I agree that seeing fellow marines is a major boon. I guess I mostly don't want to be able to see much more than that: the layout, waypoints, and other marines, and perhaps even marines under attack.
I really like the idea of vaguer motion tracking: something that would, on the minimap, specify those nearby rooms that have movement in them. So you'd know what room an ambush or a rush might be coming from, but you wouldn't know how many or exactly where. Or different (or brighter) colors to specify the amount of movement (more Kharra = brighter).
I don't hate the current MT blue circles. At certain points of the game, perfect MT is the only real edge the marines have, especially with loose coordination. But it's a little cheap, taking a lot of the suspense out of things, and certainly it's near infinate range is too powerful. I think knowing what rooms the aliens are in, but not their exact number or position, is better for both atmosphere, less screen crowding, and the minimap (since we certainly don't need an complete view of all the aliens)
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 28 2003, 09:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 28 2003, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can only see other marines that are <b>in your squad</b> on the mini map. This way, commander-marine interaction remains. If the comm puts you in a group, and then you die, when you respawn, you will know where to meet up with your buddies rather than wait for another order from your comm. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With the exception of this one, I like those suggestions. However, I do NOT like this idea.
1) It's mildly confusing to new players who don't read manuals, because it isn't blatently obvious at first. Yeah, it's really a minor gripe, and can probably be fixed via good tooltips.
2) More importantly is that it fixes a problem in the wrong way, IMO. Seeing some marines and not others will quickly drive me nuts. Example: I'm heading towards a door that suddenly opens. I do not know whether it is a Kharra or another marine. It will bug me because there is no "game reality" reason why I shouldn't know if a friendly is behind that door. A game balancing decision is impeding my immersion. I agree that balancing comes before reality, but there are better ways to tackle this problem.
2a) Summary: Blinding marines is not the way to enforce solid teamplay.
3) If my commander vectors me to assist another nearby squad, I won't know where they are without explicit directions. This makes the Comms job harder, which is always bad.
4) Are we assuming squadless marines can see ALL marines? This would be logical, as the alternative is horrible. If so, you place the Comm into an ugly dilemma. He can give his marines better awareness by never assigning them to squads. That awareness comes at a price, tho, as the comm is once again swamped just like in v1.04. Proper tradeoffs can make a game more interesting, but I think this one is just frustrating for everyone.
I propose this change instead, to accomplish what you are asking: Just make the marines different colors on the minimap. I like this idea better than Squad numbers, anyway. First, it helps with immersion. I want to hear stuff like "Red Team, move to Maint Hive. Blue team, cover the vent in South Loop. Protect Red's flank." Second, it allows you to INSTANTLY glance at the minimap and see coherent squads. With colors, you'll be able to spend less time in the minimap and still know what the team gameplan is, all without pestering the commander. If you die, you can instantly identify your own squad, and still see everyone else.
I really like the color squad idea, it would add a lot of convenience to the current(?) squad system.
As for mini-map MT, let me explain something first. MT has two primary purposes as I see it: Defense and stealth. You want to be able to know when aliens are coming to the base or a res node you're building or whatever, and you want to be able to know when there <i>probably</i> aren't any aliens around so you can set up a siege or phase outside the hive or something(much less reliable with the new sensories for obvious reasons). As it is, all you have to do is glance around occasionally to know if there are MT blips in the near vicinity. If it were moved to the minimap everyone would be turning it on and off every 5 seconds so they can see if aliens are coming. That's not fun and it's not balancing, it's just irritating. I don't want to spend a large percentage of my game time turning the big map on and off to make sure the coast is still clear.
