<b>Why arent people realising you can always check your score by typing "status" in the console??? Making the score invisible on the scoreboard doesnt mean we cant check our scores, it just makes it more inconvenient to do so!</b>
Granted a lot of noobs wont know this, so keep it hidden for marine in public modes to encourage teamplay and visible for aliens because you need to encourage noobs to kill the marines. I just hope Flayra has the sense to realise that the people who have all voted for "no scores" clearly don't have a clue about NS and keeps his excellent 1.1 proposition <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='color:white'>Consider our members with smaller resolutions, please <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></span>
Yes, you can always use "status". Given that 90% of the whole HL community doesn't know that and doesn't even care, I would still vote for a scoreboard.
Please read below my reasoning:
Flayra and the rest of the sane people here are telling us that, "it is a team effort and therefore the only things that matter is who wins". Sure, I do agree fullheartedly with this reasoning. I consider myself a team-player for most of the times. I sometimes act as a team leader and direct all the Kharaa action around.
I am getting **** off when people don't play as a team, which for the Kharaa' this usually ends up in disaster. I do support the political correct standing of Flayra & Co. because I'm part of it, but here's why I still think a scoreboard showing informative ranking would be a hit.
The human being is egoistic in her nature. There is no way you can go away from that and please don't try to deny it. If there wasn't personal egoism, there wouldn't be any progress. One of the reasons communism is dying is that it played overly much on "teamplaying". Everybody is exhilaratingly praising team playing, but when the glow has faded away it's still down to the individual needs of the common man.
One way to satisfy that individual need is to see how much you've evolved compared to your fellow beings. This is true for all humans. Competitive thinking is so much hardwired in the cerebral paths of our gray matter, that we are doing it, even though we're not aware of doing it.
Everything in this life is also based on feedback. A relative small amount of positive feedback is what boosts the individuals motivation. Motivation is what makes us strive for becoming better at what we do (wether it is sports or work or anything else). Without motivation, we become less incentive and less creative, beginning to relax on your goals and ambition
There's a phenomenon in team-playing that is called competitive teamplaying. This means that you've achieved two goals:
1. Be highly useful for your team. 2. Maximize your personal satisfaction with your effort.
I think THIS is the kind of team players NS would benefit most from, the persons who are happily team-playing and try to evolve both to satisfy their individual needs and thus helping the team.
Therefore I would want to see a DIFFERENT ranking system for NS. Something that would award teamplaying. Remember that the human brain is so easily fooled by positive feedback, so even a small stimulus would boost motivation. Remember that motivation is the key word here. Sure, you get a motivation from winning a game, although we must remember, we are a TEAM but still we are INDIVIDUALS.
I am certain that flayra is smart enough to make a decision for himself on the issue, with this poll as a "suggestion" to how the community feels about the issue. Ditto with the lerk spike poll. Don't think that just because your choice lost that it's the end of the world, people.
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
well, flay DID make this poll <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
but it's a good way to see how the public feels even if flay wouldnt bow down to they're/our will.
<!--QuoteBegin--Redford+May 23 2003, 12:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Redford @ May 23 2003, 12:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am certain that flayra is smart enough to make a decision for himself on the issue, with this poll as a "suggestion" to how the community feels about the issue. Ditto with the lerk spike poll. Don't think that just because your choice lost that it's the end of the world, people. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't even have a choice.. my choice isn't in the poll...
I'm voting for a completely different ranking system. I.E. something not based entirely on kills.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
If there is enough desire for scores, inevitably someone will code up a scoreboard and release it as a plugin. Don't worry about it. After 1.1 has been out for a few months we can see whether the servers with scores or those without scores are more common.
WTH! it said i voted but i did not!. anyway it seems the 'hide all scores' is losing coz it has less than 50% and the other categories are about showing at least the aliens scores which i like.
status doesn't show deaths. it only shows kills. kills is not that important. it's kills divided by deaths that is much more important.
For the last time, this is not the case. Critizise the polls setup, but you can not deduce all three options being soley used as vote 'against' the fourth, as you put it.
<!--QuoteBegin--ViPr+May 23 2003, 01:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViPr @ May 23 2003, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WTH! it said i voted but i did not!. anyway it seems the 'hide all scores' is losing coz it has less than 50% and the other categories are about showing at least the aliens scores which i like.
status doesn't show deaths. it only shows kills. kills is not that important. it's kills divided by deaths that is much more important. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know what my buddy does.
