I'm still waiting to hear who were those players who had difficulty throwing their welders "far away" because its so difficult to axe a harvester.
What was the change made to do with welders and throwing them away?
He is trying to bait me into talking about a proposed idea I had put forward awhile back. Is that what you want to talk about @Aeglos? Does it have anything to do with B322 or metab?
I can't even copy and paste my old idea in here. It is lost on discord somewhere. I could rewrite it but that is too much effort for an idea that few people liked anyways.
Edit: Nope. It wasn't what I thought it was about. I don't know why I was pinged on that one then.
I made the change, and I don't think it's stupid at all.
The reasoning behind the change is to fix the much worse problem of picking up welders when you *meant* to drop your weapon. ...
But the bigger reason why I made these changes is because while I was fixing a bug related to picking up a welder when the axe was equipped (it would result in you switching to your pistol, instead of the welder), I asked in our discord, just to get a feel of the room, what people thought about making it so that the welder won't autopickup if the axe is equipped (axe does more damage to harvester, and it's kind of a pain to have to toss it far away while axing a harvester, would be nice to be able to just drop it at your feet).
= a0 bite-bite-para kills just got a whole lot faster
Edit: Also, do I really want to stop right-strafing every time I parasite? To compensate I'd have to temporarily switch my forward movement to right-strafe (middle finger from 'w' to 'd'), but then I'm not moving forward. Wanting to move forward and strafe right at the same time is not an uncommon input requirement - even while parasiting.
All of this should just be configurable. Keep the abilities tied to weapon slots for those who use the current scheme, but allow people to bind weapon slot functions to particular keys on a case-by-case basis. The devs can use their new scheme as the default - no problem.
I know image posts are discouraged on this board, but this mimics every opinion I've read with regards to keeping metab as a weapon slot:
I also hate it when people have preferences instead of accepting what I deem is best without argument. Come on man don't just dismiss peoples views coz xkcd memes.
@devs: Have you not learned, that making things configurable saves all issues like these?
Have you not realized yet that making something configurable requires a lot more work? Like GUI, config persistence and app logic changes?
The real issue of having too many config parameters starts with QA. Every option that affects game play needs to be tested every single time any code regarding to that aspect of the game changes which increases the time needed for testing exponentially with the amount of config parameters. This is the very reason I detest releasing a new version of ns2+, every single change has to be tested with at least 10 different config setups increasing the time needed for a ns2+ release candidate test to at least 1 hour.
Of course automated testing could resolve that problem to some degree but writing a proper testing framework from stretch at this point would takes at least 100+ hours.
This is why it is a shame that it is now something that falls under the QA requirements of UWE rather than being maintained by Mendasp who had no such requirements. Barring a few hiccups here and there it did the job 99.5% of the time to an acceptable standard along even with its rather rapid development.
I can imagine it's only begrudgingly that UWE even maintain it at all, but since it is seen as a bare essential it probably has to be.
I'm still waiting to hear who were those players who had difficulty throwing their welders "far away" because its so difficult to axe a harvester.
What was the change made to do with welders and throwing them away?
He is trying to bait me into talking about a proposed idea I had put forward awhile back. Is that what you want to talk about @Aeglos? Does it have anything to do with B322 or metab?
I can't even copy and paste my old idea in here. It is lost on discord somewhere. I could rewrite it but that is too much effort for an idea that few people liked anyways.
Edit: Nope. It wasn't what I thought it was about. I don't know why I was pinged on that one then.
Because you were trying to pass it off as an innocuous change. I just brought up just another.
Don't worry, I hate your welder + axe merger too. It just didn't succeed.
Shrug, have to try it to know for sure, but 'R' and '1' seems a pain to use while moving. The ideal is of course the extra mouse buttons, but its yet another hardware advantage.
I know image posts are discouraged on this board, but this mimics every opinion I've read with regards to keeping metab as a weapon slot:
I also hate it when people have preferences instead of accepting what I deem is best without argument. Come on man don't just dismiss peoples views coz xkcd memes.
Hey man, feel free to have preferences. But if you had a preference to have to press the keys C R O U C H in that order to crouch, should the game really support that?
Hey man, feel free to have preferences. But if you had a preference to have to press the keys C R O U C H in that order to crouch, should the game really support that?
This is a nice attempt at a reductio ad absurdum, but the practical difference seems obvious:
Scatter's preference is essentially the preservation of input mechanics that have existed throughout the majority of the NS lifespan and which have become entrenched for many players, thus passing a relevancy test of sorts. The hypothetical you cite is patently absurd and resembles nothing ever seen before.
I think the good faith reading of his post is that he was looking for a response that was structured as an informative argument as opposed to a pithy xkcd reference.
Then again, the good faith reading of your post is that you're just cracking jokes, but that didn't stop me from making this one in response.
Let us continue this path of orbital decay until we collapse into absolute despair. Forward!
I don't know how I was trying to pass this change off as innocuous. @Aeglos
I am of the opinion that NS2 should change slowly. I think changes like this metab change should be more considerate of people who have been playing for a long time. My point is that no change in NS2 is innocuous. Anything the devs do will upset somebody and this should be considered.
In this case I think the value of the metab change will be miniscule for the rookies and huge for the veterans who use it. I remember UWE talking about this change so months ago when I still participated in balance chat or playtesting. I didn't really speak up then because it wasn't a big issue to me, and I didn't think it would ever get here.
I still don't care about it much. UWE made their decision. It does not affect me personally. I think it may be the wrong decision, but whatever. I only spoke up in this thread to try and point out that no change is meaningless, that every change no matter how small will probably upset somebody.
I know image posts are discouraged on this board, but this mimics every opinion I've read with regards to keeping metab as a weapon slot:
I also hate it when people have preferences instead of accepting what I deem is best without argument. Come on man don't just dismiss peoples views coz xkcd memes.
Hey man, feel free to have preferences. But if you had a preference to have to press the keys C R O U C H in that order to crouch, should the game really support that?
