Electricity Abuse.
Salaman
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9711Members
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9711Members
<div class="IPBDescription">An increasingly common problem.</div> Ok first off so people aren't confused.
Abuse is defined as "Improper use or handling; misuse". The electrify feature was intended to defend only the structure that was electrified. Unfortunately many commanders now take advantage of the electrify affect to defend multiple structures, a purpose that was intended to be fulfilled by sentry turrets and the turret factory.
I realize that electricity has its counters(bilebomb, fade, and onos), but these appear during the mid game, whereas electricity is quickly available with only a 15 res prerequisite.
Though there is the slight problem of "bonsai bases" as they are termed, in which the majority of the marine structures are clustered around an electrified turret factory. While it can be effective, my main issue is with a much more devastating tactic, in which the marines move on a node deep in alien territory (example, ventilation chamber when alien start hive is Cargo bay).
The marines establish an electric RT and place a phase gate that overlaps the RT. This is all done within 5-8 minutes of the start of the game, before electrify counters are available.
The alien team is forced on the defensive as the marines continue to pressure the hive. The aliens cannot dispatch the phase gate as it's guarded by both the electric RT and the marines constantly moving through the gate. The aliens are forced to devote nearly all their effort on the defensive while the marines are able to expand across the map. By the time the aliens aquire bilebomb or fades, the marines have taken about 6 nodes and quickly out tech the alien team.
Am I frustrated because I lost to this tactic? Yes I am, I admit to that. However it's not just the odd game anymore, this abusive tactic continues to gain popularity among commanders. Electricity is meant to fill holes in a turret defense by preventing "blind spots" or to defend a low traffic area RT from the passing skulk. However it is being abused as an active defense for marine outposts and bases which is what turrets are intended for. The best solution I believe would be to make the shock attack not pass through structures to hit units behind them. However I'm not sure how easily it would be to program the electricity to behave as such.
Comments and <b>constructive</b> criticism are welcome <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Abuse is defined as "Improper use or handling; misuse". The electrify feature was intended to defend only the structure that was electrified. Unfortunately many commanders now take advantage of the electrify affect to defend multiple structures, a purpose that was intended to be fulfilled by sentry turrets and the turret factory.
I realize that electricity has its counters(bilebomb, fade, and onos), but these appear during the mid game, whereas electricity is quickly available with only a 15 res prerequisite.
Though there is the slight problem of "bonsai bases" as they are termed, in which the majority of the marine structures are clustered around an electrified turret factory. While it can be effective, my main issue is with a much more devastating tactic, in which the marines move on a node deep in alien territory (example, ventilation chamber when alien start hive is Cargo bay).
The marines establish an electric RT and place a phase gate that overlaps the RT. This is all done within 5-8 minutes of the start of the game, before electrify counters are available.
The alien team is forced on the defensive as the marines continue to pressure the hive. The aliens cannot dispatch the phase gate as it's guarded by both the electric RT and the marines constantly moving through the gate. The aliens are forced to devote nearly all their effort on the defensive while the marines are able to expand across the map. By the time the aliens aquire bilebomb or fades, the marines have taken about 6 nodes and quickly out tech the alien team.
Am I frustrated because I lost to this tactic? Yes I am, I admit to that. However it's not just the odd game anymore, this abusive tactic continues to gain popularity among commanders. Electricity is meant to fill holes in a turret defense by preventing "blind spots" or to defend a low traffic area RT from the passing skulk. However it is being abused as an active defense for marine outposts and bases which is what turrets are intended for. The best solution I believe would be to make the shock attack not pass through structures to hit units behind them. However I'm not sure how easily it would be to program the electricity to behave as such.
Comments and <b>constructive</b> criticism are welcome <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
In effect - if a com electrifies but keeps losing the buildings he wants to upgrade - he's out a good deal of time.
If marines spend their first 5-8 minutes electrifying RTs, they can't research phase tech. So marine system has weakness somewhere.
Teamwork is the key. 1 gorg and 2 skulks can destroy electrified RTs, but then again tha requires skill. But so does using electrified structures efficiently. (Low com skill is to have electrified TF too far from IP <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Another counter is to prevent marines from expanding.