There is no real problem with how MT works right now. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
i say putting mt on the minimap will make locating aliens more accurate... in the 3 dimentional area on your screne the flat blips can sometimes be hard to interpret distances. maybe to make mt harder to use, the ns team could find a way to make all mt blips the same size (but make sure they are small) so that the distance is impossible to know <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
as for the colored squads on the minimap and map. that is exacly what i think should be put in.
however to make the map less confusing i think the only buildings that shuld be placed in them are. command chiar, armoury, tf, phase, and resource towers. (none of the upgrade buildings, turrets, ip, nor observatories)
<!--QuoteBegin--§W-+Jul 28 2003, 11:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (§W- @ Jul 28 2003, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> maybe to make mt harder to use, the ns team could find a way to make all mt blips the same size (but make sure they are small) so that the distance is impossible to know <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You might as well take the whole upgrade out because that would make it useless.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT doesn't need to be made harder to use. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's what I was thinking... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> MT isn't broken? Um.... sure it isn't.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
That upgrade is way too strong. It's a wallhack. It copies Hivesight except it's better. It's cheap to aquire and has no real counter, except for a sensory chamber... which is completely worthless if you think about it, scanner sweep not to mention aliens must stay in a single area; which is bad for if you want to be the acting (as opposed to reacting, making the other team react to you is a surefire way to win) team.
MT kills nearly any alien attempt at ambushes. Which, last time I checked, was one of the main concepts of the alien side, they were supposed to use their uber leet wallclimbing/blinking/flying/eating abilites to a great advantage, in that there could be sudden attacks before the marines even knew what hit them.
One of the things NS is described as:
Aliens have an intense experience where as marines have a tense experience. (This comes from somewhere on the NS.org site itself, so I imangine this is Flay's vision of the game)
MT kills all tense feelings. Instead of: "Did I hear a skulk?" It's this with MT: "Did I hear a skulk?" "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map."
Seriously, whether or not MT is balanced is out of the question. It's a major athestic issue which I feel needs to be adressed. Keeping MT as it's wallhack form makes about as much sense as keeping bhop. One could argue bhop was fair, but seriously, it was a terrible way of balancing it at the sake of NS's awesome atmosphere.
Putting MT on the mini map will be both good and bad.
Good:
- No more blue dots while fighting that obscure things. - It's more newb friendly, before, an experienced player could tell where the alien was by getting use to the distance of the blue dots. Now, he will know the exact room.
Bad:
- It will get rid of pin-point accuracy of aliens. Removing the 3d deminision allows marines to know where the alien is, "sorta". - Will not let marines shoot and constantly be aware of all alien activity.
Now, Spazmatic said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can't see the logic or use behind this... If aliens chose not to use sensories to hide their movements, they should be visible to everyone, all the time. It's a tradeoff. Nor is this really that broken... I doubt marines will run halfway across the map because of a blip on motion tracking, however, it does make things more interesting when you're on res tower defense and everyone else is off slagging skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
about the idea of limiting MT to a siege cannon radius for each marine's MT.
The reason why I think this is nessesary is this:
If you don't have this restriction, marines will know exactly where the gorges are building or what hive they intend to setup(by looking at a blips speed, it should be fairly obvious). In order to help keep as much importance on the comm as possible, I feel it becomes nessary to make MT a <b>pre-emptive combat advantage</b>, that is, they can tell if they are about to be attacked and by how many, however, they will not be able to use MT in combat to a great extent, as keeping that big map up in the middle of combat is pure suicide(although there is still the small mini map for slight combat help). MT should not really be a personal intellengence gatherer on the <b>entire enemy team</b>.
Another thing that limiting the range of MT to a siege cannon radius would do is allow aliens to make good ambushes if they had the proper scouting to know exactly where the marines are heading. These ambushes would need some good intell and a little luck to succed, but instead of MT killing of all hopes of ambushes completely, MT just makes it much harder to do. Not impposible by any means, but certainly it raises the difficulty.
Also, to future oppinions who say that SC's cloaking radius will still allow good ambushes:
What good is a SC's cloak radius if you <b>know</b> where the cloak radius is? All you have to do is look for where blue dots disapear, not hard at all to do. MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly. MT wouldn't be able to track the aliens, but it most certainly would allow marines to have a pretty darn good idea of where the SC may be.
