You sound like you have had a pretty hard time. I am sorry that you had a bad epexrience with christianity, but, we are not all like that.
God isnt making you suffer. Why would he be interested in you? you have never done anything for him, you curse him, you hate his guts (if he has any) Why should he take your pain away? tell me that. Why should he do anything for you? he doesnt need you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I do nothing but good for the rest of my life and (if there is a heaven) still go to hell, then thats not a God I want to worship. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good by whose standards? yours? your teacher's? or Gods?
Before the accident, I was a christian. My parents raised me to do good. I never did anything wrong in my eyes...
but I guess my eyes aren't gods eyes. Hell, I never asked for anything, I had such a good life until the accident, then it went all down hill...
Im sorry, but in my mind hardcore christians are the largest hypocrits ever. They think that just because they beleive something, that makes them right, and since they are right, everybody else is wrong and then they force their beleifs on anybody else who doesn't hold the same view as them.
So... playing with Marine's words complete with smiles and winks to show my usual cheeky tone is not only to be taken lethally seriously but it's shrieking too huh? o.O As far as your posts have shown you don't seem to have any patience to lose... heck you give off this aura that you're going through that difficult set of teen years where you're old enough to have a decent mass of knowledge growing but you're too young to realise you've still got a lot to learn. We've all been there, we've all thought we knew everything and that the people who argued otherwise were close-minded fools but it'll pass... and you'll learn. I'm not talking about religion now; I'm talking about attitude; I don't care what religion you follow if any but if you're going to bark and scream like you know better don't expect me to take you seriously. If you did philosophy you should be well acquainted with the quote "The only thing I truly know is that I know nothing" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, if it is heavy christian stuff, why did i find it in a philosophy book which treates all concepts of God as equal, and why, when i said this to my philosophy teacher, who is definitely not christian, why did she agree with me?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because she had the space of a conversation to really look at the context of your exact word usage instead of having it shoved in her face every day you decide to grace her with your presence... even if it's got nothing to do with what you're talking about? The statement itself isn't too far off the mark like I've been saying and you've been ignoring; you just worded it wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far, you are the only person who has said anything much about it (ie thats fricking annoying) while 2 athiests (my A level philoposhy teachers) have said "thats a good point"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact I remember seeing someone actually post in one of the threads here where you arguing saying your sig was annoying kinda makes me think otherwise... The fact you seem adept at missing what people say half the time because you're caught up in some zealot whirlwind doesn't convince me either -.-
Because you somehow missed the point the first time I'll try again; Agnostics don't know. <b>They aren't trying to convince anyone of their point of view because they do not have one as such.</b> Most agnostic stuff is just 'why?' Christian stuff is 'GOD IS REAL!!!' and athiest stuff is 'HE IS NOT!!!' Seeing the difference yet? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
They might 'live without god' but they're open to it and asking you why they should buy your version of the book instead of the athiest one and there you are squealing back at him he has to prove his position o.O
~gives burr a cookie~ sorry to hear life's taken such nasty turns on you =/
Not all religions are about "Heaven" and "Hell", Burr. But I can understand where your coming from.
Buddhism, you do good in this life, and in the next life you will be better. That's the one reason why I think Buddhism > any BIG super-organized religion. Buddhism really has no Clergy, no priests, no clerics, no "orders". Sure, there are Buddhist Monks who contemplate but they do not preach, they do not try to convert. They just meditate trying to reach the higher plane of existence.
The three things that really killed any chance of me having faith happened fairly young. The first thing was my Father leaving my mother. Now, I will admit that my Mother isn't a very strict Christian but she still went to Church and the whole nine yards, but my Father left her when I was two years old. The second thing that happened was my best friend (and now girlfriend) had cancer when she was...5 I believe. She was pure, and clean and good and everything that deserves to live in this world, but did God deem it fit for her not to need to suffer? and suffer she did, chemo, spinal taps, drugs that might have made her infertile. Any God that would put someone so good through that doesn't deserve followers. and the third and final thing is my little sister. She died when I was 9 and she was 3. Three years old, and she died of a one-in-a-two-or-three-million disease. Three years old, and she was the only reason I was happy. However much I said I didn't like her, she was the light of my life and when she died I cursed God, and when a Christian came up to my mother at the funeral and said, "God wanted to hold Emily tight, so he took her into his embrace." I felt the first flickerings of homicidal rage. I was half-tempted to respond, "What? God didn't think it fit that we get to have her first? He is undying, but we are. Didn't we deserve to see her live?" That's when I lost my faith, and if I were to believe in Him again, it would take my Father coming back into my life, my little sister back alive, aged the 9 years she's been dead and matured that much, and my girlfriend not being phobic of needles, not having to worry about whether she'll have to adopt instead of having her own child, and her not being afraid of her lower spine being touched.
i donkt know why we suffer. i would guess that it is because we turned our back on God. Why was Burr involved in the accident? why did Emily die when she was 3? i honestly dont know, and it isnt me you should be talking to about this. People have been through a lot, but have they ever loved someone enough to die for them?
its time to get back to reality. i realise i have probably made more than a few people more than slightly annoyed, and, for that, I apologise. The original question was "What would it take to make you believe?" For me, it took an easter service. I would love to say that I haven't looked back, but I do all the time. All christians have doubts about thier faith at some time or another. I will change my sig, however, as it appears to be generating more bad than good. I may be going through one of those typical Teenage "I am always right", in fact, i probably am. oh well
~huggle~ you're nice really, I just got miffed when you started taking it all a bit too seriously. I know you were getting a bit angry with me too though and I know how it feels. In religious arguements people on all sides start to suffer from the frustration effect any normal person gets when talking to a less-than-intelligent person; you can see the logic of your own arguements and viewpoint perfectly, it all makes sense to you and anyone who looks at it yet time and time again the silly person somehow misses it completely and you're pretty much still where you started! In the case of the religion-based stuff it's luckily nothing to do with being stupid and almost entirely due to the fact everyone is different with their own view of how things are and they tend to entrench themselves in their positions once the arguement raises it's head. After that happens nobody is going nowhere lol <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
~gives boggle a cookie~ What happened at easter anyways, if you don't mind my whiskers twitching =o
do you mean what happened to me? It was just another easter service celebrating the death and ressurection of Jesus and it really got to me. I decided that if someone loves me enough to die for me, he deserves all I can give him
But you can't give him anything boggle he's dead as a can of spam now <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
*pokes at boggle with a copy of red dwarf season 1 episode 4*, *chuckles*
Marine, pascals vager? That's so easily refuted it's not funny. I can imagine a god that will punish you for all eternity for believing there is a god. You speak of heaven as the only possible alternative.
