Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
I don't think RTs were intended to be either an offensive structure (duh) or defensive for anything other than themselves. Since my favorite server is not on Steam I haven't been playing for a while, so I forget if RTs "zap" you, or if you have to bite them first. Making RTs so that the electricity only affects you if you bite it (and not other nearby buildings) would solve this.
I think it is really silly that an RT can be [ab]used to be a defensive structure. It is somewhat unfair because then it acts like a turret factory that GIVES you resources. I'm NOT whining that this strategy can or cannot be countered (although if lerks really lose their spikes, that will make it even harder), I'm just saying it's silly that an RT should be used as a weapon.
Isn't skulk bite range + width of the phase gate > electricity attack range? The bite range is much greater than it looks, so you could probably not get zapped without any trouble. Even if you did get zapped, the phase has far less hp than the RT. It'd fall pretty fast, likely before a decent group of skulks took much damage.
The marines would be the only real threat, and they'd be the same threat without the electricity there.
<!--QuoteBegin--ZERG!!+Nov 6 2003, 03:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ZERG!! @ Nov 6 2003, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think a structure counts as a target. I'ver placed 4 OCs around an elec RT and the stupid thing shocked me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I could swear I've seen a electrified RT shocking an OC a gorge dropped right next to, it... Even if it doesn't the main point was to block the marine reinforcement. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
IMO, the "bonsai base" as it has so been named, is stupid unless the comm is intelligent, which is more often than not. All you see is "OH, spam ips here, armory, 'insert important structure here' electrify, and done!" Then you end up with a mass telefrag party, all while people have to take turns getting ammo, because the shortbus of a comm made it where two people can get ammo at a time, one on top of armory, and one in the tiny hole on the side. I don't mind bonsai bases, but for the love of god comms, take some consideration into your placement, in FACT, take some consideration into your placement even when you don't grow a bonsai base.
Elec structures don't harm lerks. For now , a regen lerk can afford to spore marines to death , and spike elec buildings when the marines are gone. Sneaky gorges can build OCs that will shoot the marines as soon as they leave their IP. They can bile bomb with impunity. Skulk can spawncamp... you get the picture.
Electrifying TFs costs just as much as 3 turrets. It's a dodgy investment , useful early game , but weak soon after.
I've been kind of annoyed by this, but I also feel that it falls under the category of fair use. Unfortunatly, it makes a really quick and fairly inexpensive lockdown of an area. (Early)
As far as base placement goes, I've come to the conclusion that some commanders just plain hate their marines. :-/ I joined a server half-way into a game and was faced with either going out without extra ammo or risking death. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I only think the phase gate being able to be protected entirely by a rt is something bad.
But what can you do that's the way it is: if it's that much of a key location, it's your fault they got there and were able to place a phase, a rt and were able to wait 30 seconds for it to be elec'd
I think this is a **** tactic, and an exploit. Why did Flayra remove the ability to electrify buildings besides the TFac and RT? Because it was defending structures it wasn't meant to. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
Put a 'minimum space' limit on structures. Something to the effect of 3 feet apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 6 2003, 06:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 6 2003, 06:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think this is a **** tactic, and an exploit. Why did Flayra remove the ability to electrify buildings besides the TFac and RT? Because it was defending structures it wasn't meant to. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.
Put a 'minimum space' limit on structures. Something to the effect of 3 feet apart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> There was never an ability to electrify any buildings other than the TF/RTs. The <b>bug</b> where you could electrify other buildings wasn't a feature, you had to click on a series of things to get it to work, IIRC. Don't spread false rumors.
It was planned to be a feature when it was created. And, in the off chance that it wasn't, he watched us do it for months, and didn't do anything about it. It's not an exploit. It's a perfectly valid tactic.
<!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Nov 6 2003, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Nov 6 2003, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Isn't skulk bite range + width of the phase gate > electricity attack range? The bite range is much greater than it looks, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> AHh the voice of reason. I can't believe no one else realized this. Electricity range was increased because skulks could still bite them without getting shocked. Thus, when you put a building between the eletricity source you can still bite that building.
Stop running right up against the structure and use your head. Back off a bit then bite.
Where does one draw the line between exploit and valid tactic though? I think most of us agree that building outside the map or through the weldable door on ns_lost is an exploit, as you can do little to counter them.
