I think the easiest way to solve this would be for all of us to join the NS OT group and get in a server. We'll play a whole bunch and you can all go pyro and try to kill me or whatever.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1681845:date=Jun 23 2008, 03:31 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 23 2008, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the easiest way to solve this would be for all of us to join the NS OT group and get in a server. We'll play a whole bunch and you can all go pyro and try to kill me or whatever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember, every time you kill Tycho a Jedi gets his lightsaber.
<!--quoteo(post=1681846:date=Jun 23 2008, 03:16 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 23 2008, 03:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Remember, every time you kill Tycho a Jedi gets his lightsaber.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And every time I ubercharge one of you I get closer to a kritzkrieg.
my problem is that I still suck as pyro. I don't know why exactly, but I end up in a situation where normally I would be toast (if roles were reversed), but instead I end up dieing to rockets/other pyros/what ever.
then again, same map I had one pyro that would dominate me no matter what, I just could not kill him. I would run into him when I was over full HP and still die with him having about 1/2 hp, and it was nothing but the 2 of us spraying each other with flames.
Meh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have the exact problem, this one guy way defending goldrush 1 as backburner pyro and he topped the list of both teams in score, he just wouldn't die in a pyro vs pyro fight, nor vs a soldier but that was because he strafed jumped or something crazy like that.
I think the crit is silent on many occasions, I've been burned in the back and died nearly instantly but no crit was ever heard.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Sounds a lot like spy backstab register problems, which they still haven't adressed properly and this time it is in a much wider cone of fire (engine/net lag?)
I used to top scoreboards regularly as pyro before it was cool. everyone used to think pyro sucked so no one played it and no one knew how to counter someone who knew how to play it. now the class is having its moment in the spotlight so maybe we'll actually see more decent pyros... though I wouldn't count on it. I never realized how bad people are until I joined an achievement server and was trying to give people the 'burn a rocket jumping soldier' achievement. I rocked jumped repeatedly in front of multiple pyros, with them looking straight at me, waiting for me to rocket jump... and they still couldn't light me on fire before I hit the ground.
one thing I will say about this patch is that it finishes the task of completely castrating the spy. Everyone has already known to spy check for months, known the warning signs of a spy, etc. people have largely stopped playing as spies because of their low survivability and lack of any strong advantages... and now the spy's biggest advantage - the backstab - gets given to the pyro, only better?
pyros were already better spies than spies, because they could ambush just as well, had more health, and could actually damage someone who was facing them... I'm guessing that now, the spy will have one use and one use only, and that's to sap sentries, and even that only works if you're well coordinated with your team who will actually charge on your command when you sap things.
Every time I feel sorry for spies the feeling is instantly squashed by the memory of too many facial backstabs. The more of those backstards get immolated, the better.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--> Join the NSOT steam chat now. TF2 time is at hand! <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> -
Well that's cool. New TF2 update does some stuff, including lowering medic milestone achievements to match the pyro unlockable model...
<!--quoteo(post=1681865:date=Jun 23 2008, 07:06 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jun 23 2008, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681865"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well that's cool. New TF2 update does some stuff, including lowering medic milestone achievements to match the pyro unlockable model...
Maybe I'll actually get those medic weapons now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Indeed! My joy is rather palpable, as my badly desired ubersaw is now less of a pipe dream and more of a pipe reality.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1681868:date=Jun 23 2008, 09:56 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Jun 23 2008, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681868"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Indeed! My joy is rather palpable, as my badly desired ubersaw is now less of a pipe dream and more of a pipe reality.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Kritzkreig I could care less about... but the ubersaw I want.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1681872:date=Jun 23 2008, 10:32 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Jun 23 2008, 10:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681872"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so, am I just incompetent or did they ninja nerf sticky jumping?
I can no longer seem to dual sticky jump with out just insta gibing my self (this is from full HP)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think so.
Just make sure you're a bit further away before you detonate. Don't do it right on top and you won't die. You'll be down to like 40 hp though.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1681874:date=Jun 23 2008, 10:45 PM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jun 23 2008, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681874"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One sticky does more than it used to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That explains <i>a lot</i>. I thought I was just being nub(which is probably true anyway), but there were a couple situations where I tried to jump out of danger and just gibbed instead.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited June 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1681884:date=Jun 24 2008, 07:58 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jun 24 2008, 07:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1681884"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That explains <i>a lot</i>. I thought I was just being nub(which is probably true anyway), but there were a couple situations where I tried to jump out of danger and just gibbed instead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was sucking so bad when I was playing with you guys. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> After you left I shot to the top of the scoreboard and managed to get the backburner and the axetinguisher.
