[WHO]ThemYou can call me DaveJoin Date: 2002-12-11Member: 10593Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1651175:date=Sep 22 2007, 01:51 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 22 2007, 01:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651175"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>A few questions for T h e m:</b> <i>followed by some self-important demands! <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /></i>
<b> 1.</b> In your playtests did anyone actually scoutrush? (I.e. more than 1 scout rushing to cap the middle CP, and pushing back the enemy respawn points while ALSO increasing their respawn times.) I mean, GravelPit is particularly prone to Scout rushes and it's virtually impossible to setup a level 2 SG before they've got to the penultimate flag.
<b>2.</b> Have Valve considered setting default class limits or are they leaving that entirely to the server ops? Scout rushing, soldier spamming and medic chaining are all obvious exploits in the gameplay that really don't require any skill. Some default limits would at least keep the average vanilla server noob-friendly.
Also... 15 second respawn times and average 7-10 minute round times... W T H? I swear almost every round I play goes to Sudden Death and almost every Sudden Death I play ends in a campout. Is this how TF2 was designed? Or will Valve actually consider reducing spawn times and increasing round times? Even if spawn times were only slightly increased, or better still have spawn times on a rolling scale dependant on how many players are in-game, because just a pair of Scouts can get to and cap 2 points before a team (or the competant players in a team) can respawn.
But perhaps the best option is to have TF2 follow the DoD respawn wave format. As it currently stands, every player who dies has to wait 15 seconds to respawn (note: less if you're winning!!!??!??!??). In DoD respawn waves are scheduled for 15 (for example) seconds after the first person in a team dies, with every subsequent death in that 15s period joining that respawn wave. This has massive benefits for teamplay, e.g.: - new players spawn with other teammates and can follow them to where the action's at - teammates reinforce in numbers, which considering a lot of TF2 classes are interdependant, would be a very good thing - you don't ALWAYS have to wait the maximum amount of time to respawn, which if you're losing (and at your most frustrated) is probably going to be a whopping 15 seconds (JOY)
Now let's look at the round times: I'd say it takes an average of 10-20 seconds to reach the battleline, and taking this into account the average lifespan for the average player on an average size server is probably around 60-90 seconds. Add to this 'play time' the respawn time of 15 seconds, and you get a 'lifecycle' of 75-105s:
Longer round, longer lifecycle: 600s round {divided by} 105s lifecycle = ~5.7 lives; 14% of time spent dead Shorter round, shorter lifecycle: 420s round {divided by} 75s lifecycle = 5.4 lives; 20% of time spent dead
So even if we generously round up to 6 and take the upper end of the round timer (10 minutes), that's <i>six to eight</i> lives you get per round. What's worse is that the average player spends 1 out of every 5 minutes in TF2 dead, which I find particularly tedious.
---
To conclude: Increase round times, I assure you my attention span can take it. Secondly, change spawning to the DoD model at the very least.
[Edit] It's possible that TF2 uses the DoD model but the massive spawn locations with multiple laberynthine corridors and exits disguise this fact, however my gut impression is that it doesn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To begin, I was never directly on the TF2 team, so everything I know is from participating in playtests and overhearing conversations.
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.
2. I don't know if default class caps have been seriously discussed internally. I know I personally think they're stupid.
You'll also notice that whenever someone caps a point, the round time goes back up to 6 minutes.
From what I understand, TF2 is geared to favor winners to specifically avoid stalemates. I'm pretty sure we tried wave spawning a while back, but *if* I remember correctly, it led to constant stalemates with center caps being traded indefinitely. A better game is to have the center traded only once or twice at most.
Stalemates with the current rules weren't rare interally, but they weren't frequent either. Although a tied stalemate was rare, someone always won. All you need to do is take out their engineers/medics and then they'll lose the war of attrition.
Seriously, it's been out 6 days. It's a whole different game when someone on your team knows what they're doing.
<!--quoteo(post=1651524:date=Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM:name=T_h_e_m)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(T_h_e_m @ Sep 23 2007, 11:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651524"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To begin, I was never directly on the TF2 team, so everything I know is from participating in playtests and overhearing conversations.