He's a totally fragot (My nick for him so no offence intended) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> and he has a little pad and pencil next to him and he just marks every death. Call it low tech but you've got a couple second before respawn anyways. He's the sort of guy that goes out of the way to 'announce' his frags/kills during the game just incase nobody notices on the scoreboard. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why? -> Because a vote for 1 does not automatically mean a preference of 2 over 4. In the same way a vote for 3 does not automatically mean a preference of 1 over 4. A vote for 3 ONLY means a preference of 3 over 1, 2 and 4. Therefor it is logically incorrect to in any way combine options within a poll.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In fact, a vote for 1 <i>does</i> mean a preference for 2 over 4, because options 1, 2, and 3 are all at least a little compatible with each other while option 4 is <i>completely incompatible</i> with 1, 2, and 3. If you want alien scores shown, options 1, 2, and 3 all show them. Anyone that wants marine scores shown <i>also</i> wants alien scores shown, so will prefer options 1 and 2 over 4.
Not combining options isn't some hard and fast rule that <i>always holds</i>. The content of the poll <i>must</i> be considered. In this case, someone who votes for 1, 2, or 3 <b>will</b> prefer <b>any</b> of those options over option 4. You're trying to treat this as a purely syntactical problem and that <i>just doesn't work</i>. The semantic dimension must be considered and in this case the semantic trumps the syntactic.
In other words: Nemesis, yes you can.
In case y'all're wondering, no, I'm not really arguing re: scoreboard. I'm arguing about a piddling retarded bit of academia because I'm at work and what <i>else</i> is there to do?
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited May 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+May 23 2003, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 23 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In fact, a vote for 1 <i>does</i> mean a preference for 2 over 4, because options 1, 2, and 3 are all at least a little compatible with each other while option 4 is <i>completely incompatible</i> with 1, 2, and 3. If you want alien scores shown, options 1, 2, and 3 all show them. Anyone that wants marine scores shown <i>also</i> wants alien scores shown, so will prefer options 1 and 2 over 4.
Not combining options isn't some hard and fast rule that <i>always holds</i>. The content of the poll <i>must</i> be considered. In this case, someone who votes for 1, 2, or 3 <b>will</b> prefer <b>any</b> of those options over option 4. You're trying to treat this as a purely syntactical problem and that <i>just doesn't work</i>. The semantic dimension must be considered and in this case the semantic trumps the syntactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What if someone voted to show alien scores and hide marine scores (option 1) because that person wanted marine scores to be hidden and didn't care about alien scores? In that case, their vote for 1 meant a preference of 4 over 3. So, you see, a vote for 1 does not necessarily mean a preference of 3 over 4.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nupi+Jan 27 2003, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nupi @ Jan 27 2003, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ah, well i'm not sure. Im not an anti-frag person...oor what ever. I voted 'Proposed v1.1 (alien only, also marines in tourny mode)' mmm..i'm not sure though!. 'Hide all' is also good option. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Kavasa, this person doesn't prefer the other options over 4 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Unipac+Jan 27 2003, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Unipac @ Jan 27 2003, 09:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> However, I think the scores should either be hidden or shown for both teams, not just one. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Or this person.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, you see, a vote for 1 does not necessarily mean a preference of 3 over 4.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily, no. However, the gap is over a hundred people and I think it's unreasonable for the reasons outlined above to suppose that preferring no-scores to some-scores is the rule.
I usually don't post much, but this is an issue that I feel very strongly about.
1) Scores are not just a display of skill and acomplishments. They add a small, but very intregal strategic element to the game. When playing, others like to know the relative skill of their teammates. It helps judge current situations and determine if it is best to continue with a particular mission. For example, if I'm a skulk camping a hallway with a fellow teammate, I want to know if our combined efforts will be able to take out the squad of marines coming down the corridor. With scores, i'm able to judge if my fellow teamate is good enough to warrant my skills to his aid. If he's a bad player, I'll leave him to do what he does best: die. If he's good, I'll help him out and with our combined skill we may take out the marine squad. This is is not selfish gaming, it's common sense. Two good skulks will prevail where one good skulk and a bad one will not. In early game, the team may not be able to afford the loss of two skulks, whereas they might be able to hold the burden of one. It is the analyzation of such a situation that helps add to the strategic atmosphere of Natural Selection. <b>Denying scoreboards is denying strategy</b>.