I don't know how I was trying to pass this change off as innocuous. @Aeglos
I am of the opinion that NS2 should change slowly. I think changes like this metab change should be more considerate of people who have been playing for a long time. My point is that no change in NS2 is innocuous. Anything the devs do will upset somebody and this should be considered.
In this case I think the value of the metab change will be miniscule for the rookies and huge for the veterans who use it. I remember UWE talking about this change so months ago when I still participated in balance chat or playtesting. I didn't really speak up then because it wasn't a big issue to me, and I didn't think it would ever get here.
I still don't care about it much. UWE made their decision. It does not affect me personally. I think it may be the wrong decision, but whatever. I only spoke up in this thread to try and point out that no change is meaningless, that every change no matter how small will probably upset somebody.
My apologies. I read it as people will get upset over anything so UWE can't do anything if they care.
Hey man, feel free to have preferences. But if you had a preference to have to press the keys C R O U C H in that order to crouch, should the game really support that?
Agreed. Completely absurd. To make that comparison is insultingly silly. Quickkeys offer an extra degree of simplicity, sure. But weaponslots are a thing that has existed since the dawn of time, and suggesting that literally typing out actions you want your player to perform is somehow equivalant, even in a "making a point through exaggeration" way is just moronic. Nobody's being catered to unreasonably by not removing this from the game. So he can fuck right off with that.
Frankly, this is the type of design decision that should have happened the moment metabolize was introduced into vanilla, rather than 4 fucking years later. If devs didn't consider it back then they shouldn't have kept themselves open to withholding that option years later. The devs should have decided conclusively way back then, or during compmod development, if the weaponslot was necessary - and afterwards it should have been considered a done decision.
At the very least, weaponslot should have only been removed in the first few builds after it was initially introduced. Even then it would have been a controversial decision. But now? Now it's absolutely ludicrous.
And it's not about preserving the old ways from ns1. UWE gave people a choice to do it one way or the other, and gave them 4 years to get used to it (if they weren't already) and like their choice and become better and better with it and enjoy it more and more. Now they're throwing people under the bus if they remove that choice.
Save decisions like this for NS3 rather than piss off some of the userbase. I'm not sure how this effects anyone advocating for its removal in any positive way, other than seeing an inconsequential (to them, not to me and others) design decision they think is "right" make its way into the game - which has no positive effect in of itself. This is fucking stupid. I don't know why this is at all important to anyone, apart from those who use the weaponslot method and want it in the game.
This may be a "right" decision from purely a game-design perspective - but that's if and only if you ignore everything else. i.e. It may have been the right call 4 years ago or years in the future for NS3. But if they're making the call now, it's not right. Cause they're not thinking about the way people already use the game and already enjoy the game for so many years.
If anyone actually wants this, ask yourself "how does this removing this make ns2 better for literally anybody in any significant way" before advocating for something that will make it worse for a part of the game's userbase. Don't impose your will onto others if it's ultimately inconsequential to you. I understand that we want to deliver the best possible game to the newcomers. But you're kidding yourselves if any of them would care AT ALL if you didn't remove this. A decision like this will not effect whether a newcomer plays this game, how much they play it, how much they enjoy it, and whether or not they will continue to play this game or recommend it to others.
...But it certainly might for me - at least, the enjoyment part (for fading - traditionally my most enjoyed role) and maybe whether or not I would recommend it. While I shouldn't trivialize the change I've been criticizing - I understand that it's not the most consequential decision in the history of ns2. But it's one of the most unnecessarily/needlessly punitive - albeit, only to a minority of players. (but fuck us, right?)
@d0ped0g You make a good point that it is really late to make these kind of gameplay changes this late in development. It makes me wonder if they are planning something to get more people to play / buy the game here soon. It would make sense for them to make the game easier to get into if they were planning an event of some sort.
@d0ped0g You make a good point that it is really late to make these kind of gameplay changes this late in development. It makes me wonder if they are planning something to get more people to play / buy the game here soon. It would make sense for them to make the game easier to get into if they were planning an event of some sort.
Tbh, I don't think even a "relaunch" event would make this appropriate.
And this change doesn't make it "easier to get into". Not even slightly.
Tbh, I don't think even a "relaunch" event would make this appropriate.
And this change doesn't make it "easier to get into". Not even slightly.
It does clear up some of the confusion that new players experience, namely the players who evolve into fade and wave their arms around using metabolize thinking it's going to damage marines.
There will probably be more attempts at streamlining the player experience if a relaunch is in the game's future.
Tbh, I don't think even a "relaunch" event would make this appropriate.
And this change doesn't make it "easier to get into". Not even slightly.
It does clear up some of the confusion that new players experience, namely the players who evolve into fade and wave their arms around using metabolize thinking it's going to damage marines.
There will probably be more attempts at streamlining the player experience if a relaunch is in the game's future.
They're going to run into the same problem if it's on shift-only. So who gives a shit.
It's a hypothetical non-problem that only exists in people's minds. They will learn pretty quickly that it doesn't damage marines, when they use it and... it doesn't damage marines. Or when they read the quicktips.
Unnecessarily coddling new players over something they don't need coddled over years into a game's lifecycle is fucking stupid. If they wanted this streamlined into a single option, don't do it 4 years down the chain. Do it at the start and don't decide to later just because they had a moment of streamlined game-design hindsight. That's some fucking grade a bullshit to pull.
This game has been kept alive by dedicated regulars, especially in the smaller communities like Australasia. The game has even died here many times, but springs back to life on a seasonal basis because the older players seed. Older players like me. We literally provide the base of players that allow the newer ones to not encounter a complete ghost-town. If people like us didn't stick around, and stick around for years, newbies would have nowhere to play.
The only people being majorly effected , or effected in any remotely meaningful way, are these very regulars. (albeit, only a minority. Although a majority likely use metab for travel) I'm not asking to hijack the game design for our sake. I'm just asking for the devs to actually be considerate of this reality and not just up and remove shit that matters a lot to some of us when it will have practically zero negative effect on a new player's enjoyment or anyone else's. It's needlessly punitive. Nothing is gained.
