IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2017
@RevanCorana
Besides being unreasonably rude, you just aren't tracking the discussion or replies, and this seems to be a theme with you, so forgive me but I'm not going to engage with you further.
@SquishpokePOOPFACE
Yeah tying 2nd CC to tier 3 tech was my suggestion some 4 years ago. You'd have to lower the cost of a CC as well as the PL if you did that. At a minimum I'd like to see A3/W3 tied.
Worst case scenario from this is that Marines are able to turtle on two bases instead of one, but at least this provides a better point from which to come back from, and on some maps aliens would still be on 2 hives, giving even a greater chance.
And if Marines are destroying aliens, killing a CC knocks Marines back down again for a potential alien comeback.
Frankly though, on the topic of late game Marines, I'd rather start with making tier 3 tech more accessible / sooner before adjusting tied tech and subsequently nerfing alien tier 3 tech.
Onos are available on average 4 minutes before most tier 3 Marine tech.. I think that should be adjusted first somehow.
Imo exo should be buffed ala the LF exo mod we used to have. Flamer and welder exo were a lot of fun, and could be tweaked to be balanced (dual flamer was a bit op lol) It was also fun to be able to choose minigun+railgun, or flamer+railgun, or my personal favorite welder+welder
They could add the different upgrades or whatever also, so you could choose extra armor, or a higher jumpjet, or longer sprint/boost, etc. Basically just make them more fun and useful than they are now.
Then tie exo research to a second CC, and add something to mitigate the 3rd hive win thing while the 2nd CC is up. Maybe like an upgrade to the obs that would block contaminate... i dunno just thinking.... Something that would encourage marines to take a second tech point, while discouraging (and weakening) turtles.
I agree that a 2nd CC should come with a free IP (maybe have the CC cost like 10 more res)
@RevanCorana
Besides being unreasonably rude, you just aren't tracking the discussion or replies, and this seems to be a theme with you, so forgive me but I'm not going to engage with you further.
Fine just keep purposefully misinterpreting and avoiding to adress what I say, that may be the trade mark of a good community manager after all, or not.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
*shakes head in disbelief* sigh..
I also like how his idea of a good community manager is a punching bag that takes whatever rude behavior is dished out. Maybe that's why nobody wants that job in the first place lol..
I am very constructive here. Also this discussion is pointless for me, you know I disagree on what you would like this game to be, so discussing on how to fix your brought up problems makes no sense, if I don't even see how there is a problem.
@IronHorse regarding the pre-250, 2 TP requirement for JP+Exo:
I bought NS2 fairly late (about 2.5 years ago), what I remember was XO had only one gun, and you had to build a 2nd TP to buy the 2nd gun for the XO Also, you could only research either catpack or nanoshield at a given TP.
I never liked it, because it seemed inconsistent to me. If you have the proto, why cant you buy two guns straight away if you have the res?
On the other hand, I do like the idea of tying the current version of XO to a 2nd TP. Im not so sure about JP, since they are not that hard to swat from the air... especially if they equip heavier weapons. I'd also like to see the 2 TP requirement for both cpack and nshield restored, and the power surge moved back to the robo-factory.
If asymmetry was the only reason for those changes, then it was a stupid decision By that extreme logic, aliens should have a different type of resource to collect. And different type of techpoints to claim. And different type of air to breathe. Etc...
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
Keeping it simple:
I think railgun exos are in a good place
Minigun exos feel weird to me. It is either the charge up time for the minigun and/or the large spread of the minigun
I think nerfing onos boneshield would do alot to reduce late game alien snowball.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
It basically is an armored sniper shotgun with double damage against buildings for... 35 pres? (dual rail)
atleast this is what used to be in compmod... not sure if vanilla has different values
It is not rly slower than a marine walking on foot IIRC so the only downside it actually had is that it can't be medpacked. If Jetpack shotgun (which is also 35 pres) is so surperior then I would ask to move exos further forward in tech maybe (like on AA)
I feel like the railgun Exo has always been a missed opportunity. It excels at killing lifeforms (especially lerks), but it almost never sees action - by the point Exos are up, Onos have been in play for a while and you need those miniguns. Alternatively, you know Oni are going to hit any minute and you still go with minigun.
I think it might be worthwile to try giving them their claw back (Dual Railguns feel so awkward), nerfing their damage a little (maybe so that they can barely not oneshot a full health lerk) and making them available sooner.
One of marines' biggest problems is not being able to kill lifeforms; Railguns could help.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
I never understood why we cant have all on the exo.. nono, hear me out.
You buy the exo. It comes with a weapon select for either welding, minigun, railgun, hell even melee for all I care.
You have a weapon switch time to balance it around. Can be long if need be so its not that viable to swap in combat to counter buildin limitations of a exo type.
