The Force-A-Nature isn't great for those 1on1 moments and tbh it's actually pretty damn weak. However it's really useful on some points such as badlands spire (cp4) as you can knock people flying if they try and jump up. Also it's pretty good for splitting medics and their partners up. Still in a 1on1 situation though you're at a real disadvantage.
The sandman imho is pretty useless frin CP2-CP4, however when you get to the last CP and you're holding or pushing it can really swing the game, if you get the demo or medic you've got that point! Still, the loss of the doublejump and the weakness of the bat along side with the fact it has a slow recharge and is hard to hit make it pretty useless.
The bonk energy drink is interesting. While it's not useful in any sense for getting around the map faster it does have other sides to it which really do help. The fact is you can use it as a secondary uber. Using this can be great for running up to sentrys then killing them (by circling them faster then they can rotate) and also by distracting sentrys (and dumb players) into shooting you while your team disposes of them! It's a really tactical drink that's pretty useful on some maps and then complete ###### on others! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1701436:date=Feb 25 2009, 09:58 PM:name=Xyth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Xyth @ Feb 25 2009, 09:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As someone who used the unlocker I'm interested to see if they actually remove my unlocks for a week.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Mine are still there.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
Am I the only one who doesn't really care or mind about the achievement unlock thing? The concept isn't particularly troublesome if it doesn't take too much casual play to unlock the items. My only gripe would be that with the way they've released the updates in sections coupled with the fact that you have to work to unlock them it makes any previous time spent on that class reduced in value.
If for example you doublejumped as a scout one thousand times before this patch you don't get the achievement now because that and all the other achievement timers are effectively set to zero.
Of course it's nice that Valve are releasing bonus content at all, so what if they structure it so that you're rewarded for playing? They want people to keep enjoying their game and while some of you might gripe about it, if you play the game anyway it shouldn't take too long to get the unlocks. Of course I would be in favour of reducing the number of unlocks required to get the items a little bit or make those unlocks easier to get. But that's just me.
<b>The Force-A-Nature</b> I'm kinda disappointed this was voted the first unlock as it seems to be the least useful. The triple-jump it affords you leaves you a shot down and doesn't add as much height or distance as a double-jump. It can save you from fall damage, though, which is about the most useful thing it does for me. Using it in mid-air is an utter pain since it shoots you backwards all the time, so you'll mostly be using it on the ground where the Scout is at his most vulnerable. The rate of fire may be quicker, but unless you have uber-twitch reflexes you won't be taking advantage of this: you'll probably just slow down your RoF to what you're used to with the Scattergun. Okay, so it pushes people backwards, big woo. You have to bear in mind when you equip this you're trading off reliable firepower and combat mobility for an escapology tool. It seems to be a defensive/passive weapon for an offensive/aggressive class. I can't see it being that useful for any meaninful purpose other than flagrunning or very advanced CP running where you're relying on not getting into a scrap and having to defend yourself. It's worth noting that the stun and Bonk! would also play solidly into this more passive role. Basically these are upgrades for people who want to play the Scout but don't want to shoot stuff, but conversely you seem to have to be quite good at shooting to get them (legitimately) in the first place.
<b>The Sandman</b> Broken, OP, imba; whatever you want to call it. There's no charge-up and unless you let it off at point blank range the time the target is left immobile is more than enough for a Scout to finish them off, Heavy or not. Only having 1 ammo is fairly immaterial for the Scout since a good one can dominate the pickups through sheer speed and mobility. So you lose your double-jump, but that shouldn't matter if you can just immobilise ###### left, right and centre. Although I haven't tried it yet (I'll have it in 3 -legit- achievements time) it seems about as fast and has about the same arc as the Flaregun, which imo aren't that difficult to aim and at least give you the option to recover. When a Scout rounds a corner and shoots it in your face, there's basically nothing you can do about it. Also there's no obvious way to tell if someone is about to stun you or run up to your face and melee you, leaving you NO CHANCE to anticipate their method of attack. This kinda flies in the face of everything Valve have said about the 'readability' in TF2. There is no counter to this ability, <i>none</i> (flame, gunfire, melee, uber, crit shots, explosions - none of these works as a counter). I expect to see this getting a nerf pretty soon.
<b>Bonk!</b> I haven't tried this yet but I've seen others using it. It seems like the best upgrade in terms of balance and usefulness. Scouts can now decoy sentries with impunity while someone else takes them down, or just ignore them completely. There is a massive tradeoff, though, so there's a lot of skill in judging when it's safe to use this and not have to pay the consequences for the resultant slowdown after the effect wears off.
