<!--QuoteBegin--Rage against the Pepsi machine+Nov 6 2003, 12:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rage against the Pepsi machine @ Nov 6 2003, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I realize that electricity has its counters(bilebomb, fade, and onos), but these appear during the mid game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Fade isn't mid-game. Unless 3 minutes is mid-game. I use electrified turret factories as base defense because you can't go any other way on a pub. Asking a pubber to sit and play base defense is like asking a cleptomaniac to gaurd a box of diamonds.
Abuse is using something in an unfair way in a way that it wasn't meant to. Electricity is meant to defend. It defends. Three turrets aren't as reliable as good old electricity. Untill commanders have more options to choose from that are viable as defense in public games. I see nothing wrong with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That would be insane. Do you honestly think anyone would use electricity then? Anyways, electricity's counter is fades and dc first. . . simple as that.
<!--QuoteBegin--BOBDOLOL+Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--BOBDOLOL+Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I know, I use it to defend it so it can electrify my nodes. Just so happens it gaurds my IP's and Armory too.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--BOBDOLOL+Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Nov 7 2003, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 15 resources for electrify is equal to 1.5 turrets. And I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) We're not exactly gonna get anywhere if we assume the whole alien team is full of newbies that don't know how to play the game now are we?
2) Well using dcs isn't completely necessary to counter electricity, but it makes everything much easier and requires a lot less teamwork than mcs. Anyways, each chamber has its own purpose, and imo dcs combined with fades are the counter to electricity. If the marines decide to use the same strategy every game, then wouldn't it make sense that the aliens will use the same counter to that strategy every game?
If the marine team electrifies their base, 2 fades will easily take it out once all the rines leave the base. Its really not overpowered at all. I would rather have 3 turrets than an electrified base.
It's not just newbs that don't know how to use a fade. God, even some of the regulars in lunixmonster won't go fade, and moan 'I suck at it'. Ask anyone, it has THE HIGHEST learning curve.
God have mercy on the day when a commander drops and electrifies two turret factories side by side..
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 12:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God have mercy on the day when a commander drops and electrifies two turret factories side by side.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Shhhh! :X
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing.
Short of implanting common sense into every NSPlayer, the additional balance issues that pub play has over match play (Such as nobody on your team knowing how to play the game) are not issues that can be balanced for. Pub play is best helped not by attempting to tweak balance for it, which cannot be done in any reasonable fashion - but by working on making the game intuitive and user friendly, and encouraging players to play the game seriously, attempt to win, and to learn the various aspects of the game.
If you really think pub play can be balanced for, consider the multitude of posts on the forum complaining about every single element of the game being 'too strong' or 'too weak'. The threads on the A + M strategy forums where pub players from every server across the globe meet, and go at each others throats because they completely dissagree with eachother on which strats are weak, which strats are strong. Every single pub player believes they know exactly what game elements are imbalanced for pub play, and how to fix it. However, none of their stories match up.
The reason for this discrepancy is, these 'issues' that they see in the games they play on their public servers aren't caused by balance issues in the game. They're caused by player issues.
Take Server A populated by a large number of low skilled new players who enjoy playing marine, along with a regular/Admin who is a highly skilled fade. And Server B, a passworded 'regulars' server with a high level of co-operation where most players know eachother, along with experienced regular commanders. Although no one of any exceptional individual ability.
Stick the players of these 2 pub servers on a forum and ask them to talk about balance issues, what do you think the result would be? You cannot make decisions on gameplay changes from the resulting flamefest.
On the other hand, take clan teams of varying abilities from several different countries, who have never played each other before, and you'll find their opinions on game balance are for the most part very similiar. The reason for this is the match environment minimizes player issues, so it is much closer to core gameplay than you will ever find on a public server. When a clan team loses a match, it is never because 1 new player decided he wanted sensory first and the rest of the team spent the next 30 minutes shouting abuse at him before going onos anyway.
