Can't judge it, haven't played with it. But here are my thoughts anyway: #1 WOOHOO AMAZING WOW COOL SUPER MEGA DUPER HOT BIG BREASTED FUNKY STUFF! #2 This is a much more complete and informative locator than hivesight (it seems), although it need to be activated. I'd say leave the rines on, leave the resnodes on, waypoints should appear, but remove any sort of structure on the map. It should be informative and helpful to guide players to a destination and/or squad, not show the status of the team's buildings/progress. But once more, I have not played with it so I cannot judge it.
But GOOD work max/flayra, this is just what NS really needed to take in that final bit of professionalism it was missing. Because let's admit it, that 1.0x minimap didn't exactly radiate "done". This on the other hand is the tsjernobyls of done! I love it! LOVE LOVE LOVE! Gimme 2.0! 3 days ARGH!
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Spazmatic+Jul 29 2003, 12:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spazmatic @ Jul 29 2003, 12:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Motion tracking is very limited in comparison, with cheap sensory chambers, immobile skulks (and, by golly, ambushing involves immobile skulks!) And don't pretend you can track six players moving back and forth across the freakin' map and know exactly which room they're in all the time, you can't. In fact, biologically you can't (quite). Thus, there will always be ambushes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Shrug* - after MT is up, I can count on my left little finger how many times I have gotten ambushed when playing marines. In order to avoid ambushes, I don't need to know where ALL skulks are; just the ones in the areas where I'm going.
Saying that skulks can keep motionless to avoid showing up on MT is silly; there is this human thing called memory. Unless you got to your position and have stayed still for more than 1-2 minutes, I will know you were there.
This also means that you have been a useless skulk for 1-2+ minutes... in a fastpaced game like NS, that's is a LOOONG time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The fact is, SCs are cheap (relatively), and invisible! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory chamber isn't cheap. While the 10 res cost is the same as all the others, sensory is expensive because its upgrades are not all that hot. Basically, you trade overall offensive fighting capability for a (counterable-by-scan) local (around the sensor chamber) advantage. So, in that respect, sensory is the MOST expensive chamber...
<!--QuoteBegin--matso42+Jul 29 2003, 07:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (matso42 @ Jul 29 2003, 07:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Saying that skulks can keep motionless to avoid showing up on MT is silly; there is this human thing called memory. Unless you got to your position and have stayed still for more than 1-2 minutes, I will know you were there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't find it silly at all. It's called Motion Tracking because it tracks motion. If they're motionless, then it can't track them. Yeah, sure, you can remember it yourself, as do i, but that's one of the downsides to MT.
It's not really a downside. It's pretty hard to sneak up on a marine with MT unless they're really not paying attention. I mean, when you see a big circle above the door in front, and then it goes away and no one is killed...it's kinda obvious to figure it out.
But I'd like to know how it is going to look like when I'm playing in 800x600 (I can't do else). The PopUp menu was covering nearly half of my screen, and it didn't seem to fit at all (e.g. the writing). I don't use the PUm, but I'm sure I will use the map (Me having ever been without any sense of direction(which is a problem when playing NS)), so: Is it going to be adjusted(if that is the fitting word) in lesser resolutions?
<!--QuoteBegin--Ahnteis+Jul 29 2003, 12:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ahnteis @ Jul 29 2003, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, the base belongs to the aliens. They've made it their home. The marines are coming to take the ship back, on orders so while they've seen maps, they haven't lived there like the aliens. Aliens also have hivesight so THEY should be at an information advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The hive hasnt been there that long. I imagine that it wouldnt take long from the aliens arrived and 'till the marines boarded the ship. And it shouldnt be that hard to relay info to the marines.
how did motion tracking become part of this? There's nothing wrong with motion tracking. Motion tracking reveals where aliens are but NOT the status of your allies. The very aware marine will notice a pack of skulks heading in a direction, but cannot assess what kind of threat that is to the marine force because he cannot:
-see buildings that are in danger and does not recieve a message when attacked -see if there are any marines close to those skulks who can defend said targets -determine exactly where they are, just a general location.
However, with this minimap, if it reveals building and soldier locations, that satisfies all 3 of the above things that the marine could not know previously. Now this marine can assess the threat of all situations with essentially a view that is as equally informed as that of the commander, and he can react accordingly. Put motion tracking on top of that and it is CLEAR that this doesn't come even to Hivesight but in fact SURPASSES it.