<b>Spy buffs</b> Faster backstab animation makes for speedier and more accurate stabs! Disguise as an Engy <i>with a wrench</i> for "epic lulz" and massive Sentry devastation. Enemy player names help you take out the better of the two Snipers. Will Valve ever stop buffing the Spy or is he to become some sort of one-man wrecking ball of pwn?
<b>cp_fastlane update</b> Some good, some bad. The top corridor overlooking the last CP has been made slightly chokier and given more cover, which is a good thing. But, the corridors just before CP3 have been made super-chokey with tiny doors that you get stuck on. I never really saw that as a problem area, so I'm a bit puzzled with this.
<b>New maps</b> <u>cp_egypt:</u> Confusing layout and quite chokey, with not much space to manouvre. There are lots of incidental walkways and ledges that don't take you anywhere important and there's a lot of visual clutter. <u>arena_watchtower:</u> Solid arena map that I would happily play again if standard Arena didn't suck so hard (even harder now with the 'First Blood' feature - which lets the first killer have about 4 seconds of free crits - stupid). It has a real different style of play to it than the others and is perfect for Scouts. <u>cp_junction</u> Yet to play this, but looks good.
--- <b>@Scythe</b> You compared the stun to the Heavy slowdown, which is completely different because the player has complete control over when that slowdown is initiated and it affects only himself. The stun immobilises the other player, and they can do nothing to stop it or recover from it. They must rely on teammates to save them, not even the flamer/flaregun <i>forces</i> you to rely on a teammate to save you. Let's also remember that the flamer and flaregun are very readable. If you see a Pyro you run. If you see a Scout you have no idea if he's gonna stun you or bat you and most of the time you won't be able to run because the Scout will be faster than you. There are just so many reasons the Sandman is retarded it's unfunny.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I agree with Crispy about the sandman. I was going to make a similar post earlier but I couldn't think of a way to word it that didn't make me sound like I was just butthurt over it.
As an example of how annoying and impossible to counter it is, I was a heavy (using Natascha because that is awesome against the waves of scouts) and I saw a scout, he saw me and popped around a corner before my gun heated up (we were pretty close). Then he popped back around the corner and sandman'd me. It was a pretty close range but he still managed to kill me before the immobilisation wore off.
Something about it just doesn't seem fair. The scout is already faster and more mobile than any other class, he shouldn't be able to stop other classes. At the moment, he can easily solo any other class in the game if he manages to get reasonably close to them. That means that if someone goes around a back / side route and comes across a scout, the scout can and will kill them without the other person having a chance to fight back. That's not what the scout is supposed to do.
I think that there needs to be a certain range in which the sandman doesn't stun, it just knocks the other player back (although that doesn't make sense from a theme point of view). Right up close the stun still works. It "only" stuns the person for just under a second, but even half a second is an *awfully long time* in an FPS when you're frozen.
Right now the Sandman is about as skilled as the old Gorge webs, except the Scout is a free and faster unit with way more offensive power.
I think my preferred solution is to give it a charge-up like the Sniper Rifle but one that cannot be held indefinitely, with a full charge stunning for the maximum times that we see at the moment. If released before full charge it would do the minimum stun. There should be some sort of animation or effect to show a Scout is charging, like throwing the ball up in the air before batting it. I also thing it needs to be an alternative to the normal bat, not an improvement. A weaker or slower melee would make it an alternative to the vanilla bat and allow vanilla Scouts to contend with other Scouts.
This would make it far more skilful to use with visual cues giving people sufficient warning about their impending doom (and a good incdication of how much time they have to avoid it). But good players could still use it to good effect, and there would be no way to completely avoid it if the player had good aim since there would always be an opportunity to do a weak stun by releasing the charge early. This way you don't even need a hard counter, because it's not so powerful it dominates someone so bad they get an instant kill from it.
[Edit] <b>cp_junction</b> Yeah this map isn't as solid as Fastlane or Steel or Turbine. B is far too easy to capture, C is far too difficult. In general, C is almost totally on a higher level with all approaches coming from below. This gives a massive height advantage to the defenders. You can put Sentries in one spot that only has one approach, making it very hard to take them out without using an uber or 2 Spies working together. On the other side, Soldiers and Heavies can spam this really harsh angle that will splash-damage the ###### out of any Snipers trying to get a look-in. And you can build on the point which is in a small room that can't easily be shot at, so the dispensers and teles go in there (not that teles are needed, it's a short walk from the Red spawn to the frontline). This is probably on a par with the inpenetrability of some of the Dustbowl stages on TFC, and requires 2 Ubers + 1 Spy to fully route the enemy.