2) Scores do not remove the 'cs frag kiddie' mentality. The "CS kids" are still around, they just have nothing to gloat about when they're marines. Besides, we'll have the muting function available in 1.1 if they decide to brag about their kills. Regardless, is it not good that someone is trying to rack up kills? I'd give an HMG to the arrogant cs kid if he's going to kill more aliens than the quiet and moderatly skilled average gamer.
3) From a commanding aspect, scores are vital. I believe it is a neccecity to know which players are good and which players are not. Commanders have a right to punish bad players and not give them weapons/armor. Denying a commander's ability to do this reduces the effectiveness of the marine team. I hardly believe this is intentionally done as a balancing aspect- to intentionally lose weapons on bad players in order to control marine resources. Besides, even if this is the case, commanders that frequent particular servers will eventually know who is good/bad, and eliminate this "balancing aspect".
Currently, I feel that there is a great rift in the relative skills of NS players. I became fed up with rampant stupidity in public NS play. I was tired of 5 gorge teams, turret factory commanders, "rhino" skulks that just charge, and blind-aiming marines. I was forced to find a greater challenge that was only offered by league play. I joined [HTO] (now apex| after merging with ng) and experienced the thrill of NS's higher level gameplay. After a long break due to school, I'm now back on the NS scene, though, without a clan. However, I do not find it fun to play on public servers. It is too frustrating trying to deal with lesser skilled gamers. The problem with NS is that good players are forced to use teamwork with bad ones. THIS DOES NOT WORK! Granted, NS is team game, but it's an FPS at heart. At this point, scoreboards and an observant commander are the only two things that remove conflict between good/bad players. Please, add scoreboards for the marines (or at the very least as a service for the commander) and don't remove them for the aliens.
Side note: Kill indicators are nice, but they remove from the atmosphere of the game. I'm not an advocate for their removal, not in this day in age at least. Lag and bugs require their presence to affirm a kill. I'd rather see the gun/bite graphic removed. Part of the atmosphere of the game is not knowing when a skulk will fall on your head. If your marine buddies die out of earshot, it's very easy to tell what killed them by glancing at the kill indicator. I find myself relying on it too much- I look above my head in certain corridors not because I'm cautious, but because whenever a teamate goes there, I see the skulk bite indicator in the upper right of my screen. It severely destroys the game's atmosphere if i'm able to tell what type of alien i'm against by the kill graphic. Basically, i'm asking to remove the graphic representation of death while keeping the text kill indicator. So, you'll still see who killed who, but you won't see how.
I reckon removing kill indicators is a grand old idea.
As for scores, well, i think its patronising for them to be removed. Its an online game for chrissakes and henceforth people play it to have fun. If the incentive to win isnt enough for people to work together as a team then so be it. I'm confused as to why you want people to play the game a specific way.
Occasionally i want to see how im doing as an individual, if my game is improving. Or perhaps see who's not going to lose that set of heavy armour. What is so bad about individual competitivism?
<!--QuoteBegin--BreadMan+May 23 2003, 04:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BreadMan @ May 23 2003, 04:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why not make it a server variable and let admins decide? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats probably the best idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If your marine buddies die out of earshot, it's very easy to tell what killed them by glancing at the kill indicator. I find myself relying on it too much- I look above my head in certain corridors not because I'm cautious, but because whenever a teamate goes there, I see the skulk bite indicator in the upper right of my screen. It severely destroys the game's atmosphere if i'm able to tell what type of alien i'm against by the kill graphic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scoreboards attract new players. That's my belief. Go with a server variable with scoreboard kills/deaths turned off by default. Then next version [or this version if there is time] more team-oriented information can be added.
Taking off the graphical representation of the type of kill is seemingly good idea. However, it's too easy to just look in the console log and see. (unless this can be masked as well somehow)
not to intrude on you boys and your "academia," but has anyone checked my numbers? Agreed? Disagreed? Ignored? In any case, I'd have to agree with the [hypothesis] that making 2 separate polls, one for aliens, one for marines, would make the world happier.
Thinking more upon the matter, I believe I voted for option 2. I don't really care what they do with the scores, but I'd much rather support the dev's decisions than insist upon my own. If this poll were to be redone, I'd probably vote 4 (as that option is now the proposed 1.1 score system).