This is why you balance for a high level of play, then give new players the means and the encouragement to reach that level. And don't confuse 'balanced for a high level of play' to mean 'only enjoyable at a high level of play' either. Oddly, provided you haven't sampled a taste of high level play, most people seem to find pub NS quite enjoyable :)
As for the topic at hand, we used electricity in this way through every build that had a long enough electric range to do so, and infront of Flayra. Don't try and argue that it was unintended or an 'unforseen consequence'.
"Pub play is just like clan play, it just lags behind a little."
And it's true. I remember actually trying out an elec TFac in a clan match so I could get another guy out on the field rather than guard base. However, all that happens is a gorge and a skulk come along and rip apart your armory, or some other disaster, or you spent 30 res on an turret factory over upgrades, etc. etc. It's only a matter of time before pubbers learn that elec is best used in special cases. Although, on some pub servers, people will NEVER use electricity, and yet they get turret facs... :/ On clan matches, I think elec isn't as useful as you only have to guard your nodes against 6 aliens vs. a standard 8 or 10 player alien team, but on pubs, elec is quite handy to guard an occasional spot. I use it a good amount to call it a good upgrade overall. However, generally I will not electrify every node on the map unless I got mad res to spend and both hives are nice and clear and the aliens are down to a couple of nodes.
Electrfying a base turret factory to protect your starting base is just not the most effiecient way to play. All the vets pretty much realize this as well. Remember reading the changelogs? It was a hot tatic to just electrify base and go out and kill. However, it's not anymore.
Also, will you guys stop using the lunixmonster as an example of your strategy or skills? Good lord, it does NOT help your argument in any way...
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b>
Electricity should target marines and marine structures as well as aliens, just it should only DAMAGE aliens and alien structers. That way you can protect a building by placing an elec TF near it, but attempt to protect too many and the skulk can kill them with ease as the electricity is just discharging onto the nearby buildings.
I think this is much more atmospheric, seeing crackling elec between buildings, and balances out how electricity can be used to protect non-elec buildings.
More and more I'm coming to realize that posting worthwhile evidence for my case is pointless. I need to just repeatedly post in large caps and shout down the opposition. Nobody pays attention to the other sides argument; everybody is too concerned with being right.
<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 6 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 6 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It was planned to be a feature when it was created. And, in the off chance that it wasn't, he watched us do it for months, and didn't do anything about it. It's not an exploit. It's a perfectly valid tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the third time I've had to repeat myself.
Do these boards have a gigantic "IGNORE FRIKK" button that defaults to on?
Pretty simple really. Flay adds new feature to phase gates so that it checks to see if something is on the gate so that you dont telefrag your teamates. He notices that when checking for something aliens and buildings count too and no longer let you go through that phase gate. He thinks I don't like the sound of that and I didn't mean for that to happen, so he magically removes it and deems it an exploit. It just so happens that it is the game he created so he actually has the power to change it.
Btw once people learned they could do it and people didnt consider it an exploit they did it every chance they got. So some people got tired of it and decided you know what I'm gonna make it a point to just ask Flay whether this was intended or not and he decided it was. On the other hand electrifying buildings has been talked about since it first appeared in screenies for 1.1. The first idea I heard was to electrify base node and then build around it. So the idea was down in print since early testing in threads on this forum that Flay posted in. Meaning that he has been well aware of this tactic for a very long time and has made some minor tweaks (requiring tf and an upgrade, and he has changed the range first decreasing it so it wouldn't be so powerful and then increasing to prevent exploits) yet left it with the ability to still protect things around it. I'm pretty sure that would fall under things he intended to have in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 7 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 7 2003, 03:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Nov 6 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Nov 6 2003, 06:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It was planned to be a feature when it was created. And, in the off chance that it wasn't, he watched us do it for months, and didn't do anything about it. It's not an exploit. It's a perfectly valid tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the third time I've had to repeat myself.
Do these boards have a gigantic "IGNORE FRIKK" button that defaults to on? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I turned it off only for this post.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 06:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you for that lesson in how NOT to present an argument. Anyway...