EDIT:
Another thing, that color grouping of the squads on the mini map is a much better idea than mine. Good suggestion.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 12:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT kills all tense feelings. Instead of: "Did I hear a skulk?" It's this with MT: "Did I hear a skulk?" "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to help keep as much importance on the comm as possible<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comm's plenty important. His role isn't supposed to be Mr. Micro, and, in fact, on pubs, I imagine it'd be a relief to many comms (including myself) if players would stop pestering me every 10 seconds to know exactly where dot x went. A commander's job is organization, tactics, strategy, and a few menial tasks like building placement. Not to be God.
Now, the commander can scanner sweep, which means he controls the #1 source of intel... Motion tracking is very limited in comparison, with cheap sensory chambers, immobile skulks (and, by golly, ambushing involves immobile skulks!) And don't pretend you can track six players moving back and forth across the freakin' map and know exactly which room they're in all the time, you can't. In fact, biologically you can't (quite). Thus, there will always be ambushes.
I guess that covers the ambush thingy too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I'd imagine that the vets know how to use Motion Tracking a whole lot better than you or I. The fact is, SCs are cheap (relatively), and invisible! Drop a few, and suddenly a few siege ranges worth of area is blanketed (or, well, assuming you drop them just right and the skulks travel between them properly). I haven't heard a problem with 2.0 MT since way way back in the relatively early changelogs, and I'd imagine it's because sensories do indeed do their job. How could they not? Can you track six blue dots moving across the map and instantly identify, as soon as one disappears, which room he was in?
Forlorn, how can you even pretend to know that sensory chambers are useless if you've never played 2.0? I'm not saying I know any better, but just from the vet/PT feedback it is quite the opposite. Trying to point out an imbalance in something that we've only read about in changelogs(the last of which, I remind you, we haven't even seen yet) is, simply put, ridiculous.
Obviously this argument is pretty pointless since sensory chambers are a huge impediment to motion tracking and we haven't even seen them yet... I think it's fairly obvious that MT is going to be considerably less reliable with the addition of sensory cloaking fields, so arguing that it needs nerfing(which moving it to the minimap undoubtedly is) is pointless when we don't even know how effective it is anymore. Whether or not MT is overpowered in 1.04 is debatable; personally I don't think it is, but obviously that isn't really relevant anymore. Right now we just have to trust the testers to make sure it's balanced before thursday, and they've had a lot of time to do so. MT has already been nerfed once, and calling for another nerf by moving it to the minimap before we've seen the effects of the first one is not productive.
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 01:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under?
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Jul 29 2003, 12:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Jul 29 2003, 12:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Jul 29 2003, 01:23 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Jul 29 2003, 01:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> PWNED
Comm, we are running out of Pants, repeat, we are running out of pants! Urgent Request for pants!
I need new pants STAT!
NOT SHORTS@! PANTS!!! PANTS DAMN YOU COMM! PANTS!! EJECT!!! NOOB!!! PANTS!!!
**breathes**
Sorry, insanity subsiding now...
Btw, that picture is the secks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Aries86+Jul 28 2003, 10:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aries86 @ Jul 28 2003, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> *Me hopes that marine structures on the minimap flash red or something when they are under attack* <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, I don't think this is a good idea. This would result in Marines checking the map every 5 seconds to see if the buildings are ok or not. If they see even a single sentry flashing red, they would run over there in a flash, abandoning more important things they may be doing. If a marine should defend a structure, the comm should tell them. The map should be more or less static, except for marines. If we add too much to the map, then NS would just be an overhead game that switches to an FPS when you fight an enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I love the new mini maps, and the big maps too. I just don't think they should let players know everything the Comm does.
Here's an idea: When you toggle the map (one press leaves it on until you press it again), you should be able to use the command menu button to bring up a cursor. The cursor will bring up room and player names when waved over their area or icon. No more info than that. So when the Comm shouts at you to get to a room, you can bring up the map, then wave the cursor until you find the right room. Then you'll be on your way.
