I cannot overemphasize how happy I am that the heavy is next. He's my favorite class. Man, I love playing heavy. He's definitely a lot better with a medic around but on smaller maps you can do just fine without a medic. The problem is more about larger maps, where your slow moving speed means it's too much trouble to retreat to go find medpacks and even more trouble to die and run back to the front lines. Badlands without a medic depends almost entirely on whether you're able to fight around a medpack respawn, because otherwise it won't really work.
I'm not really sure what I'd do with the heavy. Here are some ideas:
An unlockable minigun that heals you when it's spun up but not firing. It costs 1 ammo to heal you 1 point and you cannot move while the gun is spinning up (but you can while it is firing). It will not overheal you. This gun lets a heavy dispense with the medic, but in order to heal he has to have a constant source of ammunition, a place to be immobile, and a lot of time (it should heal slower than a dispenser). Maybe it only holds 150 bullets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> One new model (maybe the minigun is hooked up to a little miniature medic backpack), no new sounds, maybe one new effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Hold down right click to heal" is pretty simple, but if you just go around healing yourself you'll run out of ammo really fast and spend most of your time out of the fight, slowly patching your wounds. It also makes fights more interesting, because you can't run around with your gun spun up unless you're willing to heal up (or if you're at full health). You can only move if you're firing or not spun up at all. Now there's even more of a choice between spinning up and not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like this idea because it's not just "a gun for a heavy without a medic." Both guns are useful in both cases. The original minigun is better if you don't anticipate having much ammo around, because whether or not you have a medic, the healing minigun will suck up extra ammo when you're hurt. The original minigun can also be good if you don't have a medic because when there's no medic, it's important to be mobile, and removing the ability to move while spun up makes you less mobile.
The new minigun is better if there's plenty of ammo nearby and you don't have to get around much, like on defense. Whether or not you have a medic, it's a good idea to be able to heal that much faster. It's also good if you're very skilled and you're able to get around neutral/enemy territory without being instantly attacked, because if you're able to get away, you have a chance to heal up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You get to think about it constantly because the decision about whether to spin up the gun or not has even more weight. Or at least it has a different weight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dispensers near the front lines are much more important, because now the ammo + health they give is enough to get a heavy back into the fight even without a medic. So this encourages engineers to place the dispenser for the whole team, not for a source of metal in the back lines. It forces players to think about whether they want to hunt down a heavy and stop him from healing, or focus on the other enemies around and have to deal with a newly-healed heavy showing up again and again. It makes people think twice about getting too close to an enemy heavy, because if they die they'll give him ammo to continue his assault. And it frees medics from having to babysit a medic who is retreating anyways. Right now, if a heavy is really hurt and running away, a medic has to think about healing him because losing your heavy is a big problem. With this gun, the heavy could retreat and patch himself up, so the medic can stay in the front lines and worry about his heavy once he shows up.
Now for the tactical considerations: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even less ability to move while firing, plus he has to think about an ammo source if he's going to take damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is the enemy going to chase me? If they are, should I make my last stand and try to kill them, or find a place to hide and heal up? Are enemies going to die here and leave me ammo, or am I going to be high and dry?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even more important, because the more damage you take, the more ammo your gun is going to leech over time. If you take too much damage you might find yourself out of bullets that much faster.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No difference.
Post #2 (I had more than the allowed number of quotes when this was one big post):
Shotgun unlock:
Some sort of blunderbuss-like thing. Primary fire would shoot a blast that works a lot like the shotgun or the scout's scattergun. It would have a very short effective range. Also, it would push people back a bit, like when they're hit with crits or a sentry gun. Secondary fire would charge up the blunderbuss. The longer you hold it, the more it starts to shake. When you release it, it explodes with a big boom, pushing you back a bit, pushing your targets forward depending on how long it's been held down, making a big explosion, and doing some damage. The idea is that the damage and more important the effective arc of fire would get bigger as you hold it down. You would see the charge build up like an ubercharge or something, but it only takes 5 seconds to fully charge. When charging you move slowly, but not as slowly as when the minigun is spun up. Otherwise you move just as fast as when you have the shotgun. It only carries 5 or 10 shots. A critical hit should set people on fire just for fun. But it will never crit on a non-charged shot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> A new model, new sounds, a new effect for the explosion. It would be cool if the heavy would go "BOOM! HAHA" and other stuff like that when he releases a fully charged shot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At first you can use it like a cross between the shotgun/scattergun (less damage than the scout gun and less accurate than the shotgun, but more accurate than the scattergun and more damage than the shotgun), with a charge up whenever you see lots of enemies, but when to charge up, how much to charge, how large an area of effect each charge has, when to use it instead of the minigun, etc.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The shotgun is still better for long range engagements, which is something you REALLY need to think about as a heavy because that's your big weakness: at long range people can run away from the minigun so the shotgun is your only option. Also, the shotgun will reload faster, and since the blunderbuss never crits unless you charge it up, the shotgun is better for chasing someone because the lucky crit/extra range makes it a better chasing weapon.
