<!--QuoteBegin---_Phoenix_-+Jul 28 2003, 01:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-_Phoenix_- @ Jul 28 2003, 01:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> /me shrugs. I did. Obviously was a good idea <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to rain on your parade...but I've heard this suggested <i>almost</i> as many times as the 'ub4r r41Lgunz0rz' <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I, myself pondered in the days of yore-I'm sure we all did. It's just a very <i><b>logical</b></i> step in the right direction - not a revelation. I'm nearly positive it was planned from the beginning anyhow - would someome as professional as Flayra include a non-functional minimap? Didn't think so. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again-I don't mean to slam you in any way. Sorry for how harsh that might have sounded, but it's the gospel truth. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Talesin+Jul 28 2003, 05:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Jul 28 2003, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and AFAIK it's not determined if the togglable full-screen minimap will still be there in the final release. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> /me cries <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Jul 28 2003, 09:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jul 28 2003, 09:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's no reason marines should be ignorant of the situation with their own units and buildings around the map. Marines should have the knowledge advantage; after all, they're on manmade ships with an extensive command network covering the entire area. Why shouldn't the network be able to uplink some information to the Marine HUDs? This will be a godsend in pub servers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, the base belongs to the aliens. They've made it their home. The marines are coming to take the ship back, on orders so while they've seen maps, they haven't lived there like the aliens. Aliens also have hivesight so THEY should be at an information advantage.
It would actually add more to the game if the fullscale map wasn't in the game. It would be better if they put it in the manual (they obviously did some work on it so it's a shame to not put it in in the first place)
I would rather see the fullscale map in because one of my biggest problems with NS was the confusing dark maps, I used to run around in circles and never knew where to go, especially as marine.
Wow - Man when 2.0 comes out i am going to be spamming SO MANY SMILEYS (bind l "say <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Great work! ! 1 1 1 oneoneoneone 2 @ 222 @ 1111 one one 11 !!! ! ! ! ! !
there we go <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hope the full map isn't in there in anything like a full glory. Comms have a hard enough time with grunts who want to decide where they are needed (result: entire team going to one room to protect some minor structure). If the full map is in there, then it should ONLY show the marine nearby structures. It's great to have the map outline there to guide the marine to his waypoints. But to have all the other stuff on there is going to be very very distracting with public servers and newbies.
Not to bring up the vets/playtesters v. public thing again, but this is DEFINATELY something to consider. Experienced players follow the orders of the comm. Experienced players know the maps. More inexperienced players will see this map and it will lead them all over the place, trying to out-comm the comm.
But then, maybe 2.0 includes a b*slap option for comms. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and AFAIK it's not determined if the togglable full-screen minimap will still be there in the final release. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Something this awesome has to make it to the final release. It will help all the NSPlayers out there to learn the maps.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will help all the NSPlayers out there to learn the maps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learning the maps is one thing: getting a mini-comm view is an entirely new wrinkle. Marines shouldn't be deciding where they go by scanning over the whole map for places to be. They should be acting as squads under explict or implicit comm orders.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines shouldn't be deciding where they go by scanning over the whole map for places to be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. It's a team game. In my experience, the best commanders take a fairly hands off approach, directing the strategic attack while leaving much of the tactical details to a field comm (or vice versa). Yes, I imagine there will be people who use the map to run around and rambo, however, they'd rambo anyways. If you didn't give them the map, instead of running to where all the other marine blips are, they'd run to where all the other marine blips were last time they were alive...
Really, on decent servers this is rarely a problem. In fact, more often the aliens are the ones really hurting (in my experience) for teamwork, and have skulks zipping all around the map rather than a few good lerks concentrated on bringing down the jetpack rush, for example.
I see this as an opportunity to expand the way in which NS is played... Plus, it really helps coordinate flanking maneuvers, something really lacking in pub play, and that'd make the early game much more exciting.
<!--QuoteBegin--Apos+Jul 28 2003, 11:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Jul 28 2003, 11:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It will help all the NSPlayers out there to learn the maps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learning the maps is one thing: getting a mini-comm view is an entirely new wrinkle. Marines shouldn't be deciding where they go by scanning over the whole map for places to be. They should be acting as squads under explict or implicit comm orders. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes and we all know the awesome teamwork that goes on in pubs right now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe the map shouldnt show all the structures and etc... but just having a big overview like that would help alot. Lack of teamwork isnt a problem of the features in the game, its a problem of the people playing it.