<!--quoteo(post=1701465:date=Feb 26 2009, 10:08 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 10:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Only having 1 ammo is fairly immaterial for the Scout since a good one can dominate the pickups through sheer speed and mobility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's worth mentioning that ammo pickups and other players' dropped weapons don't "recharge" the Sandman. You get a new ball by allowing it to recharge (dunno how long it takes, I don't have it yet, myself), picking a ball up from the ground (your own or another scout's, doesn't matter) or visiting an ammo locker (these are only found in spawn points on official maps).
<!--quoteo(post=1701471:date=Feb 26 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also thing it needs to be an alternative to the normal bat, not an improvement. A weaker or slower melee would make it an alternative to the vanilla bat and allow vanilla Scouts to contend with other Scouts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Against anyone who isn't stunned, it only does half damage.
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
<!--quoteo(post=1701465:date=Feb 26 2009, 04:08 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 04:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>Spy buffs</b> Faster backstab animation makes for speedier and more accurate stabs! Disguise as an Engy <i>with a wrench</i> for "epic lulz" and massive Sentry devastation. Enemy player names help you take out the better of the two Snipers. Will Valve ever stop buffing the Spy or is he to become some sort of one-man wrecking ball of pwn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's all this about the spy then? Did they make it so the weapon you have out relates to the weapon that the enemy team see? So a spy with his knife out and disguised as an engineer looks to the enemy team like an engineer with his wrench out?
If so, awesome!
I'm not quite sure what your complaints are about the spy being over powered, in all my experiences they're a difficult class to use well, and a decent buff like the above-described doesn't sound unbalancing. Sounds like it makes spy'ing more fun.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
I don't think the sandman needs that much of a nerf. I think if there was a separate and obvious third person model for the sandman at least I'd know to expect it or not.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701481:date=Feb 26 2009, 09:16 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 26 2009, 09:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701481"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure how much harder detecting spies needs to become.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally think disguise was nearly totally useless (out side of the fact that SGs don't target you), now, I dono if it still is or not (not enough play time). The only times I really get killed by a spy is when I don't even know they are there (aka, uncloak and get to me before I see them), and this has been true for most people I play with (and the good spies I play with agree with me on this).
ATM Spies are also nerfed to hell atm due to the fact that their weapon doesn't properly cloak (if the spy is not 100% invis the weapon is 100% there instead of faded like they are, at least if they are disguised), so one stray round instantly lights them up instead of a small flicker. It is also easier to track them when they cloak run away.
as for the unlocks:
I gave up and ground em out last night: F-A-N: I like it. Alot. 2 shots take down most classes and the fire time is insane (2 shots pointblack is about 200 damage, which is an un buffed soldier). I like it because scout is my main class, if it wasn't I could see my self hating it with a passion.
Bonk!: Honestly don't know yet. I haven't used it in an actual game yet so I am fairly undecided. I am VERY glad they don't let em attack when it is up, but so far I haven't seen any scouts use it well yet.
Sandman: It doesn't bother me. There should be SOME delay in firing, but even there it doesn't seem that bad. I will likely never use it my self, but even with a horde of scouts using it I wasn't getting horribly dominated by it. The one thing is that you should be immune to the stun for a second or so after the effect wears off. Some of the people I play with chain stunned some one for over a min when messing around. But, not goign to be using it my self because I don't like giving up my double jump.
<!--quoteo(post=1701465:date=Feb 26 2009, 03:08 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 03:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701465"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>cp_egypt:</u> Confusing layout and quite chokey, with not much space to manouvre. There are lots of incidental walkways and ledges that don't take you anywhere important and there's a lot of visual clutter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I find this interesting, I actually found them the opposite. Egypt does have some choke points but for the most part it's large open areas with only two or three colors leaving the recognition of players pretty easy. Junction (I realize you haven't played) on the other hand is completely indoors with small rooms and winding hallways, lots of objects are not properly clipped and you can get caught on them, there is stuff <i>everywhere</i> that makes it extremely visually cluttered (if an enemy player isn't moving there is actually a chance you won't notice him).
<!--quoteo(post=1701472:date=Feb 26 2009, 06:15 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 26 2009, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Against anyone who isn't stunned, it only does half damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...not anymore <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/news/2292/" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/news/2292/</a> Now valve. Make my axtinguisher to full damage to everyone.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
huh, so all they did was just add the baseball, no other changes. That is kinda silly as it makes it flat out better. Admittedly, the scout bat already has lower damage then other melee weapons iirc, but still.
Also, reading up on Bonk! it seems fairly pointless. There is no speed boost, knockback still hits you, you can't cap or carry the intel, and all in all it is relatively pointless (it would be cool for getaways if it didn't have the drink animation where you are still vulnerable).