It's not as if I want to keep the devs from delivering the most streamlined experience they can for the newbies. But that can't be literally the only consideration. The pros only outweigh the cons if you literally disregard the cons entirely. Because the pros are so minuscule that, when you really look at the practical effect it will have and are realistic about it, it doesn't add up to anything that will effect sales/retention/enjoyability at all.
There will probably be more attempts at streamlining the player experience if a relaunch is in the game's future.
And I will be for this if it doesn't unnecessarily take away from some people's enjoyability. Fading is demanding and something you get into a rhythm of. The movement and the corresponding keyboard+mouse actions is like a dance. The proposed change is the equivalent of stomping on somebody's feet after years of learning one dance routine, and then forcing them to learn another one with a completely different rhythm with a broken foot.
It would be a bit like introducing a penalty for strafe keys when walljumping, because "why do you need to strafe when you can just press one button". It wouldn't necessarily be "harder" but you'd break peoples rhythm unnecessarily.
Tbh I'm pretty goddamn pissed that this is even being considered. Even more pissed that this is presumably going to go into the game. If this is really for the new players, you're massively exaggerating how much it would actually matter to them. It would not matter at all, and you're kidding yourselves that it would. You're massively exaggerating how dumb newbies are if you think they really need something like this or else they'll encounter so much confusion that they won't enjoy themselves or won't even play. It's exactly this type of coddling attitude that was responsible for so many fucking dumb design decisions that held up this game's development. This is a hypothetical non-problem. Streamlining for the sake of streamlining's sake is fucking stupid, cause nothing is really gained here, and you're just pissing people off by removing options that have become a permanent part of their playstyle. Nobody's not going to not play the game if you don't remove this. So don't fucking remove this.
Devs - Did you even bother to ask around about this apart from the playtesters? Or did you just up and decide "we're going to remove this. Myself and the people I know don't use this. At least, I assume none of them use it. Even if they do, who cares. The other way is better. Because that's the one I prefer."
Again, I'm not advocating for removing shift. Who fucking cares if myself, and other people, prefer it this way. Let us do it this way.
Imagine if, 5 years after the gorgeous update, they put bellyslide on weaponslot, and turned shift into a build-menu because it would "streamline" things more for gorge and not have a weird menu you access via weaponslot. This might have even been a good design decision if you did it like that from the get-go. Maybe at least - there are certainly arguments for it. But do it right the first time. Or at least within the first few months of feature introduction. Rather than let people enjoy it the way it is.
And that's using gorge as an example. A non-demanding slow-paced support class. It's even worse for fades because it's a lot more fast-paced. And this isn't some random balance change like "oh I have to get used to fade having 10 less hp now - however will i cope!". This is a fundamental change of the inputs you need to use for a demanding lifeform that benefits from years of practice with those inputs.
The only difference is that it's only a minority of players who use weaponslot. But who gives a shit about us, right? As long as the people who only use shift aren't effected? And as long as you can tell yourselves there's some abstract benefit to it when the reality is nobody, not even the newbies, will enjoy the game any less if its kept...
This thing you're removing: All it is, is an option. Not some massive problem, or even a problem at all. It's a dumb-ass restrictive change doing it at this point.
The funny thing is, even after railing against it so much - in retrospect - if the question had been posed to only have a quick-key for metab when the feature was first introduced.... I would have probably said yes.
Well... maybe. I certainly wouldn't have had a problem with it.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I think you're vastly underestimating how poorly the lowest skill bracket plays the game, I don't know if you exclude yourself from them but I often see players commit the most rookie mistakes over your "hypothetical non-problems", NS2 as a game doesn't do a very good job at presenting useful information to the player or conveying what a player should be a doing at a given moment, hence the massive disparity of gameplay norms between veteran players and fledgling ones.
Now I am not entirely indifferent on the change because I acknowledge and have seen the problem happen in real time before, but essentially this argument boils down to certain veterans wanting to maintain the current gameplay as it's what they have grown accustomed to after all these years, claiming they're the lifeblood of the game and that any major change will kill the game for them (aka b250) new player experience be damned.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice, as well as UWE is theirs, I personally don't see the value of not changing course and going down with the ship like so many others seem to want to do.
Oh please. The problem with rookie fades is not that they use metabolise as an attack. They will learn that pretty quick. The problem is that they go in straight lines just like their skulks. It has nothing to do with metabolise.
@Nintendows So, your proposed bindings? Nothing yet?
I think you're vastly underestimating how poorly the lowest skill bracket plays the game, I don't know if you exclude yourself from them but I often see players commit the most rookie mistakes over your "hypothetical non-problems", NS2 as a game doesn't do a very good job at presenting useful information to the player or conveying what a player should be a doing at a given moment, hence the massive disparity of gameplay norms between veteran players and fledgling ones.
I'm not underestimating shit. I know how bad rookies are. But they're also so not completely fucking braindead that something like this is impactful on their enjoyability/retention. Worry about shit like ground-skulks/fades. Aliens that charge into 10 marines by themselves. Crap like that. Things that actually mean something.
These problems though? I think you're trumping up these problems in your imagination. Blowing them waaaaaaaay out of proportion. That's why I call them "hypothetical non-problems". You're coddling them way too much if you're advocating for this destructive change that they simply will not give a shit about. The hypothetical newbie that you think this will impact in any remotely meaningful way doesn't actually exist in reality.
Now I am not entirely indifferent on the change because I acknowledge and have seen the problem happen in real time before, but essentially this argument boils down to certain veterans wanting to maintain the current gameplay as it's what they have grown accustomed to after all these years, claiming they're the lifeblood of the game and that any major change will kill the game for them (aka b250) new player experience be damned.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice, as well as UWE is theirs, I personally don't see the value of not changing course and going down with the ship like so many others seem to want to do.
I'm not overstating mine or veterans importance. We should think about newbies too. But you can fuck right off with that "new players be damned" bullshit you're projecting onto me. I'm not damning them to anything. That's the point. Newbies don't give a shit about this. Yet some vets do. And they do a lot.