I need to find a farm server to get my medic achievements. -.-'
edit: Success. Got some of the stupider medic achievements like blunt trauma and big pharma there... Also did a couple of the slightly more reasonable ones. I am now a proud owner of an ubersaw. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
I hit milestone three for the pyro last night, 100% legitimately. I promptly got the three-axe-kills-in-a-life achievement, trying it out. You can flame a heavy for a second or so and hit him once, dead heavy.
I'm only at 17/22 on the medic front though. Alas.
I honestly did't want to pee on your parade, but getting milestone three legitimately NOW isn't all that hard. Heck, even I've got both of 'em.
And while the axtinguisher isn't bad per se, the only use I see for it is in combination with the normal flamethrower, since you don't crit from behind with that one. In order to survive long enough to set a heavy on fire (for long enough to get him under 200 health, roughly), then pull out your axe and hit him, you pretty much need to ambush him, preferably from behind. In such a situation the backburner will kill faster. And I'll argue that the backburner is the gun of choice once you have it. Air blast is nice, but not fifty-hitpoints-and-possible-backstabs nice.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited July 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1682361:date=Jul 1 2008, 04:45 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jul 1 2008, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682361"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I honestly did't want to pee on your parade, but getting milestone three legitimately NOW isn't all that hard. Heck, even I've got both of 'em.
And while the axtinguisher isn't bad per se, the only use I see for it is in combination with the normal flamethrower, since you don't crit from behind with that one. In order to survive long enough to set a heavy on fire (for long enough to get him under 200 health, roughly), then pull out your axe and hit him, you pretty much need to ambush him, preferably from behind. In such a situation the backburner will kill faster. And I'll argue that the backburner is the gun of choice once you have it. Air blast is nice, but not fifty-hitpoints-and-possible-backstabs nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's one map where the backburner is totally broken. Like absolutely. I think it's cp_well...
[time passes]
Yup, that it is. Checked at TF2 Wiki... As long as you've got your shotgun and backburner a pyro can destroy on that map. In the water I can normally kill people with my shotgun... I swim behind the other team, pop out, and get about 5-6 kills at once. It's almost too easy. I had I think 30 kills to 4 deaths or so in the last game I played there.
Of course, I was playing so well and holding my team up so the other team started filling up with pyros to try to stop me or try my tactics... This meant that when I got bored and went to switch to another class I kept getting lit on fire and just could not be as useful to my team as when I was pyro.
It was fun at first to rampage the other team so hard, but 1 person vs the other 8-16 on the other team is a hard thing to do. I was holding them back (really ambushing them so they couldn't move forward) but not making much ground either. So it was rather frustrating.
Yup. Half story there, half a point.
Backburner is overpowered. Well is especially broken for it... If I have the backburner it means I have that extra 50 health in the water and while I can't flame in the water my shotgun works pretty damn well.
[more time passes and I press the edit button] Also: <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed bug that caused Demomen to take a small amount of extra damage from their own grenades and fly farther using them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like we won't be killed by two again, and that it wasn't actually a ninja buff/nerf, just an accident. (Probably related to the change to rocket jumping)
X_StickmanNot good enough for a custom title.Join Date: 2003-04-15Member: 15533Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1682359:date=Jul 1 2008, 09:33 PM:name=Scythe)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Scythe @ Jul 1 2008, 09:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I hit milestone three for the pyro last night, 100% legitimately. I promptly got the three-axe-kills-in-a-life achievement, trying it out. You can flame a heavy for a second or so and hit him once, dead heavy.
I'm only at 17/22 on the medic front though. Alas.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I got the "3 and 6 axe kills in one life" achievements in one life. On 2fort, too. Went down through the sewers and out of their base and got pretty much the whole team from behind. I actually did a little whoop and dance in my chair, it was so stupidly awesome and lucky.
Also on the same map (same game, too), I switched to medic (not even out of an attempt to farm, we just needed a medic) and managed to get that "bedside manner" achievement (the "heal someone as they get an achievement" one, which I was pretty amazed at, since the person I was healing was neither a pyro or a medic), so now I have milestone 3 for pyro and medic.
And now I just cba playing. Have the levels of pyros died down yet?