I would appreciate this, since I'm bad with remembering room names.
If structures show up on the minimap, how long before naughty comms start spelling out rude words with them? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it were moved to the minimap everyone would be turning it on and off every 5 seconds so they can see if aliens are coming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The radius for individual marine MT would really only need to be as big as the "always on" minimap.
So you think that MT should not only be completely ineffective if an alien is near one of the sensory chambers littered around the map, but it should also be reduced to a 1-2 room radius and force you to look up at the tiny minimap every couple of seconds to keep track of the alien?
There's only one thing I dont like about that map - it takes away the distinct advantage of Hivesight. Hivesight is nothing special now. As a marine you can just flip up the minimap and see where all your allies are and what they are fighting and if they are being hurt etc. etc. I thought hive sight was supposed to be an alien-specific ability with alien-specific benefits?
<!--QuoteBegin--briDge+Jul 29 2003, 04:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (briDge @ Jul 29 2003, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's only one thing I dont like about that map - it takes away the distinct advantage of Hivesight. Hivesight is nothing special now. As a marine you can just flip up the minimap and see where all your allies are and what they are fighting and if they are being hurt etc. etc. I thought hive sight was supposed to be an alien-specific ability with alien-specific benefits? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed.
yes, which is why marines have to take thier eye "off the ball" so to speak to look at the map, whereas aleins get all the information direct, straigh to thier hud. im not going to be suprised when lots of cries of "omg j00 m00b i was looking at my map!!" come screaming over the chat when a marine gets killed. the new map is good, but its also a major weakness for the inexperienced player, as they will constantly be looking at thier map to work out where to go, and this will leave them very vulnerable. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--briDge+Jul 29 2003, 10:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (briDge @ Jul 29 2003, 10:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's only one thing I dont like about that map - it takes away the distinct advantage of Hivesight. Hivesight is nothing special now. As a marine you can just flip up the minimap and see where all your allies are and what they are fighting and if they are being hurt etc. etc. I thought hive sight was supposed to be an alien-specific ability with alien-specific benefits? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hivsight is unobtrusive, intuitive and always on.
The big map isn't any of those. Also, we don't know anything about it remember ? What if theres a delay whilst it opens ? What if you can't fire whilst it out ? What if you need to stand still to use it ?
I'm not saying that any of that is true, but there could be balancing factors your not aware of.
If you think it takes away from the advanatage of hive sight look at it like this -
Imagine that the TSA are real and that they have realised their marines have a huge problem knowing what is going on, not only does this cost lives but it causes frustration with the commander, now they can implement a relatively simply technology which will stop most of these problems, so why shouldn't they implement this technology?
SC's negate MT within the SC's given range. No delay for this large map, and it only stays up if you hold the button, like the scoreboard, unless you bind your key as a toggle. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Basically, it owns. Kudos Max! Tennis anyone?!
...oh, and yes...PLENTY of surprises left. MUHAHAHAHA.
They should not focus too much on teamplay and bend realism and throw away all the nice scary feel for it..
cs in its first betas had very nice atmosphere. There was:
-realistic maps that looked like some real world place -player models that looked very similar on both teams which added real tension when you see someone running into you and you have to check his sleeves if its an enemy or not (which was purposed like this - check beta1 readme) -no radar
Now cs has been "fixed" for more teamplay and we get:
-maps that consist of mainly 1 or 2 colors (dust / aztec) with player models that have a nice camo that contrasts with it (like dark blue on grey/sand texture) so that you can easily target. -radar that shows where your teammates are (no more careful sneaking because if you hear something coming from that room and no teammates on map then you get a nice wallhack)
Someone know Vietcong?
There is a option for servers for "Vietnam" mode. There is no radar, no hud, no numbers - just the rifle. And if you play the ATG game mode (like cs with rounds) there is a lot of nice teamplay with teammates covering each other..
Want I say is to show just your position and your base and nothing else on the large map.