SO WHY ARE WE DOING THIS. It should be pretty fucking simple.
I only point out the importance of vets because it's so needlessly punitive to some of them. As I said... i do NOT want to hijack game development for our sake, but if there's no real good reason - then think about the fucking practical implications before throwing people under the bus.
This isn't a brand new game or a game with a decade left in it's life.
Not wanting to remove this option isn't emblematic of "going down with the ship" because of a refusal to change course. I'm not some old fogey stuck in his ways trying to stand in the way of progress. That is such a fucking massive exaggeration and completely throws away any nuance in what I'm trying to get across. If you wanna frame me as someone who wants to hold the game back for his own selfish reasons, that's pretty goddamn insulting. It bears repeating: I'm not forcing anybody to play the game my way. Not you, or newbies. I'm advocating for options. The people advocating for this change are the ones forcing people to do it "their way".
I want this game to thrive for years to come - as many years as it has got left in it. We should be optimistic, but also realistic about that. This game can still grow and attract more new players and have them stick around. However, changes like this are completely meaningless to that end.
Sure, this game could always be better, and we should continue to make it better for newbs and vets alike. But lets not forget: THE GAME IS GOOD. It is already a damn fucking good game.
Sure, we should continue to improve it, but also consider the reality of the playerbase and how the game sustains itself before considering destructive changes that have very little measurable merit. The hypothetical newbie you're coddling that will not play this game if they encounter a weaponslot metabolize does not exist. Anyone who seriously thinks that has disappeared up their own ass intellectualizing themselves into that opinion. So please climb back down from out of your buttholes and back into reality.
By all means: please, continue to make gameplay changes. Ones that are actually a net-positive when you consider all the impacts it has.
The things that ns2's survival will hinge on are not things like this. It is the things that will put people into populated servers quicker. Deal with server overflow in small communities. Reduce unbalanced games. Teach people how to play. (rather than coddle people over non-problems)
On that note: I'm also pretty fucked off that this match seeding feature hasn't been introduced to throw a lifeline to the struggling communities that can barely sustain a server during peak times. It's a wonder that we can even get games going and the community has to really pull together and be dedicated to seeding and shit to make it happen. Exactly how long ago was this promised? The thread back in June 2017 said it supposed to be in Build 315 but was cut. If it wasn't ready, that's understandable. But we're here 7 builds since it was supposed to be released, and the game could be thriving much more in locations where it's practically dead. It's not as if these features haven't been requested since the dawn of fucking time but we dicked around arguing about matchmaking for years and years and years and years and missed out on a lot of player retention because of it. What exactly has held it up so much that it has been cut from 7 releases, and probably this upcoming one too? I get that these things take time, but if it was set to release way back then then cut, it shouldn't come an entire year later. It should have been 318 at most. WTF is going on...
And on the topic of teaching people how to play: How long was spent by devs getting rid of this feature. Fixing bugs. Debating it. (not a lot probably) Playtesting it. How long?
How many basic tutorial videos could they have made in that time? Even a single one would had a MUCH more positive impact for new players than dicking around with dumbass changes like this - something that has no real impact at all on them, yet a clearly destructive side-effect for some of the playerbase.
NS2 as a game doesn't do a very good job at presenting useful information to the player or conveying what a player should be a doing at a given moment, hence the massive disparity of gameplay norms between veteran players and fledgling ones.
It's almost as if: if this is a problem (it is) they should work on THAT. Work on methods to teach the noobs the key areas where they're having trouble with. Rather than do things like arbitrarily make destructive changes to one of the least confusing elements of ns2: the fact that metab can be accessed via weaponslot or quickkey. I'm not saying don't simplify and streamline where it's worthwhile. But this is one of the most ridiculous exercises in pointless coddling I've ever seen.
Oh please. The problem with rookie fades is not that they use metabolise as an attack.
It's not the problem, but it's a problem.
I'd even say a higher priority noobtrap is them holding down blink.
That doesn't mean we still shouldn't fix other issues, however.
We're looking at baitball, we're looking at powernode blueprints confusing rookies, we're looking at Xeno, we're looking at all of it.
It appears this change might upset some because they are used to something that should've been fixed long ago. That's really unfortunate, and maybe there's a solution out there like allowing for an option somewhere in the menu for those who feel like they cannot instinctively use their movement modifier key instead as intended. But full disclosure : that's not going to happen this patch, and that's not going to stop us from making improvements like those listed above, even if they require adjusting how one plays.
Thanks for the feedback provided by everyone here on the matter.
I look forward to hearing back from some of you who did not make the public PT, after you get to try it out in game.
@devs: Have you not learned, that making things configurable saves all issues like these?
Have you not realized yet that making something configurable requires a lot more work? Like GUI, config persistence and app logic changes?
The real issue of having too many config parameters starts with QA. Every option that affects game play needs to be tested every single time any code regarding to that aspect of the game changes which increases the time needed for testing exponentially with the amount of config parameters. This is the very reason I detest releasing a new version of ns2+, every single change has to be tested with at least 10 different config setups increasing the time needed for a ns2+ release candidate test to at least 1 hour.
Of course automated testing could resolve that problem to some degree but writing a proper testing framework from stretch at this point would takes at least 100+ hours.
isn't this a great way to utilize the hotfix extension? if there's some edge case where one person discovers having some obscure option on with a new feature, you can instantly push out a hotfix to fix the incompatibility or, if you can't, just disable the new feature. with that said, it sounds pretty silly to use this as a response to a somebody asking for a bindable hotkey for a preexisting function.
maybe there's a solution out there like allowing for an option somewhere in the menu for those who feel like they cannot instinctively use their movement modifier key instead as intended.
I would stop bitching if I knew for sure that this was coming in the next few patches, at the absolute max. But it's clear that people simply don't give a shit about it as long as it only effects some people.