At first, it was massive pyromania, then it was a bit less, now there are about 2-3 per team in average and 1 or 2 of those have mastered the pyro some way I never get to understand. Scout is basically dead as soon as he sees a pyro who reach him with flames, faster then the blink of an eye. Backburners also need 4-6 perfect shots from scattergun to die, less you ambush them from behind. At least heavies are popular and really great at mowing down pyros.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Goal: Make the Heavy more viable when he has no Medic to pair with.
Constraints:
It shouldn't have a cumulative effect when being healed by a Medic as well. Heavy/Medic pairs do pretty well as it is.
It shouldn't significantly change the Heavy's role, relative to other classes. In particular, it shouldn't significantly encroach on another class's role.
It should be understandable for both the user and the player it's being used on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are other constraints too if you go to <b>Svenpa</b>'s second link, but those are the main less obvious ones.
The first idea that comes to mind is give the heavy a front only shield that replaces the shot gun.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
edited July 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1682396:date=Jul 2 2008, 09:07 AM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Jul 2 2008, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682396"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first, it was massive pyromania, then it was a bit less, now there are about 2-3 per team in average and 1 or 2 of those have mastered the pyro some way I never get to understand. Scout is basically dead as soon as he sees a pyro who reach him with flames, faster then the blink of an eye. Backburners also need 4-6 perfect shots from scattergun to die, less you ambush them from behind. At least heavies are popular and really great at mowing down pyros.
They encourage thinking of heavy unlockable solutions: <a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... If they do heavy next that will do even more to kill the pyromania... I mean I already go heavy when there are tons of pyros and ask for a medic to shadow me... It's ridiculous to just sit there mowing down a full team of pyros. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That gun looks like it could be really good... My guesses on it's behavior:
It will shoot one explosive round a moderate distance, and will only have room for one round in the chamber. (and will need reloading after this). When shooting you will be slowed down for a second as you brace for impact, but after the shot you will quickly be able to retreat as you reload. This will mean that if you don't have a medic you can pop out and explode a bunch of guys and then retreat. This will not be overpowered when you do have a medic due to the long reload time, but the ability to escape quickly after firing will mean that you can be independent.
So in short... remove spin down time for more independence, require reload after shot so that medic combo doesn't get buffed.
-- I can't think of anything for melee or secondary weapon...
Shotgun replacement I just can't think of anything at all because I find the shotgun to already be a very useful weapon and I don't have any problems with it.
Ideas for melee replacement could be a grapple/hug that would slowly choke out the opponent and hold them still so your team could shoot them, or in the case of ubers... would at least prevent them from moving forward. Or like boxing gloves that will lower damage but increase pushback... Maybe increase firerate too.
<!--quoteo(post=1682398:date=Jul 2 2008, 09:27 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jul 2 2008, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first idea that comes to mind is give the heavy a front only shield that replaces the shot gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a bad idea... but I think would further limit independence... Because then you would need teammates to take out any ambushers because you wouldn't have the fast close range weapon that the shotgun is. Also, think about how shields changed CS back in the day... We would suddenly see tons of heavy shield pushing with demo's firing over them at the sentries. No need to even bother with uber after that.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited July 2008
<!--quoteo(post=1682400:date=Jul 2 2008, 09:36 AM:name=Psyke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Psyke @ Jul 2 2008, 09:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, think about how shields changed CS back in the day... We would suddenly see tons of heavy shield pushing with demo's firing over them at the sentries. No need to even bother with uber after that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm I hadn't considered the effect on turrets. Maybe have the shield raise up as it takes damage? And it can't be swapped until it's been "unhit" for a full second?
The other problem I see is healing a heavy while he has a shield. Just preventing healing seems lame, but I'm not sure how to make the heavy "better" without a medic, while not making him even better with a medic. How could having more health/longer life be bad, especially when you're a meatshield? I don't see another way around than disabling medic healing or at least +charge.
remiremedy [blu.knight]Join Date: 2003-11-18Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
<!--quoteo(post=1682405:date=Jul 2 2008, 09:46 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jul 2 2008, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682405"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just preventing healing seems lame, but I'm not sure how to make the heavy "better" without a medic, while not making him even better with a medic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's why I was suggesting a faster retreat time paired up with a reload time. It would allow for you to get out of damage faster as a heavy, but wouldn't really be buffed when you have a medic because you'd have to reload so you wouldn't be able to just sit there. (You'd end up taking a lot more damage)
I don't think it's possible to completely prevent a medic buff. You're making the heavy better so in some way it will be better with a medic as well. No matter what, medic lets you live longer. You can't just prevent medics from healing because that would be bad design (confusing to new players, etc).
