Are Exos viable?

IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,083 admin
edited January 21 in NS2 General Discussion
This isn't a nuanced poll because it isn't a nuanced question.
I'm not asking if exos are viable in your hands, or with your particular team, or just in large player counts, or in a hallway on veil, or only if you can successfully rush them by 8 minutes etc - nor am I asking if they only did X or were paired with Y would they be viable. I am not asking if they are fun.

I am asking if they are currently a viable strategy and tool you can rely on, for any game?


For competitive and public. Are they a viable tech path? If you were commanding would you prioritize them?
(Forgetting about that player who won't stop asking for em) Would you rely or depend on them being a viable tier 3 strategy on par with jet packs??

Thanks for your input.
QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
Post edited by IronHorse on

Are Exos viable? 49 votes

Yes
61%
twilitebluepSyk0mAnxtcmenFaustWobRedSword.trixX.killer monkeyMuckyMcFlyIronmanSherlockamoralBestProfileNamemeatmachineSupaFred2coughG_LockRammlerrkfgThe_Welsh_Wizard 30 votes
No
38%
NarfwakAcrylicDC_DarklingMaxAmusStardogHandschuhxtalIeptBarakatAeglosIronHorseNordicSquishpokePOOPFACEsoccerguy243UltimateMangaka25cooliticVetinariMephillesborsdyCRaZyCAT_Rus 19 votes
«134567

Comments

  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 550 Auto Verified
    Yes
    When average elo is around 1000-1500 exos are the only way to make your marines push a hive.
    migalski
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 174 Auto Verified
    Yes
    In Pubs: Yes, because rookies cant handle jps or rush hives without an exo. Also are most rookies always saving the res for exos, so not researching exos lets so many rookies finish the game with 50+ res.

    In comp: No, too expensive, very slow, cant be beaconed.
    wya3p5tg.png
    .trixX.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,083 admin
    edited January 21
    No
    @Rammler
    If it's viable in one and not the other how can you say it's viable?

    It's like saying rat poison can't kill you because you can have a medical team and machine on standby to flush your blood with charcoal for 24 hours.. despite rat poison being inherently lethal and the label saying as much.
    For an ns2 analogy: If I asked you if fade stab was viable would you say "yes if the Marine is afk" .. or would you accept that conditions don't change the inherent properties of a mechanic, they can only change the probable outcome when active (Rat poison analogy works here again) and therefore say no, stab is not viable?


    The question is for across the board, generally speaking, is it viable? If it's 80% viable in pubs and %60 viable in comp then it might be viable. But if that split is 80 / 10 .. then maybe not.
    This is a subjective perspective question.. but I just want to make sure everyone is weighing it properly.
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,468 Auto Verified
    No
    VS jetpacks: Most of the time, no. But there are some cases where they can be useful if you have abundant RES. Exos affect the aliens' morale more than anything.
    For each word spoken, one forgotten. For every thought, a memory rotten. I LIKE POOP
    IronHorsecoolitic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,115 Auto Verified
    No
    I voted no, because even though I think they are viable in pub, I wouldn't trust a random team to not fuck up with them.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
    Nordiccoolitic
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,305 Auto Verified
    No
    No. Sure I can come up with situations for viable strategies in pubs and comp.
    But in general, going exo is to lose, especially in comp.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 464 Auto Verified
    Yes
    It has the highest dps for field players of all marine tech and as such gives me more fire power and impact.

    Railgun in particular helps kills all non onos lifeforms in so many situations not least including res defence.

    Mini gun trading an onos is preferable because the rate of marine pres accumulation is compared to aliens simply because of ease of expansion
    migalski
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,613 admin
    Breaking news! The community is divided on an issue. ;)
    IronHorsecooliticusermcw
  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members Posts: 83 Auto Verified
    Yes
    Exosuit is a contradiction in itself to me. It's a tool used to push forward and it deals high enough DPS that it can take down an onos, but using it sacrifices a player on your team to weld you, and that a situation of one exosuit + welder vs onos for some reason, tends to lose, but having even just rifle support makes them a winner.

