a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Cereal_KillR+May 22 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cereal_KillR @ May 22 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->great I didn't get to vote and it said I already voted :/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a very old thread. Are you sure you didn't vote back in January or February?
<!--QuoteBegin--FireWater+May 22 2003, 03:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FireWater @ May 22 2003, 03:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> actually the majority of the community wants some scores to be shown. But unfortunately the survey is rigged and it appears that no scores won, but it didnt, sorry =/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think this poll just as the lerk poll was formulated very specifically to that the outcome was known in advance (it's not that complicated but obviously many don't see it). So that when the changes happen, Flay only has to point to the polls when people complain.
Could be unintentional but that would be a funny coincidence and as a rule I don't give much wheight to 'coincidence'.
As to who 'won' that is obviously wholy subjective, the simple fact remains there is one option which is ahead of the others. No more no less can be drawn from such a poll.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
it can be more... simply that aliens want scores, all three not winning options have that together, and that are 60& of the voters. Wich means, give the Aliens scores, for more details we need another poll
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it can be more... simply that aliens want scores, all three not winning options have that together, and that are 60& of the voters. Wich means, give the Aliens scores, for more details we need another poll <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is very true. Looking at the pole.. it only takes a seconds to realize that the "no scores" option's the loser.. only 40% of the community wants it.... 60% want some form of score.... But the pole split them up. I think flay should start a new pole to find out what's wanted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Every team based game whether in Real Life or online, show's an individual's performance. Maybe instead of just kills showing, they should also show "assists" meaning, they helped out to kill something, "way points followed/waypoints assigned" A ratio of how well a person is following orders, and "structures Built", no need to explain that." --Firewater<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Find that thread in the beta discussion, or <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=32788' target='_blank'>here</a>.
I think this idea has alot of merit, and should be in the next poll... Read that thread, I think FireWater's got some really good point/ideas.... And it makes sense to me... I'll admit.. I only check the scores to see how my friends are doing aon a server vs. myself.. and it gives me a good way to track my improvment... and that's important to me... as it might be to others....
This whole discussion about scores reminds me a lot of DoD...
Even though DoD is about capturing flags on the surface, it boils down to killing lots of enemies, so that they're denied access to said flags. Granted, there is a slight amount of territorial control, but when all is said and done, it's fragging that wins FPS games. Yet the DoD forums have seen endless whines and rants about clan players who are too "deathmatchy" and "only care about fragging".
What happened in v1.0? Frag counts and flag captures were separated on the scoreboard, and now everyone can look at the number he cares most about.
<!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Jan 27 2003, 07:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Jan 27 2003, 07:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Who gives a crap about teamwork, this game is about frags. Instead of limitning us, how about you make a variable like in CS so everyone can decide for themselves? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do hope that the [/sarcasm] tags were missing from that post... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> judging by his previous posts i somewhat think he was being serious.
Anyway, i voted for all scores to be removed. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Meh...they didn't have my option so I voted for 42.
Either show all the scores, or none of the scores, that's my opinion <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Asraniel+May 22 2003, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ May 22 2003, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it can be more... simply that aliens want scores, all three not winning options have that together, and that are 60& of the voters. Wich means, give the Aliens scores, for more details we need another poll <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that. When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls are used all the time.
When I´m Comm, I give guns to those who make an effort to stay in groups... that way: 1) Less chance of them dropping dead 2) If they do happen to drop dead there´ll be someone else to pick up their (or MY =)) gun.
<!--QuoteBegin--a civilian+May 22 2003, 03:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ May 22 2003, 03:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This is a very old thread. Are you sure you didn't vote back in January or February? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> hmm probably <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if I dont remember it
Frankly I can't believe we got all these people saying "OMG TAKE SCORES AWAY IT WILL MAKE TEH RAMBOS STOP!!?!?!?!?"