The blunderbuss is better for fighting large masses of enemies, for doing more damage, or for managing a battle, since you can push your targets around a bit. If your minigun is out of ammo or you just want to be more mobile, the blunderbuss lets you run around more, and only restricts you when you charge up, and even then it's less of a restriction. The minigun is in some ways a good crowd control weapon, but the blunderbuss lets you hit many people at once. Also it would be cool to let off a fully charge blunderbuss shot to weaken people, then pull out the minigun for the mass murder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Should I use the blunderbuss? Should I use the minigun? Maybe I should swap to the shotgun to annoy snipers. Etc. Unlike the shotgun, which is used where the minigun isn't, the blunderbuss would be an either/or thing with your primary weapon, like the flamer/axestinguisher for the pyro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> People now have to be afraid of bunching up even if there aren't any demomen/soldiers around. The blunderbuss at full charge can push an uber away from his medic, or vice versa, which is good because right now the heavy is 100% screwed if an uber shows up. He can't do jack. Don't even say run away because that never works. His only hope is to have lots of teammates around to get murdered instead of him.
Now for the tactical considerations: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You can't just go around shooting off your blunderbuss. It's best when it hits multiple people and when it's charged up. Do you wait for a scout to show up before you let off the shot, or do you shoot the 3 people in front of you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you have to anticipate whether people are going to disperse or just crowd in closer for more damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Meh.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now that he doesn't have a shotgun he has to worry even MORE about snipers. And this is a nice anti-spy tool since it's area of effect.
Melee weapon:
I'll have to think about this one. I never use the fists.
Bofors cannon: Problems: relies on aiming accuracy, which is something they don't want the heavy to do. Other than that it sounds pretty cool.
Large Haildrum Collider: Kind of boring, basically just the scout's gun. Other than that it makes sense to give him a close range gun to replace the one he'd lose with the Bofors.
Ragegun: This one's cool. I like the idea of softening up the target and then punching them when they get close.
Boxing gloves/sledgehammer: I think they should have like SUPER knockback but do very little damage and have a slow attack speed. I really like the idea of knocking someone off the CP, and timing an punch/hammer swing PERFECTLY to knock a medic away from his uber target sounds like it would be the coolest thing ever.
Charged punch: Not really needed if you have the ragegun, I think, and although it's an interesting idea I like the sledgehammer. I can just picture the heavy swinging a HUUUUUGE hammer.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
TBH, I don't like the idea of mediminigun, simply because it feels like somethign that just would never be used.
You can't inch around to pick up dropped weapons, if you are camping an ammo dump, there is probably a med pack there, and if you are using a dispenser, then it is pointless.
The blunderbuss I like though!
My one note on it would be this: For the charging time have the heavy shoving it full of random hunks of scrap metal, cackling one of his "HOO HAHAHA"'s as he does it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2008
Here are my suggestions:
Primary Replacement : Bofors Still requires spinup/movement penalty. Fires a single shot with lower damage than RL but larger AoE. Possibly high knockback.
Secondary Replacement: Blast Plate Shield that lifts completely if it's hit with an explosive, no +charge
Melee: Headlock Grabs and opponent and drains the life from them(like in the "Meet The Scout video"). Grabbed player can still hit with melee attacks.
Edit: I don't know about the sledge. I like the idea but the pyro's all ready good for breaking up ubers at close range. I like the charging punch better.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Huge wall of text<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Healing minigun:
It certainly fits the ideals of the questions but I think it falls on one. Is it fun? Waiting outside battle to get healed by your minigun is not my ideal vision of the heavy.
Sticking around areas looking for ammunition instead of health is really just moving the problem across the room. Slower heal then a dispenser? just unspin and run back to a medpack/medic, it wont matter while in battle either with such slow rate. I also don't get a choice weather to get healed and waste ammo or just shooting, if I happen to have a medic buddy I don't want to run out of ammo double the rate just because the minigun tries to heal me after I get below 300hp.
Perhaps I shouldn't take your numbers literally?
Blunderbluss: I really love the idea to actually be able to shoot someone properly before they retreat around a corner and constantly pop-out-and-fire nades/stickys/rockets when you stand spun up. You did say the range is longer when charged up, no? I also think it either should be some freakshow of a blunderbluss (because a heavy with a puny gun is contradicting to his personality).
The bofors cannon again, it can be fixed if I just add that the explosion is more flat, so it damages a more around the ground then the soldiers sphere. It will make it easier to hit, and you can still just aim straight on target, so enemies will be encouraged to jump but at same time it will allow the heavy to blast for for maximum damage and knockback while they are in air. Alas, it doesn't quite fix it in close combat, the max range black smoke explosion will not require much accuracy at a medium distance but otherwise.. Increase rate of fire and lower the damage could work.
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
I'd go with Brass Knuckles as a mele replacement.
More damage Slower rate Adds a "bleed" effect, that is similar to being set on fire, but doesn't last as long and does slightly less damage per tick, because if the heavy punched you with brass knuckles on, you'd be cut.
Primary: Cannon: I am talking bout those things pirates used to pack 40+ into their ships. -Has Not much ammo (6?). -Fires single shots @ low rate of fire -Has a delay between clicking and firing (1-2 seconds) -Arcs slightly -Kills everything with hp<200 and continues to fly. -If it hits someone with hp>=200 it does 200 dmg and the cannonball does not continue.
Secondary: Medpack: -Basically the Heavy loses his shotgun and gains some self healing power. -Medpacks would have to be actively used and would heal about 30 HP/sec.
Melee: Boxing Gloves: -low damage -Have a huge knockback and provide a limited disorientation effect
I don't think there should be any healing at all, that's encroaching on the medic's field of expertise, even if it's just self-healing. Similar to how only pyros set people on fire, and only snipers can get headshots, and only spies can get backst-.. no wait.