The minimap looks beautiful but it just gives out too much information. The kharaa, especially before carapace comes along, rely heavily on hit and run diversion attacks. This tool that will be on par with hivesight will be a great tool for newbies but for experienced players it will be a pure imbalance.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I would love to see MT work like radar pings. Every couple of seconds it would show the aliens in range. Nothing constant. Would rock if it updated every 10 seconds or so.. aliens can move a great distance in a few moments.
yes that is very nice. set a delay for 5-10 secs and make the sprites dissappear faster. This will make the marines have their silly wallha.. I mean motion tracker and give the skulks actually a chance to attack
<!--QuoteBegin--JRA_Rendar+Jul 29 2003, 01:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JRA_Rendar @ Jul 29 2003, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT kills all tense feelings. Instead of: "Did I hear a skulk?" It's this with MT: "Did I hear a skulk?" "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In reality this is what happens:
1. This wouldn't happen, remembering where a dot was last seen <b>is not hard at all, not even for 4-6 dots</b>.
2. If this did happen, the experienced player would say: "Lol Skulk how long were you waiting there, just to kill me and then get killed by my nub teammate?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn, how can you even pretend to know that sensory chambers are useless if you've never played 2.0? I'm not saying I know any better, but just from the vet/PT feedback it is quite the opposite. Trying to point out an imbalance in something that we've only read about in changelogs(the last of which, I remind you, we haven't even seen yet) is, simply put, ridiculous. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying SC's will be useless. However, they will be severly limited by it. Let's analyize SC and all of it's potential:
Cloak: Useless, SC allows me to see exactly where you cloaked.
Phermones: Useless without MT, adv. hivesight is a better version as far as I've heard.
Adv. Hivesight: It's like MT, but it has 1/4 the range(at lv. 3, however, did this range get changed at all?). You can see them, but so can they... wow. It's just leveling out the playing field, to a much weaker extent. Marine's still hold the advantage.
Now the real useful ability, the Perminant Cloaking field around an SC can be countered like this:
- Placing an Obs near an SC will kill all of it's effects. - If you are good with your MT, you can see where the aliens disapear/reapear off the MT, thus allowing you to know when to be on high guard.
Look at this realistically: For the cost of 45 res,(dunno if it's still this much)in a team pool(45 isn't much in a team pool), you counter <b>1/3</b> of the entire alien tech both in a hard way(this means it nullifys the other upgrades) and a soft way(lessens the effect). You are telling me there isn't an imbalence here? Good god. It screams the obvious to me.
If others won't agree with me or even offer valid counter-arguments to my concerns, then we shall agree to disagree, but I can probably wager that 1-2 weeks after NS 2.0 is released I will make a post that will rehash all of the above said points.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common Sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you think that MT should not only be completely ineffective if an alien is near one of the sensory chambers littered around the map, but it should also be reduced to a 1-2 room radius and force you to look up at the tiny minimap every couple of seconds to keep track of the alien? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And make it so that MT appears in one seige radius around you on the big map.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 11:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--JRA_Rendar+Jul 29 2003, 01:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JRA_Rendar @ Jul 29 2003, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT kills all tense feelings. Instead of: "Did I hear a skulk?" It's this with MT: "Did I hear a skulk?" "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In reality this is what happens:
1. This wouldn't happen, remembering where a dot was last seen <b>is not hard at all, not even for 4-6 dots</b>.
2. If this did happen, the experienced player would say: "Lol Skulk how long were you waiting there, just to kill me and then get killed by my nub teammate?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry man, but then you either suck at Skulking, or suck at ambushing. Because that SC range is going to cover a decent area as far as I understand. (Possibly multiple rooms) so you'll have no clue WHERE on earth that skulk is, even if you DO know what room he's in. Ontop of that multiple SC's scatterd about the map, although wont entirely remove MT from the whole map, it will still make the MT fade in and out so much it'll totally screw up your old 1.04 ability to remember where everything went, JUST because stuff will be moving in and out of SC range so much.
Comments
But here are my thoughts anyway:
#1 WOOHOO AMAZING WOW COOL SUPER MEGA DUPER HOT BIG BREASTED FUNKY STUFF!
#2 This is a much more complete and informative locator than hivesight (it seems), although it need to be activated.
I'd say leave the rines on, leave the resnodes on, waypoints should appear, but remove any sort of structure on the map. It should be informative and helpful to guide players to a destination and/or squad, not show the status of the team's buildings/progress.
But once more, I have not played with it so I cannot judge it.
But GOOD work max/flayra, this is just what NS really needed to take in that final bit of professionalism it was missing.
Because let's admit it, that 1.0x minimap didn't exactly radiate "done".
This on the other hand is the tsjernobyls of done! I love it! LOVE LOVE LOVE!
Gimme 2.0! 3 days ARGH!
Motion tracking is very limited in comparison, with cheap sensory chambers, immobile skulks (and, by golly, ambushing involves immobile skulks!) And don't pretend you can track six players moving back and forth across the freakin' map and know exactly which room they're in all the time, you can't. In fact, biologically you can't (quite). Thus, there will always be ambushes.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*Shrug* - after MT is up, I can count on my left little finger how many times I have gotten ambushed when playing marines. In order to avoid ambushes, I don't need to know where ALL skulks are; just the ones in the areas where I'm going.
Saying that skulks can keep motionless to avoid showing up on MT is silly; there is this human thing called memory. Unless you got to your position and have stayed still for more than 1-2 minutes, I will know you were there.