How I see it is that there is an almost infinitesimal chance that the particular god you have chosen exists, an almost infinitesimal chance he cares about you should he exist and some small chance that should he exist and care anything about us puny little humans that he will send people to heaven, and some tiny chance that he agrees with what you think is nice.
I can easily imagine a selfish god that want's to watch us like an action movie and want's us to cause as much havoc as we possibly can. You are making assumption on assumption on assumption. I find it very arrogant to presume you know the nature and intent of god should he exist. I gamble as much in believing in god in one form or another as I do in not believing in god since there is no reason for me to think he will agree with me on what's naughty and nice or that he shares any nice pipe dreams I may have of living forever in a place where everything is as nice as it can possibly be for me.
I say this because I am not christian and I am not convinced that any religion has any bearing on reality, therefor I gamble as much either way. So I might as well have fun while I am alive.
I suspect that you enjoy christianity no matter if it is just a mind game you are playing on yourself or not. If this is correct then you are in fact living it up, just like me.
Agnosticism and atheism differs in that atheists state their disbelief in any existing belief system, where as agnosticists merely doubt. Stating your disbelief in something is NOT refusing it entirely, it is saying that you think it is so improbable that you do not merely doubt it but will reject it out of hand.
Applied to a lottery, being a christian is like saying you irrationally believe nr. 12519841798745287352375987451093247 is the winning number, being an agnosticist is saying you doubt this is so but are unsure of themselves, an atheist openly says that they do not believe this is the winning number nothing more. Fair analogy or not, you be the judge, but saying you do not believe that nr 12519841798745287352375987451093247 will not be the winning number in a lottery is hardly saying that _it cannot happen_ now is it?
I think organized religion is the pinacle of cowardize. You don't have to think for yourself, you just inherit the faith of those before you, and you believe in god because you wan't some reward in the end. Call me crazy but if I was god I would punish people trying suck up to me and beging and pleading like cowards allthough I have shown my lack of interest in them with my complete absence.
I do not have any idea what god might be if 'it' exists so I do not expect saying that "god is a pussfilled pile of congealed monkey vomit" will be any less of a gamble then saying "oh dear lord, who governs us small and sinful lambs who are your followers I beg forgiveness for anything I may have inadvertenly done to offend you etc...".
I find a god that creates a Universe and populates it with tiny and in comparision inanely stupid creatures and then expects those creatures to follow some irrational beliefs that 'it' may have introduced to some of the primitive creatures in early times to be a somewhat insane god and one I find particularilly improbable. Especially since god created the rules of said hypothetical Universe and created the inhabitants of said Universe. Unless those creatures are endowed with some 'special juice' some free will not of this Universe then they have no free will, it is just a big game of chance(if god doesn't interfere it is 'just a bunch of chemical reactions') that the creatures themselves are powerless to predict. If said 'special juice' is applied to the mix, it is in the end controlled by god since he created it and applied it. Why does this make me think of little children brakeing their mechano since it didn't turn out as expected?
Such a god would quite frankly disgust me, why would I lick his feet in the hopes of some sort of better life? That is pure cowardice. I do not expect god, should it exists, to be an inconsiderate **** so I don't take christianity very seriously.
I am not an amoral person, it is very simple to justify why you should not go on a killing spree with an axe in your local shoping mall without irrational beliefs. I am very dependent on other people and so are all of us. Society brings me happiness, I cannot make things like math literature, snapple, half-life 2 or kapten chrunchy breakfast cereal, I am dependant on others to do this for me and society depends on people like me and everyone else to do what they are good at, or at least what they reasonable can do to help society along. So obviously if people take an axe to the local mall and kill some people that's not a good thing for yourself or society, ergo I don't take an axe and kill a bunch of people in the local mall. As if this alone wasn't enough of a justification society has deviced a way of protecting itself by introducing punishment for those who disrupt it. It would not make me very happy to spend a long time in a small room without lack of freedom to do the things I like most, that's a very compelling reason for me not to go on a random killing spree.
Also, killing people would make me physically feel bad, because survival depends on cooperation, and somewhat likely natural-selection has caused those that are cooperative or those adverse to killing each others to survive better and spread.
Religion has on the other hand often been the justification for murder, a way to push those who are hesitant over the edge against their instinct not to. It has been used as a justification in wars and ritual suicides and satanistic killings of virgins and in burning black people(pressumably they where envious of their skins richness in melanine but what do I know <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and killing the jewish people and all sorts of bizarre and grusome things most find quite unthinkable. This of course has nothing to do with you or most religions in themselves(I say most because there are exceptions, like nazism), I'm just saying irrational beliefs are have been quite exploitable by power crazed raving mad lunatics in past times. There is of course 'evil'(things most people agree are bad) without the use of religion, just that I don't believe there would have been nearly this much of it.
For any good thing, there is some bad person using it to his advantage. What the christians did, starting wars, forcing thier religion down other peoples throats, was wrong. for what it is worth, i would like to apologise on their behalf. I would like to think that we have learned from our mistakes, but, we, like the rest of you, are only human, we are not infalliable
Marine01 wasnt talking about pascal's wager. He was saying that if you do not know, and you have no belief either way, why dont you live as if there was a God, instead of living as if there isnt. its not a saftey net because you do not believe in God, it is just a different way of life. If you live as if there was no God, you might as well be an athiest.
I suppose the major question is, being an agnostic, if i could convince you that God does exist, would it change your life in any way?
First of all, Christianity IS different from any other religion on the face of the planet.
Every other religion says what you must to to get to God, or enlightenment, or happiness, or whatever your goal is. Christianity is the only one that says that God himself took pain and torture upon himself, that God has already done something to get you into heaven, to let you have everlasting life. That's unpreceidented.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applied to a lottery, being a christian is like saying you irrationally believe nr. 12519841798745287352375987451093247 is the winning number, being an agnosticist is saying you doubt this is so but are unsure of themselves, an atheist openly says that they do not believe this is the winning number nothing more. Fair analogy or not, you be the judge, but saying you do not believe that nr 12519841798745287352375987451093247 will not be the winning number in a lottery is hardly saying that _it cannot happen_ now is it? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a 5 minute run-down of why I think that Christianity really is the only really rational religion.