I'm thinking of a burst-gun. If you've played Fallout 2, imagine the minigun in that game firing in burst-mode - it has a second or so of spinup, but then fires a frightening amount of boolits for a second and a half, absolutely shredding anything near the aiming reticle. Sharp dropoff in damage after medium range prevents it from being anti-sniper, as long as the snipers are in sniping range rather than trying to run up and headshot you from point-blank or something.
You can't move at all while the gun is spinning up or firing. After the burst is over, the gun has to spin down before it can spin up again, so if you miss your enemies initially, you'll be vulnerable, though able to run away better than the standard minigun would let you. Ammo is counted in number of bursts instead of total bulletcount, and you get maybe 10 of them.
It'd look like a slimmer minigun, maybe with belt-fed ammo instead of the drum hanging below.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
I like that idea Align.
My touch on it would be that it would be Clip fed. So you fire that one high intensity burst, and then have to have a long reload time.
Same idea, just different animation tbh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
You all remember this one? <img src="http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/weapons/metalstorm/metal_storm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->metalstorm<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b> I want the heavy to have it.
It showers bullets like a minigun but instead of getting bigger and bigger cone of fire it stays the same over a distance. Less damage then minigun to compensate, double RoF (ammo eats twice as fast) and same damage falloff over distance as minigun. <b>Needs to be "warmed up" just as long as the minigun before firing, cannot walk around with the gun in ready-to-fire mode like the minigun</b>. It must be warmed up after each session of firing. It allows full movement but the heavy cannot jump while firing and he cannot warm up in air. A slight overall movement penalty when firing but not nearly as much as when using spun up minigun. 200 ammo. While warming up the heavy first slows down but then returns to near full speed after warming up is complete, same for "cooling down", it's just a brief moment, more on this later.
Pros vs mini: Excel at medium and long range accuracy, can make a thick barrage of bullets without being really close.
Cons vs mini: Less area spread with bullets, less overall damage, cannot fire back instantly vs a spun up minigun coming around a corner, when you stop firing everyone knows you have to warm up again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One new model, new noisier sounds when firing, warming up and screaming, new smart crosshair to show it's different from minigun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have to be smarter when warming up, do it to early and everyone will see/hear you shooting prematurely, do it too late and they will already be shooting at you. Keep shooting continuous and you will end up overheated/out of ammo. It's just one press of a button and you will realize quickly that mouse2 doesn't have a function.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See above.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Constantly, it's your primary weapon and the new limits and freedoms forces you to change your playstyle from the minigun. When is it worth to fire? Shall I guess there is enemies behind this corner and waste some of my now faster draining ammo while I get around the corner? Shall I pop out and take a look then run back warmed up? Shall I pin the sniper in the right tunnel or just annoy him with a short burst?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If a soldier comes out infront of you as heavy, you start firing at him, normally the soldier would either run away, pop out a corner back and forth for a shot or charge at you. Now, the soldier can make the decision to wait around the corner to either make the heavy waste ammo or let him get closer. If it takes time for the heavy to get to the corner he might stop shooting thus leaving himself open to the soldier or the heavy keeps on shooting, either hoping, or knowing, there will be more ammo around when he faces the soldier or kills the soldier and his teammates are right behind him. The spy can still catch up to the heavy and stab him, especially when he warms up and slows down briefly, same goes for the sniper. In addition the spy can, if spotted, cloak and run around, the heavy will naturally fire randomly to hope and spot the spy but then again wasting precious ammo. The lesser damage in close combat compared to the minigun is evened by his mobility, soldier will not always get maximal damage shots because of his new found mobility. Thus he gets around better without a medic then he used to. He can avoid a bit less pyro fire if he warms up quickly but it should balance out with the lesser damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See above
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> He needs to anticipate if the enemy is running or attacking and with this new suggestion he also needs to decide if he shall wait until he sees them or hope to fire at the exact moment the enemy rounds the corner a early warmup and fire would alert them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't need to "spin-down" when you need to run, you can wait until you are around the corner as long as you keep shooting long enough. However, you immediately signal that you are vulnerable when you stop shooting. This actually makes you have to think if the enemy has been scared away long enough for you to retreat and get ammo and health and rewarm. Instead of the minigun which can be used to attack anyone who tries and surprise you while you go for medpack.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Increased ability due to movement bonus.
Shotgun replacement: Metal storm secondary fire
While you have to switch to weapon slot 2 you still use the same weapon for shooting a shotgun blast. A 36 barrel blast which does not spread over distance. The damage is normally slightly lower then a normal shotgun but if you hold down right mouse it warms up to a powerful blast which does NOT knockback enemies but do as much damage as a scattergun on a medium distance if hit properly (around 120). It has normal crit. Basically the longer warmup the more damage over distance you do. Warmup time is 2 seconds for full damage and brief slowdown like normal but not for two seconds.
That link will lead you to an album of all my pretty TF2 screenshots (I will update it as I take more). They are all tagged, too, so if you want to search for screenshots on a particular map or with a particular class or weapon or with gibs or something then you can do that. Finally, make sure to view everything in the largest size. Its prettier that way.
Svenpa, that doesn't really help the "I need a medic" problem the heavy has, and I'm not sure I like the idea of a more accurate minigun.
That link will lead you to an album of all my pretty TF2 screenshots (I will update it as I take more). They are all tagged, too, so if you want to search for screenshots on a particular map or with a particular class or weapon or with gibs or something then you can do that. Finally, make sure to view everything in the largest size. Its prettier that way.