And for the wallha... I mean Motion tracking
A little fix
(this may be too late for v2.0)
Variant A:
Make the motion tracker a weapon like that if drawn will show all movement around a small radius around the soldier (like a torch that *lights* up the radar around the soldier) This would work nicely for teams where the soldier with mt has to be protected by the team so he can be the torch that leads them through the darkness <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Variant B:
Make the mt a little antenna thingy that can be attached to the belt/back of a soldier (like jetpack). Now the soldier can still play the torch but is able to use weapons (make it really expensive so that the equipment and the *radioman* will be fiercely protected by the team)
Variant C:
Like B but with the ability to deploy the radar somewhere like a tripmine (wall/ceiling) and track movement until a skulk comes to eat it. This would allow stealthy players to sneak around the map putting little *sensors* around the map that can if not seen by the skulks track the aliens.
*** Game should be like this:
Pack of marines with large guns carefully sneak through dark/scary place with evil hissing aliens lurking in the shadows.
and not like this:
Marines hop through map with phasegates and wallhack and commanders carpeting the map with sentries. ***
Holy wordnotpermittedbythestupidfilter! <b>I LOVE IT!</b>
And I'm very excited about the new possibilities this opens up. Ah, the things mappers will be able to do. Destroyed sections that are visible on the map in red, but can't be reached in game. Vents that don't appear on the marines' map. Caved-in rooms shown in their original shape on the map. Oh. My. God. The screenshot had my jaw on the floor and my mind flooded with ideas of how absolutely fundamentally this single game feature is surely going to influence online FPS gaming as a whole. Thanks to playtesting, this new thing will surely be nice and balanced after a few tweaks at most. Oh, and I hope the map - a bitmap packaged with the map file, right? - will be annotated with the names of the locations littered over it. Should be easy to do, and help people a lot, right?
Comments
I really like the idea of vaguer motion tracking: something that would, on the minimap, specify those nearby rooms that have movement in them. So you'd know what room an ambush or a rush might be coming from, but you wouldn't know how many or exactly where. Or different (or brighter) colors to specify the amount of movement (more Kharra = brighter).
I don't hate the current MT blue circles. At certain points of the game, perfect MT is the only real edge the marines have, especially with loose coordination. But it's a little cheap, taking a lot of the suspense out of things, and certainly it's near infinate range is too powerful. I think knowing what rooms the aliens are in, but not their exact number or position, is better for both atmosphere, less screen crowding, and the minimap (since we certainly don't need an complete view of all the aliens)
With the exception of this one, I like those suggestions. However, I do NOT like this idea.
1) It's mildly confusing to new players who don't read manuals, because it isn't blatently obvious at first. Yeah, it's really a minor gripe, and can probably be fixed via good tooltips.
2) More importantly is that it fixes a problem in the wrong way, IMO. Seeing some marines and not others will quickly drive me nuts. Example: I'm heading towards a door that suddenly opens. I do not know whether it is a Kharra or another marine. It will bug me because there is no "game reality" reason why I shouldn't know if a friendly is behind that door. A game balancing decision is impeding my immersion. I agree that balancing comes before reality, but there are better ways to tackle this problem.
2a) Summary: Blinding marines is not the way to enforce solid teamplay.
3) If my commander vectors me to assist another nearby squad, I won't know where they are without explicit directions. This makes the Comms job harder, which is always bad.
4) Are we assuming squadless marines can see ALL marines? This would be logical, as the alternative is horrible. If so, you place the Comm into an ugly dilemma. He can give his marines better awareness by never assigning them to squads. That awareness comes at a price, tho, as the comm is once again swamped just like in v1.04. Proper tradeoffs can make a game more interesting, but I think this one is just frustrating for everyone.
I propose this change instead, to accomplish what you are asking: Just make the marines different colors on the minimap. I like this idea better than Squad numbers, anyway. First, it helps with immersion. I want to hear stuff like "Red Team, move to Maint Hive. Blue team, cover the vent in South Loop. Protect Red's flank." Second, it allows you to INSTANTLY glance at the minimap and see coherent squads. With colors, you'll be able to spend less time in the minimap and still know what the team gameplan is, all without pestering the commander. If you die, you can instantly identify your own squad, and still see everyone else.