Make the weapon swap however you like, make it materialise parts out of nanites when you swap I dunno. Cosmetics...
That way you can have your weapon specific to your immediate need.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
edited March 2017
@Vetinari if you wanna give railguns more killing power I'd actually suggest removing the chargeup on exo and let it do 100% instantly. That way you still can do surprise twitch shots wit it...
But looking at players like wob this might be a bit too strong.
@The_Welsh_Wizard I can just imagine you are referring to lack of movement like jump and crouch when you say "the gameplay doesn't fit"?
I never understood why we cant have all on the exo.. nono, hear me out.
You buy the exo. It comes with a weapon select for either welding, minigun, railgun, hell even melee for all I care.
You have a weapon switch time to balance it around. Can be long if need be so its not that viable to swap in combat to counter buildin limitations of a exo type.
Make the weapon swap however you like, make it materialise parts out of nanites when you swap I dunno. Cosmetics...
That way you can have your weapon specific to your immediate need.
There was that US server (methinks) which ran a mod that allowed you to do just that. I dont remember it's name, but it was sooo awesome.
The only thing I'd forbid them equipping are welders. You must have squishy teammates supporting you, so they can be easily killed and then the exo x)
@Vetinari if you wanna give railguns more killing power I'd actually suggest removing the chargeup on exo and let it do 100% instantly. That way you still can do surprise twitch shots wit it...
But looking at players like wob this might be a bit too strong.
You must have misunderstood me. I want to make railgun exos available earlier, both because they are underused and because pub marines have problems killing lifeforms. To compensate, I'd give them less killing power.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
One major problem with Exo is, commander has trouble supporting Exos. You cannot heal them medpacks, MAC welding is slow, and catpack only boosts movement speed but not improve their weapons. Nanoshield was strong on the Exo at one point before it was nerfed.
Overall, I think Exos should be tougher, have less burst damage, but excel at sieging Hive to end the game. Each of the Exo type should have a more distinct purpose.
Thought a bit about what kind of end game tech marines could have similar to contamination. What about a kind of end game huge phase gate, a wholly different kind of pg, with a larger enclosure to allow arcs and exos to pass through.
One major problem with Exo is, commander has trouble supporting Exos. You cannot heal them medpacks, MAC welding is slow, and catpack only boosts movement speed but not improve their weapons. Nanoshield was strong on the Exo at one point before it was nerfed.
Overall, I think Exos should be tougher, have less burst damage, but excel at sieging Hive to end the game. Each of the Exo type should have a more distinct purpose.
I think that's a conscious limitation, and not a problem at all. 2 miniguns with 1 welder can wreak havoc IF played properly (keeping distance, not walking into ambushes, only firing when the target is presenting itself, etc). If the com had more tools to support them, that would be OP. The biggest con for exos is that you need a foot soldier to weld you, which is a good game mechanic. In theory at least, pubs can prove to be quite challenging But that can be said of a lot of game mechanics.
I think people have started using exos more effectively in pubs lately (at least on the thirsty onos servers). Yesterday some players even complained that exos are "so cheap" ^^ .
It could be a consequence of having to adjust to onosplosions; just like most aliens save for onos, marines now favour saving for exos.
I think people have started using exos more effectively in pubs lately (at least on the thirsty onos servers). Yesterday some players even complained that exos are "so cheap" ^^ .
It could be a consequence of having to adjust to onosplosions; just like most aliens save for onos, marines now favour saving for exos.
I think people have started using exos more effectively in pubs lately (at least on the thirsty onos servers). Yesterday some players even complained that exos are "so cheap" ^^ .
It could be a consequence of having to adjust to onosplosions; just like most aliens save for onos, marines now favour saving for exos.
It's actually a natural consequence, that if you don't need a lot of shotguns, since there are not many fades (or aggressive lerks who survive against rifles) due to scaredycats who rather regorge constantly or save for onos, marines can tech up fast and get exos... since aliens without lifeforms should have a hard time to kill the marine economy, especially on laarge servers...
I love my rail gun... evey alien except the onos is fodder, which forces the onos to act. That 45-2 fade can't hid behind the hive. That 20-4 lerk who's spiking lives in fear... and the wave after wave of fullhardy skulks go pop.
Is a SG/JP better? Strategy and satisfaction are different. Yeah it's satisfying to chance that low onos down. but sniping that pesky fade as he rounds the corner 3 doorways away, smile
Comments
Besides being unreasonably rude, you just aren't tracking the discussion or replies, and this seems to be a theme with you, so forgive me but I'm not going to engage with you further.
@SquishpokePOOPFACE
Yeah tying 2nd CC to tier 3 tech was my suggestion some 4 years ago. You'd have to lower the cost of a CC as well as the PL if you did that. At a minimum I'd like to see A3/W3 tied.