Svenpa, that doesn't really help the "I need a medic" problem the heavy has, and I'm not sure I like the idea of a more accurate minigun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off: Nice collection, glad it's not just screenshots but they are properly cropped and whatnot. You use anything particular to remove hud?
Second: Not sure how you reason here, the problem is the heavy being too slow to avoid any damage and not having a proper weapon to dish that damage back without a medic, mostly because of distance. Both these are corrected in my idea and with followed weaknesses, both against his natural counters as well as ordinary heavies. It also contributes different and more interesting tactics as both heavy and enemy. The gun is accurate but the long range damage isn't like a sniper, the area you hit is still pretty big because of 36 different points where bullets hit. I'd really like specifics against this if I may.
Not mine, dunno who's it is as I found it on another forum quoted from someone else who found it elsewhere..blahblah. But, it's just way too awesome to not quote over here again, and it fits with the theme great. (and maybe it'll help some of ya think outside the box)
Fully restores the Heavy's health once every X seconds (abstracted by his appetite), and requires a short time (1-3 seconds) to eat: "WAS GOOD SANDWICH!!" "MMM VERY NICE!!" "BURRRP!!". The sandwich has an ammo capacity of 1. If the Heavy attempts to eat another sandwich before the cooldown is finished, he'll respond with sayings such as: "I NOT HUNGRY!!" "NOT FINISH DIGEST!!" "KILL NOW EAT LATER!!". Eating a sandwich does not douse flames. The Heavy cannot eat his sandwich while being healed, or 10 seconds after being healed. Alternatively, the effectiveness of the sandwich can be proportionate to the amount of time since he was healed.
Desirable features of this unlock include:
-The fact that the Heavy is given a way to heal by himself which helps break his dependance on the medic.
-Extremely limited synergy with Medic healing, as the Heavy cannot use the sandwich while being healed, or shortly thereafter. Given that the medic can heal, at minimum, 240 hp in the sandwich's 10 second post-healing cooldown, there is minimal gain in eating a sandwich while being assisted by a medic (it will encourage and allow the medic to heal others in that time though).
-The introduction of interesting new choices; the heavy must decide when it is best to consume his sandwich through good tactical and situational evaluation.
-While the sandwich affords the valuable ability to heal without a medic, the loss of the shotgun comes at the considerable cost of a ranged backup weapon, and the ability to initiate ranged attacks while mobile.
-The sandwich plays to the Heavy's popular nickname and alias; fatty.
-Further, the Heavy's formidable sandwich has already made its debut in the 'meet the scout' video.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1682459:date=Jul 3 2008, 07:47 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Jul 3 2008, 07:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682459"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's ridicolous, but it works.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah. I think I'd actually like to see it put in the game.
I don't think I'd ever want to give up a secondary weapon; running out of ammo for the minigun is tooc ommon and it will be even more common if I can survive longer without a medic.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1682463:date=Jul 3 2008, 09:52 AM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jul 3 2008, 09:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682463"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't think I'd ever want to give up a secondary weapon; running out of ammo for the minigun is too common and it will be even more common if I can survive longer without a medic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Very true, maybe it should replace the fists. Honestly not being able to fire while eating seems like enough of a drawback.
On the other hand the thing is the shotgun isn't that great of a weapon to begin with and ammo management is a large part of playing heavy. It would only reinforce that motif.
I think it would be more useful and fun as a fist weapon overall. Fists are good enough that it would still be a trade off, but the fact that fists are not very useful for a medic-less heavy so I think it would get more use there without being overpowered.
- If heavy is killed with sandwich in hand, it can be equipped by a scout if he so wish. Must be consumed while crouching on corpse.
I'll try to make this more interesting to read.
Minigun replacement: Mine-e-gun , steal-o-matic , Return to sender
It's basically the same minigun but as you shoot enemies (half*) the damage adds extra to your maximum health, it does not heal you though.
A heavy killing a heavy with 300hp will give him his maximum health of 450 hp WHEN he heals at a dispenser/medpack. Killing a soldier with 200 hp will only add up to 100 extra (400). A medic overhealing has no effect on this and a 50% medpack still only heals 50% (150) of his base 300hp regardless of earned maximum health. When the heavy has 450 hp it's permanent, it does not drop over time like medic overhealing, ofc ordinary damage strips it off. He still needs to damage the same amount after loosing the extra 150 to get it back up again. If he gets shot while a medic is overhealing him it will eat away his bonus health. So if the medic is killed and he has taken 150 points of damage it will not add up to 450 again less he evened it out with his own caused damage.
Medic can only overheal as much as the heavy has gained in damage. The ability to get healed up to 450 by a medic wears his entire life out once he has gotten it once.
Pros: Less reliability on medics, can hold a area longer himself with a medpack nearby.
Cons: Must actually do damage before it takes effect, cannot be overhealed without first doing damage
* = maybe
It a addresses the main issue so I wont bother making a big page of no-on-cares with the extras.
I thought medpacks added a set amount of health, not a percentage. Or something in-between at least. I get healed to full as scout-demoman from medium packs often, but they're not so filling as a heavy or soldier.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1682470:date=Jul 3 2008, 11:19 AM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Align @ Jul 3 2008, 11:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682470"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought medpacks added a set amount of health, not a percentage. Or something in-between at least. I get healed to full as scout-demoman from medium packs often, but they're not so filling as a heavy or soldier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, they come in flavors of 25, 75, and 200. It's not a percentage. Regardless he's talking about his idea for the heavy medpack sandwich if I am not mistaken.