And using words like "fix" just make me even more worried, because you're treating it like a fucking bug. It's not a fix, it's a change. You prefer it the "streamlined" way with less options. But that doesn't mean you're "fixing" it. And as long as it's being framed that way I sure as shit don't have a lot of confidence that you're going to add a menu option for a minority of players that adds an option to play an "unfixed" version of ns2.
After reminding myself last night about the practical reasons why I strongly prefer this change, and how this will completely throw my fading style under the bus, I will probably flat out stop fading as a result. I'm not exaggerating how much this effects me. I could write a lot more about this, and probably will before the day is done.
It's a destructive change for some. Yet, it has no real impact on the people who are advocating for it, or the people they are advocating it for. Be realistic. Be fair.
Nobody else gives a shit. Except on someone else's behalf. But that person doesn't give a shit either.
The only people who actually care and this will impact in any meaningful way are the ones who are getting shafted.
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
I have on a number of occasions used the wrong weapon as an alien simply because there is almost no visual indication of the alien weapon you have selectedselected.
I have on a number of occasions used the wrong weapon as an alien simply because there is almost no visual indication of the alien weapon you have selectedselected.
I find this extremely dubious tbh. This isn't a problem if you're only using shift, because there's no need to even change weaponslot. If you're not using weaponslot, it will not change from swipe. For newbies, as soon as they know the quickkey is there, they can also "not use weaponslot" and thus never encounter that problem. This is only a problem if they don't know about the quickkey. And "not knowing about the quickkey" isn't really a problem as they will either be directed by quicktips, or inevitably stumble onto it being that the shift key has a purpose for every alien class, as well as a purpose in practically every FPS in the history of FPS.
Also, this is a issue for literally every weaponslot ability. Also, out of all weaponslot abilities, metab by far has the strongest visual indication imo. So, for that reason, and the other (if you dont use weaponslot, it doesn't happen), this is one of the least likely abilities to accidentally misuse because you didn't realize it was equipped. Parasite is the real issue here. 99 times out of 100, if a player has accidentally used the wrong weaponslot ability, it's parasite. Worry more about real problems please.
On this note, so long as visual cues (e.g. playermodel, ability-icon) are a little insufficient for determining the equipped weaponslot in some cases, faint auditory cues could be added to help the user know if they've equipped certain things. (e.g. a sound effect that plays in the background - like static noise or something - but obviously something less annoying)
I think this is only really necessary for parasite (and maybe xenocide), being that there's literally no visual cue & no quickkey & much more problematic results of misuse. (accidental parasite usually means dead skulk) I don't think it is necessary for metabolize as it's probably the least problematic of the bunch for the reasons I've already said.
However, if adding an auditory cue makes weaponslot metab more appealing to the advocates of this change coming up with all of these non-problems, then please take this suggestion if it will mean this will stay in the game. I'm not sure why people seldom saying "oh, I have meta equipped" really matters compared to the type of issues that weaponslot-meta users will face when it is removed... but whatever.
As long as people are coming up with these complete non-problems, can you all actually ask yourself "does this actually matter to me, or anybody I am speaking for in any meaningful way". If that answer is no... don't advocate for this feature's removal. Because it's needlessly punitive to the people who it DOES matter to.
EDIT: I'm wrong about there being no visual cues for parasite. The crosshair is the cue.
I have on a number of occasions used the wrong weapon as an alien simply because there is almost no visual indication of the alien weapon you have selectedselected.
I think this is the greater problem. I'm not sure whether this fade change is being promoted as a fade-specific solution to misclicking, but if so it seems like a symptomatic one, not one that addresses the problem at its source.
Comments
What was the change made to do with welders and throwing them away?
He is trying to bait me into talking about a proposed idea I had put forward awhile back. Is that what you want to talk about @Aeglos? Does it have anything to do with B322 or metab?
I can't even copy and paste my old idea in here. It is lost on discord somewhere. I could rewrite it but that is too much effort for an idea that few people liked anyways.
Edit: Nope. It wasn't what I thought it was about. I don't know why I was pinged on that one then.
So about your proposed bindings?
Ideally you could rebind keys per lifeform but for each I'd would go with..
Skulk: Primary = Bite, Secondary = Leap, Reload = Parasite, Weapon Slot/Action 1 = Xenocide
Gorge:Primary = Spit, Secondary = HealSpray Reload = Bilebomb, Weapon Slot/Action 1 = Babbler ball, Weapon Slot/Action 2 = Gorge menu
Lerk: Primary = Bite, Secondary = Spikes, Reload = Umbra, Weapon Slot/Action 1 = Spores
Fade: Primary = Swipe, Secondary = Blink, Reload = Stab
Onos: Primary = Gore, Secondary = Bone Shield, Reload = Stomp
Standard keys for the rest of the abilities.
Edit: Also, do I really want to stop right-strafing every time I parasite? To compensate I'd have to temporarily switch my forward movement to right-strafe (middle finger from 'w' to 'd'), but then I'm not moving forward. Wanting to move forward and strafe right at the same time is not an uncommon input requirement - even while parasiting.
All of this should just be configurable. Keep the abilities tied to weapon slots for those who use the current scheme, but allow people to bind weapon slot functions to particular keys on a case-by-case basis. The devs can use their new scheme as the default - no problem.
I also hate it when people have preferences instead of accepting what I deem is best without argument. Come on man don't just dismiss peoples views coz xkcd memes.
This is why it is a shame that it is now something that falls under the QA requirements of UWE rather than being maintained by Mendasp who had no such requirements. Barring a few hiccups here and there it did the job 99.5% of the time to an acceptable standard along even with its rather rapid development.
I can imagine it's only begrudgingly that UWE even maintain it at all, but since it is seen as a bare essential it probably has to be.
Because you were trying to pass it off as an innocuous change. I just brought up just another.
Don't worry, I hate your welder + axe merger too. It just didn't succeed.
Shrug, have to try it to know for sure, but 'R' and '1' seems a pain to use while moving. The ideal is of course the extra mouse buttons, but its yet another hardware advantage.
Hey man, feel free to have preferences. But if you had a preference to have to press the keys C R O U C H in that order to crouch, should the game really support that?