Buddhism: A nice, doop outlook, but it's a worldview, not a religion. Eliminate desire through purifying your mind, eliminating suffering. It's nice, but it's not a religion, not a faith, and provides no evidence to the fact that it's anything more than one man's musings on how to overcome the lows in the human condition.
Islam: Claims that Allah spoke through earlyer incorrect prophets, provides little proof to Muhammed's divinity or inspiration, and states that people are sinful, yet never provides an explanation as to how us sinful people are allowed to enter heaven.
Judaism: Has all the credibility in the world, but fulfilled by Christ.
And that's the big three right there.
Saying that Pascal's wager is wrong because there is more than one religion is like saying that I shouldn't have ice cream because there are different flavors. However, unlike personal preference in flavors of ice cream, there is a definate absolute truth. Saying there is none asserts that there is an absolute truth, and counters it's own argument. One of these worldviews is right, and IMO, the only real choice is between accepting Christ as Lord or denying his divinity, cursing his name, and casting his gift aside.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can easily imagine a selfish god that want's to watch us like an action movie and want's us to cause as much havoc as we possibly can. You are making assumption on assumption on assumption. I find it very arrogant to presume you know the nature and intent of god should he exist. I gamble as much in believing in god in one form or another as I do in not believing in god since there is no reason for me to think he will agree with me on what's naughty and nice or that he shares any nice pipe dreams I may have of living forever in a place where everything is as nice as it can possibly be for me. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can we know the nature of God? Because he has given us 66 books that outline his plan to save humanity since the fall of man, because he tells us what he himself is like, and he gives us ample evidence to make an educated inference on what his motives are. But his motives are not important, merely his actions, merely what He has said He has already done, and wether we choose to accept that or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think organized religion is the pinacle of cowardize. You don't have to think for yourself, you just inherit the faith of those before you, and you believe in god because you wan't some reward in the end. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how being encoraged to open the bible, read and interpret for yourself, learn to weild this incredible truth that has been given to us with great dexterity, and how accepting the truth is not thinking for yourself? Explain to me how withstanding beatings and painful death for one's beliefs is cowardice?
We want eternal life, but so does everyone who ever took pen to paper, paint to canvas, or chisel to stone and tried to make their own splash in this little pond here. You feel like a big man because you don't want to live forever? Because you have circumvented basic human needs and desires, you feel like you're better than thousands of generations of Monets, Beethovens, and Shakespeares?
The only difference between living on through Christ and living on through our own works is that Christ told us jsut where he came from, just where we were going, and exactly what the alternative was. Commiting yourself entirely to other means of trying to live forever is like casting your seeds to the wind.
God, or a believable representative (ie an Angel) would have to come to me, and prove that he/she/it is, indeed, an omnipotent being. Then again, it would be possible for a non-deity being (let's say there is a being akin to an Angel, but not a God, so to speak) to try and masquerade itself as a God... as an ordinary human being, there's no way for me to know.
Also, this is going from the Christian idea of God (he created everything), as opposed to a God that just happens to be here, is very powerful and is taking care of things.
That's about it as plainly as I can put it, I guess.
You say that Christianity is "rational", but is it really? Some guy died on the cross a VERY long time ago for my sins, there's a God that just sorta... "existed" and created everything, poof, just like that. He's supposed to be all-powerful, all-omnipotent, etc. etc... and a being like this is just THERE? I'm just supposed to accept this? He's not logical. It's the unanswerable question; things have to come from somewhere or something, or so we believe, except that in Christianity, God just IS. Rational? I don't think so.
As for books, there's no proof that they're infallible. The Bible, the Koran, any of those books; you can't PROVE that they were written by the hand of God himself, or by a human influenced by God. Not to mention how many different versions of each book there are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only difference between living on through Christ and living on through our own works is that Christ told us jsut where he came from, just where we were going, and exactly what the alternative was. Commiting yourself entirely to other means of trying to live forever is like casting your seeds to the wind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes, the wind will take you to newer, better places.
<!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about being athiest is that, for me anyway, i dont really need fairy tells from centuries ago to fulfill my life. It was just a way of explaining things for them. Nowdays with all the new technology and such there is no reason for religion to exist anymore. That is why people are becoming athiest/agnostic. It was great in its time but now its time to be a little more practicle. We have electicity now and advanced mathamatics, religion is only still popular because parents and family/friends say its the truth, and used to be a way of life. Like i just said now that we can start explaining the reasons of why we exist (big bang) and physics we don't need the consuption of alcholo or hordes of armys anymore (unlike the middle east). Progreesion is the way of life. After a while longer, relgion will be something studied in history class and kids have to write essays on. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To all those who still believe well its your choice to be stuck in the past not mine. So have fun!! (Or an excuse to kill people) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about being athiest is that, for me anyway, i dont really need fairy tells from centuries ago to fulfill my life. It was just a way of explaining things for them. Nowdays with all the new technology and such there is no reason for religion to exist anymore. That is why people are becoming athiest/agnostic. It was great in its time but now its time to be a little more practicle. We have electicity now and advanced mathamatics, religion is only still popular because parents and family/friends say its the truth, and used to be a way of life. Like i just said now that we can start explaining the reasons of why we exist (big bang) and physics we don't need the consuption of alcholo or hordes of armys anymore (unlike the middle east). Progreesion is the way of life. After a while longer, relgion will be something studied in history class and kids have to write essays on. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To all those who still believe well its your choice to be stuck in the past not mine. So have fun!! (Or an excuse to kill people) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 20 2003, 08:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 20 2003, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about being athiest is that, for me anyway, i dont really need fairy tells from centuries ago to fulfill my life. It was just a way of explaining things for them. Nowdays with all the new technology and such there is no reason for religion to exist anymore. That is why people are becoming athiest/agnostic. It was great in its time but now its time to be a little more practicle. We have electicity now and advanced mathamatics, religion is only still popular because parents and family/friends say its the truth, and used to be a way of life. Like i just said now that we can start explaining the reasons of why we exist (big bang) and physics we don't need the consuption of alcholo or hordes of armys anymore (unlike the middle east). Progreesion is the way of life. After a while longer, relgion will be something studied in history class and kids have to write essays on. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To all those who still believe well its your choice to be stuck in the past not mine. So have fun!! (Or an excuse to kill people) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Explain to me
If anyone has read the book <i>American Gods</i> by Neil Gaiman...I'd believe if my chosen Deity/Deities just walked up to me one day and said, "You alone have kept Faith. Have a cookie." and then take me to the Merrygoround in the EXACT center of the world. Yeah, i'd believe that too. And if I saw the All-Father (Odin).