As for mini-map MT, let me explain something first. MT has two primary purposes as I see it: Defense and stealth. You want to be able to know when aliens are coming to the base or a res node you're building or whatever, and you want to be able to know when there <i>probably</i> aren't any aliens around so you can set up a siege or phase outside the hive or something(much less reliable with the new sensories for obvious reasons). As it is, all you have to do is glance around occasionally to know if there are MT blips in the near vicinity. If it were moved to the minimap everyone would be turning it on and off every 5 seconds so they can see if aliens are coming. That's not fun and it's not balancing, it's just irritating. I don't want to spend a large percentage of my game time turning the big map on and off to make sure the coast is still clear.
There is no real problem with how MT works right now. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
That's what I was thinking...
as for the colored squads on the minimap and map. that is exacly what i think should be put in.
however to make the map less confusing i think the only buildings that shuld be placed in them are. command chiar, armoury, tf, phase, and resource towers. (none of the upgrade buildings, turrets, ip, nor observatories)
You might as well take the whole upgrade out because that would make it useless.
MT doesn't need to be made harder to use.
In testers we trust.
That's what I was thinking... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MT isn't broken? Um.... sure it isn't.... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
That upgrade is way too strong. It's a wallhack. It copies Hivesight except it's better. It's cheap to aquire and has no real counter, except for a sensory chamber... which is completely worthless if you think about it, scanner sweep not to mention aliens must stay in a single area; which is bad for if you want to be the acting (as opposed to reacting, making the other team react to you is a surefire way to win) team.
MT kills nearly any alien attempt at ambushes. Which, last time I checked, was one of the main concepts of the alien side, they were supposed to use their uber leet wallclimbing/blinking/flying/eating abilites to a great advantage, in that there could be sudden attacks before the marines even knew what hit them.
One of the things NS is described as:
Aliens have an intense experience where as marines have a tense experience. (This comes from somewhere on the NS.org site itself, so I imangine this is Flay's vision of the game)
MT kills all tense feelings. Instead of: "Did I hear a skulk?" It's this with MT: "Did I hear a skulk?" "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map."
Seriously, whether or not MT is balanced is out of the question. It's a major athestic issue which I feel needs to be adressed. Keeping MT as it's wallhack form makes about as much sense as keeping bhop. One could argue bhop was fair, but seriously, it was a terrible way of balancing it at the sake of NS's awesome atmosphere.
Putting MT on the mini map will be both good and bad.
Good:
- No more blue dots while fighting that obscure things.
- It's more newb friendly, before, an experienced player could tell where the alien was by getting use to the distance of the blue dots. Now, he will know the exact room.
Bad:
- It will get rid of pin-point accuracy of aliens. Removing the 3d deminision allows marines to know where the alien is, "sorta".
- Will not let marines shoot and constantly be aware of all alien activity.
Now, Spazmatic said
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Can't see the logic or use behind this... If aliens chose not to use sensories to hide their movements, they should be visible to everyone, all the time. It's a tradeoff. Nor is this really that broken... I doubt marines will run halfway across the map because of a blip on motion tracking, however, it does make things more interesting when you're on res tower defense and everyone else is off slagging skulks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
about the idea of limiting MT to a siege cannon radius for each marine's MT.
The reason why I think this is nessesary is this:
If you don't have this restriction, marines will know exactly where the gorges are building or what hive they intend to setup(by looking at a blips speed, it should be fairly obvious). In order to help keep as much importance on the comm as possible, I feel it becomes nessary to make MT a <b>pre-emptive combat advantage</b>, that is, they can tell if they are about to be attacked and by how many, however, they will not be able to use MT in combat to a great extent, as keeping that big map up in the middle of combat is pure suicide(although there is still the small mini map for slight combat help). MT should not really be a personal intellengence gatherer on the <b>entire enemy team</b>.