I like Egypt. It has lots of varied heights to play with (some reachable by all classes, some only by demo/soldier/scout some only by demo/soldier). The mix of both open spaces and choke points mean that all classes have areas they can function well in. I also like the irregularity of it. lots of small unevenness in walls, rapidly changing heights in walls, etc etc. also a number of good dark areas for snipers/spies/whatever that contrast well with the large bright areas.
well I havent gotten round to playing it for more than an hour and even then I only brought out my heavy to finally get that damn sandvich achievement; as for scout unlocks hah don't think I'll be getting em any time soon :/ As for the sandman I honestly never in a million years thought it'd be instant cast and is by far and away the griefer's weapon of choice allowing for almost complete 1v1 domination ;p, that being said I'd ASSUME it's been playtested but I live in a magic fairy land where such things seem like common sense :/
<!--quoteo(post=1701498:date=Feb 26 2009, 05:34 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Feb 26 2009, 05:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701498"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->huh, so all they did was just add the baseball, no other changes. That is kinda silly as it makes it flat out better. Admittedly, the scout bat already has lower damage then other melee weapons iirc, but still.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It still disables double-jumping.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701431:date=Feb 26 2009, 01:44 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 26 2009, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701431"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exactly. I thought Valve designed for fun, not for addiction. I was wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Valve designs games to sell. Never forget that.
Every company on the planet designs things to sell. If they don't, then they're a charity.
Valve may have a higher level of community interaction than most other game developers, but they're still making games to make money, not to make a (relatively) small group of people happy.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited February 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1701508:date=Feb 26 2009, 02:18 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Feb 26 2009, 02:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Valve designs games to sell. Never forget that.
Every company on the planet designs things to sell. If they don't, then they're a charity.
Valve may have a higher level of community interaction than most other game developers, but they're still making games to make money, not to make a (relatively) small group of people happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One can make a game that sells huge amounts without resorting to the grinding addiction non-fun gameplay. I mean, they've done it at least twice(or more?) in recent history. I thought that despite how big Valve is, that they also held this same principle.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701510:date=Feb 26 2009, 07:23 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Feb 26 2009, 07:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One can make a game that sells huge amounts without resorting to the grinding addiction non-fun gameplay. I mean, they've done it at least twice(or more?) in recent history. I thought that despite how big Valve is, that they also held this same principle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People love achievements. People love showing off to other people ("look I've got this gun and you don't"). It sells.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited February 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1701511:date=Feb 26 2009, 02:27 PM:name=X_Stickman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(X_Stickman @ Feb 26 2009, 02:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People love achievements. People love showing off to other people ("look I've got this gun and you don't"). It sells.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I never said achievements were a bad thing. Forcing people to do the achievements to access the new content is a bad thing.
NOTE: I only unlocked the milestone achievements (with the program) specifically BECAUSE I like achievements and want to enjoy them rather than have them devalued by necessity.
What I really dont like, is that getting the unlocks becomes harder and harder, cause you need other unlocks for alot of scout achievements.
Edit: Medic: 0 Achievements require unlocks. Pyro: 3 Achievements require unlocks. Heavy: 3 Achievements require unlocks. Scout: 9 Achievements require unlocks and 2 were an enemy player has to have unlocks. This makes getting the scouts unlocks pretty hard, cause you cannot choose that well and only after the sandman is available you can get do every achievements.
I'm slowly coming round to the Sandman, but I still think it needs a nerf of some sort.
- The half-damage to non-stunned players was nice, dunno why they took that out since it basically makes it a solid upgrade instead of an alternative to the bat, which will piss off a lot of more casual players (which is who TF2 is aimed at??!!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!11111111ONE) - The only-one-ball thing is fine so long as you can't pick your own ball up after a successful stun (the fact you can't just constantly recycle this ability by picking up ammo like Spycloak makes a BIG difference to how OP I thought the weapon was) - I agree there needs to be a cooldown after stunning someone to prevent griefing, I thought this was already the case (maybe the game's only applying this rule after a stunned person gets hit?) - I still think the weapon needs to be made more readable and should require more skill/timing
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1701515:date=Feb 26 2009, 03:06 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 03:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701515"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm slowly coming round to the Sandman, but I still think it needs a nerf of some sort.