(Sorry if Double-Post, forums giving me some issues)
<!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 20 2003, 08:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 20 2003, 08:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 20 2003, 08:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 20 2003, 08:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 20 2003, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--{[-Flint-]}+Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({[-Flint-]} @ Oct 19 2003, 09:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing about being athiest is that, for me anyway, i dont really need fairy tells from centuries ago to fulfill my life. It was just a way of explaining things for them. Nowdays with all the new technology and such there is no reason for religion to exist anymore. That is why people are becoming athiest/agnostic. It was great in its time but now its time to be a little more practicle. We have electicity now and advanced mathamatics, religion is only still popular because parents and family/friends say its the truth, and used to be a way of life. Like i just said now that we can start explaining the reasons of why we exist (big bang) and physics we don't need the consuption of alcholo or hordes of armys anymore (unlike the middle east). Progreesion is the way of life. After a while longer, relgion will be something studied in history class and kids have to write essays on. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> To all those who still believe well its your choice to be stuck in the past not mine. So have fun!! (Or an excuse to kill people) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Explain to me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Comfort, purpose, love, greater meaning, fellowship, sense of belonging....
Getting the picture? Science tells how things are. Christ says not only how things are, but how things should be, what you can do to make that happen.
Comfort, purpose, love, greater meaning, fellowship, sense of belonging.... women do that NOT god <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Silly
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 20 2003, 09:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 20 2003, 09:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Comfort, purpose, love, greater meaning, fellowship, sense of belonging.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can get all those things, except greater meaning because it doesn't exist, outside of God.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct 20 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct 20 2003, 04:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alright, A few things I feel I should address:
First of all, Christianity IS different from any other religion on the face of the planet.
Every other religion says what you must to to get to God, or enlightenment, or happiness, or whatever your goal is. Christianity is the only one that says that God himself took pain and torture upon himself, that God has already done something to get you into heaven, to let you have everlasting life. That's unpreceidented. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with this at all.
To be a Christian you still have to _do_ something. You are still told how to achieve heaven/ get to God etc.
It really is not that different from the other religions you mentioned.
And I would like to add something here guys. People like you and me are perfectly capable of sacrificing your life for someone you love. I remember a story a while back of a grandfather saving his drowning grandchild at the cost of his own life !
I'm sorry but Jesus is not the only man to ever sacrifice.
[QUOTE=FilthyLarry,Oct 21 2003, 12:47 AM] I'm sorry but Jesus is not the only man to ever sacrifice. [/QUOTEg You don't even have to go very far back to find examples, hell, as far as 11.9.2000 should do to get you plenty. Weather the sacrifice was 'good' or 'evil' doesn't really matter, its still people sacrificing themselves for, what is in their minds, a greater good.
[QUOTE=SkulkBait,Oct 21 2003, 02:48 AM] [QUOTE=FilthyLarry,Oct 21 2003, 12:47 AM] I'm sorry but Jesus is not the only man to ever sacrifice. [/QUOTEg You don't even have to go very far back to find examples, hell, as far as 11.9.2000 should do to get you plenty. Weather the sacrifice was 'good' or 'evil' doesn't really matter, its still people sacrificing themselves for, what is in their minds, a greater good. [/QUOTE] You find me a person that would be willing to go through one extremely and hellish way to die to save Hitler, to save Stalin, to save Saddam.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving?
Jesus sacrificed himself for everyone, the most upright man, and the filthiest sinner.
Larry, there is a difference between "Taking yourself all the way to heaven" and asking for it. All other religions have the concept that you work your way to heaven - Christianity is unique in the concept of Grace. You cant get there on your own, and there is absolutely no way you are ever going to deserve it, so you have to ask God/Jesus to do it for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 21 2003, 03:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 21 2003, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You find me a person that would be willing to go through one extremely and hellish way to die to save Hitler, to save Stalin, to save Saddam.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... tough one. Would dying to prove a point, or for a 'greater good' count? Because people have self imolated in protest before. Then there was that one japanese dude, who was a big supporter of kamakazi atacks, who cut his own gut open and sat for several hours before dying. Thats not mentioning anybody who ever underwent serious torture, and finally death, to keep from revealing information that might help their enemy. Jesus could have been a megalomaniac, in a sense , since he believed he was the son of God and would save all humanity by dying in this gruesome fassion. Its certainly possible for a human to do such a thing, as the examples above indicate.
death was not the end for Jesus. After suffering for six hours on the cross, he then suffered millions of eternities of torture and pain in hell, torture worse than death, in just 1 day. Would you go through that for someone who didn't deserve it? Wold you not only take thier punishment, but the punishment of million of others just like him?
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 21 2003, 03:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 21 2003, 03:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Oct 21 2003, 03:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Oct 21 2003, 03:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You find me a person that would be willing to go through one extremely and hellish way to die to save Hitler, to save Stalin, to save Saddam.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... tough one. Would dying to prove a point, or for a 'greater good' count? Because people have self imolated in protest before. Then there was that one japanese dude, who was a big supporter of kamakazi atacks, who cut his own gut open and sat for several hours before dying. Thats not mentioning anybody who ever underwent serious torture, and finally death, to keep from revealing information that might help their enemy. Jesus could have been a megalomaniac, in a sense , since he believed he was the son of God and would save all humanity by dying in this gruesome fassion. Its certainly possible for a human to do such a thing, as the examples above indicate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> These people are still dying for the greater good, for something they see to be deserving. Christ died for something he knew darn well didnt deserve it - so I can see your point also, but I still think its different.
People, just like Jesus, will die for a cause. Rarely is that cause to save the evil people.