[B]Don't force people to play the game the way YOU like. It's none of your business. Do you think in soccer they wouldn't show how many goals an individual player has scored in a game? In baseball how many runs a player has? In football who's scored the touchdowns?
Things that don't directly harm gameplay shouldn't even be up for discussion like this. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Incitatus+May 22 2003, 05:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Incitatus @ May 22 2003, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Asraniel+May 22 2003, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ May 22 2003, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it can be more... simply that aliens want scores, all three not winning options have that together, and that are 60& of the voters. Wich means, give the Aliens scores, for more details we need another poll <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that. When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls are used all the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incitatus, its in my opinion that your wrong. If we were to start the poll over and split no scores to *No scores with Team scores shown* *No scores with Team scores not shown* *No scores with status disabled* vs *Show scores* i would bet my bottom dollar that show scores would win. The best way to do it is to make a poll for "Show scores vs Dont show scores" and then afterwards make another poll of sub categorys depending on what wins.
<!--QuoteBegin--krapht+May 22 2003, 01:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (krapht @ May 22 2003, 01:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Frankly I can't believe we got all these people saying "OMG TAKE SCORES AWAY IT WILL MAKE TEH RAMBOS STOP!!?!?!?!?"
[B]Don't force people to play the game the way YOU like. It's none of your business. Do you think in soccer they wouldn't show how many goals an individual player has scored in a game? In baseball how many runs a player has? In football who's scored the touchdowns?
Things that don't directly harm gameplay shouldn't even be up for discussion like this. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's fine, but the object of the game is to starve the enemy for resources and to control the map, not to kill the most number of enemies, so fragging a mob is more akin to someone making a good pass in football than actually scoring. Taking out a res node or a mini-base would more equate that.
Unnecessary, Lagger. 424 people wanted <i>some</i> sort of scoreboard, while only 292 (or whatever) wanted no scores shown. In fact, let's bold this just to be real explicit:
<b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b>
So if Flay's gonna go by public opinion as determined by this poll, then he should put up a scoreboard. This should not be a controversial statement.
Personally, I fall on the pro-scoreboard side of the fence. I would ask my opponents a question: Do you think showing the scores will in fact hurt the team? This is the only justification I can come up with. Honestly I don't see it. With a scoreboard, you hit tab occasionally and see how you're doing. It's a quick and easy estimate of fighting ability in the game. That's all.
I really doubt seeing a score will make someone "rambo," and furthermore, I doubt having a couple guys out alone scouting and knifing rogue RTs is gonna hurt the marine team. Finally, 95% of the time if you issue someone a direct request, they'll help you out.
Frankly, as a marine, I check status in console every so often, and the time I spend opening, typing, and hunting through the list for my name is probably more injurious to the team than a quick look at the scoreboard.
To conclude: I deny the proposition that being able to see your score will reduce teamwork. I don't see it happening in 1.04 on the alien team, and I will eat one of my various hats if it happened in 1.1 if marines could see score a little easier than a "status".
I will repeat the oft-made suggestion and note that this seems to be a prime candidate for a server variable.
i dont understand... why the scores arent shown? to remove the solo fraghunting? i dont think this will help anyone in anything <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> almost sounds absurd that this would somehow magically make teamwork any better... if player doesnt realise that team before indivituals, then they should go back playing unreal or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
yeah... my english sucks big time.. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> cheers mystiqq <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Voicing my opinion on this issue is neccessary since they have already taken out the scoreboard in v1.1. Even though i proabably wont change their minds or what ending result i still feel the need to voice what I believe should happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--lagger+May 22 2003, 07:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lagger @ May 22 2003, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Incitatus+May 22 2003, 05:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Incitatus @ May 22 2003, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Asraniel+May 22 2003, 04:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Asraniel @ May 22 2003, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it can be more... simply that aliens want scores, all three not winning options have that together, and that are 60& of the voters. Wich means, give the Aliens scores, for more details we need another poll <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that. When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls are used all the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Incitatus, its in my opinion that your wrong. If we were to start the poll over and split no scores to *No scores with Team scores shown* *No scores with Team scores not shown* *No scores with status disabled* vs *Show scores* i would bet my bottom dollar that show scores would win. The best way to do it is to make a poll for "Show scores vs Dont show scores" and then afterwards make another poll of sub categorys depending on what wins. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I almost agree, there is a certain probability that it is true. But as I stated it is not a logically correct assumption. Therefore we can not use it as fact or base ANY conclusions on it. A better poll would indeed have been, 2 options; scores(with or without certain limitations) and no scores at all. But that's just hypothetical. And as I stated I think the polls were formulated like this for a reason.