Another thing that limiting the range of MT to a siege cannon radius would do is allow aliens to make good ambushes if they had the proper scouting to know exactly where the marines are heading. These ambushes would need some good intell and a little luck to succed, but instead of MT killing of all hopes of ambushes completely, MT just makes it much harder to do. Not impposible by any means, but certainly it raises the difficulty.
Also, to future oppinions who say that SC's cloaking radius will still allow good ambushes:
What good is a SC's cloak radius if you <b>know</b> where the cloak radius is? All you have to do is look for where blue dots disapear, not hard at all to do. MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly. MT wouldn't be able to track the aliens, but it most certainly would allow marines to have a pretty darn good idea of where the SC may be.
EDIT:
Another thing, that color grouping of the squads on the mini map is a much better idea than mine. Good suggestion.
Well then I'm going to be the first one to LAUGH when some 'nub" goes "Hey, did you hear a Skulk" and some long time NS player goes "No, you dumb nub, look, all the little blue dots are on the other side of the map." then all of a sudden a Skulk comes out of NOWHERE and owns that experianced player right up the butt, before he ever fired a single shot because there was a sensory chamber nearby and that skulk just proved he was superior.
Comm's plenty important. His role isn't supposed to be Mr. Micro, and, in fact, on pubs, I imagine it'd be a relief to many comms (including myself) if players would stop pestering me every 10 seconds to know exactly where dot x went. A commander's job is organization, tactics, strategy, and a few menial tasks like building placement. Not to be God.
Now, the commander can scanner sweep, which means he controls the #1 source of intel... Motion tracking is very limited in comparison, with cheap sensory chambers, immobile skulks (and, by golly, ambushing involves immobile skulks!) And don't pretend you can track six players moving back and forth across the freakin' map and know exactly which room they're in all the time, you can't. In fact, biologically you can't (quite). Thus, there will always be ambushes.
I guess that covers the ambush thingy too.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->MT left alone would still dominate SC when used properly<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, I'd imagine that the vets know how to use Motion Tracking a whole lot better than you or I. The fact is, SCs are cheap (relatively), and invisible! Drop a few, and suddenly a few siege ranges worth of area is blanketed (or, well, assuming you drop them just right and the skulks travel between them properly). I haven't heard a problem with 2.0 MT since way way back in the relatively early changelogs, and I'd imagine it's because sensories do indeed do their job. How could they not? Can you track six blue dots moving across the map and instantly identify, as soon as one disappears, which room he was in?
In testing we trust.
Obviously this argument is pretty pointless since sensory chambers are a huge impediment to motion tracking and we haven't even seen them yet... I think it's fairly obvious that MT is going to be considerably less reliable with the addition of sensory cloaking fields, so arguing that it needs nerfing(which moving it to the minimap undoubtedly is) is pointless when we don't even know how effective it is anymore. Whether or not MT is overpowered in 1.04 is debatable; personally I don't think it is, but obviously that isn't really relevant anymore. Right now we just have to trust the testers to make sure it's balanced before thursday, and they've had a lot of time to do so. MT has already been nerfed once, and calling for another nerf by moving it to the minimap before we've seen the effects of the first one is not productive.
Nice work Max.
I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under?
I'm sorry forlorn, I didn't realize you were in the playtest.. What name do you play under? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
PWNED
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
I need new pants STAT!
NOT SHORTS@! PANTS!!! PANTS DAMN YOU COMM! PANTS!! EJECT!!! NOOB!!! PANTS!!!
**breathes**
Sorry, insanity subsiding now...
Btw, that picture is the secks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
No, I don't think this is a good idea. This would result in Marines checking the map every 5 seconds to see if the buildings are ok or not. If they see even a single sentry flashing red, they would run over there in a flash, abandoning more important things they may be doing. If a marine should defend a structure, the comm should tell them. The map should be more or less static, except for marines. If we add too much to the map, then NS would just be an overhead game that switches to an FPS when you fight an enemy.