This also means that you have been a useless skulk for 1-2+ minutes... in a fastpaced game like NS, that's is a LOOONG time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The fact is, SCs are cheap (relatively), and invisible!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sensory chamber isn't cheap. While the 10 res cost is the same as all the others, sensory is expensive because its upgrades are not all that hot. Basically, you trade overall offensive fighting capability for a (counterable-by-scan) local (around the sensor chamber) advantage. So, in that respect, sensory is the MOST expensive chamber...
I don't find it silly at all. It's called Motion Tracking because it tracks motion. If they're motionless, then it can't track them. Yeah, sure, you can remember it yourself, as do i, but that's one of the downsides to MT.
Secondly: Nice. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I'd like to know how it is going to look like when I'm playing in 800x600 (I can't do else).
The PopUp menu was covering nearly half of my screen, and it didn't seem to fit at all (e.g. the writing). I don't use the PUm, but I'm sure I will use the map (Me having ever been without any sense of direction(which is a problem when playing NS)), so: Is it going to be adjusted(if that is the fitting word) in lesser resolutions?
The hive hasnt been there that long. I imagine that it wouldnt take long from the aliens arrived and 'till the marines boarded the ship. And it shouldnt be that hard to relay info to the marines.
1. Mini-map NICE!
2. Don't put skulks/aliens on MT is they shift walk. After all they don't make noise, maybe they are moving to slow to be tracked.
This would allow for ambushes while removing almost none of MT's utility.
-see buildings that are in danger and does not recieve a message when attacked
-see if there are any marines close to those skulks who can defend said targets
-determine exactly where they are, just a general location.
However, with this minimap, if it reveals building and soldier locations, that satisfies all 3 of the above things that the marine could not know previously. Now this marine can assess the threat of all situations with essentially a view that is as equally informed as that of the commander, and he can react accordingly. Put motion tracking on top of that and it is CLEAR that this doesn't come even to Hivesight but in fact SURPASSES it.
The minimap looks beautiful but it just gives out too much information. The kharaa, especially before carapace comes along, rely heavily on hit and run diversion attacks. This tool that will be on par with hivesight will be a great tool for newbies but for experienced players it will be a pure imbalance.
Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In reality this is what happens:
1. This wouldn't happen, remembering where a dot was last seen <b>is not hard at all, not even for 4-6 dots</b>.
2. If this did happen, the experienced player would say: "Lol Skulk how long were you waiting there, just to kill me and then get killed by my nub teammate?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Forlorn, how can you even pretend to know that sensory chambers are useless if you've never played 2.0? I'm not saying I know any better, but just from the vet/PT feedback it is quite the opposite. Trying to point out an imbalance in something that we've only read about in changelogs(the last of which, I remind you, we haven't even seen yet) is, simply put, ridiculous.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying SC's will be useless. However, they will be severly limited by it. Let's analyize SC and all of it's potential:
Cloak: Useless, SC allows me to see exactly where you cloaked.
Phermones: Useless without MT, adv. hivesight is a better version as far as I've heard.
Adv. Hivesight: It's like MT, but it has 1/4 the range(at lv. 3, however, did this range get changed at all?). You can see them, but so can they... wow. It's just leveling out the playing field, to a much weaker extent. Marine's still hold the advantage.
Now the real useful ability, the Perminant Cloaking field around an SC can be countered like this:
- Placing an Obs near an SC will kill all of it's effects.
- If you are good with your MT, you can see where the aliens disapear/reapear off the MT, thus allowing you to know when to be on high guard.
Look at this realistically: For the cost of 45 res,(dunno if it's still this much)in a team pool(45 isn't much in a team pool), you counter <b>1/3</b> of the entire alien tech both in a hard way(this means it nullifys the other upgrades) and a soft way(lessens the effect). You are telling me there isn't an imbalence here? Good god. It screams the obvious to me.
If others won't agree with me or even offer valid counter-arguments to my concerns, then we shall agree to disagree, but I can probably wager that 1-2 weeks after NS 2.0 is released I will make a post that will rehash all of the above said points.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common Sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you think that MT should not only be completely ineffective if an alien is near one of the sensory chambers littered around the map, but it should also be reduced to a 1-2 room radius and force you to look up at the tiny minimap every couple of seconds to keep track of the alien? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And make it so that MT appears in one seige radius around you on the big map.
Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In reality this is what happens:
1. This wouldn't happen, remembering where a dot was last seen <b>is not hard at all, not even for 4-6 dots</b>.
2. If this did happen, the experienced player would say: "Lol Skulk how long were you waiting there, just to kill me and then get killed by my nub teammate?"
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry man, but then you either suck at Skulking, or suck at ambushing. Because that SC range is going to cover a decent area as far as I understand. (Possibly multiple rooms) so you'll have no clue WHERE on earth that skulk is, even if you DO know what room he's in. Ontop of that multiple SC's scatterd about the map, although wont entirely remove MT from the whole map, it will still make the MT fade in and out so much it'll totally screw up your old 1.04 ability to remember where everything went, JUST because stuff will be moving in and out of SC range so much.
It's locked.