Saying 60% wants this or that is WRONG. We can not deduce that as fact with the current poll. Anyone saying that is talking ****. It might be true it might be untrue we have no idea and can not deduce anything of the sort from this poll.
The only thing this poll tells us is that of the 4 alternatives presented. No scores is the favorite.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+May 22 2003, 07:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 22 2003, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> OMG. How many times do I have to say it. This statement is false. Or to be more precise the poster has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA whether it is true or false.
Some types of scores. I agree with lagger that we should have an overall vote (scores vs. no scores) because the results I am seeing right now are that a majority does want to see scores somehow.
<!--QuoteBegin--//KEm1KaL\\+May 22 2003, 08:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (//KEm1KaL\\ @ May 22 2003, 08:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some types of scores. I agree with lagger that we should have an overall vote (scores vs. no scores) because the results I am seeing right now are that a majority does want to see scores somehow. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ok I give up :/ Why can't you guys listen to someone who has studied this stuff for 2 years :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize I could twist the results in the exact opposite direction and say a majority of voters(566) perfer scores to be hidden. That's only if I use your logic, though.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+May 22 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 22 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> With a scoreboard, you hit tab occasionally and see how you're doing. It's a quick and easy estimate of fighting ability in the game. That's all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> .. but it isnt. you could take out a locked hive alone, if no marine jumped trought the pg and get no kill at all. Have you helped more than that guy thats eating random rambos that are doing the same? Yes. Do you have a better score? No. So there's no reason the scoreboard should be in. ==== Why take it out? Because some ppl WILL rambo for their score. You can say they should go play another game but they won't. If taking out the scoreboard on pubs gets you 1 less rambo every 5 games, it has helped. ==== In clanplay it shouldn't really matter, so you can just leave it in.
Incitatus: I was clear that I was discussing only the population of people that have voted, so that isn't the issue. Scores or no-scores is an exhaustive and exclusive listing of the possibilities. This is a binary thing, so neither is that the issue.
I suppose you can try to make an argument that a person who doesn't get his or her specific subdivision of score-showing would prefer no-scores to showing the "wrong" scores. And to that extent, you're correct: I cannot be 100% certain that more people prefer the showing of scores, period, to no-scores.
But come <b>on</b>, how likely is it that <b>over one hundred</b> of the people who voted for the various score-showing options would change their mind to no-scores if they didn't get their pet option? It's a rock-solid safe assumption to make that more of <b>those who have voted</b> prefer scores to no-scores.
Arr. Resisting the urge for a few jabs here. Suffice to say: your objection has been noted and answered. Your limp appeals to authority have fallen on deaf ears, as they should have. Oooh golly you studied it for two years. Wow. I've studied Victorian English literature for several years, but if I said George Elliot was a man, people would be right to disregard me.
Edit to answer robke: you think a scoreboard will actually hurt teams, I disagree. We're unlikely to convince each other. I think the easy answer is to make a server variable.
Way to many pages to sift through <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remove all scores. There is only one end to a round. Either you win, or you lose. Score mean nothing in the end, I've seen many games end where the Marines actually had a higher kill count than the aliens, yet the aliens win. Additionally, showing kills for the aliens make's some players less willing to take risks, and as such won't support or help thier team in offences/defences. How many people do you see use Xenocide when 3 hives go up? Not many generally. I love to use it however, especialy when I hear some vigorous armory-lovin going on.