<!--QuoteBegin--Speed 2 Dave+May 24 2003, 07:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speed 2 Dave @ May 24 2003, 07:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->not to intrude on you boys and your "academia," but has anyone checked my numbers? Agreed? Disagreed? Ignored? In any case, I'd have to agree with the [hypothesis] that making 2 separate polls, one for aliens, one for marines, would make the world happier.
Thinking more upon the matter, I believe I voted for option 2. I don't really care what they do with the scores, but I'd much rather support the dev's decisions than insist upon my own. If this poll were to be redone, I'd probably vote 4 (as that option is now the proposed 1.1 score system).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with you that there should be separate polls. People are just picking a default option without any true reason.
I'm getting completely furious with everyone's inability to realize the strategic advantage a scoreboard gives. It only serves to fuel my reasoning that NS has a gigantic skill gap. Everyone is concerned over the problems with egos and stats rather than the problems with gameplay.
Am I that odd in using scoreboards? Does not anyone else see the value they add to <b>strategic</b> gameplay? You'd think that people would want every little bit of strategy available in this sort of game. I believe these slight elements really add to one's enjoyment.
[offtopic]If you don't want death icons: "hud_deathnotice_time 0". Mandatory removal of deathnotices would do little other than hinder teamwork in my opinion, since it really helps to time rushes (and retreats to avoid the possibility of entering into a 50 second spawn queue).[/offtopic]
As for the scores issue, I voted for scores to be shown for both teams, but a svar or cvar would be ideal--let the client or the server op decide. Not much else to say that wouldn't be echoing the sentiments of Bebop and others...
I don't want to not see the death icons for just me, that'd be fairly.... useless.
What I mean is if Günther the marine kills Jawz the skulk with lmg: Marines will see "a marine killed a skulk with lmg_gun". Khaara will see "Jawz was killed by a marine with lmg_gun".
And exactly the same if it was the other way and the skulk killed the marine with bite: Marines will see "Günther was killed by a skulk with bitegun". Khaara will see "a skulk killed a marine with bitegun".
As an afterthought, this may be bad around cheaters, since the idea is to abstract the teams away from each other so you don't know if it's the same marine that kills you over and over or if it's someone else.
Comments
Granted a lot of noobs wont know this, so keep it hidden for marine in public modes to encourage teamplay and visible for aliens because you need to encourage noobs to kill the marines. I just hope Flayra has the sense to realise that the people who have all voted for "no scores" clearly don't have a clue about NS and keeps his excellent 1.1 proposition <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<span style='color:white'>Consider our members with smaller resolutions, please <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--></span>
Please read below my reasoning:
Flayra and the rest of the sane people here are telling us that, "it is a team effort and therefore the only things that matter is who wins". Sure, I do agree fullheartedly with this reasoning. I consider myself a team-player for most of the times. I sometimes act as a team leader and direct all the Kharaa action around.
I am getting **** off when people don't play as a team, which for the Kharaa' this usually ends up in disaster. I do support the political correct standing of Flayra & Co. because I'm part of it, but here's why I still think a scoreboard showing informative ranking would be a hit.
The human being is egoistic in her nature. There is no way you can go away from that and please don't try to deny it. If there wasn't personal egoism, there wouldn't be any progress. One of the reasons communism is dying is that it played overly much on "teamplaying". Everybody is exhilaratingly praising team playing, but when the glow has faded away it's still down to the individual needs of the common man.
One way to satisfy that individual need is to see how much you've evolved compared to your fellow beings. This is true for all humans. Competitive thinking is so much hardwired in the cerebral paths of our gray matter, that we are doing it, even though we're not aware of doing it.
Everything in this life is also based on feedback. A relative small amount of positive feedback is what boosts the individuals motivation. Motivation is what
makes us strive for becoming better at what we do (wether it is sports or work or anything else). Without motivation, we become less incentive and less creative, beginning to relax on your goals and ambition
There's a phenomenon in team-playing that is called competitive teamplaying. This means that you've achieved two goals:
1. Be highly useful for your team.
2. Maximize your personal satisfaction with your effort.
I think THIS is the kind of team players NS would benefit most from, the persons who are happily team-playing and try to evolve both to satisfy their individual needs and thus helping the team.
Therefore I would want to see a DIFFERENT ranking system for NS. Something that would award teamplaying. Remember that the human brain is so easily fooled by positive feedback, so even a small stimulus would boost motivation. Remember that motivation is the key word here. Sure, you get a motivation from winning a game, although we must remember, we are a TEAM but still we are INDIVIDUALS.
