None of the Lost River entrances are going to be removed. If that's what you're talking about.
If you are talking about the LZ then yes, they are removing the old entrances.
The devs wanted to reduce it from 3 to 2. I think the chosen entrance to remove was grand reef, at least this is what I have read here and there.
Might be thinking of the ILZ Corridor entrance there?
If they do decide to seal up most of the entrances into the LZ/ILZ - and thus further limiting your choice in the matter, which was a very important thing up until this point in the game - then I certainly hope they at least re-open some of them past 1.0. I can see why they didn't have the Lost River snake out across the entire map. It'd take a whole lotta development time for one region. Would I have liked to see that? Hell yeah. The Lost River has been immensely awesome in so many ways, think about if it really had that many tunnels to explore and get lost in. A treacherous foreboding place, stretched out across and beneath the map... Not practical right now, but I hope they revisit those early draft maps in the future at the very least.
I really don't agree with the logic that "A player might find an exit then leave" warrants cutting out alternate entrances/exits. Of course they'd leave. Food, water, supplies, just needing to get back to base? Maybe emerged in a place they haven't visited before, so they want to explore there now. The Lost River itself warrants exploration. If they leave, would they really leave and NEVER come back? How many players would do that? And if they do choose to do that, isn't that their decision?
These late-game biomes, except for perhaps the Active Lava Zone, really *should* have more than one way inside. The Lost River would require deep exploration, and you'd find it by exploring other deeper biomes and be rewarded for following them to the bottom (If the Northeastern Mountains entrance ever becomes a thing, you're rewarded for braving the reaper-infested area, and perhaps whatever is around the newly carved entrance.
The Inactive Lava Zone used to have a few surface-level entrances. The Dunes one was off the beaten path, and in Reaper territory. Throw in a few sea dragons either above it or within it, and you got your incentive for players to avoid it until they're ready for the content down there. The Aurora one was right under your nose but how many of us, actually decided to try going down there? I didn't bother trying until I was exploring the map on Creative (And still getting caught by the Reaper above it for not paying attention) and it took a lot of effort from me to follow that abyss down to the seafloor because of how unnerving it was - the Crash Zone music not doing anything to help the experience.
I liked the idea of a 'living biome'. I also really like the idea of these sorts of late-game content things being stuck in very early parts of the game and you just never know it when you see it. You pass on by, none the wiser. Zodiark being contained in a sealed off section of a relatively early-game mines in Final Fantasy XII, the Water Dragon's cave being stuck within eyesight of a level 1-10 town in Runes of Magic - that's an end-game raid dungeon, right outside a starting level town. You'll probably head into the precursor cave system for some early game quests or out of curiosity, but you won't be allowed access into the dungeon itself because you're only level 9. Zodiark you'll see the tunnels sealed off, and the map will confirm there's more to the area if you're attentive, but you won't be allowed access until really late in the game. A horror that even the gods feared was sealed up in this seemingly low-tier area, but you'd never have known that on your first visit or maybe not even your second or third.
Went off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's the point I was trying to make with the Crash Zone entrance. Many of us will be heading into the Aurora to loot it and fix the reactors. We'll look down and see nothing. We assume there's nothing. Then there's a Reaper. We never look down again, and we don't feel like going down there. That's enough to keep most new players from assuming it's an "easy shortcut" into the ILZ, despite being surface level access into it. World-wise, I'd love to think that the Aurora's crashing revealed that entrance too, and with all the volcanic activity in the Koosh Zone nearby, why wouldn't there be an entrance over in this area or at least nearby?
Back to the comments about why some LR and ILZ entrances are being removed / considered to be removed... I really, disagree with the "Find an exit then leave" line. If difficulty gating is the reason and so surface-level access is considered 'too easy', then make it more hazardous. The Crash Zone's already concealed nicely in an abyss with a reaper patrolling above, so there's your camo for it. If it's just thinking that a player will be exploring then find an exit and leave... That's their decision isn't it? If they want to leave the area, let them. Heck, finding that exit might even save their lives. In a game that so heavily encouraged exploration, shouldn't we have that sort of freedom?