Scatter's preference is essentially the preservation of input mechanics that have existed throughout the majority of the NS lifespan and which have become entrenched for many players, thus passing a relevancy test of sorts. The hypothetical you cite is patently absurd and resembles nothing ever seen before.
I think the good faith reading of his post is that he was looking for a response that was structured as an informative argument as opposed to a pithy xkcd reference.
Then again, the good faith reading of your post is that you're just cracking jokes, but that didn't stop me from making this one in response.
Let us continue this path of orbital decay until we collapse into absolute despair. Forward!
Nah that can't possibly work, this is unheard of and has never been attempted
NEEDS TOO MUCH TESTING
UNFEASIBLE
I am of the opinion that NS2 should change slowly. I think changes like this metab change should be more considerate of people who have been playing for a long time. My point is that no change in NS2 is innocuous. Anything the devs do will upset somebody and this should be considered.
In this case I think the value of the metab change will be miniscule for the rookies and huge for the veterans who use it. I remember UWE talking about this change so months ago when I still participated in balance chat or playtesting. I didn't really speak up then because it wasn't a big issue to me, and I didn't think it would ever get here.
I still don't care about it much. UWE made their decision. It does not affect me personally. I think it may be the wrong decision, but whatever. I only spoke up in this thread to try and point out that no change is meaningless, that every change no matter how small will probably upset somebody.
That sounds amazing, I'll make it into a mod!
My apologies. I read it as people will get upset over anything so UWE can't do anything if they care.
Agreed. Completely absurd. To make that comparison is insultingly silly. Quickkeys offer an extra degree of simplicity, sure. But weaponslots are a thing that has existed since the dawn of time, and suggesting that literally typing out actions you want your player to perform is somehow equivalant, even in a "making a point through exaggeration" way is just moronic. Nobody's being catered to unreasonably by not removing this from the game. So he can fuck right off with that.
Frankly, this is the type of design decision that should have happened the moment metabolize was introduced into vanilla, rather than 4 fucking years later. If devs didn't consider it back then they shouldn't have kept themselves open to withholding that option years later. The devs should have decided conclusively way back then, or during compmod development, if the weaponslot was necessary - and afterwards it should have been considered a done decision.
At the very least, weaponslot should have only been removed in the first few builds after it was initially introduced. Even then it would have been a controversial decision. But now? Now it's absolutely ludicrous.
And it's not about preserving the old ways from ns1. UWE gave people a choice to do it one way or the other, and gave them 4 years to get used to it (if they weren't already) and like their choice and become better and better with it and enjoy it more and more. Now they're throwing people under the bus if they remove that choice.
Save decisions like this for NS3 rather than piss off some of the userbase. I'm not sure how this effects anyone advocating for its removal in any positive way, other than seeing an inconsequential (to them, not to me and others) design decision they think is "right" make its way into the game - which has no positive effect in of itself. This is fucking stupid. I don't know why this is at all important to anyone, apart from those who use the weaponslot method and want it in the game.
This may be a "right" decision from purely a game-design perspective - but that's if and only if you ignore everything else. i.e. It may have been the right call 4 years ago or years in the future for NS3. But if they're making the call now, it's not right. Cause they're not thinking about the way people already use the game and already enjoy the game for so many years.
If anyone actually wants this, ask yourself "how does this removing this make ns2 better for literally anybody in any significant way" before advocating for something that will make it worse for a part of the game's userbase. Don't impose your will onto others if it's ultimately inconsequential to you. I understand that we want to deliver the best possible game to the newcomers. But you're kidding yourselves if any of them would care AT ALL if you didn't remove this. A decision like this will not effect whether a newcomer plays this game, how much they play it, how much they enjoy it, and whether or not they will continue to play this game or recommend it to others.
...But it certainly might for me - at least, the enjoyment part (for fading - traditionally my most enjoyed role) and maybe whether or not I would recommend it. While I shouldn't trivialize the change I've been criticizing - I understand that it's not the most consequential decision in the history of ns2. But it's one of the most unnecessarily/needlessly punitive - albeit, only to a minority of players. (but fuck us, right?)
I know, I usually buy myself a gourmet ready meal for one and a bottle of red for those nights.
Tbh, I don't think even a "relaunch" event would make this appropriate.
And this change doesn't make it "easier to get into". Not even slightly.
It does clear up some of the confusion that new players experience, namely the players who evolve into fade and wave their arms around using metabolize thinking it's going to damage marines.
There will probably be more attempts at streamlining the player experience if a relaunch is in the game's future.
They're going to run into the same problem if it's on shift-only. So who gives a shit.
It's a hypothetical non-problem that only exists in people's minds. They will learn pretty quickly that it doesn't damage marines, when they use it and... it doesn't damage marines. Or when they read the quicktips.
Unnecessarily coddling new players over something they don't need coddled over years into a game's lifecycle is fucking stupid. If they wanted this streamlined into a single option, don't do it 4 years down the chain. Do it at the start and don't decide to later just because they had a moment of streamlined game-design hindsight. That's some fucking grade a bullshit to pull.
This game has been kept alive by dedicated regulars, especially in the smaller communities like Australasia. The game has even died here many times, but springs back to life on a seasonal basis because the older players seed. Older players like me. We literally provide the base of players that allow the newer ones to not encounter a complete ghost-town. If people like us didn't stick around, and stick around for years, newbies would have nowhere to play.
The only people being majorly effected , or effected in any remotely meaningful way, are these very regulars. (albeit, only a minority. Although a majority likely use metab for travel) I'm not asking to hijack the game design for our sake. I'm just asking for the devs to actually be considerate of this reality and not just up and remove shit that matters a lot to some of us when it will have practically zero negative effect on a new player's enjoyment or anyone else's. It's needlessly punitive. Nothing is gained.
It's not as if I want to keep the devs from delivering the most streamlined experience they can for the newbies. But that can't be literally the only consideration. The pros only outweigh the cons if you literally disregard the cons entirely. Because the pros are so minuscule that, when you really look at the practical effect it will have and are realistic about it, it doesn't add up to anything that will effect sales/retention/enjoyability at all.