    Railgun isn't that useful - Sure it takes down structures fast, but not that fast - The minigun can do just about as well as the railgun. The railgun is not even seemingly more effective than the minigun against life forms either, not even a fade imo.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Posts: 2,613 admin
    ZdrytchX wrote: »
    Exosuit is a contradiction in itself to me. It's a tool used to push forward and it deals high enough DPS that it can take down an onos, but using it sacrifices a player on your team to weld you, and that a situation of one exosuit + welder vs onos for some reason, tends to lose, but having even just rifle support makes them a winner.

    Railgun isn't that useful - Sure it takes down structures fast, but not that fast - The minigun can do just about as well as the railgun. The railgun is not even seemingly more effective than the minigun against life forms either, not even a fade imo.

    If you can get railguns out before onos... it wrecks everything if you've got good aim. I remember a few times we'd rush exos, I'd get rail gun, and completely dominate... right up until onos come out... then it's like "welp gg, time to go get a minigun instead".
    Vetinaricoolitic
  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver Posts: 1,498 Auto Verified
    Yes
    ZdrytchX wrote: »
    Railgun isn't that useful - Sure it takes down structures fast, but not that fast - The minigun can do just about as well as the railgun. The railgun is not even seemingly more effective than the minigun against life forms either, not even a fade imo.

    You should see Wob playing Railgun-Exo.



  • antouantou France Join Date: 2016-07-24 Member: 220615Members Posts: 20 Auto Verified
    Yes
    Exos are viable when there's a guy mic-spamming "Weld the exos !!!!!" in your team.
    BestProfileName
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,115 Auto Verified
    No
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    ZdrytchX wrote: »
    Exosuit is a contradiction in itself to me. It's a tool used to push forward and it deals high enough DPS that it can take down an onos, but using it sacrifices a player on your team to weld you, and that a situation of one exosuit + welder vs onos for some reason, tends to lose, but having even just rifle support makes them a winner.

    Railgun isn't that useful - Sure it takes down structures fast, but not that fast - The minigun can do just about as well as the railgun. The railgun is not even seemingly more effective than the minigun against life forms either, not even a fade imo.

    If you can get railguns out before onos... it wrecks everything if you've got good aim. I remember a few times we'd rush exos, I'd get rail gun, and completely dominate... right up until onos come out... then it's like "welp gg, time to go get a minigun instead".

    And we're back to the old problem of Onos just overrunning everything.
    Remember Fadesplosions? We delayed that to Onosplosions.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 987 Auto Verified
    ZdrytchX wrote: »
    Railgun isn't that useful - Sure it takes down structures fast, but not that fast - The minigun can do just about as well as the railgun. The railgun is not even seemingly more effective than the minigun against life forms either, not even a fade imo.
    You're nuts man. Railguns are insane lifeform killers, including fades. If you hear a fade, you simply time and charge both railguns simultaneously and you do up to 340 damage to him, if he isn't already instagibbed from that, a quick succession shot will finish him off.

    Lerks are even easier to instagib. Especially with the new hitboxes, it's so easy to land the shots.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,468 Auto Verified
    edited January 23
    No
    It takes two, maybe three skulks to kill an exo, guys. In no time. And if he's camping a hallway, maybe just go a different way? An exo camping a hallway means that one of their other RTs have one less guy defending them. C'mon
    For each word spoken, one forgotten. For every thought, a memory rotten. I LIKE POOP
    The_Welsh_WizardcooliticBestProfileNamemigalski
  • MaxAmusMaxAmus UK Join Date: 2003-12-26 Member: 24779Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 549 Auto Verified
    No
    Simple, No, Exos on there own, no, not really.

    Alot of "IF's" come into play to make EXOS Viable.

    Personally i love them, Rail-gun and mini-gun. I can do alot of damage and even carry a team at times, IF we work as a team. But that's just me.