It sounds like they could change the early healing rate to reduce the effectiveness of the medic combo. (From the blog it said there is a difference between when you have just taken damage and when it's been a while)
Would be one way to nerf the medic combo while buffing the heavy. I don't much like that idea though as it's still not very clear.
Arguably any class gains a benefit from medic backup. The overhealing alone is incredibly useful, and constant health gain allows them to stay on the front lines longer. The heavy gains the most benefit because he is unable to quickly retreat at a whim and because of his massive health when overhealed. The changed heavy, therefore, shouldn't gain more than anyone else, and less than a regular heavy.
Currently, a solo heavy has trouble realizing his full potential. Between getting into position, spinning up, spinning down and getting away, there's not much time left for firing. He could just attack suicidally, but his low foot speed makes it tedious to get back to the fight after respawning. With medic backup, he lives longer, can stay in the fight longer, and doesn't have to think about escape as early and often.
So I concur: The way forward is to decrease or eliminate the heavy's movement penalty for firing, allowing him to move in and out of combat faster. I also suggest giving him a weapon with longer range, to get him out of the close range fighting where his low speed makes him a sitting duck. Finally, reduce his damage potential. His new weapon should be incapable of dealing as much damage over time as the minigun, in order to compensate for the other advantages. And to further reduce his reliance on medics (and the benefit gained from them), give it a low firing rate, so it becomes advantageous for him to move in and out of cover rather than staying out in the open.
So the bofors cannon looks like the obvious choice.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1682412:date=Jul 2 2008, 10:44 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Jul 2 2008, 10:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682412"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So the bofors cannon looks like the obvious choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not so sure. I would have guessed that too except for reading the dev blog Sven linked. It changes the entire play style of a heavy to be more like a soldier which they are trying to avoid according to the blog.
Hmm, good point. I don't really see how you can remove the heavy's reliance on the medic without changing his playstyle though. Wonder what they'll come up with.
Alright, I'm going to bounce some ideas around here before I try to make a post in tf2 forums.
Minigun replacement
If we take the cannon idea and replace the minigun and say it fires explosive rounds at a rate of 2 per second with less splash then soldier rockets and less damage (crits happen in pairs). It will also have some fall off like the pyro flaregun, it also travels faster then rockets. 25 in ammo. While this gun will grant him mobility while firing it will also knockback him slightly after each shot and it will not work while airborne or increase backwards speed. In addition he wont be able to move for few milliseconds exactly when firing to avoid constant jumping and strafing. No shooting while jumping. Accuracy will be roughly like spy's magnum. Damage increase the closer the target is but the heavy take full damage himself if shooting a enemy in close combat. Maximum damage and heavy knockback on airborne targets (it is a AA gun). The range is also limited but make a bit extra damage and grants knockback when the max range is reached (explodes in a temporary black smoke cloud midair, again, it's a AA gun). This will let him stand if favourable positions to make a midair wall of damage even without a wall.
The effect while shooting should be a transparent cloud which grows after each continuous shot but will never block your view, just make it harder to see colors etc.
The sound should be heavy on the bass and add extra voice files to the heavy, ex, "Ho. Ho. Ho. Hooo" to the RoF. "YOU. DIE. NOW. BABIES".
Why? As I think we all agree on, the heavy is a area denial class, specified in defence. This will let him bombard corners to discourage players to advance but at same time not have perfect accuracy to pinpoint <b>snipers</b> aiming back at him. The knockback from firing will keep him from shooting sneakily at corners and blowing everyone apart, now he must either place himself in a big open place to fire efficiently or just shoot at a lesser rate. This will also make him much better against <b>soldiers and demomen</b> at a distance. Due to lower splash and firerate the heavy cannot simply shoot the ground under double jumping <b>scouts</b> and have to try and pick them off in air or on ground, which will be troublesome. <b>Pyros</b> will have about same trouble as with soldiers but now they cannot be juggled, only pushed back if they jump. <b>Spies</b> will have it slightly harder stabbing him directly but also have it easier to dodge and run away cloaked or circle stab the heavy. <b>Engineers</b> will have more trouble from the heavy but can take the decision to build further away so the shots don't reach (the range is same as the turret, so if the heavy reach the turret, so does it reach back). Heavies won't get the same advantage when really close to turrets as to using minigun. Other <b>Heavies</b> will mow him down in close combat and still might win if they get a crit stream but otherwise they are ######ed, can't find a good way to balance this.