However electricity abuse is not so much different from other tactics that were branded exploits and have since been fixed. Let's take a look at bile bomb. The exploit with bile bomb was that one could damage structures through a thin wall or floor (example: using bilebomb to destroy structures through the underlying vent at the double res on ns_veil). This was abusing the area of effect of bilebomb which reached through the floor to damage the structures. You could still counter this by equipping a marine with a jetpack and having him fly into the vent and kill the gorge.
Electricity abuse is much the same way. Commanders abuse electricity's area of effect to damage aliens, the effect going through other structures which were not meant to be protected by electricity.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+Nov 6 2003, 01:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ Nov 6 2003, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> if I'm not mistaken, if it's well placed like sticked against the tf, you can't bite it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Correct. I've +use-walked while biting (READ: +use makes you walk slower then walking), and I never hit the PG until a started to get zapped.
listen, its a tactic of NS 2.0 let it be. the more commaders use it the more used to it you become and then u figure out ways to counter it and btw the electrified tf doesnt cover EVERYTHING, and if it does the marines spawning get stuck and it gives u a free lunch besides if the base is empty have a gorge with enuff res to spam 1-3 ocs in the MS
<!--QuoteBegin--Maveric+Nov 6 2003, 12:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ Nov 6 2003, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> drop OC's down... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Using OCs to kill a structure is the biggest waste of res. All the comm has to do is drop a comm chair right next to the electrified building and it will keep the nozzle alive for about 10 minutes, more than enough time to pay off the CC and the electricity. The 20 - 40 res spent dropping OCs to kill something is better spent on going fade or building a healing station so another skulk can bite it.
Compared to gorge bile bomb, I'd say it is not an exploit because a) it does not exceed the realm of believability, and b) it does not require an extraordinary premature expenditure to thwart.
If I chuck a water balloon at a wall, nothing on the other side is going to get wet. It exceeds believability. If I have something that shoots bolts of electricity in a 5 foot radius, it is believable that something placed close to it will be partially protected in that radius.
If a gorge is bile bombing my base from a place that can't be reached without jetpacks, it is a slow, expensive road towards getting that tech. If a structure is partially protected by an electrified RT, I deal with it in much the same way I'd deal with it anyway. Bring a skulk and a gorge to heal. If it can wait 'til someone is a Fade, that works too. If you got a pair of lerks to spike, that works too. There are many ways to deal with it, and none are expenditures that you probably wouldn't have spent anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a tactic. If they want to cluster their buildings together to make it easy to bile bomb, they can.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, and also, 15 res and 30 seconds is <b>nothing</b>. Stop making up stupid-**** arguments!
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>15 resources is cheap as DIRT, and 30 seconds is practically peanuts</span>
Marines used to drop 6+ turrets at base. That's 60 resources, plus more then 30 seconds for a marine to build them all.
15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And guess what? 1.5 turrets is barely even a QUARTER as effective as a bonsai base electrify. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do you pull up these numbers?
To get the ability to electrify, it costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>15</span> res! That's 45 res spent at the start of the game for a elec base!
I mean, if you ask me, elec bases are a completely crap tatic. You can easily get the same effect with 10-20 res spent on mines, and at least one marine guard, and lv. 1 armor to boot.
Only real counters I can think of are base rushes, likely forcing a relocation, or rather than early fade, rushing straight for second hive and a rapid counter-attack.
I don't think its an exploit, just a bit annoying earlygame. At the same time, spam spore is annoying earlygame too, and we've learned to deal with it.
Edit - though I have to say, wouldn't it be nice if electricity wouldn't fire through objects? Just the idea of BB needing virtual LOS sounded like a good thing for electricity.... and I suppose if need be, other structures could be electrified.
If Flayra considered it an exploit, as many of you seem to claim, it would've been fixed one way or another. Whether you believe it is an exploit or not does not matter in the scheme of things, so please, don't post flamebait here.
BTW, Uranium, you're just displaying what little you know about the game here. It costs 30 resources to electrify, and that's a HUGE investment, for something that loses its effectiveness with a quick regen fade (thus why electricity is rarely used in clan games). Think before you speak.
im also sick of marine bases looking like some kind of rejected swiss army knife. it's all you're going to see in clan play (and on any server with a clue).
just require some space between marine structures, _f
<!--QuoteBegin--MadcapMagician+Nov 6 2003, 01:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MadcapMagician @ Nov 6 2003, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Maveric+Nov 6 2003, 12:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maveric @ Nov 6 2003, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> drop OC's down... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Using OCs to kill a structure is the biggest waste of res. All the comm has to do is drop a comm chair right next to the electrified building and it will keep the nozzle alive for about 10 minutes, more than enough time to pay off the CC and the electricity. The 20 - 40 res spent dropping OCs to kill something is better spent on going fade or building a healing station so another skulk can bite it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> not to kill, distract!