Incitatus, we are saying that more people want some form of a scoreboard because 3 options include a scoreboard of some form and those added together are more then just saying no scores. Pls explain why doing this is wrong? Its a fact that those 3 options together are more then no score and all of them include some type of scoreboard.
rboke, Not sure what your trying to say. How is a marine who didnt jump through a phase gate to the locked hive... and got no kills helping the team :/. I may be wrong since I dont totally grasp what your saying in the reply.
QuixotesGhost, How? I dont see how you would be able to turn the poll against us like that... pls explain your reasoning.
Incitatus, you may have studied anything, but obviously you did not understand stochastic
To put it at its simplest: option A: "remove all scores" --> "event A" option B: "leave at least 1 score" --> counter-event to A both make up the set of all possibilites, thus: frequency of A + frequency of B = all voters
It does NOT matter of how many other events B consists and whether they overlap or not. We regard ONLY "no scores" <--> "at least one score" which exclude each other. And both together comprise ALL possibilities, because there is no other option (how could it?). That means that both together make up all voters. So "100% - Probability of event A" = Probability of event B --> 60% want at least one score to be shown.
Whether B can be divided up does not matter. You can divide A up as well. It does not matter whether you sum up all the other options, it's just that the excluded option of A is the counter-option, thus making up all the other possibilities.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+May 22 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 22 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And a majority of the voters do not want marines to have the scores visible. And a majority of the voters wants a change.
Since we currently have alien only scores, and the majority wants a change and it doesn't include showing marine scores, the logical solution would be to remove alien scores. *grin*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I fall on the pro-scoreboard side of the fence. I would ask my opponents a question: Do you think showing the scores will in fact hurt the team?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I do. If people are pre-occupied with their own scoring, this isn't the game for them. Scoring is an indicator of alien killed, it has nothing to do with winning or loosing the game. the guy who goes around and build res towers and protects those from aliens and welds them helps the team a lot more than what the one who runs around radomly and racks up kills does. It just focuses peoples priority on the wrong things.
I ask you why you think not showing the scores hurts the team?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly, as a marine, I check status in console every so often, and the time I spend opening, typing, and hunting through the list for my name is probably more injurious to the team than a quick look at the scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then disable the status message or just don't increase the values of kill/deaths when someone dies. No more ability to check score, no more problem with people spending time using status.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will repeat the oft-made suggestion and note that this seems to be a prime candidate for a server variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nay, server variables should be reserved for important things, making every little disputed item a variable will set a bad trend.
<!--QuoteBegin--kavasa+May 22 2003, 07:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kavasa @ May 22 2003, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b>
So if Flay's gonna go by public opinion as determined by this poll, then he should put up a scoreboard. This should not be a controversial statement.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If this poll is actually going to do any sense, the second category isn't logical as it includes tourneymode. Tourneymode can have scores it won't do anything. The issue is rather on casual play.
Where: (considering the 2nd category is useless)
397 people don't want scores as marines 305 people dont want scores as aliens 167 people WANT marine scores 158 people want alien scores
397vs167 for marine scores (regardless of aliens) 305vs158 for aliens scores (regardless of marines) 305vs167 for both
This poll is horribly missing: we don't want scores except in tourneymode (and eventually we only want marine scores but that would be horribly horrible)
Considering this useless (in my eyes) category has been put, I suggest making a new poll. As they might have voted for no scores as well as with scores.
Keep in mind that one attractive aspect of NS is the fact you are NOT looking after frags. Adding a scoreboard would negate this and put a much more competition between marines. (fragstealer etc..)
Comments
This is a very old thread. Are you sure you didn't vote back in January or February?
I think this poll just as the lerk poll was formulated very specifically to that the outcome was known in advance (it's not that complicated but obviously many don't see it). So that when the changes happen, Flay only has to point to the polls when people complain.