If it's a combination of both, which it's more than very likely, please just consider those two aspects: We should be allowed the freedom to find multiple paths to and from things, and if an entrance is deemed 'too easy' then try and find a way to make it dangerous or the tunnels it leads to dangerous.
>We're making a game about exploring deep sea caves to find alien technologies
>but we're going to make all of our caves linear with 1 entrance and 1 exit
Are you out of your goddamn minds?
We need MORE entrances!
MORE expansive cave systems!
Branching tunnels with splits, dead ends, intersections!
Just because "youtube Streamers" (Which have to have progress in their video series' to keep them interesting and the view counts up) take the short, easy road to progressing doesn't mean that has to be the ONLY road available.
Hell it's not like you're just leaving out content that has yet to be implemented, but you're actively REMOVING content just because a popular youtuber doesn't go exploring the whole damn ocean.
I rarely ever go to the Sea Treader Path. Is that going to be removed?
how about the vast chunks of Mountains and Dunes biomes that I have no reason to explore? Are you gonna remove those?
Bringing back this comment, because it's still very relevant and very true. Limiting the exploration aspect is not a good thing.
When all the fragments were basically available in one place, what did they do? They spread them out, made them a bit more random, and gave us more choice and freedom in the matter. When there was multiple entrance/exit points to the LR/ILZ, what did they do? Seal them off one by one, limiting our freedom and the exploration aspect of an exploration-focused game.
I bring this up in the forums from time to time, but I also take the chance to suggest it in Feedback Reports in-game too while around these biomes. The Feedback Tool isn't just for reporting bugs, it's also for reporting Feedback on the game itself. If we really don't want existing content cut because o things like this, then we have to point that out. Markiplier really seemed to like the Dunes entrance to the ILZ, and when he first took a dip inside he really wanted to go back. I'm just waiting for his video where he'll seek it out to return... Only to find the place sealed up. "Well, that trip was for naught, let's go to the Deep Grand Reef. I remember leaving the ILZ there..." and spends a slow crawl all the way back there, talking to his audience as he does, and then after being warped out of his vehcile several times, nearly being killed by crabsquids, he reaches the ILZ Corridor only to find a brick wall in his face. He takes a moment to moan in despair, then calls the episode quits there and deems it a failure (Like when he blew up his seamoth visiting the Aurora and misunderstood what the Modification Table was. Three episodes, no progress xD)
With the Dunes entrance gone though, I've lost one of my only reasons to go to that dreary - and deadly - place. It does have Silver, so it's got that in its defense, and that mysterious pit in the center with all that flora and strange holes carved into the sides.... I always wondered if there was anything special to that, but it doesn't seem like there is? I don't really have any reason to go to the Mountains though, other than just poking around for giggles. The NE Mountains features:
>Gold and Diamonds for years. More than you could use on a dozen playthroughs.
>Uraninite. Enough to supply multiple large bases for god knows how long.
>Reapers
>Lithium, one of many biomes flooded with the thing.
>Thermal Vents
>Reapers.
>An early concept of a LR entrance that never came to be
>I didn't mention Reapers did I?
Other than the Uranium-sources, the NE Mountains is... Not a stunningly attractive place. Sure, they could add a Cache there like I think they did in the Dunes, but those you visit once then never return to again.
I think one big problem is that the Precursor storyline is really linear. You have to visit each base in a certain order or the story won't make any sense, which is probably why they're sealing off the ILZ entrance, to make it so that you have to pass by the DRF if you want to get there.
I personally think they should just bring back the other artifact colors and put them inside the bases so that you have to visit them in the right order, rather than just sealing off all the other entrances to the ILZ.
Also I really do hope that they at least put something in that old Aurora entrance once they do remove it. That was one of my favorite areas before.
I think one big problem is that the Precursor storyline is just way too linear. You have to visit each base in a certain order or the story won't make any sense, which is probably why they're sealing off the ILZ entrance, to make it so that you have to pass by the DRF if you want to get there.
I personally think they should just bring back the other artifact colors and put them inside the bases so that you have to visit them in the right order, rather than just sealing off all the other entrances to the ILZ.
Also I really do hope that they at least put something in that old Aurora entrance once they do remove it. That was one of my favorite areas before.