    ENSL.org Ns2 League Ref/Caster -- Natural Selection 2 Playtester -- How to kill a fade East's One Man Wrecking Band My Twitch.tv Channel
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 464 Auto Verified
    Yes
    I don't know what more to say. Exos are in a pretty good way at the moment.

    *WARNING turn down volume*
    SupaFredcoolitic
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,083 admin
    edited January 24
    No
    That's an awesome example of what they do in a great players' hands.

    But how well does the average pubber use them? Does every player use them effectively like you just did? Can you do the same with miniguns? Can others?

    This poll isn't to discuss situational instances where they may effective or not, it's whether they are a viable path to choose in all environments and for all players.
    For instance, if I had you on my team, @Wob I'd probably research exos.. but if I had the average nightly pub team I probably wouldn't even remotely consider it, lol.
    They typically wouldn't position themselves properly and just waste their pres and more than likely make losing that much more likely.

    Does requiring specific conditions like that impact the perceived and actual viability of exos to the community? I believe it does. That's why I'd like to know people's opinions.
    What is possible is often going to be different from what practically occurs 90% of the time.
    And when there's a large disconnect like that, that's where I feel like L2P arguments fall flat, because there's obviously a design issue present unless your intention was for only 10% of costumers to properly utilize a mechanic.

    What is interesting is that while you may be great with them as a skilled player, why aren't we seeing skilled competitive teams utilizing them consistently??
    So is this perception difference in the community coming from skilled players in pub games who can wreck (but not in comp oddly?) - versus low-medium skilled players never attaining that efficiency with them in the same pubs?

    Idk..
    Post edited by IronHorse on
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 1,468 Auto Verified
    No
    Just buff their damn armor already
    For each word spoken, one forgotten. For every thought, a memory rotten. I LIKE POOP
    The_Welsh_Wizard
  • r3aLiTyr3aLiTy Join Date: 2003-01-25 Member: 12743Members, Constellation Posts: 31 Auto Verified
    IronHorse wrote: »
    What is interesting is that while you may be great with them as a skilled player, why aren't we seeing skilled competitive teams utilizing them consistently??

    for comp, some thing i see:

    not mobile enough compared to jp
    can be wrecked or pushed back with a well timed rush
    comp / low player count / good coordination makes it easier for the aliens to base rush / outmaneuver marines when marines use exos
    exos need dedicated welders or require jumping out to weld

    huge waste of res (when loss) / loss of maneuverability when compared to jp

    can always get 2 comp teams to try and run exo strats in scrims and see results?
    ysrn
    IronHorse
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 991 Auto Verified
    edited January 24
    Wob wrote: »
    I don't know what more to say. Exos are in a pretty good way at the moment.

    *WARNING turn down volume*

    This proves nothing.

    You would have killed every single alien with a sg/hmg+jp just as well and you wouldn't even have died in the process. And even if you did die, the other marine, who wouldn't have been occupied welding, could've preserved your weapon / pres.
    IronHorseDaveodeth
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 484 Auto Verified
    edited January 24
    No
    IronHorse wrote: »
    This poll isn't to discuss situational instances where they may effective or not, it's whether they are a viable path to choose in all environments and for all players.

    If we are just talking about viability, flamethrowers are worse than exos. I'd spend extra res to research AA that doesn't come with flamethrowers even. Burning stuff isn't worth it when its so situational, especially now when there are few lerks, even fewer comms who research gas and cysts that have reduced max hp. The only viable use now is to burn structures or bilebomb, especially when covering your arcs. While you can now kill with it, most players will probably still do better with another weapon.

    GLs are slightly better, although that is only because half the team in pubs can't aim and its their only chance of ever taking out an advanced lifeform that is not the onos.
    Wob wrote: »
    I don't know what more to say. Exos are in a pretty good way at the moment.
    *WARNING turn down volume*
    Aeglos wrote: »
    That's you. What if you were the commander on a pub team?