- The half-damage to non-stunned players was nice, dunno why they took that out since it basically makes it a solid upgrade instead of an alternative to the bat, which will piss off a lot of more casual players (which is who TF2 is aimed at??!!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!11111111ONE) - The only-one-ball thing is fine so long as you can't pick your own ball up after a successful stun (the fact you can't just constantly recycle this ability by picking up ammo like Spycloak makes a BIG difference to how OP I thought the weapon was) - I agree there needs to be a cooldown after stunning someone to prevent griefing, I thought this was already the case (maybe the game's only applying this rule after a stunned person gets hit?) - I still think the weapon needs to be made more readable and should require more skill/timing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would much prefer half-damage to non-stunned players over losing my double jump... But losing the double jump is a such a severe nerf to the scout that I don't see how you could think it is overpowered at all... I actually think it is very underpowered / I think removing the scout's double jump makes the scout so much less fun to play...
Also I don't know what potential griefing you're talking about. I think it's good that another scout can come in and whack a ball over to keep a guy stunned for longer, if necessary. The only place where this was a problem was a server where someone had set the ball respawn time to 0, so you could keep a guy stunned forever. You can't do that with a 20 second respawn on the ball.
It's also not easy to hit people with this, I'm not sure what you're talking about. You get one chance, not several shots like with the flare gun. If you miss, and you're against a soldier, you no longer have the ability to double jump out of the way of rockets. I like using the Sandman, but as it is I feel like it lowers my effectivety as a scout.
Well... a counter-nerf doesn't automatically make something not overpowered. If the heavy had an AC that did 50 damage per pellet but it reduced his health to 75 it would still be overpowered.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1701556:date=Feb 27 2009, 12:20 AM:name=A_Boojum_Snark)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(A_Boojum_Snark @ Feb 27 2009, 12:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well... a counter-nerf doesn't automatically make something not overpowered. If the heavy had an AC that did 50 damage per pellet but it reduced his health to 75 it would still be overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's an extreme example. I don't think the Sandman is inherently unbalancable. In fact I think if it was just more noticeable it would be fine. It's actually not that hard to doge as long as you know it's coming. They should just make it a bright orange nerf bat or something.
90% of the times I've been stunned were at close range where there was no hope of dodging it, With that said I've only been stunned a grand total of ~6 times, even playing as heavier classes.
Comments
The sandman imho is pretty useless frin CP2-CP4, however when you get to the last CP and you're holding or pushing it can really swing the game, if you get the demo or medic you've got that point! Still, the loss of the doublejump and the weakness of the bat along side with the fact it has a slow recharge and is hard to hit make it pretty useless.
The bonk energy drink is interesting. While it's not useful in any sense for getting around the map faster it does have other sides to it which really do help. The fact is you can use it as a secondary uber. Using this can be great for running up to sentrys then killing them (by circling them faster then they can rotate) and also by distracting sentrys (and dumb players) into shooting you while your team disposes of them! It's a really tactical drink that's pretty useful on some maps and then complete ###### on others! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
My opinions anyway.
Mine are still there.
If for example you doublejumped as a scout one thousand times before this patch you don't get the achievement now because that and all the other achievement timers are effectively set to zero.
Of course it's nice that Valve are releasing bonus content at all, so what if they structure it so that you're rewarded for playing? They want people to keep enjoying their game and while some of you might gripe about it, if you play the game anyway it shouldn't take too long to get the unlocks. Of course I would be in favour of reducing the number of unlocks required to get the items a little bit or make those unlocks easier to get. But that's just me.
Same <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/marine.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::marine::" border="0" alt="marine.gif" />
<b>The Force-A-Nature</b>
I'm kinda disappointed this was voted the first unlock as it seems to be the least useful. The triple-jump it affords you leaves you a shot down and doesn't add as much height or distance as a double-jump. It can save you from fall damage, though, which is about the most useful thing it does for me. Using it in mid-air is an utter pain since it shoots you backwards all the time, so you'll mostly be using it on the ground where the Scout is at his most vulnerable. The rate of fire may be quicker, but unless you have uber-twitch reflexes you won't be taking advantage of this: you'll probably just slow down your RoF to what you're used to with the Scattergun. Okay, so it pushes people backwards, big woo. You have to bear in mind when you equip this you're trading off reliable firepower and combat mobility for an escapology tool. It seems to be a defensive/passive weapon for an offensive/aggressive class. I can't see it being that useful for any meaninful purpose other than flagrunning or very advanced CP running where you're relying on not getting into a scrap and having to defend yourself. It's worth noting that the stun and Bonk! would also play solidly into this more passive role. Basically these are upgrades for people who want to play the Scout but don't want to shoot stuff, but conversely you seem to have to be quite good at shooting to get them (legitimately) in the first place.