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 21 2003, 03:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 21 2003, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> death was not the end for Jesus. After suffering for six hours on the cross, he then suffered millions of eternities of torture and pain in hell, torture worse than death, in just 1 day. Would you go through that for someone who didn't deserve it? Wold you not only take thier punishment, but the punishment of million of others just like him? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, lets say that I wouldn't, and that I couldn't find somebody who would. So lets say then that that is what makes christianity fundamentally different from other religions. That still doesn't nessesarily mean its the right one. If jesus were a megalomaniac (see my last post) and just got portrayed as a god in the book, then it could still be Judeaism thats the right one. Or Hindu.... or any number of choices. The idea that it is differen't then all other religons fails to make it stand out as the 'correct one', mearly an easier one to be saved in. Besides that, jesus had a big advantage in hell. For one he had hope, he knew that he would not have to be there for all eternity.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rarely is that cause to save the evil people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm... I'll have to look into that, I can't think of any examples off hand. If I do manage to find one though, that makes 'Rarely' the key word in that statement. Rarely != unique.
~pokes legion with a stick~ People who do paintings and stuff don't want to achieve immortality though it's often expressed that way; at least not the ones I know. They just want to leave something behind that makes them remembered. I might not be speaking for all of them but that's all I can say from experience <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The difference is though, they don't live forever in reality and get bored; the memory lives on in their place ^^
I still don't see what's so great about heaven, but then again that's probably why hell was invented in religion. If people can't see the draw of their 'reward' they need to be given something bad as an alternative to justify it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Oct 21 2003, 09:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Oct 21 2003, 09:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Oct 21 2003, 03:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Oct 21 2003, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> death was not the end for Jesus. After suffering for six hours on the cross, he then suffered millions of eternities of torture and pain in hell, torture worse than death, in just 1 day. Would you go through that for someone who didn't deserve it? Wold you not only take thier punishment, but the punishment of million of others just like him? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> OK, lets say that I wouldn't, and that I couldn't find somebody who would. So lets say then that that is what makes christianity fundamentally different from other religions. That still doesn't nessesarily mean its the right one. If jesus were a megalomaniac (see my last post) and just got portrayed as a god in the book, then it could still be Judeaism thats the right one. Or Hindu.... or any number of choices. The idea that it is differen't then all other religons fails to make it stand out as the 'correct one', mearly an easier one to be saved in. Besides that, jesus had a big advantage in hell. For one he had hope, he knew that he would not have to be there for all eternity. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Christianuty is fundamentaly different from any other major religion in that, in other religions, you have to do the hard work. you have to meditate for 6 hours a day, you have to make sure your good outwiehgs your bad. in christianity, the hard work has been done for you, it is impossible to get into heaven by meditating or good deeds. nothing you can do can get you into heaven. only a perfect being could become sin and take the punishment so we can be fairly allowed to enter. all you have to do is accept that you cannot do anything, you dont need to do anything apart from believe. that is why it is different
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 21 2003, 04:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 21 2003, 04:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ~pokes legion with a stick~ People who do paintings and stuff don't want to achieve immortality though it's often expressed that way; at least not the ones I know. They just want to leave something behind that makes them remembered. I might not be speaking for all of them but that's all I can say from experience <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The difference is though, they don't live forever in reality and get bored; the memory lives on in their place ^^
I still don't see what's so great about heaven, but then again that's probably why hell was invented in religion. If people can't see the draw of their 'reward' they need to be given something bad as an alternative to justify it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly. People want to be remembered, so they leave things behind. Even the anglo-saxoins, who didn't believe in a religion did that too.
All I am saying, is that people have a fundamental need to be more than they are, Christianity fits that perfectly, and makes the most sense doing so of any other faith on the face of the planet.
You are right about being able to find fulfillment in other things, but other things are not permanant, they are temporal, and they pass away. God offers fulfillment in just as many ways, but the end product of what he offers lasts forever.
Comments
God isnt making you suffer. Why would he be interested in you? you have never done anything for him, you curse him, you hate his guts (if he has any) Why should he take your pain away? tell me that. Why should he do anything for you? he doesnt need you.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I do nothing but good for the rest of my life and (if there is a heaven) still go to hell, then thats not a God I want to worship. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good by whose standards? yours? your teacher's? or Gods?
Before the accident, I was a christian. My parents raised me to do good. I never did anything wrong in my eyes...
but I guess my eyes aren't gods eyes. Hell, I never asked for anything, I had such a good life until the accident, then it went all down hill...
Im sorry, but in my mind hardcore christians are the largest hypocrits ever. They think that just because they beleive something, that makes them right, and since they are right, everybody else is wrong and then they force their beleifs on anybody else who doesn't hold the same view as them.
end my two cents.
As far as your posts have shown you don't seem to have any patience to lose... heck you give off this aura that you're going through that difficult set of teen years where you're old enough to have a decent mass of knowledge growing but you're too young to realise you've still got a lot to learn. We've all been there, we've all thought we knew everything and that the people who argued otherwise were close-minded fools but it'll pass... and you'll learn. I'm not talking about religion now; I'm talking about attitude; I don't care what religion you follow if any but if you're going to bark and scream like you know better don't expect me to take you seriously. If you did philosophy you should be well acquainted with the quote "The only thing I truly know is that I know nothing" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, if it is heavy christian stuff, why did i find it in a philosophy book which treates all concepts of God as equal, and why, when i said this to my philosophy teacher, who is definitely not christian, why did she agree with me?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because she had the space of a conversation to really look at the context of your exact word usage instead of having it shoved in her face every day you decide to grace her with your presence... even if it's got nothing to do with what you're talking about?
The statement itself isn't too far off the mark like I've been saying and you've been ignoring; you just worded it wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So far, you are the only person who has said anything much about it (ie thats fricking annoying) while 2 athiests (my A level philoposhy teachers) have said "thats a good point"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact I remember seeing someone actually post in one of the threads here where you arguing saying your sig was annoying kinda makes me think otherwise... The fact you seem adept at missing what people say half the time because you're caught up in some zealot whirlwind doesn't convince me either -.-
Because you somehow missed the point the first time I'll try again; Agnostics don't know. <b>They aren't trying to convince anyone of their point of view because they do not have one as such.</b> Most agnostic stuff is just 'why?' Christian stuff is 'GOD IS REAL!!!' and athiest stuff is 'HE IS NOT!!!'
Seeing the difference yet? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
They might 'live without god' but they're open to it and asking you why they should buy your version of the book instead of the athiest one and there you are squealing back at him he has to prove his position o.O
~gives burr a cookie~ sorry to hear life's taken such nasty turns on you =/
Buddhism, you do good in this life, and in the next life you will be better. That's the one reason why I think Buddhism > any BIG super-organized religion. Buddhism really has no Clergy, no priests, no clerics, no "orders". Sure, there are Buddhist Monks who contemplate but they do not preach, they do not try to convert. They just meditate trying to reach the higher plane of existence.