Aelius.
but it's a good way to see how the public feels even if flay wouldnt bow down to they're/our will.
I don't even have a choice.. my choice isn't in the poll...
I'm voting for a completely different ranking system. I.E. something not based entirely on kills.
status doesn't show deaths. it only shows kills. kills is not that important. it's kills divided by deaths that is much more important.
status doesn't show deaths. it only shows kills. kills is not that important. it's kills divided by deaths that is much more important. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what my buddy does.
He's a totally fragot (My nick for him so no offence intended) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> and he has a little pad and pencil next to him and he just marks every death. Call it low tech but you've got a couple second before respawn anyways. He's the sort of guy that goes out of the way to 'announce' his frags/kills during the game just incase nobody notices on the scoreboard. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
2 over 4. In the same way a vote for 3 does not automatically mean a preference
of 1 over 4. A vote for 3 ONLY means a preference of 3 over 1, 2 and 4. Therefor it is
logically incorrect to in any way combine options within a poll.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In fact, a vote for 1 <i>does</i> mean a preference for 2 over 4, because options 1, 2, and 3 are all at least a little compatible with each other while option 4 is <i>completely incompatible</i> with 1, 2, and 3. If you want alien scores shown, options 1, 2, and 3 all show them. Anyone that wants marine scores shown <i>also</i> wants alien scores shown, so will prefer options 1 and 2 over 4.
Not combining options isn't some hard and fast rule that <i>always holds</i>. The content of the poll <i>must</i> be considered. In this case, someone who votes for 1, 2, or 3 <b>will</b> prefer <b>any</b> of those options over option 4. You're trying to treat this as a purely syntactical problem and that <i>just doesn't work</i>. The semantic dimension must be considered and in this case the semantic trumps the syntactic.
In other words: Nemesis, yes you can.
In case y'all're wondering, no, I'm not really arguing re: scoreboard. I'm arguing about a piddling retarded bit of academia because I'm at work and what <i>else</i> is there to do?
Not combining options isn't some hard and fast rule that <i>always holds</i>. The content of the poll <i>must</i> be considered. In this case, someone who votes for 1, 2, or 3 <b>will</b> prefer <b>any</b> of those options over option 4. You're trying to treat this as a purely syntactical problem and that <i>just doesn't work</i>. The semantic dimension must be considered and in this case the semantic trumps the syntactic.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What if someone voted to show alien scores and hide marine scores (option 1) because that person wanted marine scores to be hidden and didn't care about alien scores? In that case, their vote for 1 meant a preference of 4 over 3. So, you see, a vote for 1 does not necessarily mean a preference of 3 over 4.
I voted 'Proposed v1.1 (alien only, also marines in tourny mode)'
mmm..i'm not sure though!. 'Hide all' is also good option.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kavasa, this person doesn't prefer the other options over 4 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Or this person.
Not necessarily, no. However, the gap is over a hundred people and I think it's unreasonable for the reasons outlined above to suppose that preferring no-scores to some-scores is the rule.
1) Scores are not just a display of skill and acomplishments. They add a small, but very intregal strategic element to the game. When playing, others like to know the relative skill of their teammates. It helps judge current situations and determine if it is best to continue with a particular mission. For example, if I'm a skulk camping a hallway with a fellow teammate, I want to know if our combined efforts will be able to take out the squad of marines coming down the corridor. With scores, i'm able to judge if my fellow teamate is good enough to warrant my skills to his aid. If he's a bad player, I'll leave him to do what he does best: die. If he's good, I'll help him out and with our combined skill we may take out the marine squad. This is is not selfish gaming, it's common sense. Two good skulks will prevail where one good skulk and a bad one will not. In early game, the team may not be able to afford the loss of two skulks, whereas they might be able to hold the burden of one. It is the analyzation of such a situation that helps add to the strategic atmosphere of Natural Selection. <b>Denying scoreboards is denying strategy</b>.
2) Scores do not remove the 'cs frag kiddie' mentality. The "CS kids" are still around, they just have nothing to gloat about when they're marines. Besides, we'll have the muting function available in 1.1 if they decide to brag about their kills. Regardless, is it not good that someone is trying to rack up kills? I'd give an HMG to the arrogant cs kid if he's going to kill more aliens than the quiet and moderatly skilled average gamer.