They could set it up so the biomes themselves can be explored as you please, but the precursor locales themselves would require a bit of set up first. Like the final precursor area, maybe would require that you have visited the previous installations and so on. You could technically get down to the ILZ without having visited a single precursor base, but you wouldn't be able to access the bases themsleves down there, until you've gone through the others?
I don't know. I just feel that the way they're going about it right now, is going against a lot of what the game seemed to promise in the beginning. Open world, exploration. That's true for the first half of the game, then it's just Connect the Dots after that. Read terminal/signal/whatever, follow it from Point A to Point B. Pick up story fragment there, it directs you from B to C, etc until you're finally in the last area. Up until you start on the storyline for real, you had a lot of flexibility in how you wanted to approach things, since the biomes allowed you to roam into them when and how you wanted. Once you begin your descent towards and into the ILZ, that freedom's been revoked and you've got a very narrow path in how you want to approach it.
I hope that the Story isn't the main reason that these areas are being limited even further than they already are. I understand that Story's important, but I feel that the biomes and such should look past that. Like @04Leonhardt pointed out, the undersea cavern systems shouldn't be linear, they should be vast and complex. When you're building your base, you'll want to place it where it's going to be important. You might want to build one near the ILZ Corridor entrance(s), which now will be pretty much just one place? What about if playing on Creative, where story's disabled entirely? There's a lot of missed opportunities here, by making the later portions - or any of it for that matter - of the game more linear.
Because players "might" leave before they explore the full biome, is not a very good reason to restrict access to something.
I just think, that sealing off the entrances to things, is not what Subnautica needs. If anything, it needs more entrances to the cavern biomes. More twisting paths, more complex networks of tunnels, more ways into the ILZ and LR rather than less. If someone leaves early that's their choice. Chances are they'll be back, especially if you make the biome look cool - And boy is the LR cool! Even without Story, it's awesome down there. Why would anyone not want to go back and explore again after they find an exit?
I really hope they keep something down there too. Even just a precursor cache at the very very least. Or a cave biome of its own. Have it connect to the Koosh volcanic tunnels. Something at the very least.
Best case, would keep the Crash Zone - ILZ connection, maybe even have that particular Corridor connect to the Koosh Zone cavern depths as well. Like others have said: More variety, more choice. That's what Subnautica's all about, not having to be expected to follow a set path through things.
I'd hope the devs really do reconsider these decisions, since it's doing more harm to the endgame than it is good. Imagine if the rest of the game was like how they're trying to make the endgame. Like they could remove all the seamoth pieces scattered around the plateuas, and all the prawn pieces from the wrecks. Now you're only source of them is the Aurora. Just a straight patch to two important vehicles, rather than searching for them and having multiple ways of getting it.
Closing off entrances to the LR and ILZ shouldn't be the answer here. Not here in a game where exploring is an advertised highlight. I don't use Discord, but it'd be great if @Obraxis and the others knew how important this variety is to some of us. That sealing these things up, "because a player might find an exit than leave before exploring the whole thing" isn't a good move. I've said before, the Lost River is freaking awesome. It was brilliantly designed - some of the best designed levels in a game I've seen in a very, very long time.. Why would ANYONE leave and then NOT go back to finish exploring it? If there's multiple exit points, then there's more ways it can be found - which is a good thing - and more ways they could leave should they need to get back to base asap. Again, more freedom not less freedom.
Here's the three current entrances to the ILZ, now that the Dunes one has been closed.
From what I read earlier in the thread, I guess the majority of the DGR Corridor is still there, it just doesn't open up into the Chamber now? I'd like to see the Aurora entrance remain, especially after seeing how massive it is there. It'd be great to see it stick around. I mean look at that - look how short the Lost River entrance is. I know you have to go through another biome first to get to that, but I still really adore the sheer scale of the Crash Zone entrance, and to a slightly lesser extent the (former) Deep Grand one. Imagine traveling through a fully fleshed out Crash Zone ILZ Corridor. Maybe with several Sea Dragons on the way inside, and when you pass through the Koosh Zone segment of it, there's huge lava fissures blasting superhot material into the water; from the ground and even the sides of the walls. It'd be a dangerous place to navigate, and it'd be awesome.