Nope, they come in flavours of 25, 50 and 100. PERCENT. Anyone will be healed to full health by picking up a large medpack, even a heavy with only a sliver of health left. By extension, while a heavy will get a nice 75 health out of a small medpack (pill bottle), a scout will only get a paltry 31.
Edit: I'm actually not sure about the small health pickups. They might be more or less than 25%, though it's somewhere in that vicinity. I'm certain about the medium and large ones though.
<!--quoteo(post=1682461:date=Jul 3 2008, 07:23 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jul 3 2008, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682461"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. I think I'd actually like to see it put in the game.
The real question is, can a spy sap it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap1.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap2.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap3.jpg</a> <a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap4.jpg</a> Yes.
"But officer, I HAD to hit my baby with the wrench! A spy was sappin' it! No, you do-.. what are the handcuffs for? Git away from me! I dun nothin' wrong! COP SAPPIN' MAH FREEDOM!"
I'm gonna bet my money that the heavy pack won't actually introduce any new weapons. Instead the achievements will unlock a secondary model inspired by [WHO]THEM No one will be able to tell the difference.
Comments
I'm not really sure what I'd do with the heavy. Here are some ideas:
An unlockable minigun that heals you when it's spun up but not firing. It costs 1 ammo to heal you 1 point and you cannot move while the gun is spinning up (but you can while it is firing). It will not overheal you. This gun lets a heavy dispense with the medic, but in order to heal he has to have a constant source of ammunition, a place to be immobile, and a lot of time (it should heal slower than a dispenser). Maybe it only holds 150 bullets.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One new model (maybe the minigun is hooked up to a little miniature medic backpack), no new sounds, maybe one new effect.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Hold down right click to heal" is pretty simple, but if you just go around healing yourself you'll run out of ammo really fast and spend most of your time out of the fight, slowly patching your wounds. It also makes fights more interesting, because you can't run around with your gun spun up unless you're willing to heal up (or if you're at full health). You can only move if you're firing or not spun up at all. Now there's even more of a choice between spinning up and not.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea because it's not just "a gun for a heavy without a medic." Both guns are useful in both cases. The original minigun is better if you don't anticipate having much ammo around, because whether or not you have a medic, the healing minigun will suck up extra ammo when you're hurt. The original minigun can also be good if you don't have a medic because when there's no medic, it's important to be mobile, and removing the ability to move while spun up makes you less mobile.
The new minigun is better if there's plenty of ammo nearby and you don't have to get around much, like on defense. Whether or not you have a medic, it's a good idea to be able to heal that much faster. It's also good if you're very skilled and you're able to get around neutral/enemy territory without being instantly attacked, because if you're able to get away, you have a chance to heal up.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You get to think about it constantly because the decision about whether to spin up the gun or not has even more weight. Or at least it has a different weight.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dispensers near the front lines are much more important, because now the ammo + health they give is enough to get a heavy back into the fight even without a medic. So this encourages engineers to place the dispenser for the whole team, not for a source of metal in the back lines. It forces players to think about whether they want to hunt down a heavy and stop him from healing, or focus on the other enemies around and have to deal with a newly-healed heavy showing up again and again. It makes people think twice about getting too close to an enemy heavy, because if they die they'll give him ammo to continue his assault. And it frees medics from having to babysit a medic who is retreating anyways. Right now, if a heavy is really hurt and running away, a medic has to think about healing him because losing your heavy is a big problem. With this gun, the heavy could retreat and patch himself up, so the medic can stay in the front lines and worry about his heavy once he shows up.
Now for the tactical considerations:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even less ability to move while firing, plus he has to think about an ammo source if he's going to take damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is the enemy going to chase me? If they are, should I make my last stand and try to kill them, or find a place to hide and heal up? Are enemies going to die here and leave me ammo, or am I going to be high and dry?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even more important, because the more damage you take, the more ammo your gun is going to leech over time. If you take too much damage you might find yourself out of bullets that much faster.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No difference.
Shotgun unlock:
Some sort of blunderbuss-like thing. Primary fire would shoot a blast that works a lot like the shotgun or the scout's scattergun. It would have a very short effective range. Also, it would push people back a bit, like when they're hit with crits or a sentry gun. Secondary fire would charge up the blunderbuss. The longer you hold it, the more it starts to shake. When you release it, it explodes with a big boom, pushing you back a bit, pushing your targets forward depending on how long it's been held down, making a big explosion, and doing some damage. The idea is that the damage and more important the effective arc of fire would get bigger as you hold it down. You would see the charge build up like an ubercharge or something, but it only takes 5 seconds to fully charge. When charging you move slowly, but not as slowly as when the minigun is spun up. Otherwise you move just as fast as when you have the shotgun. It only carries 5 or 10 shots. A critical hit should set people on fire just for fun. But it will never crit on a non-charged shot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A new model, new sounds, a new effect for the explosion. It would be cool if the heavy would go "BOOM! HAHA" and other stuff like that when he releases a fully charged shot.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first you can use it like a cross between the shotgun/scattergun (less damage than the scout gun and less accurate than the shotgun, but more accurate than the scattergun and more damage than the shotgun), with a charge up whenever you see lots of enemies, but when to charge up, how much to charge, how large an area of effect each charge has, when to use it instead of the minigun, etc.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The shotgun is still better for long range engagements, which is something you REALLY need to think about as a heavy because that's your big weakness: at long range people can run away from the minigun so the shotgun is your only option. Also, the shotgun will reload faster, and since the blunderbuss never crits unless you charge it up, the shotgun is better for chasing someone because the lucky crit/extra range makes it a better chasing weapon.