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point is the 'best assault tactic' for Granary is to have the most amount of Scouts possible. Because of the spawn shifting, both of those maps revolve around the middle flag. If you hit that first you can push the other team back and -all things being equal- it shouldn't be hard to keep the momentum and steamroll the other team. So since the Scout is the fastest class and there is not even a default class cap, having as many Scouts as possible for the initial rush is the best strategy, period. I can guarantee a team of competant Scouts could wipe the floor on Granary vs. a 'well balanced' team with perhaps 3 scouts maximum to contend for the middle. This is because the steamroll effect will have a team of Scouts hitting level 1 sentries on the penultimate flag and after that the lovely 15 second losing penalty respawn versus the speediest class rush in the game will leave the last flag a walkover.
Well is much better because it at least allows all of the classes to get there at once (really damn freakin important) and because the middle flag has the train hazard which can work to the attackers' advantage. In Well there is no 'best' class to make that initial capture because Scouts are going up against Heavies and Soldiers from the get-go.
The point with Granary is that because the Scout is the fastest class instead of having equal importance to other classes on the map it is made more crucial, and because there is no class cap the most Scouts at the centre CP will win out every time, <i>especially since they cap at twice the normal rate!</i> As you say, we're only 6 days in, but as this map gets played again and again, more people will realise a) just how ludicrously good the Scout is and b) that Scouts > all in the first 30 seconds of Granary. And when maps have a single 'formula' they automatically become boring. It's like how GravelPit's formula is 'sit Demos at the top of C and spam the doorways, with a Medic or Dispenser to keep them alive (shoot everyone that comes up the ramp)'. If you're an attacker and you get to that last point, you virtually need Special Forces training for every member of your team to be able to crack it.
It is clear that after 6 days of playing Crispy has outsmarted the entire Team Fortress 2 design team. In deference of this amazing feat I do not doubt for a moment that Valve will hire him to help design all their games from this point forwards.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
i just played a game on granary not 10 minutes ago, and the other team did a scout rush, and i was the only scout on my team. so when i ran to the middle capture and got there just in time to see 5 other scouts rush in, i jumped around and kept them from capping for a good 15 seconds, which was long enough for the rest of my team to get there and hose them all down. the game went on and was pretty close through the whole thing, and we won in sudden death.
moral of the story is: it only takes one scout to stop a scout rush.
and on the topic of sudden death: i hate it. its a completely different game, which is obvious when theres 20 seconds left of the regular game and everyone yells out "get your sudden death classes!" it wouldnt bother me so much except for the fact that every game ends in sudden death. the timers really need to be longer to provide a fighting chance for each team.
ive played probably 20 games on well and granary, and i cant think of more than 5 that ended with someone capping all the flags.
sudden death is much less likely on 2fort, but it still happens more often than it should in my opinion.
for a game designed to be anti-stalemate, there sure are a lot of stalemates. Everyone I play with groans in misery when 2fort rolls around, because both teams are pretty much guaranteed to bang their heads against impenetrable defenses for half an hour when you get to that map. 2 or 3 sentries in the briefcase rooms and it's a total lockdown. especially if one sentry is on top of the briefcase, so that any spy who tries to blow it up, accidentally picks up the briefcase and is instagibbed by the sentry...
sure, it would be easy to crack the nut with a little strategy, but you're not gonna find it in a pug. and the game seems designed to be pretty accessible, which means it's supposed to be geared toward pugs, not, like, ladder play...
don't get me wrong, I love the game - just hate 2fort so far =p
2 or 3 sentries is not a total lockdown. A medic + HWG, demo, or soldier can do some serious damage or destroy the place, and a spy can just sapper them right before a scout rushes in. The sappers might not take them all down but at least you grab the intelligence. Not to mention anyone with ubercharge can run in and waste everything.
<!--quoteo(post=1651573:date=Sep 23 2007, 11:01 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 23 2007, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 or 3 sentries is not a total lockdown. A medic + HWG, demo, or soldier can do some serious damage or destroy the place, and a spy can just sapper them right before a scout rushes in. The sappers might not take them all down but at least you grab the intelligence. Not to mention anyone with ubercharge can run in and waste everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> with 2 or 3 sentries, it's safe to assume at least 1 engy is babysitting them. even an ubercharged heavy can't make much progress because the sentries have major pushback so a heavy can't even get into the room to kill the engies healing the sentries, regardless of invulnerability. one engy guarding the sentries means a spy probably couldn't take them down - 1 engy + anything else guarding the room means dead spy + no dent to the defenses. and it only takes 1 level 1 sentry to take down a scout, so that's no good. most of the time, even if you try to take potshots at one of the sentries as a soldier, an enemy will rush you and blast you from behind while you think you're making progress. your best bet with one of those fort knox flagrooms is, like, 2 medics with ubercharge and 2 soldiers with good aim... or one spy + someone else to take out the engineer so that the spy can sap everything without interruption... in my experience anyway...