It would have been nice if the Dunes-ILZ connection remained, even if it didn't lead to the Chamber. I could largely accept a Lost River only connection to the Chamber... If there was other Inactive Lava segments present too. Like the Dunes, Crash Zone, and Deep Grand could lead to their own Corridors and smaller chambers, but they wouldn't lead to the Lava Castle and Active Lava.
This way, those entrances could still remain. They can still lead to the intimidating ILZ regions. But the story-related course would be through the Lost River. The other entrances would just be optional exploration points. Maybe they'd even connect to each other.
From what I read earlier in the thread, I guess the majority of the DGR Corridor is still there, it just doesn't open up into the Chamber now?
I just checked in game and it looks like the entire DGR corridor has been filled in.
The entire corridor... That's a very, very big shame. Especially if they went through the time detailing and decorating it only to just cement the entire corridor (I may be thinking of the LR corridor though)
They should at least keep the Crash Zone entrance. Yes, it's ugly right now but it has potential. A lot of potential. As much as I liked the DGR entrance, I can see why having the LR and ILZ entrances literally right next to each other was a bit much. One or the other had to go, and they choose the ILZ Corridor. I still believe though, that only having "One or two" entrances is not the right way to go, no matter how allegedly confusing it is for new players, or because some youtuber doesn't take them. It's a vast underground cave system of volcanic activity - it SHOULD be branching out and vast. Not an A-to-B line.
I've been loving Subnautica and the changes/additions being made, but these few just seem like very poor changes. If resources allowed, I'd have said keep the Dunes corridor. Have it connect with the LR-ILZ junction much like the Blood Kelp - LR - Deep Grand junction that jpeg on the first page has. Problem solved.
Keep the Crash Zone entrance. It can be a direct but dangerous route into the Chamber.
Please, don't just throw these away. We've had a lot of freedom in how we want to move about the Subnautica world, and now that's being removed for the LR/ILZ. There should not just be one or two entrances into the ILZ - that was one of its highlights to me as a cave system, is that it DID have multiple ways of accessing it. That should not be counted as a "Bad Thing", but as a good thing.
If there's going to be at least one additional entrance that ISN'T the Lost River, please let it be the Crash Zone entrance. That massive tunnel is just begging for attention, especially since its in an out of the way place, and a rather intimidating one at that. Don't relocate it or fill it in, but detail it. Breathe life into it. It could be the cyclops entry point, there could be a sea dragon inside that was on its way out to hunt reapers. It has potential, as the Dunes entrance had, but it's still there for now. Keep it instead of removing it. There's little reason to venture near the Crash Zone after you've finished looting it, this entrance would give you a reason to. However, if you really do feel it HAS to go, consider sticking the new entrance in the NE Mountains. Keep the huge corridor, but have the access point be in that forgotten portion of the map (Even though the Crash Zone and Dunes are just as avoided. The ILZ entrance was the one thing that made the Dunes worth visiting to me.)
The mountain caves could do with a long, arduous, and generally less efficient path to ILZ... it'd give them more interest. One can always keep such a path as less convenient and better hidden then Lost River.
The mountain caves could do with a long, arduous, and generally less efficient path to ILZ... it'd give them more interest. One can always keep such a path as less convenient and better hidden then Lost River.
This. This I could really support. It'd come in on the opposite end of the map as the LR entrance, it'd retain the big huge tunnel the Crash Zone currently uses - I still wish they'd keep that one though - and the ILZ gets to keep some flexibility in how you choose to enter it.
Still, looking at the map.... The Crash Zone entrance goes underneath the Koosh Zone. Which really ties in with the volcanic activity the region suggests it has. So I'd like to see that either be kept with a Crash Zone entrance, or have the proposed Mountains entrance retain it.
I keep looking at that map. The three entrances, each miles apart from each other. One in the south, one in the east, and one in the northwest. The corridors spiraling towards the center. Why was this a "bad idea"? The Dunes entrance really didn't need to be removed. It would just go south a bit, hook up with the LR-ILZ junction, and then boom. When I saw Markiplier discover that corridor, I was so insanely looking forward to seeing it completed. Now no one will get that chance (And boy will he be disappointed when he can't get to either of the ILZ entrances he used to know)
Heck, with the Sea Dragons apparently hunting and eating Reapers, that entrance would have made a lot of sense to have. They'd swim up through it, enter into a reaper infested area, and there you have it. Same with the huge Crash Zone tunnel.