<b>The Sandman</b>
Broken, OP, imba; whatever you want to call it. There's no charge-up and unless you let it off at point blank range the time the target is left immobile is more than enough for a Scout to finish them off, Heavy or not. Only having 1 ammo is fairly immaterial for the Scout since a good one can dominate the pickups through sheer speed and mobility. So you lose your double-jump, but that shouldn't matter if you can just immobilise ###### left, right and centre. Although I haven't tried it yet (I'll have it in 3 -legit- achievements time) it seems about as fast and has about the same arc as the Flaregun, which imo aren't that difficult to aim and at least give you the option to recover. When a Scout rounds a corner and shoots it in your face, there's basically nothing you can do about it. Also there's no obvious way to tell if someone is about to stun you or run up to your face and melee you, leaving you NO CHANCE to anticipate their method of attack. This kinda flies in the face of everything Valve have said about the 'readability' in TF2. There is no counter to this ability, <i>none</i> (flame, gunfire, melee, uber, crit shots, explosions - none of these works as a counter). I expect to see this getting a nerf pretty soon.
<b>Bonk!</b>
I haven't tried this yet but I've seen others using it. It seems like the best upgrade in terms of balance and usefulness. Scouts can now decoy sentries with impunity while someone else takes them down, or just ignore them completely. There is a massive tradeoff, though, so there's a lot of skill in judging when it's safe to use this and not have to pay the consequences for the resultant slowdown after the effect wears off.
<b>Spy buffs</b>
Faster backstab animation makes for speedier and more accurate stabs! Disguise as an Engy <i>with a wrench</i> for "epic lulz" and massive Sentry devastation. Enemy player names help you take out the better of the two Snipers. Will Valve ever stop buffing the Spy or is he to become some sort of one-man wrecking ball of pwn?
<b>cp_fastlane update</b>
Some good, some bad. The top corridor overlooking the last CP has been made slightly chokier and given more cover, which is a good thing. But, the corridors just before CP3 have been made super-chokey with tiny doors that you get stuck on. I never really saw that as a problem area, so I'm a bit puzzled with this.
<b>New maps</b>
<u>cp_egypt:</u> Confusing layout and quite chokey, with not much space to manouvre. There are lots of incidental walkways and ledges that don't take you anywhere important and there's a lot of visual clutter.
<u>arena_watchtower:</u> Solid arena map that I would happily play again if standard Arena didn't suck so hard (even harder now with the 'First Blood' feature - which lets the first killer have about 4 seconds of free crits - stupid). It has a real different style of play to it than the others and is perfect for Scouts.
<u>cp_junction</u> Yet to play this, but looks good.
---
<b>@Scythe</b>
You compared the stun to the Heavy slowdown, which is completely different because the player has complete control over when that slowdown is initiated and it affects only himself. The stun immobilises the other player, and they can do nothing to stop it or recover from it. They must rely on teammates to save them, not even the flamer/flaregun <i>forces</i> you to rely on a teammate to save you. Let's also remember that the flamer and flaregun are very readable. If you see a Pyro you run. If you see a Scout you have no idea if he's gonna stun you or bat you and most of the time you won't be able to run because the Scout will be faster than you. There are just so many reasons the Sandman is retarded it's unfunny.
As an example of how annoying and impossible to counter it is, I was a heavy (using Natascha because that is awesome against the waves of scouts) and I saw a scout, he saw me and popped around a corner before my gun heated up (we were pretty close). Then he popped back around the corner and sandman'd me. It was a pretty close range but he still managed to kill me before the immobilisation wore off.
Something about it just doesn't seem fair. The scout is already faster and more mobile than any other class, he shouldn't be able to stop other classes. At the moment, he can easily solo any other class in the game if he manages to get reasonably close to them. That means that if someone goes around a back / side route and comes across a scout, the scout can and will kill them without the other person having a chance to fight back. That's not what the scout is supposed to do.
I think that there needs to be a certain range in which the sandman doesn't stun, it just knocks the other player back (although that doesn't make sense from a theme point of view). Right up close the stun still works. It "only" stuns the person for just under a second, but even half a second is an *awfully long time* in an FPS when you're frozen.
I think my preferred solution is to give it a charge-up like the Sniper Rifle but one that cannot be held indefinitely, with a full charge stunning for the maximum times that we see at the moment. If released before full charge it would do the minimum stun. There should be some sort of animation or effect to show a Scout is charging, like throwing the ball up in the air before batting it. I also thing it needs to be an alternative to the normal bat, not an improvement. A weaker or slower melee would make it an alternative to the vanilla bat and allow vanilla Scouts to contend with other Scouts.
This would make it far more skilful to use with visual cues giving people sufficient warning about their impending doom (and a good incdication of how much time they have to avoid it). But good players could still use it to good effect, and there would be no way to completely avoid it if the player had good aim since there would always be an opportunity to do a weak stun by releasing the charge early. This way you don't even need a hard counter, because it's not so powerful it dominates someone so bad they get an instant kill from it.