The three things that really killed any chance of me having faith happened fairly young. The first thing was my Father leaving my mother. Now, I will admit that my Mother isn't a very strict Christian but she still went to Church and the whole nine yards, but my Father left her when I was two years old. The second thing that happened was my best friend (and now girlfriend) had cancer when she was...5 I believe. She was pure, and clean and good and everything that deserves to live in this world, but did God deem it fit for her not to need to suffer? and suffer she did, chemo, spinal taps, drugs that might have made her infertile. Any God that would put someone so good through that doesn't deserve followers. and the third and final thing is my little sister. She died when I was 9 and she was 3. Three years old, and she died of a one-in-a-two-or-three-million disease. Three years old, and she was the only reason I was happy. However much I said I didn't like her, she was the light of my life and when she died I cursed God, and when a Christian came up to my mother at the funeral and said, "God wanted to hold Emily tight, so he took her into his embrace." I felt the first flickerings of homicidal rage. I was half-tempted to respond, "What? God didn't think it fit that we get to have her first? He is undying, but we are. Didn't we deserve to see her live?" That's when I lost my faith, and if I were to believe in Him again, it would take my Father coming back into my life, my little sister back alive, aged the 9 years she's been dead and matured that much, and my girlfriend not being phobic of needles, not having to worry about whether she'll have to adopt instead of having her own child, and her not being afraid of her lower spine being touched.
its time to get back to reality. i realise i have probably made more than a few people more than slightly annoyed, and, for that, I apologise. The original question was "What would it take to make you believe?" For me, it took an easter service. I would love to say that I haven't looked back, but I do all the time. All christians have doubts about thier faith at some time or another. I will change my sig, however, as it appears to be generating more bad than good. I may be going through one of those typical Teenage "I am always right", in fact, i probably am. oh well
you're nice really, I just got miffed when you started taking it all a bit too seriously.
I know you were getting a bit angry with me too though and I know how it feels. In religious arguements people on all sides start to suffer from the frustration effect any normal person gets when talking to a less-than-intelligent person; you can see the logic of your own arguements and viewpoint perfectly, it all makes sense to you and anyone who looks at it yet time and time again the silly person somehow misses it completely and you're pretty much still where you started!
In the case of the religion-based stuff it's luckily nothing to do with being stupid and almost entirely due to the fact everyone is different with their own view of how things are and they tend to entrench themselves in their positions once the arguement raises it's head. After that happens nobody is going nowhere lol <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
~gives boggle a cookie~
What happened at easter anyways, if you don't mind my whiskers twitching =o
*pokes at boggle with a copy of red dwarf season 1 episode 4*, *chuckles*
How I see it is that there is an almost infinitesimal chance that the particular god you have chosen exists, an almost infinitesimal chance he cares about you should he exist and some small chance that should he exist and care anything about us puny little humans that he will send people to heaven, and some tiny chance that he agrees with what you think is nice.
I can easily imagine a selfish god that want's to watch us like an action movie and want's us to cause as much havoc as we possibly can. You are making assumption on assumption on assumption. I find it very arrogant to presume you know the nature and intent of god should he exist. I gamble as much in believing in god in one form or another as I do in not believing in god since there is no reason for me to think he will agree with me on what's naughty and nice or that he shares any nice pipe dreams I may have of living forever in a place where everything is as nice as it can possibly be for me.
I say this because I am not christian and I am not convinced that any religion has any bearing on reality, therefor I gamble as much either way. So I might as well have fun while I am alive.
I suspect that you enjoy christianity no matter if it is just a mind game you are playing on yourself or not. If this is correct then you are in fact living it up, just like me.
Agnosticism and atheism differs in that atheists state their disbelief in any existing belief system, where as agnosticists merely doubt. Stating your disbelief in something is NOT refusing it entirely, it is saying that you think it is so improbable that you do not merely doubt it but will reject it out of hand.
Applied to a lottery, being a christian is like saying you irrationally believe nr. 12519841798745287352375987451093247 is the winning number, being an agnosticist is saying you doubt this is so but are unsure of themselves, an atheist openly says that they do not believe this is the winning number nothing more. Fair analogy or not, you be the judge, but saying you do not believe that nr 12519841798745287352375987451093247 will not be the winning number in a lottery is hardly saying that _it cannot happen_ now is it?
I think organized religion is the pinacle of cowardize. You don't have to think for yourself, you just inherit the faith of those before you, and you believe in god because you wan't some reward in the end. Call me crazy but if I was god I would punish people trying suck up to me and beging and pleading like cowards allthough I have shown my lack of interest in them with my complete absence.
I do not have any idea what god might be if 'it' exists so I do not expect saying that "god is a pussfilled pile of congealed monkey vomit" will be any less of a gamble then saying "oh dear lord, who governs us small and sinful lambs who are your followers I beg forgiveness for anything I may have inadvertenly done to offend you etc...".
I find a god that creates a Universe and populates it with tiny and in comparision inanely stupid creatures and then expects those creatures to follow some irrational beliefs that 'it' may have introduced to some of the primitive creatures in early times to be a somewhat insane god and one I find particularilly improbable. Especially since god created the rules of said hypothetical Universe and created the inhabitants of said Universe. Unless those creatures are endowed with some 'special juice' some free will not of this Universe then they have no free will, it is just a big game of chance(if god doesn't interfere it is 'just a bunch of chemical reactions') that the creatures themselves are powerless to predict. If said 'special juice' is applied to the mix, it is in the end controlled by god since he created it and applied it. Why does this make me think of little children brakeing their mechano since it didn't turn out as expected?
Such a god would quite frankly disgust me, why would I lick his feet in the hopes of some sort of better life? That is pure cowardice. I do not expect god, should it exists, to be an inconsiderate **** so I don't take christianity very seriously.