And I will be for this if it doesn't unnecessarily take away from some people's enjoyability. Fading is demanding and something you get into a rhythm of. The movement and the corresponding keyboard+mouse actions is like a dance. The proposed change is the equivalent of stomping on somebody's feet after years of learning one dance routine, and then forcing them to learn another one with a completely different rhythm with a broken foot.
It would be a bit like introducing a penalty for strafe keys when walljumping, because "why do you need to strafe when you can just press one button". It wouldn't necessarily be "harder" but you'd break peoples rhythm unnecessarily.
Tbh I'm pretty goddamn pissed that this is even being considered. Even more pissed that this is presumably going to go into the game. If this is really for the new players, you're massively exaggerating how much it would actually matter to them. It would not matter at all, and you're kidding yourselves that it would. You're massively exaggerating how dumb newbies are if you think they really need something like this or else they'll encounter so much confusion that they won't enjoy themselves or won't even play. It's exactly this type of coddling attitude that was responsible for so many fucking dumb design decisions that held up this game's development. This is a hypothetical non-problem. Streamlining for the sake of streamlining's sake is fucking stupid, cause nothing is really gained here, and you're just pissing people off by removing options that have become a permanent part of their playstyle. Nobody's not going to not play the game if you don't remove this. So don't fucking remove this.
Devs - Did you even bother to ask around about this apart from the playtesters? Or did you just up and decide "we're going to remove this. Myself and the people I know don't use this. At least, I assume none of them use it. Even if they do, who cares. The other way is better. Because that's the one I prefer."
Again, I'm not advocating for removing shift. Who fucking cares if myself, and other people, prefer it this way. Let us do it this way.
And that's using gorge as an example. A non-demanding slow-paced support class. It's even worse for fades because it's a lot more fast-paced. And this isn't some random balance change like "oh I have to get used to fade having 10 less hp now - however will i cope!". This is a fundamental change of the inputs you need to use for a demanding lifeform that benefits from years of practice with those inputs.
The only difference is that it's only a minority of players who use weaponslot. But who gives a shit about us, right? As long as the people who only use shift aren't effected? And as long as you can tell yourselves there's some abstract benefit to it when the reality is nobody, not even the newbies, will enjoy the game any less if its kept...
This thing you're removing: All it is, is an option. Not some massive problem, or even a problem at all. It's a dumb-ass restrictive change doing it at this point.
The funny thing is, even after railing against it so much - in retrospect - if the question had been posed to only have a quick-key for metab when the feature was first introduced.... I would have probably said yes.
Well... maybe. I certainly wouldn't have had a problem with it.
But now...
Now I am not entirely indifferent on the change because I acknowledge and have seen the problem happen in real time before, but essentially this argument boils down to certain veterans wanting to maintain the current gameplay as it's what they have grown accustomed to after all these years, claiming they're the lifeblood of the game and that any major change will kill the game for them (aka b250) new player experience be damned.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and choice, as well as UWE is theirs, I personally don't see the value of not changing course and going down with the ship like so many others seem to want to do.
@Nintendows So, your proposed bindings? Nothing yet?
I'm not underestimating shit. I know how bad rookies are. But they're also so not completely fucking braindead that something like this is impactful on their enjoyability/retention. Worry about shit like ground-skulks/fades. Aliens that charge into 10 marines by themselves. Crap like that. Things that actually mean something.
These problems though? I think you're trumping up these problems in your imagination. Blowing them waaaaaaaay out of proportion. That's why I call them "hypothetical non-problems". You're coddling them way too much if you're advocating for this destructive change that they simply will not give a shit about. The hypothetical newbie that you think this will impact in any remotely meaningful way doesn't actually exist in reality.
I'm not overstating mine or veterans importance. We should think about newbies too. But you can fuck right off with that "new players be damned" bullshit you're projecting onto me. I'm not damning them to anything. That's the point. Newbies don't give a shit about this. Yet some vets do. And they do a lot.
SO WHY ARE WE DOING THIS. It should be pretty fucking simple.
I only point out the importance of vets because it's so needlessly punitive to some of them. As I said... i do NOT want to hijack game development for our sake, but if there's no real good reason - then think about the fucking practical implications before throwing people under the bus.
This isn't a brand new game or a game with a decade left in it's life.
Not wanting to remove this option isn't emblematic of "going down with the ship" because of a refusal to change course. I'm not some old fogey stuck in his ways trying to stand in the way of progress. That is such a fucking massive exaggeration and completely throws away any nuance in what I'm trying to get across. If you wanna frame me as someone who wants to hold the game back for his own selfish reasons, that's pretty goddamn insulting. It bears repeating: I'm not forcing anybody to play the game my way. Not you, or newbies. I'm advocating for options. The people advocating for this change are the ones forcing people to do it "their way".
I want this game to thrive for years to come - as many years as it has got left in it. We should be optimistic, but also realistic about that. This game can still grow and attract more new players and have them stick around. However, changes like this are completely meaningless to that end.
Sure, this game could always be better, and we should continue to make it better for newbs and vets alike. But lets not forget: THE GAME IS GOOD. It is already a damn fucking good game.
Sure, we should continue to improve it, but also consider the reality of the playerbase and how the game sustains itself before considering destructive changes that have very little measurable merit. The hypothetical newbie you're coddling that will not play this game if they encounter a weaponslot metabolize does not exist. Anyone who seriously thinks that has disappeared up their own ass intellectualizing themselves into that opinion. So please climb back down from out of your buttholes and back into reality.
By all means: please, continue to make gameplay changes. Ones that are actually a net-positive when you consider all the impacts it has.