<!--quoteo(post=1651551:date=Sep 24 2007, 01:15 AM:name=6john)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(6john @ Sep 24 2007, 01:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i just played a game on granary not 10 minutes ago, and the other team did a scout rush, and i was the only scout on my team. so when i ran to the middle capture and got there just in time to see 5 other scouts rush in, i jumped around and kept them from capping for a good 15 seconds, which was long enough for the rest of my team to get there and hose them all down. the game went on and was pretty close through the whole thing, and we won in sudden death.
moral of the story is: it only takes one scout to stop a scout rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->1 Scout versus 5 scouts is not even the beginnings of a contest.
Agreed, if you stopped 5 scouts by yourself it is more through their inabilities than your skill.
Edit: Just had an image of "shaun of the dead" with 5 scouts circling a single scout with their baseball bats out <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1651558:date=Sep 24 2007, 03:18 AM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Sep 24 2007, 03:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fort knox flagroom<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Sounds like two spies would do the trick. It's hard to organize that, but in an emergency perhaps you can persuade your teammates...
<!--quoteo(post=1651656:date=Sep 24 2007, 04:17 PM:name=EliteParakeet)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(EliteParakeet @ Sep 24 2007, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nothing's more satisfying then bashing in some heads with the scouts Baseball bat, and gloating over their body with a taunt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yeah.
Too bad that your victim does not see the taunt, because of the freeze cam ^^
Too bad that your victim does not see the taunt, because of the freeze cam ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> they do see it if you do it RIGHT after the killing blow...
scouts are a pain in the ass. I was a demo with a medic healing me, and the scout took us both out and there wasn't much I could do about it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I'm closing in on my 1k kills achievement, but still need the 'play with 8 friends' achievement... :o
<!--quoteo(post=1651664:date=Sep 24 2007, 03:53 PM:name=DiscoZombie)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DiscoZombie @ Sep 24 2007, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they do see it if you do it RIGHT after the killing blow...
scouts are a pain in the ass. I was a demo with a medic healing me, and the scout took us both out and there wasn't much I could do about it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I'm closing in on my 1k kills achievement, but still need the 'play with 8 friends' achievement... :o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've got the 8 friends but I can't tell how far away I am from 1k kills...
I have most of them now, the friends and the sentry kill is the last of the easy ones for me. Oh, and Head of the Class, which is annoying, as it's 8/9, and I don't know what that last class is (that could do with changing). I don't particually want to play them all one by one, especially if my team doesn't need yet another one of that class.
My philosophy for achievments is that I'll get them all eventually. There's no prize for being the first to get all of them or anything. I'll get around to it.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1651619:date=Sep 24 2007, 04:10 AM:name=niaccurshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(niaccurshi @ Sep 24 2007, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651619"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Agreed, if you stopped 5 scouts by yourself it is more through their inabilities than your skill.
Edit: Just had an image of "shaun of the dead" with 5 scouts circling a single scout with their baseball bats out <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was not making any attempt at bragging, in fact im awful as a scout. and im not saying they were very good either. what im saying is, that it is entirely possible to hold off a scout rush as long as you get there soon enough. scouts dont do a hole lot of damage, especially to quick moving targets like other scouts.
also, from what i can tell if both teams are on the pad, then no one can capture it no matter how many people of each team are on it. so when i stayed around that pad keeping them from capping it, by the time my team got there they destroyed their entire team since there was nothing except scouts.
a scout rush can be a good starting strategy, but it is possible to beat it.
<!--quoteo(post=1651673:date=Sep 24 2007, 05:46 PM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 24 2007, 05:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651673"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've got the 8 friends but I can't tell how far away I am from 1k kills...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You click on achivements in the Tf2 main menu and there you will see something like 453/1000 meaning you need another 547 kills.