Could be unintentional but that would be a funny coincidence and as a rule I don't give much wheight to 'coincidence'.
As to who 'won' that is obviously wholy subjective, the simple fact remains there is one option which is ahead of the others.
No more no less can be drawn from such a poll.
This is very true. Looking at the pole.. it only takes a seconds to realize that the "no scores" option's the loser.. only 40% of the community wants it.... 60% want some form of score.... But the pole
split them up. I think flay should start a new pole to find out what's wanted.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Every team based game whether in Real Life or online, show's an individual's performance. Maybe instead of just kills showing, they should also show "assists" meaning, they helped out to kill something, "way points followed/waypoints assigned" A ratio of how well a person is following orders, and "structures Built", no need to explain that." --Firewater<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Find that thread in the beta discussion, or <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=32788' target='_blank'>here</a>.
I think this idea has alot of merit, and should be in the next poll... Read that thread, I think FireWater's got some really good point/ideas.... And it makes sense to me... I'll admit.. I only check the scores to see how my friends are doing aon a server vs. myself.. and it gives me a good way to track my improvment... and that's important to me... as it might be to others....
So, Flay.. think we can get a new poll?
Even though DoD is about capturing flags on the surface, it boils down to killing lots of enemies, so that they're denied access to said flags. Granted, there is a slight amount of territorial control, but when all is said and done, it's fragging that wins FPS games. Yet the DoD forums have seen endless whines and rants about clan players who are too "deathmatchy" and "only care about fragging".
What happened in v1.0? Frag counts and flag captures were separated on the scoreboard, and now everyone can look at the number he cares most about.
Any viable compromise in sight for NS?
I do hope that the [/sarcasm] tags were missing from that post... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
judging by his previous posts i somewhat think he was being serious.
Anyway, i voted for all scores to be removed. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Either show all the scores, or none of the scores, that's my opinion <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that.
When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like
you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted
for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing
this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls
are used all the time.
hmm probably <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Even if I dont remember it
[B]Don't force people to play the game the way YOU like. It's none of your business. Do you think in soccer they wouldn't show how many goals an individual player has scored in a game? In baseball how many runs a player has? In football who's scored the touchdowns?
Things that don't directly harm gameplay shouldn't even be up for discussion like this. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that.
When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like
you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted
for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing
this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls
are used all the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incitatus, its in my opinion that your wrong. If we were to start the poll over and split no scores to *No scores with Team scores shown* *No scores with Team scores not shown* *No scores with status disabled* vs *Show scores* i would bet my bottom dollar that show scores would win. The best way to do it is to make a poll for "Show scores vs Dont show scores" and then afterwards make another poll of sub categorys depending on what wins.
[B]Don't force people to play the game the way YOU like. It's none of your business. Do you think in soccer they wouldn't show how many goals an individual player has scored in a game? In baseball how many runs a player has? In football who's scored the touchdowns?
Things that don't directly harm gameplay shouldn't even be up for discussion like this. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine, but the object of the game is to starve the enemy for resources and to control the map, not to kill the most number of enemies, so fragging a mob is more akin to someone making a good pass in football than actually scoring. Taking out a res node or a mini-base would more equate that.
<b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b>
So if Flay's gonna go by public opinion as determined by this poll, then he should put up a scoreboard. This should not be a controversial statement.
Personally, I fall on the pro-scoreboard side of the fence. I would ask my opponents a question:
Do you think showing the scores will in fact hurt the team?
This is the only justification I can come up with. Honestly I don't see it. With a scoreboard, you hit tab occasionally and see how you're doing. It's a quick and easy estimate of fighting ability in the game. That's all.
I really doubt seeing a score will make someone "rambo," and furthermore, I doubt having a couple guys out alone scouting and knifing rogue RTs is gonna hurt the marine team. Finally, 95% of the time if you issue someone a direct request, they'll help you out.