The blunderbuss is better for fighting large masses of enemies, for doing more damage, or for managing a battle, since you can push your targets around a bit. If your minigun is out of ammo or you just want to be more mobile, the blunderbuss lets you run around more, and only restricts you when you charge up, and even then it's less of a restriction. The minigun is in some ways a good crowd control weapon, but the blunderbuss lets you hit many people at once. Also it would be cool to let off a fully charge blunderbuss shot to weaken people, then pull out the minigun for the mass murder.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Should I use the blunderbuss? Should I use the minigun? Maybe I should swap to the shotgun to annoy snipers. Etc. Unlike the shotgun, which is used where the minigun isn't, the blunderbuss would be an either/or thing with your primary weapon, like the flamer/axestinguisher for the pyro.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People now have to be afraid of bunching up even if there aren't any demomen/soldiers around. The blunderbuss at full charge can push an uber away from his medic, or vice versa, which is good because right now the heavy is 100% screwed if an uber shows up. He can't do jack. Don't even say run away because that never works. His only hope is to have lots of teammates around to get murdered instead of him.
Now for the tactical considerations:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't just go around shooting off your blunderbuss. It's best when it hits multiple people and when it's charged up. Do you wait for a scout to show up before you let off the shot, or do you shoot the 3 people in front of you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course you have to anticipate whether people are going to disperse or just crowd in closer for more damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meh.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now that he doesn't have a shotgun he has to worry even MORE about snipers. And this is a nice anti-spy tool since it's area of effect.
Melee weapon:
I'll have to think about this one. I never use the fists.
Svenpa's suggestions:
Bofors cannon:
Problems: relies on aiming accuracy, which is something they don't want the heavy to do. Other than that it sounds pretty cool.
Large Haildrum Collider:
Kind of boring, basically just the scout's gun. Other than that it makes sense to give him a close range gun to replace the one he'd lose with the Bofors.
Ragegun:
This one's cool. I like the idea of softening up the target and then punching them when they get close.
Boxing gloves/sledgehammer:
I think they should have like SUPER knockback but do very little damage and have a slow attack speed. I really like the idea of knocking someone off the CP, and timing an punch/hammer swing PERFECTLY to knock a medic away from his uber target sounds like it would be the coolest thing ever.
Charged punch:
Not really needed if you have the ragegun, I think, and although it's an interesting idea I like the sledgehammer. I can just picture the heavy swinging a HUUUUUGE hammer.
You can't inch around to pick up dropped weapons, if you are camping an ammo dump, there is probably a med pack there, and if you are using a dispenser, then it is pointless.
The blunderbuss I like though!
My one note on it would be this:
For the charging time have the heavy shoving it full of random hunks of scrap metal, cackling one of his "HOO HAHAHA"'s as he does it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Primary Replacement : Bofors
Still requires spinup/movement penalty. Fires a single shot with lower damage than RL but larger AoE. Possibly high knockback.
Secondary Replacement: Blast Plate
Shield that lifts completely if it's hit with an explosive, no +charge
Melee: Headlock
Grabs and opponent and drains the life from them(like in the "Meet The Scout video"). Grabbed player can still hit with melee attacks.
Edit: I don't know about the sledge. I like the idea but the pyro's all ready good for breaking up ubers at close range. I like the charging punch better.
Healing minigun:
It certainly fits the ideals of the questions but I think it falls on one. Is it fun? Waiting outside battle to get healed by your minigun is not my ideal vision of the heavy.
Sticking around areas looking for ammunition instead of health is really just moving the problem across the room. Slower heal then a dispenser? just unspin and run back to a medpack/medic, it wont matter while in battle either with such slow rate. I also don't get a choice weather to get healed and waste ammo or just shooting, if I happen to have a medic buddy I don't want to run out of ammo double the rate just because the minigun tries to heal me after I get below 300hp.
Perhaps I shouldn't take your numbers literally?
Blunderbluss: I really love the idea to actually be able to shoot someone properly before they retreat around a corner and constantly pop-out-and-fire nades/stickys/rockets when you stand spun up. You did say the range is longer when charged up, no? I also think it either should be some freakshow of a blunderbluss (because a heavy with a puny gun is contradicting to his personality).
The bofors cannon again, it can be fixed if I just add that the explosion is more flat, so it damages a more around the ground then the soldiers sphere. It will make it easier to hit, and you can still just aim straight on target, so enemies will be encouraged to jump but at same time it will allow the heavy to blast for for maximum damage and knockback while they are in air. Alas, it doesn't quite fix it in close combat, the max range black smoke explosion will not require much accuracy at a medium distance but otherwise..
Increase rate of fire and lower the damage could work.
More damage
Slower rate
Adds a "bleed" effect, that is similar to being set on fire, but doesn't last as long and does slightly less damage per tick, because if the heavy punched you with brass knuckles on, you'd be cut.
Cannon: I am talking bout those things pirates used to pack 40+ into their ships.
-Has Not much ammo (6?).
-Fires single shots @ low rate of fire
-Has a delay between clicking and firing (1-2 seconds)
-Arcs slightly
-Kills everything with hp<200 and continues to fly.
-If it hits someone with hp>=200 it does 200 dmg and the cannonball does not continue.
Secondary:
Medpack:
-Basically the Heavy loses his shotgun and gains some self healing power.
-Medpacks would have to be actively used and would heal about 30 HP/sec.