As for standing on a phasegate, it was an exploit for 3 reasons.
a) It was uncounterable unless you already had someone there, in which case you wouldn't need the phase gate anyway. If you had a LOT of turrets and they had no gorge, that could work, but that is "exceptional expenditure". Right off the top of my head I can think of 3 fairly affordable means to take out a structure in the range of an elec TF.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 01:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 01:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope your not serious. I really do. Any the definition of an exploit in this case is whatever the **** flay says in an exploit so if he says using ur lmg is exploiting then pull out ur **** pistol and move on.
Let it be clear that phasegates and your position relative to them is <i>not</i> topic of this thread. Move on and leave that rant for a topic it actually belongs in.
Oh, and Uranium, realize one thing: There won't be further warnings, so don't insult fellow forum members, Flayra included.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Nov 7 2003, 09:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still waiting for TeoH to tell me how standing on the phase gate was considered an exploit, but this isn't. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't really understand the connection...
how is an electric tf an exploit, but sentries which shoot aliens isn't? omg
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced.
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 8 2003, 01:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 8 2003, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 7 2003, 05:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 7 2003, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> "Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow... that's the only part of Toeh and my post you could respond to?
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 8 2003, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 8 2003, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you even know how the system works? There are no specifically coded changes to the resource system in larger or smaller games. The amount of resource income for a <b>team</b> regardless of player size is always the same. 1 Res per tick per resource tower. That is the entire resource system right there, for both teams. No complicated formulas, no team size specific changes and no overflow.
The only reason resource flow appears faster for a small alien team is because the exact same amount of resources are being shared between fewer aliens. This allows for some more expensive purchases to be available earlier, but does not alter the total amount of resources the team has to spend. I've already discussed the issue and why there is no easy solution to it, in a thread you posted in no less. Although reading your post in that thread its obvious you don't understand my post or the resource situation at all. You can search for it if you like, i have no intention of regurgitating it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well gee, thankyou for that fantastic peek into the mind of your imaginary Flayra, i'm sure he appreciates it. Phase gate behaviour was Max's change, and his reason for the change was that the original behaviour brought up factors he didn't entirely intend. I doubt gameplay issues were ever a concern of his when he decided to 'fix' his PG code. Now as a player, i'm only concerned with gameplay issues, yet since this is a very small change, and since it benefits marines who were arguably the weaker side at the time, i have no issues with it. Infact i don't even recall him labelling it an exploit, not that i ever take much notice of the word. Now that i've explained the reasons for the PG change, would you mind explaining what your little outburst has to do with the thread, or my post, if anything? Or is it simply you seeing an opportunity to make a 1 sentance, off-topic, flamebaiting dig at an issue you have a strong opinion about - yet no real worthy arguments to start a new thread with. Ala CWAG?
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 8 2003, 04:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 8 2003, 04:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Nov 8 2003, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Nov 8 2003, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you even know how the system works? There are no specifically coded changes to the resource system in larger or smaller games. The amount of resource income for a <b>team</b> regardless of player size is always the same. 1 Res per tick per resource tower. That is the entire resource system right there, for both teams. No complicated formulas, no team size specific changes and no overflow.
The only reason resource flow appears faster for a small alien team is because the exact same amount of resources are being shared between fewer aliens. This allows for some more expensive purchases to be available earlier, but does not alter the total amount of resources the team has to spend. I've already discussed the issue and why there is no easy solution to it, in a thread you posted in no less. Although reading your post in that thread its obvious you don't understand my post or the resource situation at all. You can search for it if you like, i have no intention of regurgitating it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well gee, thankyou for that fantastic peek into the mind of your imaginary Flayra, i'm sure he appreciates it. Phase gate behaviour was Max's change, and his reason for the change was that the original behaviour brought up factors he didn't entirely intend. I doubt gameplay issues were ever a concern of his when he decided to 'fix' his PG code. Now as a player, i'm only concerned with gameplay issues, yet since this is a very small change, and since it benefits marines who were arguably the weaker side at the time, i have no issues with it. Infact i don't even recall him labelling it an exploit, not that i ever take much notice of the word. Now that i've explained the reasons for the PG change, would you mind explaining what your little outburst has to do with the thread, or my post, if anything? Or is it simply you seeing an opportunity to make a 1 sentance, off-topic, flamebaiting dig at an issue you have a strong opinion about - yet no real worthy arguments to start a new thread with. Ala CWAG? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok please explain to me then, In small games, how marines are supposed to be tactical and use strategy to combat something like Onos within 2-3 minutes of game start.