Frankly, as a marine, I check status in console every so often, and the time I spend opening, typing, and hunting through the list for my name is probably more injurious to the team than a quick look at the scoreboard.
To conclude: I deny the proposition that being able to see your score will reduce teamwork. I don't see it happening in 1.04 on the alien team, and I will eat one of my various hats if it happened in 1.1 if marines could see score a little easier than a "status".
I will repeat the oft-made suggestion and note that this seems to be a prime candidate for a server variable.
why the scores arent shown? to remove the solo fraghunting?
i dont think this will help anyone in anything <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
almost sounds absurd that this would somehow magically make teamwork any better...
if player doesnt realise that team before indivituals, then they should go back playing unreal or something <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
yeah... my english sucks big time.. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
cheers
mystiqq <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nope that's not true, I know it seems likely but it's simply not correct. It's not logically correct to assume that.
When conducting a poll like this when answers overlap it is not correct, infact it is very wrong, to add up the options like
you're doing. For the simple fact that you can not assume that if someones option had not been present he would have voted
for the other option with which you combined the first. The point is proven by Twisted Master's post. Therefor not allowing
this assumption one can ONLY look at which individual option has the more votes. This is basic Social Science where these polls
are used all the time. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Incitatus, its in my opinion that your wrong. If we were to start the poll over and split no scores to *No scores with Team scores shown* *No scores with Team scores not shown* *No scores with status disabled* vs *Show scores* i would bet my bottom dollar that show scores would win. The best way to do it is to make a poll for "Show scores vs Dont show scores" and then afterwards make another poll of sub categorys depending on what wins. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I almost agree, there is a certain probability that it is true.
But as I stated it is not a logically correct assumption. Therefore
we can not use it as fact or base ANY conclusions on it. A better
poll would indeed have been, 2 options; scores(with or without certain limitations)
and no scores at all. But that's just hypothetical. And as I stated
I think the polls were formulated like this for a reason.
Saying 60% wants this or that is WRONG. We can not deduce that as fact with the current
poll. Anyone saying that is talking ****. It might be true it might be untrue we have no idea and
can not deduce anything of the sort from this poll.
The only thing this poll tells us is that of the 4 alternatives presented.
No scores is the favorite.
<b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG. How many times do I have to say it.
This statement is false. Or to be more precise the poster has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA whether it is true or false.
ok I give up :/
Why can't you guys listen to someone who has studied this stuff for 2 years :/
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize I could twist the results in the exact opposite direction and say a majority of voters(566) perfer scores to be hidden. That's only if I use your logic, though.
.. but it isnt. you could take out a locked hive alone, if no marine jumped trought the pg and get no kill at all. Have you helped more than that guy thats eating random rambos that are doing the same? Yes. Do you have a better score? No. So there's no reason the scoreboard should be in.
====
Why take it out? Because some ppl WILL rambo for their score. You can say they should go play another game but they won't. If taking out the scoreboard on pubs gets you 1 less rambo every 5 games, it has helped.
====
In clanplay it shouldn't really matter, so you can just leave it in.
I was clear that I was discussing only the population of people that have voted, so that isn't the issue. Scores or no-scores is an exhaustive and exclusive listing of the possibilities. This is a binary thing, so neither is that the issue.
I suppose you can try to make an argument that a person who doesn't get his or her specific subdivision of score-showing would prefer no-scores to showing the "wrong" scores. And to that extent, you're correct: I cannot be 100% certain that more people prefer the showing of scores, period, to no-scores.
But come <b>on</b>, how likely is it that <b>over one hundred</b> of the people who voted for the various score-showing options would change their mind to no-scores if they didn't get their pet option? It's a rock-solid safe assumption to make that more of <b>those who have voted</b> prefer scores to no-scores.
Arr. Resisting the urge for a few jabs here.
Suffice to say: your objection has been noted and answered.