[Edit] <b>cp_junction</b>
Yeah this map isn't as solid as Fastlane or Steel or Turbine. B is far too easy to capture, C is far too difficult. In general, C is almost totally on a higher level with all approaches coming from below. This gives a massive height advantage to the defenders. You can put Sentries in one spot that only has one approach, making it very hard to take them out without using an uber or 2 Spies working together. On the other side, Soldiers and Heavies can spam this really harsh angle that will splash-damage the ###### out of any Snipers trying to get a look-in. And you can build on the point which is in a small room that can't easily be shot at, so the dispensers and teles go in there (not that teles are needed, it's a short walk from the Red spawn to the frontline). This is probably on a par with the inpenetrability of some of the Dustbowl stages on TFC, and requires 2 Ubers + 1 Spy to fully route the enemy.
It's worth mentioning that ammo pickups and other players' dropped weapons don't "recharge" the Sandman. You get a new ball by allowing it to recharge (dunno how long it takes, I don't have it yet, myself), picking a ball up from the ground (your own or another scout's, doesn't matter) or visiting an ammo locker (these are only found in spawn points on official maps).
<!--quoteo(post=1701471:date=Feb 26 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Feb 26 2009, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701471"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also thing it needs to be an alternative to the normal bat, not an improvement. A weaker or slower melee would make it an alternative to the vanilla bat and allow vanilla Scouts to contend with other Scouts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Against anyone who isn't stunned, it only does half damage.
Faster backstab animation makes for speedier and more accurate stabs! Disguise as an Engy <i>with a wrench</i> for "epic lulz" and massive Sentry devastation. Enemy player names help you take out the better of the two Snipers. Will Valve ever stop buffing the Spy or is he to become some sort of one-man wrecking ball of pwn?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's all this about the spy then? Did they make it so the weapon you have out relates to the weapon that the enemy team see? So a spy with his knife out and disguised as an engineer looks to the enemy team like an engineer with his wrench out?
If so, awesome!
I'm not quite sure what your complaints are about the spy being over powered, in all my experiences they're a difficult class to use well, and a decent buff like the above-described doesn't sound unbalancing. Sounds like it makes spy'ing more fun.
I personally think disguise was nearly totally useless (out side of the fact that SGs don't target you), now, I dono if it still is or not (not enough play time). The only times I really get killed by a spy is when I don't even know they are there (aka, uncloak and get to me before I see them), and this has been true for most people I play with (and the good spies I play with agree with me on this).
ATM Spies are also nerfed to hell atm due to the fact that their weapon doesn't properly cloak (if the spy is not 100% invis the weapon is 100% there instead of faded like they are, at least if they are disguised), so one stray round instantly lights them up instead of a small flicker. It is also easier to track them when they cloak run away.
as for the unlocks:
I gave up and ground em out last night:
F-A-N: I like it. Alot. 2 shots take down most classes and the fire time is insane (2 shots pointblack is about 200 damage, which is an un buffed soldier). I like it because scout is my main class, if it wasn't I could see my self hating it with a passion.
Bonk!: Honestly don't know yet. I haven't used it in an actual game yet so I am fairly undecided. I am VERY glad they don't let em attack when it is up, but so far I haven't seen any scouts use it well yet.
Sandman: It doesn't bother me. There should be SOME delay in firing, but even there it doesn't seem that bad. I will likely never use it my self, but even with a horde of scouts using it I wasn't getting horribly dominated by it. The one thing is that you should be immune to the stun for a second or so after the effect wears off. Some of the people I play with chain stunned some one for over a min when messing around. But, not goign to be using it my self because I don't like giving up my double jump.
I find this interesting, I actually found them the opposite. Egypt does have some choke points but for the most part it's large open areas with only two or three colors leaving the recognition of players pretty easy. Junction (I realize you haven't played) on the other hand is completely indoors with small rooms and winding hallways, lots of objects are not properly clipped and you can get caught on them, there is stuff <i>everywhere</i> that makes it extremely visually cluttered (if an enemy player isn't moving there is actually a chance you won't notice him).
<!--quoteo(post=1701472:date=Feb 26 2009, 06:15 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Feb 26 2009, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1701472"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Against anyone who isn't stunned, it only does half damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...not anymore <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" /> <a href="http://store.steampowered.com/news/2292/" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/news/2292/</a> Now valve. Make my axtinguisher to full damage to everyone.