Comments
I realize that electricity has its counters(bilebomb, fade, and onos), but these appear during the mid game <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fade isn't mid-game. Unless 3 minutes is mid-game. I use electrified turret factories as base defense because you can't go any other way on a pub. Asking a pubber to sit and play base defense is like asking a cleptomaniac to gaurd a box of diamonds.
Abuse is using something in an unfair way in a way that it wasn't meant to. Electricity is meant to defend. It defends. Three turrets aren't as reliable as good old electricity. Untill commanders have more options to choose from that are viable as defense in public games. I see nothing wrong with it.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be insane. Do you honestly think anyone would use electricity then? Anyways, electricity's counter is fades and dc first. . . simple as that.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know, I use it to defend it so it can electrify my nodes. Just so happens it gaurds my IP's and Armory too.
I say increase cost of electricity to as high as 50. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
electricity's counter is fades and dc first
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) 90% of pubbers have no idea how to even use a fade.
2) Whaddaya know, I don't think encouraging a specific chamber first is a right idea.
CWAG, electricity is meant to defend THE TURRET FACTORY. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) We're not exactly gonna get anywhere if we assume the whole alien team is full of newbies that don't know how to play the game now are we?
2) Well using dcs isn't completely necessary to counter electricity, but it makes everything much easier and requires a lot less teamwork than mcs. Anyways, each chamber has its own purpose, and imo dcs combined with fades are the counter to electricity. If the marines decide to use the same strategy every game, then wouldn't it make sense that the aliens will use the same counter to that strategy every game?
If the marine team electrifies their base, 2 fades will easily take it out once all the rines leave the base. Its really not overpowered at all. I would rather have 3 turrets than an electrified base.
God have mercy on the day when a commander drops and electrifies two turret factories side by side..
Shhhh! :X
Public gaming balance is irrelivant, too I hear.
"Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing.
Short of implanting common sense into every NSPlayer, the additional balance issues that pub play has over match play (Such as nobody on your team knowing how to play the game) are not issues that can be balanced for. Pub play is best helped not by attempting to tweak balance for it, which cannot be done in any reasonable fashion - but by working on making the game intuitive and user friendly, and encouraging players to play the game seriously, attempt to win, and to learn the various aspects of the game.
If you really think pub play can be balanced for, consider the multitude of posts on the forum complaining about every single element of the game being 'too strong' or 'too weak'. The threads on the A + M strategy forums where pub players from every server across the globe meet, and go at each others throats because they completely dissagree with eachother on which strats are weak, which strats are strong. Every single pub player believes they know exactly what game elements are imbalanced for pub play, and how to fix it. However, none of their stories match up.
The reason for this discrepancy is, these 'issues' that they see in the games they play on their public servers aren't caused by balance issues in the game. They're caused by player issues.
Take Server A populated by a large number of low skilled new players who enjoy playing marine, along with a regular/Admin who is a highly skilled fade. And Server B, a passworded 'regulars' server with a high level of co-operation where most players know eachother, along with experienced regular commanders. Although no one of any exceptional individual ability.
Stick the players of these 2 pub servers on a forum and ask them to talk about balance issues, what do you think the result would be? You cannot make decisions on gameplay changes from the resulting flamefest.