Melee:
Boxing Gloves:
-low damage
-Have a huge knockback and provide a limited disorientation effect
You can't move at all while the gun is spinning up or firing. After the burst is over, the gun has to spin down before it can spin up again, so if you miss your enemies initially, you'll be vulnerable, though able to run away better than the standard minigun would let you.
Ammo is counted in number of bursts instead of total bulletcount, and you get maybe 10 of them.
It'd look like a slimmer minigun, maybe with belt-fed ammo instead of the drum hanging below.
My touch on it would be that it would be Clip fed. So you fire that one high intensity burst, and then have to have a long reload time.
Same idea, just different animation tbh <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
Minigun replacement:
You all remember this one? <img src="http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/weapons/metalstorm/metal_storm.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<b><!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->metalstorm<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></b>
I want the heavy to have it.
It showers bullets like a minigun but instead of getting bigger and bigger cone of fire it stays the same over a distance.
Less damage then minigun to compensate, double RoF (ammo eats twice as fast) and same damage falloff over distance as minigun.
<b>Needs to be "warmed up" just as long as the minigun before firing, cannot walk around with the gun in ready-to-fire mode like the minigun</b>. It must be warmed up after each session of firing. It allows full movement but the heavy cannot jump while firing and he cannot warm up in air. A slight overall movement penalty when firing but not nearly as much as when using spun up minigun. 200 ammo.
While warming up the heavy first slows down but then returns to near full speed after warming up is complete, same for "cooling down", it's just a brief moment, more on this later.
Pros vs mini: Excel at medium and long range accuracy, can make a thick barrage of bullets without being really close.
Cons vs mini: Less area spread with bullets, less overall damage, cannot fire back instantly vs a spun up minigun coming around a corner, when you stop firing everyone knows you have to warm up again.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How much work is it? How many new models, sounds, effects, etc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One new model, new noisier sounds when firing, warming up and screaming, new smart crosshair to show it's different from minigun.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does it deepen the Heavy's skill curve? Is it easy to learn? Hard to master?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to be smarter when warming up, do it to early and everyone will see/hear you shooting prematurely, do it too late and they will already be shooting at you. Keep shooting continuous and you will end up overheated/out of ammo. It's just one press of a button and you will realize quickly that mouse2 doesn't have a function.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it an interesting tool to choose relative to the base Heavy weapon it's replacing? What scenarios can you envision in which each is useful? What arguments can you raise for why each is better than the other?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How often does the Heavy need to think about it? Is it something he uses once every 5 minutes, or is it something he needs to be constantly thinking about? A greater impact on player decision making is generally a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Constantly, it's your primary weapon and the new limits and freedoms forces you to change your playstyle from the minigun. When is it worth to fire? Shall I guess there is enemies behind this corner and waste some of my now faster draining ammo while I get around the corner? Shall I pop out and take a look then run back warmed up? Shall I pin the sniper in the right tunnel or just annoy him with a short burst?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How many other features of the game does it affect? Often, the best ideas are "economical", with a small set of required actions, but a wide set of resulting effects.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a soldier comes out infront of you as heavy, you start firing at him, normally the soldier would either run away, pop out a corner back and forth for a shot or charge at you. Now, the soldier can make the decision to wait around the corner to either make the heavy waste ammo or let him get closer. If it takes time for the heavy to get to the corner he might stop shooting thus leaving himself open to the soldier or the heavy keeps on shooting, either hoping, or knowing, there will be more ammo around when he faces the soldier or kills the soldier and his teammates are right behind him. The spy can still catch up to the heavy and stab him, especially when he warms up and slows down briefly, same goes for the sniper. In addition the spy can, if spotted, cloak and run around, the heavy will naturally fire randomly to hope and spot the spy but then again wasting precious ammo. The lesser damage in close combat compared to the minigun is evened by his mobility, soldier will not always get maximal damage shots because of his new found mobility. Thus he gets around better without a medic then he used to. He can avoid a bit less pyro fire if he warms up quickly but it should balance out with the lesser damage.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Being in the right place before he starts firing, because he has little ability to move while firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See above
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good anticipation of enemy behavior, for both the above point and because his minigun needs to be spun up before firing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He needs to anticipate if the enemy is running or attacking and with this new suggestion he also needs to decide if he shall wait until he sees them or hope to fire at the exact moment the enemy rounds the corner a early warmup and fire would alert them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to estimate the amount of damage he's taking. It takes time for the minigun to spin down, so he needs to be able to know when it's time to retreat several seconds before his health has run out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't need to "spin-down" when you need to run, you can wait until you are around the corner as long as you keep shooting long enough. However, you immediately signal that you are vulnerable when you stop shooting. This actually makes you have to think if the enemy has been scared away long enough for you to retreat and get ammo and health and rewarm. Instead of the minigun which can be used to attack anyone who tries and surprise you while you go for medpack.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The ability to keep firing at a target while still keeping an eye out for other dangers, in particular Snipers & Spies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Increased ability due to movement bonus.
Shotgun replacement: Metal storm secondary fire
While you have to switch to weapon slot 2 you still use the same weapon for shooting a shotgun blast. A 36 barrel blast which does not spread over distance. The damage is normally slightly lower then a normal shotgun but if you hold down right mouse it warms up to a powerful blast which does NOT knockback enemies but do as much damage as a scattergun on a medium distance if hit properly (around 120). It has normal crit. Basically the longer warmup the more damage over distance you do. Warmup time is 2 seconds for full damage and brief slowdown like normal but not for two seconds.