In pub games, most comms just aren't good enough to give specific orders to everyone on the team. When people don't know what to do, they load up on ammo and run out of the base looking for aliens, and very rarely get anything at all accomplished for the team unless they manage to kill the gorge. However, now they can find their teammates and go towards them, helping marines to work as a group and helping the less experienced players keep track of what's going on and where they should be.
I can't emphasize enough just how much I love the idea of this map for pub games. It will drastically cut down on the number of complete rambos, and instead people who don't have any orders from the comm can easily find other marines and help out the team instead of going to get themselves killed. It doesn't give away alien positions across the map or anything; all it does is take some of the burden of trying to keep the marines together off of the commander. Sure, in clan matches it works fine for the comm to keep tabs on everything and tell their marines about it; in pub games that very rarely happens. I've never been terribly fond of playing marines on pub games because it always degenerates into half the team ramboing for lack of orders. Plleeaaassseee put this map in 2.0 Final.
I do think, though, that there should be a server option to disable the big map if the admin wants to.
By the way, I don't particularly like the idea of putting MT on this map. If it were to still work at unlimited range, it would let you pinpoint where every alien in the game is with complete accuracy(99% of marine players can't do that with the current system). There would be nowhere to hide for the gorge, much moreso than now. If the range was limited to a couple rooms or it only showed a lit up room on the map or something, it would be a marine nerf that just isn't necessary unless the balance has really swayed in the last couple of builds. Putting it exclusively on the big map would also cause marines to constantly turn it on and off, and that would considerably detract from the general feel of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe the map shouldnt show all the structures and etc... but just having a big overview like that would help alot.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I wasn't being clear, but this is EXACTLY what I meant: map overview to find your way around/to waypoints. But not an extensive layout of ENEMY structures and ENEMY movements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, now they can find their teammates and go towards them, helping marines to work as a group and helping the less experienced players keep track of what's going on and where they should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This function would more than admirably be fulfilled by a decent upper corner mini-map- it would allow people to follow others around to nearby stuff without getting lost, but not running halfway across the map from your post because you see a skulk or a marine died over there.
I agree on the MT. I do like the idea of a nearby motion tracking that simply shows on the minimap if there is motion in nearby ROOMS (maybe more like hivesight for the full map: motion tracking only shows aliens in nearby rooms if there is a marine close enough to them?): rather than blue circles (though... I love using them). We don't want to nerf the marines tho, and I'm already scared that playing marines will be too hard....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm already scared that playing marines will be too hard....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not masochistic enough for the TSA. Real marines use knives!
<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Jul 28 2003, 05:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Jul 28 2003, 05:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->make that full view toggle for the commander only.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seconded. This just makes so much more sense... Eye candy is nice, but it needs to be put in the right place...
I think the idea of having to pay for it could work if it helps the marines too much, it really needs to be tested though. Maybe just for tournament mode only ?
I think it will be great to be able to see where your team mates are, it makes to Comm's job a bit easier. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Having the motion tracking now appear on the minimap would reduce the number of dimensions of awareness that a marine has. With the current HUD setup, a savvy marine can tell precisely <i>in what room</i>, in whatever <i>part of said room</i> an alien is currently haunting. Putting it on the minimap would take away the height dimension, adding a bit more challenge to the at-present wallhack-like system. The marine would be able to know relatively what part of a room a...skulk is in, but would not be able to pinpoint it as before.
Another alternative is to completely rip off the Aliens motion tracker - pulses every second or so; much like sonar. If it 'pinged' every few seconds, picking up any alien movement in an expanding circle around the marine, then it it would add yet more randomness to the experience, and therefore more atmosphere. The obvious balance would be to make this device only 'ping' every few seconds.