Having those three entrances there, even if one of them is now just a LR deepsea entrance, really looks good in my mind. The Lost River isn't very Cyclops-friendly, so that could be an Exosuit-entrance and the Crash Zone would be a Cyclops-friendly entrance. I really, really hope that they reconsider their approach to what they're doing with the ILZ, and keep at least the Crash Zone entrance now that they've removed the DGR one. Please, please consider keeping it. The news on the ILZ sealings has been so far my only major disappointment with Subnautica's whole development, and it'd be a terrible shame if it gets further gutted.
I hate to spring out of nowhere on a barely-made account, but while I understand why this is disagreeable I, for one, would welcome a little more linearity in areas that are particularly significant to the plot.
Everything else in the game is constantly pushing you to explore this wide open and many-varied world, to discover and unlock new depths, that I don't think it would have a huge impact on how free the game feels. I recall being told, back when I found out the lava zones were a thing, to "just drive around, the entrances are everywhere" which was very confusing to little ole noob me. Just how big was this zone? How did it all connect together? How much was I missing?? Add to that how hard it is to navigate those pitch black tunnels when you're still unfamiliar with their layout... oof
To provide a precedent; consider the Aurora. Another plot-heavy area which (in my view, at least) was actually tremendously improved with a more linear structure that enabled you to be sure you hadn't missed anything. With the future completion of the lava castle (Inactive LZ) and skeleton research facility (Lost River) Precursor bases, a more streamlined linearity I believe would guide players better into important story areas.
....Of course this now means I will have to relocate my entire waypoint base and find another way into the lava zones that isn't the deep grand reef but hey, can't have everything I guess. q:
I hate to spring out of nowhere on a barely-made account, but while I understand why this is disagreeable I, for one, would welcome a little more linearity in areas that are particularly significant to the plot.
Everything else in the game is constantly pushing you to explore this wide open and many-varied world, to discover and unlock new depths, that I don't think it would have a huge impact on how free the game feels. I recall being told, back when I found out the lava zones were a thing, to "just drive around, the entrances are everywhere" which was very confusing to little ole noob me. Just how big was this zone? How did it all connect together? How much was I missing?? Add to that how hard it is to navigate those pitch black tunnels when you're still unfamiliar with their layout... oof
To provide a precedent; consider the Aurora. Another plot-heavy area which (in my view, at least) was actually tremendously improved with a more linear structure that enabled you to be sure you hadn't missed anything. With the future completion of the lava castle (Inactive LZ) and skeleton research facility (Lost River) Precursor bases, a more streamlined linearity I believe would guide players better into important story areas.
....Of course this now means I will have to relocate my entire waypoint base and find another way into the lava zones that isn't the deep grand reef but hey, can't have everything I guess. q:
That's just the thing, they advertised this game as being exploration heavy. For the second half of the game, there is no exploration - you're literally guided from point to point by signals and told precisely where to go. You don't have to worry about how large the ILZ is since the story will lead you into the LR, into and through the only remaining ILZ entrance, and straigt to the middle of the place as the bulk of the region is unimportant to the plot. The Dunes and Crash Zone corridors were only pitch black because they were unfinished and so had no ambient lighting defined yet, however the fleshed out Deep Grand corridor got nuked at the last minute, so unfinished or not doesn't seem to matter.
The aurora's actually less linear than it used to be, since it's got branching paths and extra rooms now. It used to literally be one straight corridor before, with no turns or anything. I just don't feel that linear world design is the answer here. If guiding people to an objective is the important part, then make the guiding more reliable, rather than crippling the world itself to do it. For a game that strove to emphasize how important exploring the vast world was, making the biomes themselves more linear is the worst thing they could do as it goes against the whole exploration aspect itself.
Streamlining the directing players to the plot locations is good. Crippling the world to do it is not. Look at the Sunbeam event chain. They gave you a beacon to direct you there and then learn about the stuff there, rather than reworking the world itself to do it. The aurora and its story material you're pushed to go there because of the radiation. The lifepods you head to and then find wrecks or other points of interest (Like the lifepod in the Blood Kelp Zone, which is near a Lost River entrance). There's many ways they can improve the flow of things without having to restrict access to the world itself.