That link will lead you to an album of all my pretty TF2 screenshots (I will update it as I take more). They are all tagged, too, so if you want to search for screenshots on a particular map or with a particular class or weapon or with gibs or something then you can do that. Finally, make sure to view everything in the largest size. Its prettier that way.
Svenpa, that doesn't really help the "I need a medic" problem the heavy has, and I'm not sure I like the idea of a more accurate minigun.
That link will lead you to an album of all my pretty TF2 screenshots (I will update it as I take more). They are all tagged, too, so if you want to search for screenshots on a particular map or with a particular class or weapon or with gibs or something then you can do that. Finally, make sure to view everything in the largest size. Its prettier that way.
Svenpa, that doesn't really help the "I need a medic" problem the heavy has, and I'm not sure I like the idea of a more accurate minigun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off: Nice collection, glad it's not just screenshots but they are properly cropped and whatnot. You use anything particular to remove hud?
Second: Not sure how you reason here, the problem is the heavy being too slow to avoid any damage and not having a proper weapon to dish that damage back without a medic, mostly because of distance. Both these are corrected in my idea and with followed weaknesses, both against his natural counters as well as ordinary heavies. It also contributes different and more interesting tactics as both heavy and enemy. The gun is accurate but the long range damage isn't like a sniper, the area you hit is still pretty big because of 36 different points where bullets hit. I'd really like specifics against this if I may.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Secondary: Giant Sandwich
Fully restores the Heavy's health once every X seconds (abstracted by his appetite), and requires a short time (1-3 seconds) to eat: "WAS GOOD SANDWICH!!" "MMM VERY NICE!!" "BURRRP!!". The sandwich has an ammo capacity of 1. If the Heavy attempts to eat another sandwich before the cooldown is finished, he'll respond with sayings such as: "I NOT HUNGRY!!" "NOT FINISH DIGEST!!" "KILL NOW EAT LATER!!". Eating a sandwich does not douse flames. The Heavy cannot eat his sandwich while being healed, or 10 seconds after being healed. Alternatively, the effectiveness of the sandwich can be proportionate to the amount of time since he was healed.
Desirable features of this unlock include:
-The fact that the Heavy is given a way to heal by himself which helps break his dependance on the medic.
-Extremely limited synergy with Medic healing, as the Heavy cannot use the sandwich while being healed, or shortly thereafter. Given that the medic can heal, at minimum, 240 hp in the sandwich's 10 second post-healing cooldown, there is minimal gain in eating a sandwich while being assisted by a medic (it will encourage and allow the medic to heal others in that time though).
-The introduction of interesting new choices; the heavy must decide when it is best to consume his sandwich through good tactical and situational evaluation.
-While the sandwich affords the valuable ability to heal without a medic, the loss of the shotgun comes at the considerable cost of a ranged backup weapon, and the ability to initiate ranged attacks while mobile.
-The sandwich plays to the Heavy's popular nickname and alias; fatty.
-Further, the Heavy's formidable sandwich has already made its debut in the 'meet the scout' video.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. I think I'd actually like to see it put in the game.
The real question is, can a spy sap it?
Very true, maybe it should replace the fists. Honestly not being able to fire while eating seems like enough of a drawback.
On the other hand the thing is the shotgun isn't that great of a weapon to begin with and ammo management is a large part of playing heavy. It would only reinforce that motif.
I think it would be more useful and fun as a fist weapon overall. Fists are good enough that it would still be a trade off, but the fact that fists are not very useful for a medic-less heavy so I think it would get more use there without being overpowered.
- If heavy is killed with sandwich in hand, it can be equipped by a scout if he so wish. Must be consumed while crouching on corpse.
I'll try to make this more interesting to read.
Minigun replacement: Mine-e-gun , steal-o-matic , Return to sender
It's basically the same minigun but as you shoot enemies (half*) the damage adds extra to your maximum health, it does not heal you though.
A heavy killing a heavy with 300hp will give him his maximum health of 450 hp WHEN he heals at a dispenser/medpack. Killing a soldier with 200 hp will only add up to 100 extra (400). A medic overhealing has no effect on this and a 50% medpack still only heals 50% (150) of his base 300hp regardless of earned maximum health. When the heavy has 450 hp it's permanent, it does not drop over time like medic overhealing, ofc ordinary damage strips it off. He still needs to damage the same amount after loosing the extra 150 to get it back up again. If he gets shot while a medic is overhealing him it will eat away his bonus health. So if the medic is killed and he has taken 150 points of damage it will not add up to 450 again less he evened it out with his own caused damage.
Medic can only overheal as much as the heavy has gained in damage. The ability to get healed up to 450 by a medic wears his entire life out once he has gotten it once.
Pros: Less reliability on medics, can hold a area longer himself with a medpack nearby.
Cons: Must actually do damage before it takes effect, cannot be overhealed without first doing damage
* = maybe
It a addresses the main issue so I wont bother making a big page of no-on-cares with the extras.
Yes, they come in flavors of 25, 75, and 200. It's not a percentage. Regardless he's talking about his idea for the heavy medpack sandwich if I am not mistaken.
Edit: I'm actually not sure about the small health pickups. They might be more or less than 25%, though it's somewhere in that vicinity. I'm certain about the medium and large ones though.
The real question is, can a spy sap it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap2.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap3.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.mine-dog.net/files/comics/sap4.jpg</a>
Yes.
No one will be able to tell the difference.