A third alternative is maybe a recolor of an area that an alien is hiding in. Under this system, maybe a room could change from the default blue to red when an alien is detected in that room. This would add even more randomness-the marine would know <i>something</i> is in the room, but would be completely blind as to <i>where</i>
Oops...perhaps this isn't the correct forum...forgive my zeal <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Apos+Jul 28 2003, 08:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Jul 28 2003, 08:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe I wasn't being clear, but this is EXACTLY what I meant: map overview to find your way around/to waypoints. But not an extensive layout of ENEMY structures and ENEMY movements. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Unless I misinterpreted something, it's pretty clear to me that it doesn't do that. The only alien structures shown are the two that are within sight of the marine in the hive location. Whether or not other players can see that too isn't known, and whether or not actual aliens can be seen on that map if they're in view isn't known either. It's obvious that it doesn't show all enemy activities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This function would more than admirably be fulfilled by a decent upper corner mini-map- it would allow people to follow others around to nearby stuff without getting lost, but not running halfway across the map from your post because you see a skulk or a marine died over there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, a couple things:
a.) It's hard to get lost following a group of marines around as it is. The new minimap would still be great if it were size restricted, but it wouldn't really help that much.
b.) The point is that with the map, if you aren't there right as the marine group was leaving, you can still find them and catch up with them later if you don't have any specific orders from the comm. What if you don't have the map, get killed, your comm doesn't have any orders for you, and the last marines to leave the base left a minute ago? If they're out setting up a minibase at a res node or hive location or whatever, you could see that on the map and would be able to catch up with them to help. With a small minimap you'd still have no idea where they were, and the average player would resort to ramboing. The big map will serve as an organizational aid for marines; it allows them to stick together, as they were designed to do, at all times. There will always be newbies who disregard a comm's order for their own ideas, but frankly I don't really think a map will increase that behavior.
c.) The fact is that this map doesn't give marines any more knowledge or power than they had before. Nothing is shown that the commander wouldn't be able to simply tell you if you asked him, and some things only the commander can see(scanner sweeps). What it does is not force them to tell every little detail for marines to know what's going on; it makes the commander's job easier.
I know the idea of being able to see a real map offends some of you very deeply. I've already explained why I feel it fits into the story, and the point I'm trying to make here is that it's not really overpowered at all. It allows individual marines to go and help out their comrades without hearing specifically from the commander where they are. I would be perfectly happy if the map didn't indicate when something is under attack unless a marine is there. Hell, it would only be a minor annoyance to me if structures didn't show at all; what's really important is the ability to see fellow marines anywhere across the map. The big map helps pub marines to work together without relying completely on a commander's communication skills; what's wrong with that? It does not bring any new information to the picture, only organizes what you can find out from your teammates. It also does not in any way encourage a marine to ditch their posts; if the commander doesn't want anyone going to save a node he can say so.
It is a simple convenience that would make the marine team a LOT more fun to play and help NS's community grow by making the game more newbie-friendly. Personally a map like that would increase my enjoyment of pub marine games tenfold, and I know I'm not alone there. Please take the "average" player into consideration before you try to get rid of this map because it doesn't sit well with your preconceived notion of marine comm dependence.
I'm behind Zek 100% on this one. The most frustrating thing about marines has always been bad situational awareness under a bad comm. Even with good comm I've felt that my situational awareness is lower than it should be considering I'm part of a futuristic group of soldiers in hostile territory. So yay for adding the new minimap to final 2.0.
I've thought about it some more, and I strongly feel these additions should be made to the big mini map:
- MT is exclusive the mini maps, and it shows the aliens location whenver the alien moves. It does not tell what type of alien they are, however, it probably will still be obvious as to what type of alien it is by gauging the speed of the alien. Oh well. This is way better than the current MT as it doesn't obscure your view when looking at aliens in the middle of a fight, plus it doesn't tell you <b>exactly</b> where the alien is. It would only be 2D, a major disadvantage. You wouldn't really be able to keep up your mini-map as you walk into an alien infested room, therefore making MT useless in combat situations, allowing alien abushes to occur quite easily. It becomes a strategic advantage of whether or not to use MT; when you use it, you can see all, however, you can't fight with a big **** map covering your eyes. Still, the small mini map would show the alien's locale meaning MT wouldn't just be for the average rambo marine.
- MT is limited to a range of roughly a seige cannon around the marine, so the marine cannot see everything. It would help, but the marine must still rely on the comm for big decisions.