    IronHorse
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 537 Auto Verified
    Yes
    Well, the question is like wanting to know the position and momentum of a photon
    It just doesn't make sense, each round is shaped by a multitude of decisions, each of which can increase or decrease the usefulness of exos...
    I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but i'm an honest man: it depends :P

    Public: Yes it's viable, because most of the time teams are in disarray and cannot mount any tactical opposition (like protecting biling gorges, or a simple rush to force beacon).
    Comp: No, it's too slow and cannot be beaconed.

    Btw, my personal preference if getting a suit is railgun, because it makes aliens panic when all of a sudden poof, >50% of their health disappears in a sec :D
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
    antou
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 464 Auto Verified
    Yes
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    I don't know what more to say. Exos are in a pretty good way at the moment.

    *WARNING turn down volume*

    This proves nothing.

    You would have killed every single alien with a sg/hmg+jp just as well and you wouldn't even have died in the process.

    Just not true. Getting to that lerk would have been a bitch and having to reload would have made pushing in like that impossible. Killing those tunnels from range, forcing aliens out from the heal radius of the hive, walking on eggs, it all adds up.

    Regardless, the fact that it is possible to do either PROVES exos are viable. The question wasn't "What is more effective?" but "Are EXOs viable?". Yes they are. They have fantastic hive pushing abilities, great damage output, good enough mobility, and appropriate weaknesses. Spikes, Bile, Whips, Onos, a few skulks, all can kill / defend from exos.
    .trixX.The_Welsh_Wizard
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members Posts: 484 Auto Verified
    No
    Wob wrote: »
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    I don't know what more to say. Exos are in a pretty good way at the moment.

    *WARNING turn down volume*

    This proves nothing.

    You would have killed every single alien with a sg/hmg+jp just as well and you wouldn't even have died in the process.

    Just not true. Getting to that lerk would have been a bitch and having to reload would have made pushing in like that impossible. Killing those tunnels from range, forcing aliens out from the heal radius of the hive, walking on eggs, it all adds up.

    Regardless, the fact that it is possible to do either PROVES exos are viable. The question wasn't "What is more effective?" but "Are EXOs viable?". Yes they are. They have fantastic hive pushing abilities, great damage output, good enough mobility, and appropriate weaknesses. Spikes, Bile, Whips, Onos, a few skulks, all can kill / defend from exos.

    But that isn't the question posed. Its not if they could be viable. Look at all the qualifiers the pony included. Its if they could be viable under all circumstances. Again, if you were stuck in the chair with unreliable teammates, would you trust that they will be effective with it? I think you will lose control of the map pretty quickly if you weren't already dominating.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Posts: 464 Auto Verified
    Yes
    They have fantastic hive pushing abilities, great damage output, good enough mobility, and appropriate weaknesses. Spikes, Bile, Whips, Onos, a few skulks, all can kill / defend from exos.

    Pros and cons.

    Viable. Balanced. Fun.

    Remove all previous personal anecdotes. Have I answered your question yet? Sincere question because it feels like I'm seriously misunderstanding what's being asked here
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,083 admin
    No
    .trixX. wrote: »
    It just doesn't make sense, each round is shaped by a multitude of decisions, each of which can increase or decrease the usefulness of exos...
    Wob wrote: »
    Sincere question because it feels like I'm seriously misunderstanding what's being asked here

    This is why I attempted to keep the poll simple, and tried my best to explain what it was asking for by providing multiple examples of what I wasn't asking, in the OP.
    Yes, like almost any mechanic in this game its effectiveness can be determined by circumstance.

    Just like how fade stab would suddenly be viable if all marines were AFK every round, you cannot use specific circumstances alone to define the viability. (like a good shooter railgunning in a pub)
    What you can do, however, is consider and weigh ALL circumstances involved in order to answer the question.

    This means those times where you command and research exos and your team just utterly fails, to those times where you go 40-0 in a railgun yourself. Are they viable in comp AND pubs as a reliable tech path?
    Weigh it all.. and then it's up to your opinion whether it's mostly viable or mostly not etc.


    Personally, if a mechanic is only or mostly viable under specific circumstances that are infrequent (wob on your team), then I have a hard time considering it viable.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
«134567
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