On the other hand, take clan teams of varying abilities from several different countries, who have never played each other before, and you'll find their opinions on game balance are for the most part very similiar. The reason for this is the match environment minimizes player issues, so it is much closer to core gameplay than you will ever find on a public server. When a clan team loses a match, it is never because 1 new player decided he wanted sensory first and the rest of the team spent the next 30 minutes shouting abuse at him before going onos anyway.
This is why you balance for a high level of play, then give new players the means and the encouragement to reach that level. And don't confuse 'balanced for a high level of play' to mean 'only enjoyable at a high level of play' either. Oddly, provided you haven't sampled a taste of high level play, most people seem to find pub NS quite enjoyable :)
As for the topic at hand, we used electricity in this way through every build that had a long enough electric range to do so, and infront of Flayra. Don't try and argue that it was unintended or an 'unforseen consequence'.
I do believe as to quote Flayra himself:
"Pub play is just like clan play, it just lags behind a little."
And it's true. I remember actually trying out an elec TFac in a clan match so I could get another guy out on the field rather than guard base. However, all that happens is a gorge and a skulk come along and rip apart your armory, or some other disaster, or you spent 30 res on an turret factory over upgrades, etc. etc. It's only a matter of time before pubbers learn that elec is best used in special cases. Although, on some pub servers, people will NEVER use electricity, and yet they get turret facs... :/ On clan matches, I think elec isn't as useful as you only have to guard your nodes against 6 aliens vs. a standard 8 or 10 player alien team, but on pubs, elec is quite handy to guard an occasional spot. I use it a good amount to call it a good upgrade overall. However, generally I will not electrify every node on the map unless I got mad res to spend and both hives are nice and clear and the aliens are down to a couple of nodes.
Electrfying a base turret factory to protect your starting base is just not the most effiecient way to play. All the vets pretty much realize this as well. Remember reading the changelogs? It was a hot tatic to just electrify base and go out and kill. However, it's not anymore.
Also, will you guys stop using the lunixmonster as an example of your strategy or skills? Good lord, it does NOT help your argument in any way...
"Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b>
I think this is much more atmospheric, seeing crackling elec between buildings, and balances out how electricity can be used to protect non-elec buildings.
This is the third time I've had to repeat myself.
Do these boards have a gigantic "IGNORE FRIKK" button that defaults to on?
Btw once people learned they could do it and people didnt consider it an exploit they did it every chance they got. So some people got tired of it and decided you know what I'm gonna make it a point to just ask Flay whether this was intended or not and he decided it was. On the other hand electrifying buildings has been talked about since it first appeared in screenies for 1.1. The first idea I heard was to electrify base node and then build around it. So the idea was down in print since early testing in threads on this forum that Flay posted in. Meaning that he has been well aware of this tactic for a very long time and has made some minor tweaks (requiring tf and an upgrade, and he has changed the range first decreasing it so it wouldn't be so powerful and then increasing to prevent exploits) yet left it with the ability to still protect things around it. I'm pretty sure that would fall under things he intended to have in the game.
This is the third time I've had to repeat myself.
Do these boards have a gigantic "IGNORE FRIKK" button that defaults to on? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I turned it off only for this post.
Did someone hear something?
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where did that quote come from? .....freaky.
Thank you for that lesson in how NOT to present an argument. Anyway...
As for standing on a phasegate, it was an exploit for 3 reasons.
a) It was uncounterable unless you already had someone there, in which case you wouldn't need the phase gate anyway. If you had a LOT of turrets and they had no gorge, that could work, but that is "exceptional expenditure". Right off the top of my head I can think of 3 fairly affordable means to take out a structure in the range of an elec TF.
b) Flayra said so
c) Flayra said so
"Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
If you give me a situation where 1 team is using a tactic, and i point out a perfectly workable counter, the game is not unbalanced if you lose after not using this counter because you didn't know what you were doing. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes <b>OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hope your not serious. I really do. Any the definition of an exploit in this case is whatever the **** flay says in an exploit so if he says using ur lmg is exploiting then pull out ur **** pistol and move on.
Oh, and Uranium, realize one thing: There won't be further warnings, so don't insult fellow forum members, Flayra included.