I am not an amoral person, it is very simple to justify why you should not go on a killing spree with an axe in your local shoping mall without irrational beliefs. I am very dependent on other people and so are all of us. Society brings me happiness, I cannot make things like math literature, snapple, half-life 2 or kapten chrunchy breakfast cereal, I am dependant on others to do this for me and society depends on people like me and everyone else to do what they are good at, or at least what they reasonable can do to help society along. So obviously if people take an axe to the local mall and kill some people that's not a good thing for yourself or society, ergo I don't take an axe and kill a bunch of people in the local mall. As if this alone wasn't enough of a justification society has deviced a way of protecting itself by introducing punishment for those who disrupt it. It would not make me very happy to spend a long time in a small room without lack of freedom to do the things I like most, that's a very compelling reason for me not to go on a random killing spree.
Also, killing people would make me physically feel bad, because survival depends on cooperation, and somewhat likely natural-selection has caused those that are cooperative or those adverse to killing each others to survive better and spread.
Religion has on the other hand often been the justification for murder, a way to push those who are hesitant over the edge against their instinct not to. It has been used as a justification in wars and ritual suicides and satanistic killings of virgins and in burning black people(pressumably they where envious of their skins richness in melanine but what do I know <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and killing the jewish people and all sorts of bizarre and grusome things most find quite unthinkable. This of course has nothing to do with you or most religions in themselves(I say most because there are exceptions, like nazism), I'm just saying irrational beliefs are have been quite exploitable by power crazed raving mad lunatics in past times. There is of course 'evil'(things most people agree are bad) without the use of religion, just that I don't believe there would have been nearly this much of it.
Marine01 wasnt talking about pascal's wager. He was saying that if you do not know, and you have no belief either way, why dont you live as if there was a God, instead of living as if there isnt. its not a saftey net because you do not believe in God, it is just a different way of life. If you live as if there was no God, you might as well be an athiest.
I suppose the major question is, being an agnostic, if i could convince you that God does exist, would it change your life in any way?
First of all, Christianity IS different from any other religion on the face of the planet.
Every other religion says what you must to to get to God, or enlightenment, or happiness, or whatever your goal is. Christianity is the only one that says that God himself took pain and torture upon himself, that God has already done something to get you into heaven, to let you have everlasting life. That's unpreceidented.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Applied to a lottery, being a christian is like saying you irrationally believe nr. 12519841798745287352375987451093247 is the winning number, being an agnosticist is saying you doubt this is so but are unsure of themselves, an atheist openly says that they do not believe this is the winning number nothing more. Fair analogy or not, you be the judge, but saying you do not believe that nr 12519841798745287352375987451093247 will not be the winning number in a lottery is hardly saying that _it cannot happen_ now is it?
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Here's a 5 minute run-down of why I think that Christianity really is the only really rational religion.
Buddhism: A nice, doop outlook, but it's a worldview, not a religion. Eliminate desire through purifying your mind, eliminating suffering. It's nice, but it's not a religion, not a faith, and provides no evidence to the fact that it's anything more than one man's musings on how to overcome the lows in the human condition.
Islam: Claims that Allah spoke through earlyer incorrect prophets, provides little proof to Muhammed's divinity or inspiration, and states that people are sinful, yet never provides an explanation as to how us sinful people are allowed to enter heaven.
Judaism: Has all the credibility in the world, but fulfilled by Christ.
And that's the big three right there.
Saying that Pascal's wager is wrong because there is more than one religion is like saying that I shouldn't have ice cream because there are different flavors. However, unlike personal preference in flavors of ice cream, there is a definate absolute truth. Saying there is none asserts that there is an absolute truth, and counters it's own argument. One of these worldviews is right, and IMO, the only real choice is between accepting Christ as Lord or denying his divinity, cursing his name, and casting his gift aside.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I can easily imagine a selfish god that want's to watch us like an action movie and want's us to cause as much havoc as we possibly can. You are making assumption on assumption on assumption. I find it very arrogant to presume you know the nature and intent of god should he exist. I gamble as much in believing in god in one form or another as I do in not believing in god since there is no reason for me to think he will agree with me on what's naughty and nice or that he shares any nice pipe dreams I may have of living forever in a place where everything is as nice as it can possibly be for me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How can we know the nature of God? Because he has given us 66 books that outline his plan to save humanity since the fall of man, because he tells us what he himself is like, and he gives us ample evidence to make an educated inference on what his motives are. But his motives are not important, merely his actions, merely what He has said He has already done, and wether we choose to accept that or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think organized religion is the pinacle of cowardize. You don't have to think for yourself, you just inherit the faith of those before you, and you believe in god because you wan't some reward in the end. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Explain to me how being encoraged to open the bible, read and interpret for yourself, learn to weild this incredible truth that has been given to us with great dexterity, and how accepting the truth is not thinking for yourself? Explain to me how withstanding beatings and painful death for one's beliefs is cowardice?
We want eternal life, but so does everyone who ever took pen to paper, paint to canvas, or chisel to stone and tried to make their own splash in this little pond here. You feel like a big man because you don't want to live forever? Because you have circumvented basic human needs and desires, you feel like you're better than thousands of generations of Monets, Beethovens, and Shakespeares?
The only difference between living on through Christ and living on through our own works is that Christ told us jsut where he came from, just where we were going, and exactly what the alternative was. Commiting yourself entirely to other means of trying to live forever is like casting your seeds to the wind.
Also, this is going from the Christian idea of God (he created everything), as opposed to a God that just happens to be here, is very powerful and is taking care of things.
That's about it as plainly as I can put it, I guess.
You say that Christianity is "rational", but is it really? Some guy died on the cross a VERY long time ago for my sins, there's a God that just sorta... "existed" and created everything, poof, just like that. He's supposed to be all-powerful, all-omnipotent, etc. etc... and a being like this is just THERE? I'm just supposed to accept this? He's not logical. It's the unanswerable question; things have to come from somewhere or something, or so we believe, except that in Christianity, God just IS. Rational? I don't think so.
As for books, there's no proof that they're infallible. The Bible, the Koran, any of those books; you can't PROVE that they were written by the hand of God himself, or by a human influenced by God. Not to mention how many different versions of each book there are.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only difference between living on through Christ and living on through our own works is that Christ told us jsut where he came from, just where we were going, and exactly what the alternative was. Commiting yourself entirely to other means of trying to live forever is like casting your seeds to the wind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sometimes, the wind will take you to newer, better places.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide.
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The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Explain to me
(Sorry if Double-Post, forums giving me some issues)
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The culture of man has changed, but the attitude of man, his basic needs and wants, are the same today as they were hundreds of years ago. Religion will be here for a very long time, certain sects and faiths may die out, but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but people will always need something science can't provide. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Explain to me <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comfort, purpose, love, greater meaning, fellowship, sense of belonging....