- You can only see other marines that are <b>in your squad</b> on the mini map. This way, commander-marine interaction remains. If the comm puts you in a group, and then you die, when you respawn, you will know where to meet up with your buddies rather than wait for another order from your comm.
- Marine structures are always visible on your large mini-map. However, they cannot see aliens for you with the exception of the observatory.
Yeah, does anyone else think these are good ideas? ^^
It's the often stated NS manifesto: "be more newbie friendly." This is a logical, critical step in that direction.
I have seen new players get so frustrated being lost that they simply quit. A map will go a long way towards fixing that.
I also believe this WILL help the most overloaded player in the game, and we all know who that is. Yes, Marines are subordinate to to the Comm, but the current workload balance is totally out of whack. This will help fix the "why are there no good comms?" problem. Currently, you have to be a multitasking zen master to comm unless your rines know the map by heart.
I really don't see any major downsides to a good map, and plenty of upsides.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT is exclusive the mini maps<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has already been discussed to death and I doubt we can give Flayra any new opinions, at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can only see other marines that are in your squad on the mini map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, however, is really cool, for all the reasons you listed. Makes some sense too, tie the little marines to their squadmates' huds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT is limited to a range of roughly a seige cannon around the marine, so the marine cannot see everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't see the logic or use behind this... If aliens chose not to use sensories to hide their movements, they should be visible to everyone, all the time. It's a tradeoff. Nor is this really that broken... I doubt marines will run halfway across the map because of a blip on motion tracking, however, it does make things more interesting when you're on res tower defense and everyone else is off slagging skulks.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> *Me hopes that marine structures on the minimap flash red or something when they are under attack* <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Not to rain on your parade...but I've heard this suggested <i>almost</i> as many times as the 'ub4r r41Lgunz0rz' <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I, myself pondered in the days of yore-I'm sure we all did. It's just a very <i><b>logical</b></i> step in the right direction - not a revelation. I'm nearly positive it was planned from the beginning anyhow - would someome as professional as Flayra include a non-functional minimap? Didn't think so. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Again-I don't mean to slam you in any way. Sorry for how harsh that might have sounded, but it's the gospel truth. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> /me cries <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
if it does will there be an option for the old map in there?
/me worries for everyones fps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, the base belongs to the aliens. They've made it their home. The marines are coming to take the ship back, on orders so while they've seen maps, they haven't lived there like the aliens. Aliens also have hivesight so THEY should be at an information advantage.
It would be better if they put it in the manual (they obviously did some work on it so it's a shame to not put it in in the first place)
I would rather see the fullscale map in because one of my biggest problems with NS was the confusing dark maps, I used to run around in circles and never knew where to go, especially as marine.
Great work! ! 1 1 1 oneoneoneone 2 @ 222 @ 1111 one one 11 !!! ! ! ! ! !
one
there we go <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not to bring up the vets/playtesters v. public thing again, but this is DEFINATELY something to consider. Experienced players follow the orders of the comm. Experienced players know the maps. More inexperienced players will see this map and it will lead them all over the place, trying to out-comm the comm.
But then, maybe 2.0 includes a b*slap option for comms. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Something this awesome has to make it to the final release. It will help all the NSPlayers out there to learn the maps.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learning the maps is one thing: getting a mini-comm view is an entirely new wrinkle. Marines shouldn't be deciding where they go by scanning over the whole map for places to be. They should be acting as squads under explict or implicit comm orders.
I disagree. It's a team game. In my experience, the best commanders take a fairly hands off approach, directing the strategic attack while leaving much of the tactical details to a field comm (or vice versa). Yes, I imagine there will be people who use the map to run around and rambo, however, they'd rambo anyways. If you didn't give them the map, instead of running to where all the other marine blips are, they'd run to where all the other marine blips were last time they were alive...
Really, on decent servers this is rarely a problem. In fact, more often the aliens are the ones really hurting (in my experience) for teamwork, and have skulks zipping all around the map rather than a few good lerks concentrated on bringing down the jetpack rush, for example.