Your limp appeals to authority have fallen on deaf ears, as they should have. Oooh golly you studied it for two years. Wow. I've studied Victorian English literature for several years, but if I said George Elliot was a man, people would be right to disregard me.
Edit to answer robke: you think a scoreboard will actually hurt teams, I disagree. We're unlikely to convince each other. I think the easy answer is to make a server variable.
Remove all scores. There is only one end to a round. Either you win, or you lose. Score mean nothing in the end, I've seen many games end where the Marines actually had a higher kill count than the aliens, yet the aliens win. Additionally, showing kills for the aliens make's some players less willing to take risks, and as such won't support or help thier team in offences/defences. How many people do you see use Xenocide when 3 hives go up? Not many generally. I love to use it however, especialy when I hear some vigorous armory-lovin going on.
rboke, Not sure what your trying to say. How is a marine who didnt jump through a phase gate to the locked hive... and got no kills helping the team :/. I may be wrong since I dont totally grasp what your saying in the reply.
QuixotesGhost, How? I dont see how you would be able to turn the poll against us like that... pls explain your reasoning.
To put it at its simplest:
option A: "remove all scores" --> "event A"
option B: "leave at least 1 score" --> counter-event to A
both make up the set of all possibilites, thus:
frequency of A + frequency of B = all voters
It does NOT matter of how many other events B consists and whether they overlap or not. We regard ONLY "no scores" <--> "at least one score" which exclude each other. And both together comprise ALL possibilities, because there is no other option (how could it?). That means that both together make up all voters.
So "100% - Probability of event A" = Probability of event B
--> 60% want at least one score to be shown.
Whether B can be divided up does not matter. You can divide A up as well. It does not matter whether you sum up all the other options, it's just that the excluded option of A is the counter-option, thus making up all the other possibilities.
As simple as that.
<b>A majority of the voters would prefer scores be on the scoreboard.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And a majority of the voters do not want marines to have the scores visible.
And a majority of the voters wants a change.
Since we currently have alien only scores, and the majority wants a change and it doesn't include showing marine scores, the logical solution would be to remove alien scores. *grin*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally, I fall on the pro-scoreboard side of the fence. I would ask my opponents a question:
Do you think showing the scores will in fact hurt the team?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, I do. If people are pre-occupied with their own scoring, this isn't the game for them. Scoring is an indicator of alien killed, it has nothing to do with winning or loosing the game. the guy who goes around and build res towers and protects those from aliens and welds them helps the team a lot more than what the one who runs around radomly and racks up kills does. It just focuses peoples priority on the wrong things.
I ask you why you think not showing the scores hurts the team?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly, as a marine, I check status in console every so often, and the time I spend opening, typing, and hunting through the list for my name is probably more injurious to the team than a quick look at the scoreboard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then disable the status message or just don't increase the values of kill/deaths when someone dies. No more ability to check score, no more problem with people spending time using status.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will repeat the oft-made suggestion and note that this seems to be a prime candidate for a server variable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nay, server variables should be reserved for important things, making every little disputed item a variable will set a bad trend.
So if Flay's gonna go by public opinion as determined by this poll, then he should put up a scoreboard. This should not be a controversial statement.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this poll is actually going to do any sense, the second category isn't logical as it includes tourneymode. Tourneymode can have scores it won't do anything. The issue is rather on casual play.
Where: (considering the 2nd category is useless)
397 people don't want scores as marines
305 people dont want scores as aliens
167 people WANT marine scores
158 people want alien scores
397vs167 for marine scores (regardless of aliens)
305vs158 for aliens scores (regardless of marines)
305vs167 for both
This poll is horribly missing: we don't want scores except in tourneymode (and eventually we only want marine scores but that would be horribly horrible)
Considering this useless (in my eyes) category has been put, I suggest making a new poll. As they might have voted for no scores as well as with scores.
Keep in mind that one attractive aspect of NS is the fact you are NOT looking after frags. Adding a scoreboard would negate this and put a much more competition between marines. (fragstealer etc..)