument against questioning the punishment of people who dupe items in other games. There is no economy of the game to screw up, and not only that, apparently they have ways of detecting who did it.
If it gave any lasting advantage, they could have just removed it like they did with that achievement unlock console command they forgot to take out before releasing the patch.
I feel that the majority of people, on live servers or not, only were trying it out for curiosities sake.
I don't blame them for this choice, I would expect to get VAC banned even if I was "Just trying out" a wall hack. They used an exploit and got lightly punished for it, big deal.
Pretty stupid, in my opinion. Not how you treat your customers, not even the ones that exploit glitches in your game.
The players are not the developer's kids, it is not the developer's place to scold/punish them. -.-'
I think they were trying to strike humor with that post, but it just seems very unprofessional to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I probably would have tried it on a listen server if I had known about it just to see what interesting combinations I could come up with. TF2 is not an MMO, it's not like these exploits "ruined the in game economy" or caused "permanent territory shifts".
And comparing it to a cheat is not accurate. It's an exploit not a cheat. They might as well go ban all of the people on achievement servers then.
Semantics. I can't claim to know how valve is deciding who to punish, but they very well may only be punishing people who used the exploit in public. I have no reason to believe differently until someone shows otherwise.
Besides, what kind of punishment are we talking about here? A month without precious unlockables. Thats barely punishment at all, especially if your primary class doesn't even have unlockables yet. A slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isnt. And writing it from the perspective of the announcer was funny.
I don't blame them for this choice, I would expect to get VAC banned even if I was "Just trying out" a wall hack. They used an exploit and got lightly punished for it, big deal.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->But there's my point. You can't try out a wall hack without downloading an external program. An exploit is a part of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700918:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:02 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Feb 19 2009, 09:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700918"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TF2 is not an MMO, it's not like these exploits "ruined the in game economy" or caused "permanent territory shifts".
And comparing it to a cheat is not accurate. It's an exploit not a cheat. They might as well go ban all of the people on achievement servers then.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Great post, I agree 100%. Achievement servers are actually worse in terms of long term damage to the game than trying out an exploit that has no effect beyond the current game.
<!--quoteo(post=1700920:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Semantics. I can't claim to know how valve is deciding who to punish, but they very well may only be punishing people who used the exploit in public. I have no reason to believe differently until someone shows otherwise.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I definitely disagree here. I would assume that, given the blog post, they wouldn't bother to make this distinction. Their stance is that those who used an exploit deserve to be punished. My stance is that Valve screwed up by not testing enough to find the exploit before releasing the patch to the wild, and the players did what players do. They got curious, and they played.
<!--quoteo(post=1700920:date=Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 09:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Besides, what kind of punishment are we talking about here? A month without precious unlockables. Thats barely punishment at all, especially if your primary class doesn't even have unlockables yet. A slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isnt. And writing it from the perspective of the announcer was funny.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->In that case, I am fining you $5.00 for disagreeing with me. It's barely a punishment--merely a slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isn't.
The size of the punishment should not matter. Valve should not be punishing players because they (Valve) had a bug in their game. If there was any lasting advantage, as there was with the previous unlockable exploit, that should be removed. Past that, they (Valve) should just patch the bug and get on with it.
Long ago, I was an admin for a Counter-Strike server. We banned a guy for wallhacking. He appealed, saying he was only trying it out. We laughed. Then we banned him HARDER.
Really? Cause I spent a while in this thread being told exactly the opposite. That having to grind for unlockables was not a big deal especially because of the achievement servers. And further more, that the unlockables offered no significant tactical advantage from the standard weapons. If you disagreed, you didn't voice it, so what is your basis for claiming that they are more damaging than blatant cheating?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In that case, I am fining you $5.00 for disagreeing with me. It's barely a punishment--merely a slap on the wrist. A warning that, in case you were under the impression that this kind of behavior was ok, it isn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what terms of service have I agreed to that allows you to do so? You agreed to play their game by their rules, they have determined this exploit to be against the rules and have punished you for it. A slap on the wrist barely worth mentioning. Hell, it seems that lately the unlockables have been glitchy for people anyways.
Tell me honestly: Are you upset because you really think this is a big problem, or are upset because you got pinched?
While I don't agree much with the punishment, I don't think it's realistic to expect playtesters to find every bug and exploit.
I don't have a problem with server admins banning/kicking people for exploiting/cheating. I can't exactly figure out why I think this is okay, and punishment by Valve is not. Maybe it's the size of the punishment. You may think it is a slap on a wrist, but it is preventing these people from playing the game correctly for a month, and I feel exploits are not the player's fault, it is Valve's.
<!--quoteo(post=1700930:date=Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me honestly: Are you upset because you really think this is a big problem, or are upset because you got pinched?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't played TF2 in about 4 months, so I just have a big problem with the way they are treating their customers. It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
<!--quoteo(post=1700950:date=Feb 20 2009, 07:46 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Feb 20 2009, 07:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I don't agree much with the punishment, I don't think it's realistic to expect playtesters to find every bug and exploit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's realistic for them to find everything either, but they shouldn't punish their paying customers when they (the customers) find a bug for them / try out a bug someone else found.
<!--quoteo(post=1700930:date=Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 19 2009, 11:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700930"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Really? Cause I spent a while in this thread being told exactly the opposite. That having to grind for unlockables was not a big deal especially because of the achievement servers. And further more, that the unlockables offered no significant tactical advantage from the standard weapons. If you disagreed, you didn't voice it, so what is your basis for claiming that they are more damaging than blatant cheating?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was referring to the longer lasting effect of the behavior. I disagree that using exploits are "blatant cheating".
I wasn't actually paying much attention to this thread until I saw this blog post, but I also don't like achievement based unlockables. Achievement servers are definitely a method of exploiting / gaming the system. I don't have a (huge) problem with them because the grind is stupid, and I certainly don't feel that people on those servers deserve to be punished... Though following Valve's logic here, these people should also be punished. That's why I thought locally's post made such an interesting point.
For me it's:<ul><li> They're shifting the blame to the players. An exploit is a developer problem. I'm not saying the game should be perfect, just that they own up to their mistakes.</li><li> Admins/ players on the server are the only one's directly affected. They can choose what they allow on the server. If they want to load a map that gives everyone/no one crits they can do it. Although this was an exploit that needed to be fixed, it could probably be modded functionality as well. </li><li> It seems arbitrary. There have been other exploits where people weren't "punished".</li></ul>
And if they're VAC secure, is it safe to assume that they don't allow cheating on their server? I'd say so.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems arbitrary. There have been other exploits where people weren't "punished".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perhaps thats why valve decided to punish this one, because their previous policy of not punishing exploit abuse has led to the feeling that exploits are not cheating, a mentality they want to discourage.
You are very good at articulating what I cannot. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1700985:date=Feb 20 2009, 12:28 PM:name=SkulkBait)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SkulkBait @ Feb 20 2009, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1700985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And if they're VAC secure, is it safe to assume that they don't allow cheating on their server? I'd say so.
Perhaps thats why valve decided to punish this one, because their previous policy of not punishing exploit abuse has led to the feeling that exploits are not cheating, a mentality they want to discourage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But exploits *aren't* cheats. As locally said, and I have said, an exploit is a developer problem. The people who use an exploit are playing within the rules defined by the game. If Valve doesn't want people doing that, they should test more thoroughly so that the players aren't doing their job for them and then getting punished for it.
it's called "Air Blast" my friend, air blast xD
Oops! Zat vas not medizine!
yah, kinda wondering why no one commented on it. (I know, discussed to death in IRC, but that hasn't stopped us before).
meh, I got my SG counter.