Worst case scenario from this is that Marines are able to turtle on two bases instead of one, but at least this provides a better point from which to come back from, and on some maps aliens would still be on 2 hives, giving even a greater chance.
And if Marines are destroying aliens, killing a CC knocks Marines back down again for a potential alien comeback.
Frankly though, on the topic of late game Marines, I'd rather start with making tier 3 tech more accessible / sooner before adjusting tied tech and subsequently nerfing alien tier 3 tech.
Onos are available on average 4 minutes before most tier 3 Marine tech.. I think that should be adjusted first somehow.
They could add the different upgrades or whatever also, so you could choose extra armor, or a higher jumpjet, or longer sprint/boost, etc. Basically just make them more fun and useful than they are now.
Then tie exo research to a second CC, and add something to mitigate the 3rd hive win thing while the 2nd CC is up. Maybe like an upgrade to the obs that would block contaminate... i dunno just thinking.... Something that would encourage marines to take a second tech point, while discouraging (and weakening) turtles.
I agree that a 2nd CC should come with a free IP (maybe have the CC cost like 10 more res)
I also like how his idea of a good community manager is a punching bag that takes whatever rude behavior is dished out. Maybe that's why nobody wants that job in the first place lol..
@The_Welsh_Wizard
Got anything constructive?
I bought NS2 fairly late (about 2.5 years ago), what I remember was XO had only one gun, and you had to build a 2nd TP to buy the 2nd gun for the XO Also, you could only research either catpack or nanoshield at a given TP.
I never liked it, because it seemed inconsistent to me. If you have the proto, why cant you buy two guns straight away if you have the res?
On the other hand, I do like the idea of tying the current version of XO to a 2nd TP. Im not so sure about JP, since they are not that hard to swat from the air... especially if they equip heavier weapons. I'd also like to see the 2 TP requirement for both cpack and nshield restored, and the power surge moved back to the robo-factory.
If asymmetry was the only reason for those changes, then it was a stupid decision
Maybe?
So what do spores do exactly?
Enhance bacterium concentration in the air
I think railgun exos are in a good place
Minigun exos feel weird to me. It is either the charge up time for the minigun and/or the large spread of the minigun
I think nerfing onos boneshield would do alot to reduce late game alien snowball.
atleast this is what used to be in compmod... not sure if vanilla has different values
It is not rly slower than a marine walking on foot IIRC so the only downside it actually had is that it can't be medpacked. If Jetpack shotgun (which is also 35 pres) is so surperior then I would ask to move exos further forward in tech maybe (like on AA)
I think it might be worthwile to try giving them their claw back (Dual Railguns feel so awkward), nerfing their damage a little (maybe so that they can barely not oneshot a full health lerk) and making them available sooner.
One of marines' biggest problems is not being able to kill lifeforms; Railguns could help.
You buy the exo. It comes with a weapon select for either welding, minigun, railgun, hell even melee for all I care.
You have a weapon switch time to balance it around. Can be long if need be so its not that viable to swap in combat to counter buildin limitations of a exo type.
Make the weapon swap however you like, make it materialise parts out of nanites when you swap I dunno. Cosmetics...
That way you can have your weapon specific to your immediate need.
But looking at players like wob this might be a bit too strong.
@The_Welsh_Wizard I can just imagine you are referring to lack of movement like jump and crouch when you say "the gameplay doesn't fit"?
There was that US server (methinks) which ran a mod that allowed you to do just that. I dont remember it's name, but it was sooo awesome.
The only thing I'd forbid them equipping are welders. You must have squishy teammates supporting you, so they can be easily killed and then the exo x)
You must have misunderstood me. I want to make railgun exos available earlier, both because they are underused and because pub marines have problems killing lifeforms. To compensate, I'd give them less killing power.
Overall, I think Exos should be tougher, have less burst damage, but excel at sieging Hive to end the game. Each of the Exo type should have a more distinct purpose.
I think that's a conscious limitation, and not a problem at all. 2 miniguns with 1 welder can wreak havoc IF played properly (keeping distance, not walking into ambushes, only firing when the target is presenting itself, etc). If the com had more tools to support them, that would be OP. The biggest con for exos is that you need a foot soldier to weld you, which is a good game mechanic. In theory at least, pubs can prove to be quite challenging
It could be a consequence of having to adjust to onosplosions; just like most aliens save for onos, marines now favour saving for exos.
It's actually a natural consequence, that if you don't need a lot of shotguns, since there are not many fades (or aggressive lerks who survive against rifles) due to scaredycats who rather regorge constantly or save for onos, marines can tech up fast and get exos... since aliens without lifeforms should have a hard time to kill the marine economy, especially on laarge servers...
Is a SG/JP better? Strategy and satisfaction are different. Yeah it's satisfying to chance that low onos down. but sniping that pesky fade as he rounds the corner 3 doorways away, smile