I don't really understand the connection...
how is an electric tf an exploit, but sentries which shoot aliens isn't? omg
"Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced.
"Balancing for Public Play" is a myth, since the primary balance issue in pub play is that people don't know what they're doing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, so, because people who pub (like me) are stupid, and inferior, Small games (less than 5v5) reward aliens with extra resources. Oh, Ok. 2 minute onos seems perfectly balanced. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow... that's the only part of Toeh and my post you could respond to?
Impressive.
Do you even know how the system works? There are no specifically coded changes to the resource system in larger or smaller games. The amount of resource income for a <b>team</b> regardless of player size is always the same. 1 Res per tick per resource tower. That is the entire resource system right there, for both teams. No complicated formulas, no team size specific changes and no overflow.
The only reason resource flow appears faster for a small alien team is because the exact same amount of resources are being shared between fewer aliens. This allows for some more expensive purchases to be available earlier, but does not alter the total amount of resources the team has to spend. I've already discussed the issue and why there is no easy solution to it, in a thread you posted in no less. Although reading your post in that thread its obvious you don't understand my post or the resource situation at all. You can search for it if you like, i have no intention of regurgitating it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well gee, thankyou for that fantastic peek into the mind of your imaginary Flayra, i'm sure he appreciates it. Phase gate behaviour was Max's change, and his reason for the change was that the original behaviour brought up factors he didn't entirely intend. I doubt gameplay issues were ever a concern of his when he decided to 'fix' his PG code. Now as a player, i'm only concerned with gameplay issues, yet since this is a very small change, and since it benefits marines who were arguably the weaker side at the time, i have no issues with it. Infact i don't even recall him labelling it an exploit, not that i ever take much notice of the word. Now that i've explained the reasons for the PG change, would you mind explaining what your little outburst has to do with the thread, or my post, if anything? Or is it simply you seeing an opportunity to make a 1 sentance, off-topic, flamebaiting dig at an issue you have a strong opinion about - yet no real worthy arguments to start a new thread with. Ala CWAG?
Do you even know how the system works? There are no specifically coded changes to the resource system in larger or smaller games. The amount of resource income for a <b>team</b> regardless of player size is always the same. 1 Res per tick per resource tower. That is the entire resource system right there, for both teams. No complicated formulas, no team size specific changes and no overflow.
The only reason resource flow appears faster for a small alien team is because the exact same amount of resources are being shared between fewer aliens. This allows for some more expensive purchases to be available earlier, but does not alter the total amount of resources the team has to spend. I've already discussed the issue and why there is no easy solution to it, in a thread you posted in no less. Although reading your post in that thread its obvious you don't understand my post or the resource situation at all. You can search for it if you like, i have no intention of regurgitating it here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Standing on a phase gate. Wait, that's SO easy to counter (Like, um, put a couple turrets there? A mine, even?) and Flayra goes OMG TEH EKSPOLIT!!!111!1F4 F4 BAN BAN EKSPLOOT!!!!!!111!1oneoneone!!1
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well gee, thankyou for that fantastic peek into the mind of your imaginary Flayra, i'm sure he appreciates it. Phase gate behaviour was Max's change, and his reason for the change was that the original behaviour brought up factors he didn't entirely intend. I doubt gameplay issues were ever a concern of his when he decided to 'fix' his PG code. Now as a player, i'm only concerned with gameplay issues, yet since this is a very small change, and since it benefits marines who were arguably the weaker side at the time, i have no issues with it. Infact i don't even recall him labelling it an exploit, not that i ever take much notice of the word. Now that i've explained the reasons for the PG change, would you mind explaining what your little outburst has to do with the thread, or my post, if anything? Or is it simply you seeing an opportunity to make a 1 sentance, off-topic, flamebaiting dig at an issue you have a strong opinion about - yet no real worthy arguments to start a new thread with. Ala CWAG? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok please explain to me then, In small games, how marines are supposed to be tactical and use strategy to combat something like Onos within 2-3 minutes of game start.