I bet it will be a lot easier to understand if you could play with it.
Shotgun replacement: Large Haildrum Collider Really large shotgun, particularly large barrel. Massive point blank damage but hefty falloff. Why? The cannon is a medium weapon, this is close range one. Slightly lower RoF.
Shotgun replacement v2: Ragegun Edit: The damage you cause is added permanently to one charged punch, max 200 damage. Normal shotgun without crits. If you soak up 150 damage from charged punch you can add 50 from this to it, soak damage decrease over time, this does not, but they add ontop of each other. So if you have 200 shotgun damage done you cannot get higher or lower with soak combined.
Why? It's, really cool?
Melee replacement: Boxing gloves (stolen from Psyke) or sledgehammer. Half damage but sends enemies flying, a crit hit sends target even further.
Why? Good for knocking people away from CPs or self while not likely to kill them. Short range and vulnerable if you miss or do it in a bad place.
Melee replacement v2: Charged punch As your hands start to glow dish out half the damage you soak up from projectiles and release in a long punch (you get a extra micro moment to correct punch and still hit). No crits. Max damage is 150, min is 1. The damage you can release decrease quickly over time after 5 seconds less you take more damage.
Why? Use your massive health to your own advantage, run in and get hurt then quickly switch to melee and punch that close hugging engineer in the face. Allows retreat and punch-in-face ambushes but is totally hopeless versus enemies who melee you as it does not add to the damage.
About the shield you suggested, can it not be powered by ammo? So a shield can be used for double the amount of ammo you have (count full as 200) so it can soak 400 points of damage before it has to be rearmed? It will leave the heavy defenceless but might work wonders with my "charged punch". It's plenty against a single turret but the heavy could always use his own health as additional shield after the first one is exhausted.
I class, cannon, melee and shotgun (not v2) as serious suggestions.
Comments
Pyros had to be played intelligently before, and may have been a bit underpowered... But now any idiot can kill a whole squad of people.
Remember, every time you kill Tycho a Jedi gets his lightsaber.
And every time I ubercharge one of you I get closer to a kritzkrieg.
my problem is that I still suck as pyro. I don't know why exactly, but I end up in a situation where normally I would be toast (if roles were reversed), but instead I end up dieing to rockets/other pyros/what ever.
then again, same map I had one pyro that would dominate me no matter what, I just could not kill him. I would run into him when I was over full HP and still die with him having about 1/2 hp, and it was nothing but the 2 of us spraying each other with flames.
Meh.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have the exact problem, this one guy way defending goldrush 1 as backburner pyro and he topped the list of both teams in score, he just wouldn't die in a pyro vs pyro fight, nor vs a soldier but that was because he strafed jumped or something crazy like that.
I think the crit is silent on many occasions, I've been burned in the back and died nearly instantly but no crit was ever heard.
one thing I will say about this patch is that it finishes the task of completely castrating the spy. Everyone has already known to spy check for months, known the warning signs of a spy, etc. people have largely stopped playing as spies because of their low survivability and lack of any strong advantages... and now the spy's biggest advantage - the backstab - gets given to the pyro, only better?
pyros were already better spies than spies, because they could ambush just as well, had more health, and could actually damage someone who was facing them... I'm guessing that now, the spy will have one use and one use only, and that's to sap sentries, and even that only works if you're well coordinated with your team who will actually charge on your command when you sap things.
Join the NSOT steam chat now. TF2 time is at hand!
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Well that's cool. New TF2 update does some stuff, including lowering medic milestone achievements to match the pyro unlockable model...
Maybe I'll actually get those medic weapons now!
Maybe I'll actually get those medic weapons now!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed! My joy is rather palpable, as my badly desired ubersaw is now less of a pipe dream and more of a pipe reality.
Agreed. Kritzkreig I could care less about... but the ubersaw I want.
I can no longer seem to dual sticky jump with out just insta gibing my self (this is from full HP)
I can no longer seem to dual sticky jump with out just insta gibing my self (this is from full HP)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think so.