3) From a commanding aspect, scores are vital. I believe it is a neccecity to know which players are good and which players are not. Commanders have a right to punish bad players and not give them weapons/armor. Denying a commander's ability to do this reduces the effectiveness of the marine team. I hardly believe this is intentionally done as a balancing aspect- to intentionally lose weapons on bad players in order to control marine resources. Besides, even if this is the case, commanders that frequent particular servers will eventually know who is good/bad, and eliminate this "balancing aspect".
Currently, I feel that there is a great rift in the relative skills of NS players. I became fed up with rampant stupidity in public NS play. I was tired of 5 gorge teams, turret factory commanders, "rhino" skulks that just charge, and blind-aiming marines. I was forced to find a greater challenge that was only offered by league play. I joined [HTO] (now apex| after merging with ng) and experienced the thrill of NS's higher level gameplay. After a long break due to school, I'm now back on the NS scene, though, without a clan. However, I do not find it fun to play on public servers. It is too frustrating trying to deal with lesser skilled gamers. The problem with NS is that good players are forced to use teamwork with bad ones. THIS DOES NOT WORK! Granted, NS is team game, but it's an FPS at heart. At this point, scoreboards and an observant commander are the only two things that remove conflict between good/bad players. Please, add scoreboards for the marines (or at the very least as a service for the commander) and don't remove them for the aliens.
Side note: Kill indicators are nice, but they remove from the atmosphere of the game. I'm not an advocate for their removal, not in this day in age at least. Lag and bugs require their presence to affirm a kill. I'd rather see the gun/bite graphic removed. Part of the atmosphere of the game is not knowing when a skulk will fall on your head. If your marine buddies die out of earshot, it's very easy to tell what killed them by glancing at the kill indicator. I find myself relying on it too much- I look above my head in certain corridors not because I'm cautious, but because whenever a teamate goes there, I see the skulk bite indicator in the upper right of my screen. It severely destroys the game's atmosphere if i'm able to tell what type of alien i'm against by the kill graphic. Basically, i'm asking to remove the graphic representation of death while keeping the text kill indicator. So, you'll still see who killed who, but you won't see how.
I reckon removing kill indicators is a grand old idea.
As for scores, well, i think its patronising for them to be removed. Its an online game for chrissakes and henceforth people play it to have fun. If the incentive to win isnt enough for people to work together as a team then so be it. I'm confused as to why you want people to play the game a specific way.
Occasionally i want to see how im doing as an individual, if my game is improving. Or perhaps see who's not going to lose that set of heavy armour. What is so bad about individual competitivism?
Thats probably the best idea.
That's a really good idea.
Taking off the graphical representation of the type of kill is seemingly good idea. However, it's too easy to just look in the console log and see. (unless this can be masked as well somehow)
Thinking more upon the matter, I believe I voted for option 2. I don't really care what they do with the scores, but I'd much rather support the dev's decisions than insist upon my own. If this poll were to be redone, I'd probably vote 4 (as that option is now the proposed 1.1 score system).
Thinking more upon the matter, I believe I voted for option 2. I don't really care what they do with the scores, but I'd much rather support the dev's decisions than insist upon my own. If this poll were to be redone, I'd probably vote 4 (as that option is now the proposed 1.1 score system).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you that there should be separate polls. People are just picking a default option without any true reason.
I'm getting completely furious with everyone's inability to realize the strategic advantage a scoreboard gives. It only serves to fuel my reasoning that NS has a gigantic skill gap. Everyone is concerned over the problems with egos and stats rather than the problems with gameplay.
Am I that odd in using scoreboards? Does not anyone else see the value they add to <b>strategic</b> gameplay? You'd think that people would want every little bit of strategy available in this sort of game. I believe these slight elements really add to one's enjoyment.
As for the scores issue, I voted for scores to be shown for both teams, but a svar or cvar would be ideal--let the client or the server op decide. Not much else to say that wouldn't be echoing the sentiments of Bebop and others...
What I mean is if Günther the marine kills Jawz the skulk with lmg:
Marines will see "a marine killed a skulk with lmg_gun".
Khaara will see "Jawz was killed by a marine with lmg_gun".
And exactly the same if it was the other way and the skulk killed the marine with bite:
Marines will see "Günther was killed by a skulk with bitegun".
Khaara will see "a skulk killed a marine with bitegun".
As an afterthought, this may be bad around cheaters, since the idea is to abstract the teams away from each other so you don't know if it's the same marine that kills you over and over or if it's someone else.
*bump*
I don't think NS should be made competative for points, unless you want it. In which case they should turn on tourney mode.