if there are turrets in the area they will lock onto the OC's ... but so will the seiges, so you have to send in a onos first. it also distracts any marines comming in: "Oh, S***! OC! MUST KILL!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Frizzled+Nov 6 2003, 06:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frizzled @ Nov 6 2003, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> im also sick of marine bases looking like some kind of rejected swiss army knife. it's all you're going to see in clan play (and on any server with a clue).
just require some space between marine structures, _f <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ya, what's more important, winning, or making a pretty base?
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 6 2003, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh, and also, 15 res and 30 seconds is <b>nothing</b>. Stop making up stupid-**** arguments!
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>15 resources is cheap as DIRT, and 30 seconds is practically peanuts</span>
Marines used to drop 6+ turrets at base. That's 60 resources, plus more then 30 seconds for a marine to build them all.
15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And guess what? 1.5 turrets is barely even a QUARTER as effective as a bonsai base electrify. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do you pull up these numbers?
To get the ability to electrify, it costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>15</span> res! That's 45 res spent at the start of the game for a elec base!
I mean, if you ask me, elec bases are a completely crap tatic. You can easily get the same effect with 10-20 res spent on mines, and at least one marine guard, and lv. 1 armor to boot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 30, 15, it's still cheaper then dropping 5 turrets, and about 10x as effective, is it not?
The point is, compared to old defending, this is a massive resource saver.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50.
Comments
I think it is really silly that an RT can be [ab]used to be a defensive structure. It is somewhat unfair because then it acts like a turret factory that GIVES you resources. I'm NOT whining that this strategy can or cannot be countered (although if lerks really lose their spikes, that will make it even harder), I'm just saying it's silly that an RT should be used as a weapon.
This Thread.
The marines would be the only real threat, and they'd be the same threat without the electricity there.
I could swear I've seen a electrified RT shocking an OC a gorge dropped right next to, it... Even if it doesn't the main point was to block the marine reinforcement. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
IMO, the "bonsai base" as it has so been named, is stupid unless the comm is intelligent, which is more often than not. All you see is "OH, spam ips here, armory, 'insert important structure here' electrify, and done!" Then you end up with a mass telefrag party, all while people have to take turns getting ammo, because the shortbus of a comm made it where two people can get ammo at a time, one on top of armory, and one in the tiny hole on the side. I don't mind bonsai bases, but for the love of god comms, take some consideration into your placement, in FACT, take some consideration into your placement even when you don't grow a bonsai base.
Do you go for the efficient early protection of electricity, at the risk of an easy to lose base in mid-game? You tell me.
Electrifying TFs costs just as much as 3 turrets. It's a dodgy investment , useful early game , but weak soon after.
As far as base placement goes, I've come to the conclusion that some commanders just plain hate their marines. :-/ I joined a server half-way into a game and was faced with either going out without extra ammo or risking death. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<img src='http://www.mastersinformation.com/armory.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
But what can you do that's the way it is: if it's that much of a key location, it's your fault they got there and were able to place a phase, a rt and were able to wait 30 seconds for it to be elec'd
Put a 'minimum space' limit on structures. Something to the effect of 3 feet apart.
Put a 'minimum space' limit on structures. Something to the effect of 3 feet apart. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There was never an ability to electrify any buildings other than the TF/RTs. The <b>bug</b> where you could electrify other buildings wasn't a feature, you had to click on a series of things to get it to work, IIRC. Don't spread false rumors.
It was planned to be a feature when it was created. And, in the off chance that it wasn't, he watched us do it for months, and didn't do anything about it. It's not an exploit. It's a perfectly valid tactic.
AHh the voice of reason. I can't believe no one else realized this. Electricity range was increased because skulks could still bite them without getting shocked. Thus, when you put a building between the eletricity source you can still bite that building.
Stop running right up against the structure and use your head. Back off a bit then bite.
However electricity abuse is not so much different from other tactics that were branded exploits and have since been fixed. Let's take a look at bile bomb. The exploit with bile bomb was that one could damage structures through a thin wall or floor (example: using bilebomb to destroy structures through the underlying vent at the double res on ns_veil). This was abusing the area of effect of bilebomb which reached through the floor to damage the structures. You could still counter this by equipping a marine with a jetpack and having him fly into the vent and kill the gorge.