And a quick look at your stats reveals, that you already have the Hardcore achievment <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
LikuI, am the Somberlain.Join Date: 2003-01-10Member: 12128Members
<!--quoteo(post=1651573:date=Sep 23 2007, 09:01 PM:name=TychoCelchuuu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TychoCelchuuu @ Sep 23 2007, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651573"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 or 3 sentries is not a total lockdown. A medic + HWG, demo, or soldier can do some serious damage or destroy the place, and a spy can just sapper them right before a scout rushes in. The sappers might not take them all down but at least you grab the intelligence. Not to mention anyone with ubercharge can run in and waste everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A Engineer can heal a Sentry quicker than the Heavy Weapon's Minigun can kill it. I've done it over and over, I place the Sentry in a well-placed spot near a wall, and behind the wall I'm hiding with a Dispenser. Unless I'm taken out my Sentry is pretty damn fine. They're usually in areas where there's other action going on so not everyone can focus on me. I've also wasted tons of Ubercharges since the Heavy is just sitting there against an every-healing Sentry.
[Edit] I suppose I should at least explain why I think this. Basically a Heavy on its own is utter crap against everything except for lone Medics unless it has its own Medic backing it up. The problem is now anyone who knows anything about TF2 knows to kill off the Medic first, and even with uber the Heavy is too slow while firing to cover any crucial ground.
Basically the Heavy is like a mobile Sentry Gun in that he needs a minder to mother all his health needs, but he's also less accurate, does less damage and Spies and Snipers can kill him instantly in a single hit.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1651913:date=Sep 25 2007, 04:10 AM:name=Crispy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Crispy @ Sep 25 2007, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Who's with me on this one? Heavies <i>suck</i>.
[Edit] I suppose I should at least explain why I think this. Basically a Heavy on its own is utter crap against everything except for lone Medics unless it has its own Medic backing it up. The problem is now anyone who knows anything about TF2 knows to kill off the Medic first, and even with uber the Heavy is too slow while firing to cover any crucial ground.
Basically the Heavy is like a mobile Sentry Gun in that he needs a minder to mother all his health needs, but he's also less accurate, does less damage and Spies and Snipers can kill him instantly in a single hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, you basically just pointed out what a heavy is.
Land denial. He is not an offensive character (unless backed up by a Medic), He is a mobile version of the SG. The advantages of the Heavy is that he is smarter then the SG, can kill cloaked and disguised spys, has longer range, and can be moved much faster then the SG.
Both the SG and the Heavy can be single shotted by Spy's and Snipers (yes, SGs CAN be single shotted by a sniper, DO IT!).
And as said, if he is backed up by a medic, he suddenly IS good offense. True, he is not THAT good against a room full of SGs, and you should probably send in the Soldier with Uber for that, but against humans he is unstoppable. (My kill streaks with HWG is nice, and it is all from a massive push in Two Fort)
<!--quoteo(post=1651935:date=Sep 25 2007, 12:33 PM:name=Thansal)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Thansal @ Sep 25 2007, 12:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both the SG and the Heavy can be single shotted by Spy's and Snipers (yes, SGs CAN be single shotted by a sniper, DO IT!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Level 3 sentries cannot be single-shotted by Snipers at full power. My quote was 'instantly be taken out in a single hit', which spies cannot do to sentries, nor can any other class. Sappers take a few seconds to work, a good engy will need to be dead before he lets his SG get sapped.
Oh and this wasn't even orchestrated. I join a server that's playing Granary, and everyone goes Scout for the middle rush which we steamroll because the other team has a balanced team with only 1 Scout. <img src="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/pickups/tf2_beta_14.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> Like I said, what it's doing is forcing a strategy, like ns_coldturn, for example. If they added in doors that opened after 30 seconds the map would be much more interesting.
I think the heavy is pretty great. every class has its strengths and weaknesses (except Pyro, which has more weaknesses than strengths. you know a class is messed up when, whenever you see one in the wild, it's using its single-barreled shotgun more than its flamethrower). it's sorta true that you can't do nearly as much without a medic, but you still have so much health that you're practically guaranteed to get a kill or two before you drop dead due to how long it takes most people to whittle you down and the volume of ammo you spit. a sniper will have a lot of trouble headshotting you while you're shooting like 10 rounds a second at him, especially if you're weaving back and forth a little... and you should always be watching your back for spies whenever you have a half a second to turn around.
I disagree with your pyro comment. We pyros are to worthless. Just mostly worthless.
The pathetic range of the flame thrower means that the pyro is most effective at close quarters. Particularly in a situation where a hostile target has to come in close. Like, say, a cap point. The pyro goes in lights every one on fire and buys it big time, gets the cap/ defend and hopefully escapes while every one is screaming "fire fire fire". With a demo man buddy this can completely take out cap point defenses in a few seconds.
Also, it turns out that scouts burn rather nicely.