Just make sure you're a bit further away before you detonate. Don't do it right on top and you won't die. You'll be down to like 40 hp though.
One sticky does more than it used to.
That explains <i>a lot</i>. I thought I was just being nub(which is probably true anyway), but there were a couple situations where I tried to jump out of danger and just gibbed instead.
I was sucking so bad when I was playing with you guys. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
After you left I shot to the top of the scoreboard and managed to get the backburner and the axetinguisher.
I need to find a farm server to get my medic achievements. -.-'
edit:
Success. Got some of the stupider medic achievements like blunt trauma and big pharma there... Also did a couple of the slightly more reasonable ones. I am now a proud owner of an ubersaw. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" />
* Added back some damage falloff to the Pyro's flamethrower. Not nearly as extreme as it was before the Pyro class pack
I'm only at 17/22 on the medic front though. Alas.
--Scythe--
And while the axtinguisher isn't bad per se, the only use I see for it is in combination with the normal flamethrower, since you don't crit from behind with that one. In order to survive long enough to set a heavy on fire (for long enough to get him under 200 health, roughly), then pull out your axe and hit him, you pretty much need to ambush him, preferably from behind. In such a situation the backburner will kill faster. And I'll argue that the backburner is the gun of choice once you have it. Air blast is nice, but not fifty-hitpoints-and-possible-backstabs nice.
And while the axtinguisher isn't bad per se, the only use I see for it is in combination with the normal flamethrower, since you don't crit from behind with that one. In order to survive long enough to set a heavy on fire (for long enough to get him under 200 health, roughly), then pull out your axe and hit him, you pretty much need to ambush him, preferably from behind. In such a situation the backburner will kill faster. And I'll argue that the backburner is the gun of choice once you have it. Air blast is nice, but not fifty-hitpoints-and-possible-backstabs nice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's one map where the backburner is totally broken. Like absolutely. I think it's cp_well...
[time passes]
Yup, that it is. Checked at TF2 Wiki... As long as you've got your shotgun and backburner a pyro can destroy on that map. In the water I can normally kill people with my shotgun... I swim behind the other team, pop out, and get about 5-6 kills at once. It's almost too easy. I had I think 30 kills to 4 deaths or so in the last game I played there.
Of course, I was playing so well and holding my team up so the other team started filling up with pyros to try to stop me or try my tactics... This meant that when I got bored and went to switch to another class I kept getting lit on fire and just could not be as useful to my team as when I was pyro.
It was fun at first to rampage the other team so hard, but 1 person vs the other 8-16 on the other team is a hard thing to do. I was holding them back (really ambushing them so they couldn't move forward) but not making much ground either. So it was rather frustrating.
Yup. Half story there, half a point.
Backburner is overpowered. Well is especially broken for it... If I have the backburner it means I have that
extra 50 health in the water and while I can't flame in the water my shotgun works pretty damn well.
[more time passes and I press the edit button]
Also:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fixed bug that caused Demomen to take a small amount of extra damage from their own grenades and fly farther using them<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Looks like we won't be killed by two again, and that it wasn't actually a ninja buff/nerf, just an accident. (Probably related to the change to rocket jumping)
I'm only at 17/22 on the medic front though. Alas.
--Scythe--<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, I got the "3 and 6 axe kills in one life" achievements in one life. On 2fort, too. Went down through the sewers and out of their base and got pretty much the whole team from behind. I actually did a little whoop and dance in my chair, it was so stupidly awesome and lucky.
Also on the same map (same game, too), I switched to medic (not even out of an attempt to farm, we just needed a medic) and managed to get that "bedside manner" achievement (the "heal someone as they get an achievement" one, which I was pretty amazed at, since the person I was healing was neither a pyro or a medic), so now I have milestone 3 for pyro and medic.
And now I just cba playing. Have the levels of pyros died down yet?
Also: <a href="http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/forums/t/NewHeavyandSniperSoundbitesFoundForNewWeapons-13809.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/forums/t/...pons-13809.aspx</a>
<img src="http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/743/1214920677372ko7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
They encourage thinking of heavy unlockable solutions: <a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress.com/</a>
Constraints:
It shouldn't have a cumulative effect when being healed by a Medic as well. Heavy/Medic pairs do pretty well as it is.
It shouldn't significantly change the Heavy's role, relative to other classes. In particular, it shouldn't significantly encroach on another class's role.
It should be understandable for both the user and the player it's being used on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are other constraints too if you go to <b>Svenpa</b>'s second link, but those are the main less obvious ones.