Getting the picture? Science tells how things are. Christ says not only how things are, but how things should be, what you can do to make that happen.
You can get all those things, except greater meaning because it doesn't exist, outside of God.
First of all, Christianity IS different from any other religion on the face of the planet.
Every other religion says what you must to to get to God, or enlightenment, or happiness, or whatever your goal is. Christianity is the only one that says that God himself took pain and torture upon himself, that God has already done something to get you into heaven, to let you have everlasting life. That's unpreceidented. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with this at all.
To be a Christian you still have to _do_ something. You are still told how to achieve heaven/ get to God etc.
It really is not that different from the other religions you mentioned.
And I would like to add something here guys. People like you and me are perfectly capable of sacrificing your life for someone you love. I remember a story a while back of a grandfather saving his drowning grandchild at the cost of his own life !
I'm sorry but Jesus is not the only man to ever sacrifice.
You don't even have to go very far back to find examples, hell, as far as 11.9.2000 should do to get you plenty. Weather the sacrifice was 'good' or 'evil' doesn't really matter, its still people sacrificing themselves for, what is in their minds, a greater good.
You don't even have to go very far back to find examples, hell, as far as 11.9.2000 should do to get you plenty. Weather the sacrifice was 'good' or 'evil' doesn't really matter, its still people sacrificing themselves for, what is in their minds, a greater good. [/QUOTE]
You find me a person that would be willing to go through one extremely and hellish way to die to save Hitler, to save Stalin, to save Saddam.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving?
Jesus sacrificed himself for everyone, the most upright man, and the filthiest sinner.
Larry, there is a difference between "Taking yourself all the way to heaven" and asking for it. All other religions have the concept that you work your way to heaven - Christianity is unique in the concept of Grace. You cant get there on your own, and there is absolutely no way you are ever going to deserve it, so you have to ask God/Jesus to do it for you.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving?
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Hmm... tough one. Would dying to prove a point, or for a 'greater good' count? Because people have self imolated in protest before. Then there was that one japanese dude, who was a big supporter of kamakazi atacks, who cut his own gut open and sat for several hours before dying. Thats not mentioning anybody who ever underwent serious torture, and finally death, to keep from revealing information that might help their enemy. Jesus could have been a megalomaniac, in a sense , since he believed he was the son of God and would save all humanity by dying in this gruesome fassion. Its certainly possible for a human to do such a thing, as the examples above indicate.
For a good man, some may be willing to die, but who will die for the completely undeserving?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... tough one. Would dying to prove a point, or for a 'greater good' count? Because people have self imolated in protest before. Then there was that one japanese dude, who was a big supporter of kamakazi atacks, who cut his own gut open and sat for several hours before dying. Thats not mentioning anybody who ever underwent serious torture, and finally death, to keep from revealing information that might help their enemy. Jesus could have been a megalomaniac, in a sense , since he believed he was the son of God and would save all humanity by dying in this gruesome fassion. Its certainly possible for a human to do such a thing, as the examples above indicate. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
These people are still dying for the greater good, for something they see to be deserving. Christ died for something he knew darn well didnt deserve it - so I can see your point also, but I still think its different.
People, just like Jesus, will die for a cause. Rarely is that cause to save the evil people.
OK, lets say that I wouldn't, and that I couldn't find somebody who would. So lets say then that that is what makes christianity fundamentally different from other religions. That still doesn't nessesarily mean its the right one. If jesus were a megalomaniac (see my last post) and just got portrayed as a god in the book, then it could still be Judeaism thats the right one. Or Hindu.... or any number of choices. The idea that it is differen't then all other religons fails to make it stand out as the 'correct one', mearly an easier one to be saved in. Besides that, jesus had a big advantage in hell. For one he had hope, he knew that he would not have to be there for all eternity.
EDIT: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Rarely is that cause to save the evil people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmm... I'll have to look into that, I can't think of any examples off hand. If I do manage to find one though, that makes 'Rarely' the key word in that statement. Rarely != unique.
People who do paintings and stuff don't want to achieve immortality though it's often expressed that way; at least not the ones I know. They just want to leave something behind that makes them remembered. I might not be speaking for all of them but that's all I can say from experience <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The difference is though, they don't live forever in reality and get bored; the memory lives on in their place ^^
I still don't see what's so great about heaven, but then again that's probably why hell was invented in religion. If people can't see the draw of their 'reward' they need to be given something bad as an alternative to justify it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
OK, lets say that I wouldn't, and that I couldn't find somebody who would. So lets say then that that is what makes christianity fundamentally different from other religions. That still doesn't nessesarily mean its the right one. If jesus were a megalomaniac (see my last post) and just got portrayed as a god in the book, then it could still be Judeaism thats the right one. Or Hindu.... or any number of choices. The idea that it is differen't then all other religons fails to make it stand out as the 'correct one', mearly an easier one to be saved in. Besides that, jesus had a big advantage in hell. For one he had hope, he knew that he would not have to be there for all eternity.
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Christianuty is fundamentaly different from any other major religion in that, in other religions, you have to do the hard work. you have to meditate for 6 hours a day, you have to make sure your good outwiehgs your bad. in christianity, the hard work has been done for you, it is impossible to get into heaven by meditating or good deeds. nothing you can do can get you into heaven. only a perfect being could become sin and take the punishment so we can be fairly allowed to enter. all you have to do is accept that you cannot do anything, you dont need to do anything apart from believe. that is why it is different
People who do paintings and stuff don't want to achieve immortality though it's often expressed that way; at least not the ones I know. They just want to leave something behind that makes them remembered. I might not be speaking for all of them but that's all I can say from experience <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The difference is though, they don't live forever in reality and get bored; the memory lives on in their place ^^
I still don't see what's so great about heaven, but then again that's probably why hell was invented in religion. If people can't see the draw of their 'reward' they need to be given something bad as an alternative to justify it <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. People want to be remembered, so they leave things behind. Even the anglo-saxoins, who didn't believe in a religion did that too.
All I am saying, is that people have a fundamental need to be more than they are, Christianity fits that perfectly, and makes the most sense doing so of any other faith on the face of the planet.
You are right about being able to find fulfillment in other things, but other things are not permanant, they are temporal, and they pass away. God offers fulfillment in just as many ways, but the end product of what he offers lasts forever.