<!--quoteo(post=1651960:date=Sep 25 2007, 04:06 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 25 2007, 04:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I came up with a idea to decrease sudden death fails: When sudden death engages everyone gets a random class, except engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The problem with that is how the classes are natural counters to eachother, and how Heavies NEED Medics to be effective. If you made it so 9 v 9 randomed 1 of each class and additional players got random classes it would at least be a bit more balanced. I don't know how most people would feel about being assigned random classes (it's that old 'taking control away from the player' that a lot of people dislike), but for me it's much more preferable to a stalemate following a stalemate.
<!--quoteo(post=1651960:date=Sep 25 2007, 05:06 PM:name=Svenpa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Svenpa @ Sep 25 2007, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1651960"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I came up with a idea to decrease sudden death fails: When sudden death engages everyone gets a random class, except engineer.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sentrys and dispenser and the Medgun should not work in SD. Maybe also the spys cloak/disguise.
This would make it essentially a simple gun it out. And if the other team had 10 engis before sudden death, then they deserve to loose!
Comments
<b> 1.</b> In your playtests did anyone actually scoutrush? (I.e. more than 1 scout rushing to cap the middle CP, and pushing back the enemy respawn points while ALSO increasing their respawn times.) I mean, GravelPit is particularly prone to Scout rushes and it's virtually impossible to setup a level 2 SG before they've got to the penultimate flag.
<b>2.</b> Have Valve considered setting default class limits or are they leaving that entirely to the server ops? Scout rushing, soldier spamming and medic chaining are all obvious exploits in the gameplay that really don't require any skill. Some default limits would at least keep the average vanilla server noob-friendly.
Also... 15 second respawn times and average 7-10 minute round times... W T H? I swear almost every round I play goes to Sudden Death and almost every Sudden Death I play ends in a campout. Is this how TF2 was designed? Or will Valve actually consider reducing spawn times and increasing round times? Even if spawn times were only slightly increased, or better still have spawn times on a rolling scale dependant on how many players are in-game, because just a pair of Scouts can get to and cap 2 points before a team (or the competant players in a team) can respawn.
But perhaps the best option is to have TF2 follow the DoD respawn wave format. As it currently stands, every player who dies has to wait 15 seconds to respawn (note: less if you're winning!!!??!??!??). In DoD respawn waves are scheduled for 15 (for example) seconds after the first person in a team dies, with every subsequent death in that 15s period joining that respawn wave. This has massive benefits for teamplay, e.g.:
- new players spawn with other teammates and can follow them to where the action's at
- teammates reinforce in numbers, which considering a lot of TF2 classes are interdependant, would be a very good thing
- you don't ALWAYS have to wait the maximum amount of time to respawn, which if you're losing (and at your most frustrated) is probably going to be a whopping 15 seconds (JOY)
Now let's look at the round times: I'd say it takes an average of 10-20 seconds to reach the battleline, and taking this into account the average lifespan for the average player on an average size server is probably around 60-90 seconds. Add to this 'play time' the respawn time of 15 seconds, and you get a 'lifecycle' of 75-105s:
Longer round, longer lifecycle: 600s round {divided by} 105s lifecycle = ~5.7 lives; 14% of time spent dead
Shorter round, shorter lifecycle: 420s round {divided by} 75s lifecycle = 5.4 lives; 20% of time spent dead
So even if we generously round up to 6 and take the upper end of the round timer (10 minutes), that's <i>six to eight</i> lives you get per round. What's worse is that the average player spends 1 out of every 5 minutes in TF2 dead, which I find particularly tedious.
---
To conclude: Increase round times, I assure you my attention span can take it. Secondly, change spawning to the DoD model at the very least.
[Edit] It's possible that TF2 uses the DoD model but the massive spawn locations with multiple laberynthine corridors and exits disguise this fact, however my gut impression is that it doesn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
To begin, I was never directly on the TF2 team, so everything I know is from participating in playtests and overhearing conversations.
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.
2. I don't know if default class caps have been seriously discussed internally. I know I personally think they're stupid.
You'll also notice that whenever someone caps a point, the round time goes back up to 6 minutes.
From what I understand, TF2 is geared to favor winners to specifically avoid stalemates. I'm pretty sure we tried wave spawning a while back, but *if* I remember correctly, it led to constant stalemates with center caps being traded indefinitely. A better game is to have the center traded only once or twice at most.