Also, reading up on Bonk! it seems fairly pointless. There is no speed boost, knockback still hits you, you can't cap or carry the intel, and all in all it is relatively pointless (it would be cool for getaways if it didn't have the drink animation where you are still vulnerable).
I like Egypt. It has lots of varied heights to play with (some reachable by all classes, some only by demo/soldier/scout some only by demo/soldier). The mix of both open spaces and choke points mean that all classes have areas they can function well in. I also like the irregularity of it. lots of small unevenness in walls, rapidly changing heights in walls, etc etc. also a number of good dark areas for snipers/spies/whatever that contrast well with the large bright areas.
As for the sandman I honestly never in a million years thought it'd be instant cast and is by far and away the griefer's weapon of choice allowing for almost complete 1v1 domination ;p, that being said I'd ASSUME it's been playtested but I live in a magic fairy land where such things seem like common sense :/
It still disables double-jumping.
nurfdedurf
I am an idiot, thank you for reminding me of that fact lolf.
Valve designs games to sell. Never forget that.
Every company on the planet designs things to sell. If they don't, then they're a charity.
Valve may have a higher level of community interaction than most other game developers, but they're still making games to make money, not to make a (relatively) small group of people happy.
Every company on the planet designs things to sell. If they don't, then they're a charity.
Valve may have a higher level of community interaction than most other game developers, but they're still making games to make money, not to make a (relatively) small group of people happy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One can make a game that sells huge amounts without resorting to the grinding addiction non-fun gameplay. I mean, they've done it at least twice(or more?) in recent history.
I thought that despite how big Valve is, that they also held this same principle.
I thought that despite how big Valve is, that they also held this same principle.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People love achievements. People love showing off to other people ("look I've got this gun and you don't"). It sells.
I never said achievements were a bad thing. Forcing people to do the achievements to access the new content is a bad thing.
NOTE: I only unlocked the milestone achievements (with the program) specifically BECAUSE I like achievements and want to enjoy them rather than have them devalued by necessity.
Edit:
Medic: 0 Achievements require unlocks.
Pyro: 3 Achievements require unlocks.
Heavy: 3 Achievements require unlocks.
Scout: 9 Achievements require unlocks and 2 were an enemy player has to have unlocks.
This makes getting the scouts unlocks pretty hard, cause you cannot choose that well and only after the sandman is available you can get do every achievements.
- The half-damage to non-stunned players was nice, dunno why they took that out since it basically makes it a solid upgrade instead of an alternative to the bat, which will piss off a lot of more casual players (which is who TF2 is aimed at??!!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!11111111ONE)
- The only-one-ball thing is fine so long as you can't pick your own ball up after a successful stun (the fact you can't just constantly recycle this ability by picking up ammo like Spycloak makes a BIG difference to how OP I thought the weapon was)
- I agree there needs to be a cooldown after stunning someone to prevent griefing, I thought this was already the case (maybe the game's only applying this rule after a stunned person gets hit?)
- I still think the weapon needs to be made more readable and should require more skill/timing
- The half-damage to non-stunned players was nice, dunno why they took that out since it basically makes it a solid upgrade instead of an alternative to the bat, which will piss off a lot of more casual players (which is who TF2 is aimed at??!!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!11111111ONE)
- The only-one-ball thing is fine so long as you can't pick your own ball up after a successful stun (the fact you can't just constantly recycle this ability by picking up ammo like Spycloak makes a BIG difference to how OP I thought the weapon was)
- I agree there needs to be a cooldown after stunning someone to prevent griefing, I thought this was already the case (maybe the game's only applying this rule after a stunned person gets hit?)
- I still think the weapon needs to be made more readable and should require more skill/timing<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would much prefer half-damage to non-stunned players over losing my double jump... But losing the double jump is a such a severe nerf to the scout that I don't see how you could think it is overpowered at all... I actually think it is very underpowered / I think removing the scout's double jump makes the scout so much less fun to play...
Also I don't know what potential griefing you're talking about. I think it's good that another scout can come in and whack a ball over to keep a guy stunned for longer, if necessary. The only place where this was a problem was a server where someone had set the ball respawn time to 0, so you could keep a guy stunned forever. You can't do that with a 20 second respawn on the ball.
It's also not easy to hit people with this, I'm not sure what you're talking about. You get one chance, not several shots like with the flare gun. If you miss, and you're against a soldier, you no longer have the ability to double jump out of the way of rockets. I like using the Sandman, but as it is I feel like it lowers my effectivety as a scout.
That's an extreme example. I don't think the Sandman is inherently unbalancable. In fact I think if it was just more noticeable it would be fine. It's actually not that hard to doge as long as you know it's coming. They should just make it a bright orange nerf bat or something.