If you know that marines are going to a specific hive. Put 2-3 skulks hiding at their way. Marine team rarely survives from coordinated close encounter.
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> --> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ---> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Quoting for emphasis <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Although, it isn't ALL that much different from setting up a turret factory around a phasegate. Sure, you say "OMG noob you take out the TF and the turrets go down!" No... because that can be electrified as well, leaving you in the same situation, only instead you can't get close without taking SOME damage, where as with the electrified RT/phasegate combo, you can at least get close to the pg and start chewing before you take damage. If it was an electrified TF, you will take damage before you get there, and when you start attacking the TF because of the electricity. Either way, you are going to have to throw mulitple teamates at the PG, with the RT/pg combo, or the TF or PG with the other situation. The point of putting the PG by the RT is so marines don't have to be there constantly, and marines USUALLY aren't. If you had a gorge nearby, with or without adrenaline, and 1 to 2 skulks working on the PG, it will be down in no time, with or without an electric RT, including any marines who might phase through. I've never been in a game where somebody wasn't able to go fade a short time after game start to deal with electricity. Even somebody who isn't a good offense fade, can be even more valuable than a fade owning marines, by destroying electrified structures. I admit I too have been frustrated by electricity, and have lost my fair share of games due to it.
That is, assuming that you want to kill the phasegate.
The important part is to occupy the area that the phasegate is in - then just camp it and all the vanilla marines that pour through become fast food. A gorge standing nearby will cure any bullet holes or electrical burns.
That's all it takes. A gorge and skulks. There are counters to electrification in early game. They just are not as strong as those after the 4 minute mark, like the fade. Why? Because they require teamwork.
Yeah, gorges have a purpose.
drop OC's down and heal spray the skulks as they bite the PG.
if they have a turret farm with that, then their base is possibly weak. send someone to look but not engage (and try not to get caught) and if their base is weakly defended (5 turrets or less) get 3 gorges with 20 res atleast on each to go plant 4 plus OCs and 2-4 DCs with afew skulks as body gaurds. before you know it the marine base will be dead, or atleast heavilly damaged and the marines put on the defensive as they repair and rebuild. use that repair and rebuild time to launch another attack on the PG. have the same gorges (who survived, hopefully) heal spray the skulks as they bite the PG.
if the marines have a massive turret farm with seiges around the node and have a 5 plus turret farm in their base you're in bad shape. if you can get a hive, take it and hold onto them both like you're holding back a knife. have everyone on stand-by... timing is critical once the hive is built. if they dont have a seige in their base, send afew people to distract them and pray they take the bait. once this happens have any gorges that are on stand-by near the elect. node/PG bile bomb rush with any evolution going in first. pray some more, and just go strait for the PG. forget about the turrets; dont drop OCs to distract them, the seige will fire. pray some more. if you're lucky enough you're able to push it back.
if they have HA, all the other hives, and have this setup just concede. there is no real way to win unless afew people are near getting to the onos evolution. if you still want to fight (i'd say you're dillusional...) try every dirty trick you can. misdirection, bullet-soaker onii going in first, dropping buildings to distract seiges while more buildings get built nearby... anything to try to dislodge the marine's standing from offensive to defensive.
major things that can help is hoping that the marines over-extenuate themselves. they stretch themselves too far - too thin - to defend themselves properly from a organized and properly timed attack. cut their res by having almost everone going gorge and spamming resource towers and OCs.
but i am not the extreme...
the TF touches one IP, the armory, armslab and observatory.... nothing more... those are the things in my mind that you can NOT lose early in a game.... hence, giving them electricity.
anyway, the point should be made, and has been made well, thanks for not flaming this one guys.
There's likely to be at least 3 marines hanging back near the RT, who will shoot at you on the approach and will bounce about dodging your attacks while you get shocked. You have only one hive while the marines have 2 IP + beacon, thus giving them a spawn rate advantage as well. The early fade is your best hope but to be effective he requires regeneration, making DC first mandatory when one of the balancing goals of the game is to make all three chambers viable. Like I said before this is only one hive with no bile bomb. OCs will die quickly to marines and it's likely nobody has res to splurge like that(would prefer they go fade). You make it seem like the marines are having a picnic beforehand and then only phase to the outpost after three skulks are camping on top of the phase gate.