Stalemates with the current rules weren't rare interally, but they weren't frequent either. Although a tied stalemate was rare, someone always won. All you need to do is take out their engineers/medics and then they'll lose the war of attrition.
Seriously, it's been out 6 days. It's a whole different game when someone on your team knows what they're doing.
[edit]
still on Geforce4 TI4400
1. I haven't seen anything new tried out in the wild that we hadn't tried during the playtests yet. We'd routinely have 3-5 vs 3-5 scout battles in granary on the middle cap. The initial cap push for both well and granary is always the most bloody. And usually the team with a better assault tactic wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The point is the 'best assault tactic' for Granary is to have the most amount of Scouts possible. Because of the spawn shifting, both of those maps revolve around the middle flag. If you hit that first you can push the other team back and -all things being equal- it shouldn't be hard to keep the momentum and steamroll the other team. So since the Scout is the fastest class and there is not even a default class cap, having as many Scouts as possible for the initial rush is the best strategy, period. I can guarantee a team of competant Scouts could wipe the floor on Granary vs. a 'well balanced' team with perhaps 3 scouts maximum to contend for the middle. This is because the steamroll effect will have a team of Scouts hitting level 1 sentries on the penultimate flag and after that the lovely 15 second losing penalty respawn versus the speediest class rush in the game will leave the last flag a walkover.
Well is much better because it at least allows all of the classes to get there at once (really damn freakin important) and because the middle flag has the train hazard which can work to the attackers' advantage. In Well there is no 'best' class to make that initial capture because Scouts are going up against Heavies and Soldiers from the get-go.
The point with Granary is that because the Scout is the fastest class instead of having equal importance to other classes on the map it is made more crucial, and because there is no class cap the most Scouts at the centre CP will win out every time, <i>especially since they cap at twice the normal rate!</i> As you say, we're only 6 days in, but as this map gets played again and again, more people will realise a) just how ludicrously good the Scout is and b) that Scouts > all in the first 30 seconds of Granary. And when maps have a single 'formula' they automatically become boring. It's like how GravelPit's formula is 'sit Demos at the top of C and spam the doorways, with a Medic or Dispenser to keep them alive (shoot everyone that comes up the ramp)'. If you're an attacker and you get to that last point, you virtually need Special Forces training for every member of your team to be able to crack it.
moral of the story is: it only takes one scout to stop a scout rush.
and on the topic of sudden death: i hate it. its a completely different game, which is obvious when theres 20 seconds left of the regular game and everyone yells out "get your sudden death classes!"
it wouldnt bother me so much except for the fact that every game ends in sudden death. the timers really need to be longer to provide a fighting chance for each team.
ive played probably 20 games on well and granary, and i cant think of more than 5 that ended with someone capping all the flags.
sudden death is much less likely on 2fort, but it still happens more often than it should in my opinion.
sure, it would be easy to crack the nut with a little strategy, but you're not gonna find it in a pug. and the game seems designed to be pretty accessible, which means it's supposed to be geared toward pugs, not, like, ladder play...
don't get me wrong, I love the game - just hate 2fort so far =p
with 2 or 3 sentries, it's safe to assume at least 1 engy is babysitting them. even an ubercharged heavy can't make much progress because the sentries have major pushback so a heavy can't even get into the room to kill the engies healing the sentries, regardless of invulnerability. one engy guarding the sentries means a spy probably couldn't take them down - 1 engy + anything else guarding the room means dead spy + no dent to the defenses. and it only takes 1 level 1 sentry to take down a scout, so that's no good. most of the time, even if you try to take potshots at one of the sentries as a soldier, an enemy will rush you and blast you from behind while you think you're making progress. your best bet with one of those fort knox flagrooms is, like, 2 medics with ubercharge and 2 soldiers with good aim... or one spy + someone else to take out the engineer so that the spy can sap everything without interruption... in my experience anyway...
moral of the story is: it only takes one scout to stop a scout rush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->1 Scout versus 5 scouts is not even the beginnings of a contest.
Edit: Just had an image of "shaun of the dead" with 5 scouts circling a single scout with their baseball bats out <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
Well, yeah.
Too bad that your victim does not see the taunt, because of the freeze cam ^^
Too bad that your victim does not see the taunt, because of the freeze cam ^^<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
they do see it if you do it RIGHT after the killing blow...
scouts are a pain in the ass. I was a demo with a medic healing me, and the scout took us both out and there wasn't much I could do about it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I'm closing in on my 1k kills achievement, but still need the 'play with 8 friends' achievement... :o
scouts are a pain in the ass. I was a demo with a medic healing me, and the scout took us both out and there wasn't much I could do about it <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I'm closing in on my 1k kills achievement, but still need the 'play with 8 friends' achievement... :o<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've got the 8 friends but I can't tell how far away I am from 1k kills...