I see this as an opportunity to expand the way in which NS is played... Plus, it really helps coordinate flanking maneuvers, something really lacking in pub play, and that'd make the early game much more exciting.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learning the maps is one thing: getting a mini-comm view is an entirely new wrinkle. Marines shouldn't be deciding where they go by scanning over the whole map for places to be. They should be acting as squads under explict or implicit comm orders. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes and we all know the awesome teamwork that goes on in pubs right now <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe the map shouldnt show all the structures and etc... but just having a big overview like that would help alot. Lack of teamwork isnt a problem of the features in the game, its a problem of the people playing it.
I can't emphasize enough just how much I love the idea of this map for pub games. It will drastically cut down on the number of complete rambos, and instead people who don't have any orders from the comm can easily find other marines and help out the team instead of going to get themselves killed. It doesn't give away alien positions across the map or anything; all it does is take some of the burden of trying to keep the marines together off of the commander. Sure, in clan matches it works fine for the comm to keep tabs on everything and tell their marines about it; in pub games that very rarely happens. I've never been terribly fond of playing marines on pub games because it always degenerates into half the team ramboing for lack of orders. Plleeaaassseee put this map in 2.0 Final.
I do think, though, that there should be a server option to disable the big map if the admin wants to.
Makes sense - GPS Uplink module - equips all marines with ability to see full mini map, cost - 25 res. Pre requisite to MT?
Well im not a PT or anything, but i still think letting all marines see this map is a bit much.
Maybe I wasn't being clear, but this is EXACTLY what I meant: map overview to find your way around/to waypoints. But not an extensive layout of ENEMY structures and ENEMY movements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, now they can find their teammates and go towards them, helping marines to work as a group and helping the less experienced players keep track of what's going on and where they should be.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This function would more than admirably be fulfilled by a decent upper corner mini-map- it would allow people to follow others around to nearby stuff without getting lost, but not running halfway across the map from your post because you see a skulk or a marine died over there.
I agree on the MT. I do like the idea of a nearby motion tracking that simply shows on the minimap if there is motion in nearby ROOMS (maybe more like hivesight for the full map: motion tracking only shows aliens in nearby rooms if there is a marine close enough to them?): rather than blue circles (though... I love using them). We don't want to nerf the marines tho, and I'm already scared that playing marines will be too hard....
You're not masochistic enough for the TSA. Real marines use knives!
Seconded. This just makes so much more sense... Eye candy is nice, but it needs to be put in the right place...
I think it will be great to be able to see where your team mates are, it makes to Comm's job a bit easier. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Putting it on the minimap would take away the height dimension, adding a bit more challenge to the at-present wallhack-like system. The marine would be able to know relatively what part of a room a...skulk is in, but would not be able to pinpoint it as before.
Another alternative is to completely rip off the Aliens motion tracker - pulses every second or so; much like sonar. If it 'pinged' every few seconds, picking up any alien movement in an expanding circle around the marine, then it it would add yet more randomness to the experience, and therefore more atmosphere. The obvious balance would be to make this device only 'ping' every few seconds.
A third alternative is maybe a recolor of an area that an alien is hiding in. Under this system, maybe a room could change from the default blue to red when an alien is detected in that room. This would add even more randomness-the marine would know <i>something</i> is in the room, but would be completely blind as to <i>where</i>
Oops...perhaps this isn't the correct forum...forgive my zeal <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unless I misinterpreted something, it's pretty clear to me that it doesn't do that. The only alien structures shown are the two that are within sight of the marine in the hive location. Whether or not other players can see that too isn't known, and whether or not actual aliens can be seen on that map if they're in view isn't known either. It's obvious that it doesn't show all enemy activities.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This function would more than admirably be fulfilled by a decent upper corner mini-map- it would allow people to follow others around to nearby stuff without getting lost, but not running halfway across the map from your post because you see a skulk or a marine died over there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, a couple things:
a.) It's hard to get lost following a group of marines around as it is. The new minimap would still be great if it were size restricted, but it wouldn't really help that much.