The first idea that comes to mind is give the heavy a front only shield that replaces the shot gun.
Also: <a href="http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/forums/t/NewHeavyandSniperSoundbitesFoundForNewWeapons-13809.aspx" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/forums/t/...pons-13809.aspx</a>
<img src="http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/743/1214920677372ko7.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
They encourage thinking of heavy unlockable solutions: <a href="http://www.teamfortress.com/" target="_blank">http://www.teamfortress.com/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... If they do heavy next that will do even more to kill the pyromania... I mean I already go heavy when there are tons of pyros and ask for a medic to shadow me... It's ridiculous to just sit there mowing down a full team of pyros. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
That gun looks like it could be really good... My guesses on it's behavior:
It will shoot one explosive round a moderate distance, and will only have room for one round in the chamber.
(and will need reloading after this). When shooting you will be slowed down for a second as you brace for impact, but after the shot you will quickly be able to retreat as you reload. This will mean that if you don't have a medic you can pop out and explode a bunch of guys and then retreat. This will not be overpowered when you do have a medic due to the long reload time, but the ability to escape quickly after firing will mean that you can be independent.
So in short... remove spin down time for more independence, require reload after shot so that medic combo doesn't get buffed.
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I can't think of anything for melee or secondary weapon...
Shotgun replacement I just can't think of anything at all because I find the shotgun to already be a very useful weapon and I don't have any problems with it.
Ideas for melee replacement could be a grapple/hug that would slowly choke out the opponent and hold them still so your team could shoot them, or in the case of ubers... would at least prevent them from moving forward.
Or like boxing gloves that will lower damage but increase pushback... Maybe increase firerate too.
<!--quoteo(post=1682398:date=Jul 2 2008, 09:27 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(locallyunscene @ Jul 2 2008, 09:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1682398"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The first idea that comes to mind is give the heavy a front only shield that replaces the shot gun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not a bad idea... but I think would further limit independence... Because then you would need teammates to take out any ambushers because you wouldn't have the fast close range weapon that the shotgun is.
Also, think about how shields changed CS back in the day... We would suddenly see tons of heavy shield pushing with demo's firing over them at the sentries. No need to even bother with uber after that.
Hmm I hadn't considered the effect on turrets. Maybe have the shield raise up as it takes damage? And it can't be swapped until it's been "unhit" for a full second?
The other problem I see is healing a heavy while he has a shield. Just preventing healing seems lame, but I'm not sure how to make the heavy "better" without a medic, while not making him even better with a medic. How could having more health/longer life be bad, especially when you're a meatshield? I don't see another way around than disabling medic healing or at least +charge.
That's why I was suggesting a faster retreat time paired up with a reload time. It would allow for you to get out of damage faster as a heavy, but wouldn't really be buffed when you have a medic because you'd have to reload so you wouldn't be able to just sit there. (You'd end up taking a lot more damage)
I don't think it's possible to completely prevent a medic buff. You're making the heavy better so in some way it will be better with a medic as well. No matter what, medic lets you live longer. You can't just prevent medics from healing because that would be bad design (confusing to new players, etc).
It sounds like they could change the early healing rate to reduce the effectiveness of the medic combo. (From the blog it said there is a difference between when you have just taken damage and when it's been a while)
Would be one way to nerf the medic combo while buffing the heavy. I don't much like that idea though as it's still not very clear.
Currently, a solo heavy has trouble realizing his full potential. Between getting into position, spinning up, spinning down and getting away, there's not much time left for firing. He could just attack suicidally, but his low foot speed makes it tedious to get back to the fight after respawning. With medic backup, he lives longer, can stay in the fight longer, and doesn't have to think about escape as early and often.
So I concur: The way forward is to decrease or eliminate the heavy's movement penalty for firing, allowing him to move in and out of combat faster. I also suggest giving him a weapon with longer range, to get him out of the close range fighting where his low speed makes him a sitting duck. Finally, reduce his damage potential. His new weapon should be incapable of dealing as much damage over time as the minigun, in order to compensate for the other advantages. And to further reduce his reliance on medics (and the benefit gained from them), give it a low firing rate, so it becomes advantageous for him to move in and out of cover rather than staying out in the open.
So the bofors cannon looks like the obvious choice.