Edit: Just had an image of "shaun of the dead" with 5 scouts circling a single scout with their baseball bats out <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i was not making any attempt at bragging, in fact im awful as a scout. and im not saying they were very good either. what im saying is, that it is entirely possible to hold off a scout rush as long as you get there soon enough. scouts dont do a hole lot of damage, especially to quick moving targets like other scouts.
also, from what i can tell if both teams are on the pad, then no one can capture it no matter how many people of each team are on it. so when i stayed around that pad keeping them from capping it, by the time my team got there they destroyed their entire team since there was nothing except scouts.
a scout rush can be a good starting strategy, but it is possible to beat it.
Thing gives me a headache.
You click on achivements in the Tf2 main menu and there you will see something like 453/1000 meaning you need another 547 kills.
And a quick look at your stats reveals, that you already have the Hardcore achievment <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
A Engineer can heal a Sentry quicker than the Heavy Weapon's Minigun can kill it. I've done it over and over, I place the Sentry in a well-placed spot near a wall, and behind the wall I'm hiding with a Dispenser. Unless I'm taken out my Sentry is pretty damn fine. They're usually in areas where there's other action going on so not everyone can focus on me. I've also wasted tons of Ubercharges since the Heavy is just sitting there against an every-healing Sentry.
[Edit] I suppose I should at least explain why I think this. Basically a Heavy on its own is utter crap against everything except for lone Medics unless it has its own Medic backing it up. The problem is now anyone who knows anything about TF2 knows to kill off the Medic first, and even with uber the Heavy is too slow while firing to cover any crucial ground.
Basically the Heavy is like a mobile Sentry Gun in that he needs a minder to mother all his health needs, but he's also less accurate, does less damage and Spies and Snipers can kill him instantly in a single hit.
[Edit] I suppose I should at least explain why I think this. Basically a Heavy on its own is utter crap against everything except for lone Medics unless it has its own Medic backing it up. The problem is now anyone who knows anything about TF2 knows to kill off the Medic first, and even with uber the Heavy is too slow while firing to cover any crucial ground.
Basically the Heavy is like a mobile Sentry Gun in that he needs a minder to mother all his health needs, but he's also less accurate, does less damage and Spies and Snipers can kill him instantly in a single hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, you basically just pointed out what a heavy is.
Land denial. He is not an offensive character (unless backed up by a Medic), He is a mobile version of the SG. The advantages of the Heavy is that he is smarter then the SG, can kill cloaked and disguised spys, has longer range, and can be moved much faster then the SG.
Both the SG and the Heavy can be single shotted by Spy's and Snipers (yes, SGs CAN be single shotted by a sniper, DO IT!).
And as said, if he is backed up by a medic, he suddenly IS good offense. True, he is not THAT good against a room full of SGs, and you should probably send in the Soldier with Uber for that, but against humans he is unstoppable. (My kill streaks with HWG is nice, and it is all from a massive push in Two Fort)
Oh and this wasn't even orchestrated. I join a server that's playing Granary, and everyone goes Scout for the middle rush which we steamroll because the other team has a balanced team with only 1 Scout.
<img src="http://crispy.nuclear-dawn.net/pickups/tf2_beta_14.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Like I said, what it's doing is forcing a strategy, like ns_coldturn, for example. If they added in doors that opened after 30 seconds the map would be much more interesting.
We pyros are to worthless. Just mostly worthless.
The pathetic range of the flame thrower means that the pyro is most effective at close quarters. Particularly in a situation where a hostile target has to come in close. Like, say, a cap point. The pyro goes in lights every one on fire and buys it big time, gets the cap/ defend and hopefully escapes while every one is screaming "fire fire fire". With a demo man buddy this can completely take out cap point defenses in a few seconds.
Also, it turns out that scouts burn rather nicely.
I came up with a idea to decrease sudden death fails: When sudden death engages everyone gets a random class, except engineer.
Sentrys and dispenser and the Medgun should not work in SD.
Maybe also the spys cloak/disguise.
This would make it essentially a simple gun it out. And if the other team had 10 engis before sudden death, then they deserve to loose!