b.) The point is that with the map, if you aren't there right as the marine group was leaving, you can still find them and catch up with them later if you don't have any specific orders from the comm. What if you don't have the map, get killed, your comm doesn't have any orders for you, and the last marines to leave the base left a minute ago? If they're out setting up a minibase at a res node or hive location or whatever, you could see that on the map and would be able to catch up with them to help. With a small minimap you'd still have no idea where they were, and the average player would resort to ramboing. The big map will serve as an organizational aid for marines; it allows them to stick together, as they were designed to do, at all times. There will always be newbies who disregard a comm's order for their own ideas, but frankly I don't really think a map will increase that behavior.
c.) The fact is that this map doesn't give marines any more knowledge or power than they had before. Nothing is shown that the commander wouldn't be able to simply tell you if you asked him, and some things only the commander can see(scanner sweeps). What it does is not force them to tell every little detail for marines to know what's going on; it makes the commander's job easier.
I know the idea of being able to see a real map offends some of you very deeply. I've already explained why I feel it fits into the story, and the point I'm trying to make here is that it's not really overpowered at all. It allows individual marines to go and help out their comrades without hearing specifically from the commander where they are. I would be perfectly happy if the map didn't indicate when something is under attack unless a marine is there. Hell, it would only be a minor annoyance to me if structures didn't show at all; what's really important is the ability to see fellow marines anywhere across the map. The big map helps pub marines to work together without relying completely on a commander's communication skills; what's wrong with that? It does not bring any new information to the picture, only organizes what you can find out from your teammates. It also does not in any way encourage a marine to ditch their posts; if the commander doesn't want anyone going to save a node he can say so.
It is a simple convenience that would make the marine team a LOT more fun to play and help NS's community grow by making the game more newbie-friendly. Personally a map like that would increase my enjoyment of pub marine games tenfold, and I know I'm not alone there. Please take the "average" player into consideration before you try to get rid of this map because it doesn't sit well with your preconceived notion of marine comm dependence.
- MT is exclusive the mini maps, and it shows the aliens location whenver the alien moves. It does not tell what type of alien they are, however, it probably will still be obvious as to what type of alien it is by gauging the speed of the alien. Oh well. This is way better than the current MT as it doesn't obscure your view when looking at aliens in the middle of a fight, plus it doesn't tell you <b>exactly</b> where the alien is. It would only be 2D, a major disadvantage. You wouldn't really be able to keep up your mini-map as you walk into an alien infested room, therefore making MT useless in combat situations, allowing alien abushes to occur quite easily. It becomes a strategic advantage of whether or not to use MT; when you use it, you can see all, however, you can't fight with a big **** map covering your eyes. Still, the small mini map would show the alien's locale meaning MT wouldn't just be for the average rambo marine.
- MT is limited to a range of roughly a seige cannon around the marine, so the marine cannot see everything. It would help, but the marine must still rely on the comm for big decisions.
- You can only see other marines that are <b>in your squad</b> on the mini map. This way, commander-marine interaction remains. If the comm puts you in a group, and then you die, when you respawn, you will know where to meet up with your buddies rather than wait for another order from your comm.
- Marine structures are always visible on your large mini-map. However, they cannot see aliens for you with the exception of the observatory.
Yeah, does anyone else think these are good ideas? ^^
It's the often stated NS manifesto: "be more newbie friendly." This is a logical, critical step in that direction.
I have seen new players get so frustrated being lost that they simply quit. A map will go a long way towards fixing that.
I also believe this WILL help the most overloaded player in the game, and we all know who that is. Yes, Marines are subordinate to to the Comm, but the current workload balance is totally out of whack. This will help fix the "why are there no good comms?" problem. Currently, you have to be a multitasking zen master to comm unless your rines know the map by heart.
I really don't see any major downsides to a good map, and plenty of upsides.
This has already been discussed to death and I doubt we can give Flayra any new opinions, at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can only see other marines that are in your squad on the mini map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This, however, is really cool, for all the reasons you listed. Makes some sense too, tie the little marines to their squadmates' huds.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT is limited to a range of roughly a seige cannon around the marine, so the marine cannot see everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Can't see the logic or use behind this... If aliens chose not to use sensories to hide their movements, they should be visible to everyone, all the time. It's a tradeoff. Nor is this really that broken... I doubt marines will run halfway across the map because of a blip on motion tracking, however, it does make things more interesting when you're on res tower defense and everyone else is off slagging skulks.