Yes you can beat it with teamwork but aliens need 5x more teamwork, getting a balanced group of skulk and gorge, and maybe a lerk and having them attack cohesively is much more difficult than the marine side which has to push E on the gate and then point and click at aliens.
Anyways my main point is that electricity should only protect the building it is applied on, and not the three structures that are partially imbedded in the electric building.
Yes I agree the elec is a cheap tactic... but as part of the game that the aliens must develop a counter for.
Ok, you seem to not be understanding something. The pg is placed near the electric RT so that marines don't have to be there to guard it. If the marines are there guarding, not only is it a complete waste of marine manpower... but the point is to have the RT guard it so marines can continue operations elsewhere in the map. All you need really, is one gorge to come drop a chamber on the PG... I'm under the assumption that an electric structure can attack two targets at once, correct me if I'm wrong. But that OC/"enterchamberhere" will take one of the two spots, and if you had two other skulks with you, one of them won't get electricuted. Not only does the OC take care of marines coming through the gate, while skulks merrily chew away, getting healspray from the gorge. Not only that but the gorge can heal the OC a little too prolonging the PG block. This is purely unnecessary because a little teamwork can EASILY take care of this problem, but you seem to think marines can beat any possible thing you try to do, here is a solution.
Even if the chamber doesn't keep the RT from electricuting both skulks, it still keeps marines from reinforcing. This really isn't a serious problem, I hate it when people say "Oh don't let them do this, or that" but seriously, if they've done this to both hives, it really is the teams fault, and you would probably lose anyway.
I'd hate to think about the possibilities of knives and catpacks too ~shudder~
this comes down to trust...
i just don't trust my marines.... who cares how ""elite"" they are.... electricty and turrets hot more things... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Isn't it 30?
Anyway I usually use attrition. Just keep
going there as skulk, so what if I die I'll
just keep at it. If they come to repair
then "yum yum rine feed".
Although the range could be shortened
on the elec.
Talking of abuse... 4 electrified TF's in a
tight quarter. Wall of lame version 2.
Isn't it 30?
Anyway I usually use attrition. Just keep
going there as skulk, so what if I die I'll
just keep at it. If they come to repair
then "yum yum rine feed".
Although the range could be shortened
on the elec.
Talking of abuse... 4 electrified TF's in a
tight quarter. Wall of lame version 2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Protecting what <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
1)Electricity is pretty costly, 30 res isnt something the marines should be able to just throw away. If the marines are able to waste this kind of res left and right the reason aliens are losing is not because an elec rt.
2)The Phasegate Upgrade, the phase upgrade takes a good ammount of time and if the marine team is building an Ob getting phase gates and electing RTs, this SHOULD mean that they havnt spent much money on upgrades. Time to bust out some fades/onos/lerks.
3)Marines shouldn't be able to get to key locations deep inside alien territory. If marines are getting somewhere aliens REALLY don't want them and are building RTs and phase gates, the alien team deserves to lose. This means that aliens arn't scouting or are not attacking as a team to defend these areas before marines can lock them down.
TEAMWORK is the key to winning at NS.
If you have a team of marines who is working together agaisnt an Alien team of soloists, chances are that the aliens won't live long.
Well, more damage and it will kill skulks in 2-3 hits. Making grouping actually useless anyway. More range is ridiculous too. Why are we giving any structures besides Turrets and Siege Cannons an area-denial quality? It may be reasonable to make the damage a percentage of the target's max health though.
My personal favorite flavor of Electricity involves making it damage the attackers only with an infinite number of targets possible, reduced cost, making Armories and Phasegates electrifiable, and removing electrification from Turret Factories while still requiring them to allow it on other structures. And then you must balance everything else with respect to that...
<b>edit:</b> actually... on second thought... this is where teamwork comes in isn't it? lol
Bile bomb will wreck havok. Imagine 1 bile bomb damaging 3 buildings at once. The only "problem" (hardly) is for early aliens, who are usually skulks, and cant really take down an elec structure(s) without taking a long time.
As someone mentioned above fades are usually around by about 3-4min.
A none issue really.