The things that ns2's survival will hinge on are not things like this. It is the things that will put people into populated servers quicker. Deal with server overflow in small communities. Reduce unbalanced games. Teach people how to play. (rather than coddle people over non-problems)
On that note: I'm also pretty fucked off that this match seeding feature hasn't been introduced to throw a lifeline to the struggling communities that can barely sustain a server during peak times. It's a wonder that we can even get games going and the community has to really pull together and be dedicated to seeding and shit to make it happen. Exactly how long ago was this promised? The thread back in June 2017 said it supposed to be in Build 315 but was cut. If it wasn't ready, that's understandable. But we're here 7 builds since it was supposed to be released, and the game could be thriving much more in locations where it's practically dead. It's not as if these features haven't been requested since the dawn of fucking time but we dicked around arguing about matchmaking for years and years and years and years and missed out on a lot of player retention because of it. What exactly has held it up so much that it has been cut from 7 releases, and probably this upcoming one too? I get that these things take time, but if it was set to release way back then then cut, it shouldn't come an entire year later. It should have been 318 at most. WTF is going on...
And on the topic of teaching people how to play: How long was spent by devs getting rid of this feature. Fixing bugs. Debating it. (not a lot probably) Playtesting it. How long?
How many basic tutorial videos could they have made in that time? Even a single one would had a MUCH more positive impact for new players than dicking around with dumbass changes like this - something that has no real impact at all on them, yet a clearly destructive side-effect for some of the playerbase.
It's almost as if: if this is a problem (it is) they should work on THAT. Work on methods to teach the noobs the key areas where they're having trouble with. Rather than do things like arbitrarily make destructive changes to one of the least confusing elements of ns2: the fact that metab can be accessed via weaponslot or quickkey. I'm not saying don't simplify and streamline where it's worthwhile. But this is one of the most ridiculous exercises in pointless coddling I've ever seen.
I'd even say a higher priority noobtrap is them holding down blink.
That doesn't mean we still shouldn't fix other issues, however.
We're looking at baitball, we're looking at powernode blueprints confusing rookies, we're looking at Xeno, we're looking at all of it.
It appears this change might upset some because they are used to something that should've been fixed long ago. That's really unfortunate, and maybe there's a solution out there like allowing for an option somewhere in the menu for those who feel like they cannot instinctively use their movement modifier key instead as intended. But full disclosure : that's not going to happen this patch, and that's not going to stop us from making improvements like those listed above, even if they require adjusting how one plays.
Thanks for the feedback provided by everyone here on the matter.
I look forward to hearing back from some of you who did not make the public PT, after you get to try it out in game.
isn't this a great way to utilize the hotfix extension? if there's some edge case where one person discovers having some obscure option on with a new feature, you can instantly push out a hotfix to fix the incompatibility or, if you can't, just disable the new feature. with that said, it sounds pretty silly to use this as a response to a somebody asking for a bindable hotkey for a preexisting function.
I would stop bitching if I knew for sure that this was coming in the next few patches, at the absolute max. But it's clear that people simply don't give a shit about it as long as it only effects some people.
And using words like "fix" just make me even more worried, because you're treating it like a fucking bug. It's not a fix, it's a change. You prefer it the "streamlined" way with less options. But that doesn't mean you're "fixing" it. And as long as it's being framed that way I sure as shit don't have a lot of confidence that you're going to add a menu option for a minority of players that adds an option to play an "unfixed" version of ns2.
After reminding myself last night about the practical reasons why I strongly prefer this change, and how this will completely throw my fading style under the bus, I will probably flat out stop fading as a result. I'm not exaggerating how much this effects me. I could write a lot more about this, and probably will before the day is done.
It's a destructive change for some. Yet, it has no real impact on the people who are advocating for it, or the people they are advocating it for. Be realistic. Be fair.
Nobody else gives a shit. Except on someone else's behalf. But that person doesn't give a shit either.
The only people who actually care and this will impact in any meaningful way are the ones who are getting shafted.
I find this extremely dubious tbh. This isn't a problem if you're only using shift, because there's no need to even change weaponslot. If you're not using weaponslot, it will not change from swipe. For newbies, as soon as they know the quickkey is there, they can also "not use weaponslot" and thus never encounter that problem. This is only a problem if they don't know about the quickkey. And "not knowing about the quickkey" isn't really a problem as they will either be directed by quicktips, or inevitably stumble onto it being that the shift key has a purpose for every alien class, as well as a purpose in practically every FPS in the history of FPS.
Also, this is a issue for literally every weaponslot ability. Also, out of all weaponslot abilities, metab by far has the strongest visual indication imo. So, for that reason, and the other (if you dont use weaponslot, it doesn't happen), this is one of the least likely abilities to accidentally misuse because you didn't realize it was equipped. Parasite is the real issue here. 99 times out of 100, if a player has accidentally used the wrong weaponslot ability, it's parasite. Worry more about real problems please.
On this note, so long as visual cues (e.g. playermodel, ability-icon) are a little insufficient for determining the equipped weaponslot in some cases, faint auditory cues could be added to help the user know if they've equipped certain things. (e.g. a sound effect that plays in the background - like static noise or something - but obviously something less annoying)
I think this is only really necessary for parasite (and maybe xenocide), being that there's literally no visual cue & no quickkey & much more problematic results of misuse. (accidental parasite usually means dead skulk) I don't think it is necessary for metabolize as it's probably the least problematic of the bunch for the reasons I've already said.
However, if adding an auditory cue makes weaponslot metab more appealing to the advocates of this change coming up with all of these non-problems, then please take this suggestion if it will mean this will stay in the game. I'm not sure why people seldom saying "oh, I have meta equipped" really matters compared to the type of issues that weaponslot-meta users will face when it is removed... but whatever.
As long as people are coming up with these complete non-problems, can you all actually ask yourself "does this actually matter to me, or anybody I am speaking for in any meaningful way". If that answer is no... don't advocate for this feature's removal. Because it's needlessly punitive to the people who it DOES matter to.
EDIT: I'm wrong about there being no visual cues for parasite. The crosshair is the cue.
I think this is the greater problem. I'm not sure whether this fade change is being promoted as a fade-specific solution to misclicking, but if so it seems like a symptomatic one, not one that addresses the problem at its source.