Don't get me wrong, I love the new mini maps, and the big maps too. I just don't think they should let players know everything the Comm does.
Here's an idea: When you toggle the map (one press leaves it on until you press it again), you should be able to use the command menu button to bring up a cursor. The cursor will bring up room and player names when waved over their area or icon. No more info than that. So when the Comm shouts at you to get to a room, you can bring up the map, then wave the cursor until you find the right room. Then you'll be on your way.
I would appreciate this, since I'm bad with remembering room names.
The radius for individual marine MT would really only need to be as big as the "always on" minimap.
Agreed.
Hivsight is unobtrusive, intuitive and always on.
The big map isn't any of those. Also, we don't know anything about it remember ? What if theres a delay whilst it opens ? What if you can't fire whilst it out ? What if you need to stand still to use it ?
I'm not saying that any of that is true, but there could be balancing factors your not aware of.
Imagine that the TSA are real and that they have realised their marines have a huge problem knowing what is going on, not only does this cost lives but it causes frustration with the commander, now they can implement a relatively simply technology which will stop most of these problems, so why shouldn't they implement this technology?
or you could view it like this -
its only a game deal with it.
Basically, it owns. Kudos Max! Tennis anyone?!
...oh, and yes...PLENTY of surprises left. MUHAHAHAHA.
cs in its first betas had very nice atmosphere. There was:
-realistic maps that looked like some real world place
-player models that looked very similar on both teams which added real tension when you see someone running into you and you have to check his sleeves if its an enemy or not (which was purposed like this - check beta1 readme)
-no radar
Now cs has been "fixed" for more teamplay and we get:
-maps that consist of mainly 1 or 2 colors (dust / aztec) with player models that have a nice camo that contrasts with it (like dark blue on grey/sand texture) so that you can easily target.
-radar that shows where your teammates are (no more careful sneaking because if you hear something coming from that room and no teammates on map then you get a nice wallhack)
Someone know Vietcong?
There is a option for servers for "Vietnam" mode. There is no radar, no hud, no numbers - just the rifle. And if you play the ATG game mode (like cs with rounds) there is a lot of nice teamplay with teammates covering each other..
Want I say is to show just your position and your base and nothing else on the large map.
And for the wallha... I mean Motion tracking
A little fix
(this may be too late for v2.0)
Variant A:
Make the motion tracker a weapon like that if drawn will show all movement around a small radius around the soldier (like a torch that *lights* up the radar around the soldier) This would work nicely for teams where the soldier with mt has to be protected by the team so he can be the torch that leads them through the darkness <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Variant B:
Make the mt a little antenna thingy that can be attached to the belt/back of a soldier (like jetpack). Now the soldier can still play the torch but is able to use weapons (make it really expensive so that the equipment and the *radioman* will be fiercely protected by the team)
Variant C:
Like B but with the ability to deploy the radar somewhere like a tripmine (wall/ceiling) and track movement until a skulk comes to eat it. This would allow stealthy players to sneak around the map putting little *sensors* around the map that can if not seen by the skulks track the aliens.
***
Game should be like this:
Pack of marines with large guns carefully sneak through dark/scary place with evil hissing aliens lurking in the shadows.
and not like this:
Marines hop through map with phasegates and wallhack and commanders carpeting the map with sentries.
***
And I'm very excited about the new possibilities this opens up. Ah, the things mappers will be able to do. Destroyed sections that are visible on the map in red, but can't be reached in game. Vents that don't appear on the marines' map. Caved-in rooms shown in their original shape on the map. Oh. My. God. The screenshot had my jaw on the floor and my mind flooded with ideas of how absolutely fundamentally this single game feature is surely going to influence online FPS gaming as a whole. Thanks to playtesting, this new thing will surely be nice and balanced after a few tweaks at most. Oh, and I hope the map - a bitmap packaged with the map file, right? - will be annotated with the names of the locations littered over it. Should be easy to do, and help people a lot, right?