Electricity abuse is much the same way. Commanders abuse electricity's area of effect to damage aliens, the effect going through other structures which were not meant to be protected by electricity.
Correct. I've +use-walked while biting (READ: +use makes you walk slower then walking), and I never hit the PG until a started to get zapped.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>15 resources is cheap as DIRT, and 30 seconds is practically peanuts</span>
Marines used to drop 6+ turrets at base. That's 60 resources, plus more then 30 seconds for a marine to build them all.
15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And guess what? 1.5 turrets is barely even a QUARTER as effective as a bonsai base electrify.
Using OCs to kill a structure is the biggest waste of res. All the comm has to do is drop a comm chair right next to the electrified building and it will keep the nozzle alive for about 10 minutes, more than enough time to pay off the CC and the electricity. The 20 - 40 res spent dropping OCs to kill something is better spent on going fade or building a healing station so another skulk can bite it.
If I chuck a water balloon at a wall, nothing on the other side is going to get wet. It exceeds believability.
If I have something that shoots bolts of electricity in a 5 foot radius, it is believable that something placed close to it will be partially protected in that radius.
If a gorge is bile bombing my base from a place that can't be reached without jetpacks, it is a slow, expensive road towards getting that tech.
If a structure is partially protected by an electrified RT, I deal with it in much the same way I'd deal with it anyway. Bring a skulk and a gorge to heal. If it can wait 'til someone is a Fade, that works too. If you got a pair of lerks to spike, that works too. There are many ways to deal with it, and none are expenditures that you probably wouldn't have spent anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a tactic. If they want to cluster their buildings together to make it easy to bile bomb, they can.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>15 resources is cheap as DIRT, and 30 seconds is practically peanuts</span>
Marines used to drop 6+ turrets at base. That's 60 resources, plus more then 30 seconds for a marine to build them all.
15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And guess what? 1.5 turrets is barely even a QUARTER as effective as a bonsai base electrify. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you pull up these numbers?
Electrifying costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>30</span> resources!
To get the ability to electrify, it costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>15</span> res! That's 45 res spent at the start of the game for a elec base!
I mean, if you ask me, elec bases are a completely crap tatic. You can easily get the same effect with 10-20 res spent on mines, and at least one marine guard, and lv. 1 armor to boot.
I don't think its an exploit, just a bit annoying earlygame. At the same time, spam spore is annoying earlygame too, and we've learned to deal with it.
Edit - though I have to say, wouldn't it be nice if electricity wouldn't fire through objects? Just the idea of BB needing virtual LOS sounded like a good thing for electricity.... and I suppose if need be, other structures could be electrified.
BTW, Uranium, you're just displaying what little you know about the game here. It costs 30 resources to electrify, and that's a HUGE investment, for something that loses its effectiveness with a quick regen fade (thus why electricity is rarely used in clan games). Think before you speak.
just require some space between marine structures,
_f
Using OCs to kill a structure is the biggest waste of res. All the comm has to do is drop a comm chair right next to the electrified building and it will keep the nozzle alive for about 10 minutes, more than enough time to pay off the CC and the electricity. The 20 - 40 res spent dropping OCs to kill something is better spent on going fade or building a healing station so another skulk can bite it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
not to kill, distract!
if there are turrets in the area they will lock onto the OC's ... but so will the seiges, so you have to send in a onos first. it also distracts any marines comming in: "Oh, S***! OC! MUST KILL!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
just require some space between marine structures,
_f <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ya, what's more important, winning, or making a pretty base?
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'>15 resources is cheap as DIRT, and 30 seconds is practically peanuts</span>
Marines used to drop 6+ turrets at base. That's 60 resources, plus more then 30 seconds for a marine to build them all.
15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And guess what? 1.5 turrets is barely even a QUARTER as effective as a bonsai base electrify. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do you pull up these numbers?
Electrifying costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>30</span> resources!
To get the ability to electrify, it costs <span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'>15</span> res! That's 45 res spent at the start of the game for a elec base!
I mean, if you ask me, elec bases are a completely crap tatic. You can easily get the same effect with 10-20 res spent on mines, and at least one marine guard, and lv. 1 armor to boot. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
30, 15, it's still cheaper then dropping 5 turrets, and about 10x as effective, is it not?
The point is, compared to old defending, this is a massive resource saver.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50.