I'm not so sure. I would have guessed that too except for reading the dev blog Sven linked. It changes the entire play style of a heavy to be more like a soldier which they are trying to avoid according to the blog.
Minigun replacement
If we take the cannon idea and replace the minigun and say it fires explosive rounds at a rate of 2 per second with less splash then soldier rockets and less damage (crits happen in pairs). It will also have some fall off like the pyro flaregun, it also travels faster then rockets. 25 in ammo. While this gun will grant him mobility while firing it will also knockback him slightly after each shot and it will not work while airborne or increase backwards speed. In addition he wont be able to move for few milliseconds exactly when firing to avoid constant jumping and strafing. No shooting while jumping.
Accuracy will be roughly like spy's magnum. Damage increase the closer the target is but the heavy take full damage himself if shooting a enemy in close combat. Maximum damage and heavy knockback on airborne targets (it is a AA gun). The range is also limited but make a bit extra damage and grants knockback when the max range is reached (explodes in a temporary black smoke cloud midair, again, it's a AA gun). This will let him stand if favourable positions to make a midair wall of damage even without a wall.
The effect while shooting should be a transparent cloud which grows after each continuous shot but will never block your view, just make it harder to see colors etc.
The sound should be heavy on the bass and add extra voice files to the heavy, ex, "Ho. Ho. Ho. Hooo" to the RoF. "YOU. DIE. NOW. BABIES".
Why?
As I think we all agree on, the heavy is a area denial class, specified in defence. This will let him bombard corners to discourage players to advance but at same time not have perfect accuracy to pinpoint <b>snipers</b> aiming back at him. The knockback from firing will keep him from shooting sneakily at corners and blowing everyone apart, now he must either place himself in a big open place to fire efficiently or just shoot at a lesser rate.
This will also make him much better against <b>soldiers and demomen</b> at a distance.
Due to lower splash and firerate the heavy cannot simply shoot the ground under double jumping <b>scouts</b> and have to try and pick them off in air or on ground, which will be troublesome.
<b>Pyros</b> will have about same trouble as with soldiers but now they cannot be juggled, only pushed back if they jump.
<b>Spies</b> will have it slightly harder stabbing him directly but also have it easier to dodge and run away cloaked or circle stab the heavy.
<b>Engineers</b> will have more trouble from the heavy but can take the decision to build further away so the shots don't reach (the range is same as the turret, so if the heavy reach the turret, so does it reach back). Heavies won't get the same advantage when really close to turrets as to using minigun.
Other <b>Heavies</b> will mow him down in close combat and still might win if they get a crit stream but otherwise they are ######ed, can't find a good way to balance this.
I bet it will be a lot easier to understand if you could play with it.
Shotgun replacement: Large Haildrum Collider
Really large shotgun, particularly large barrel. Massive point blank damage but hefty falloff.
Why?
The cannon is a medium weapon, this is close range one. Slightly lower RoF.
Shotgun replacement v2: Ragegun
Edit: The damage you cause is added permanently to one charged punch, max 200 damage. Normal shotgun without crits. If you soak up 150 damage from charged punch you can add 50 from this to it, soak damage decrease over time, this does not, but they add ontop of each other. So if you have 200 shotgun damage done you cannot get higher or lower with soak combined.
Why?
It's, really cool?
Melee replacement: Boxing gloves (stolen from Psyke) or sledgehammer.
Half damage but sends enemies flying, a crit hit sends target even further.
Why?
Good for knocking people away from CPs or self while not likely to kill them. Short range and vulnerable if you miss or do it in a bad place.
Melee replacement v2: Charged punch
As your hands start to glow dish out half the damage you soak up from projectiles and release in a long punch (you get a extra micro moment to correct punch and still hit). No crits. Max damage is 150, min is 1. The damage you can release decrease quickly over time after 5 seconds less you take more damage.
Why?
Use your massive health to your own advantage, run in and get hurt then quickly switch to melee and punch that close hugging engineer in the face. Allows retreat and punch-in-face ambushes but is totally hopeless versus enemies who melee you as it does not add to the damage.
About the shield you suggested, can it not be powered by ammo? So a shield can be used for double the amount of ammo you have (count full as 200) so it can soak 400 points of damage before it has to be rearmed? It will leave the heavy defenceless but might work wonders with my "charged punch". It's plenty against a single turret but the heavy could always use his own health as additional shield after the first one is exhausted.
I class, cannon, melee and shotgun (not v2) as serious suggestions.
Comments?