Personally I feel the more linear the game gets the less 'Natural' it feels, this is a game about surviving on a remote aquatic world and adapting to survive, while exploring everywhere to get the resources to survive and explore more. If they keep on removing areas and zones and paths to explore I might as well call this "underwater mass effect" with how straight and to the point everything is becoming. I say there need to be more entrances to the LR and deeper zones, and more alien structures, example, where are their landing sites? shouldn't there be some residential areas in the structures for the aliens to rest and recover in? Since this game is based in a near fully natural environment shouldn't the places connect far more then this? and shouldn't there be a lot of random "dead end" areas where a cave goes only a bit into another biome? like that single jellyshroom in the BKZ that's near the front of the Aurora? and I personally feel this game is starting to come to an end a bit too quickly, like, their rushing too much to get it out, I say the Dev's should take the release date that they feel it should be at, and push it back at least another 8 or 9 months.
One thing that I would love to see is potentially multiple endings depending on what was done, since the game wont have much in the way of choices or character development for the player, it should be something along with, what they chose to do with the alien facilities, like, you have two or 3 routs, route 1 is the obvious, escape and return to humanity to warn of the planet's dangers along with the cure for Carar, another path could be helping out the high tech aliens by self conducted experiments and research on Carar while setting up some kind of beacon to warn ships away, a third kind of ending could be a selfish one where you keep the planets secrets for yourself, example retire onto the planet permanently by setting up permanent self sufficiency, example building x amount of grow beds with food and building up x amount of power while having x amount of water filtration systems, then just need a way to send communications out for social activity needs (can be done with having that empty spot on the top of the mountain closest to the precursor defense platform have a broken down beacon or communication system that could be repaired and tuned to human used frequencies)
This game is missing some major things I feel, 1, weather, it needs an actual weather system to make surviving up on the surface a bit more difficult then underwater with some parts and to make the solar panels a bit less effective randomly during cloud cover and storms, 2 more migratory sea life, example, the fauna should occasionally make the safe shallows much less safe for a bit and some rare sea life should appear every so often to make the whole planet seem Much larger then it currently feels, like an underwater island it feels like, 3, I think there should be some more adaptability for some of the tech, which should only be learned by putting fauna in the Alien Containment base piece and actually watching them with some kind of note pad or camera recording to make notes of the activity.
I personally feel this game is starting to come to an end a bit too quickly, like, their rushing too much to get it out, I say the Dev's should take the release date that they feel it should be at, and push it back at least another 8 or 9 months.
I feel the same way.
A dev recently said on discord that they won't be adding any more new content that isn't on the roadmap to the game before v1.0, which I personally don't like because there are still some things I feel are missing from the game that should be added before v1.0, like more types of small fish to give the game more variety, and more stuff added to the Grand Reef because it's kind of barren and not really grand right now (maybe this medium sized fish from the concept art).
But that would probably be a topic for a different thread.
Personally I feel the more linear the game gets the less 'Natural' it feels, this is a game about surviving on a remote aquatic world and adapting to survive, while exploring everywhere to get the resources to survive and explore more. If they keep on removing areas and zones and paths to explore I might as well call this "underwater mass effect" with how straight and to the point everything is becoming. I say there need to be more entrances to the LR and deeper zones, and more alien structures, example, where are their landing sites? shouldn't there be some residential areas in the structures for the aliens to rest and recover in? Since this game is based in a near fully natural environment shouldn't the places connect far more then this? and shouldn't there be a lot of random "dead end" areas where a cave goes only a bit into another biome? like that single jellyshroom in the BKZ that's near the front of the Aurora? and I personally feel this game is starting to come to an end a bit too quickly, like, their rushing too much to get it out, I say the Dev's should take the release date that they feel it should be at, and push it back at least another 8 or 9 months.
One thing that I would love to see is potentially multiple endings depending on what was done, since the game wont have much in the way of choices or character development for the player, it should be something along with, what they chose to do with the alien facilities, like, you have two or 3 routs, route 1 is the obvious, escape and return to humanity to warn of the planet's dangers along with the cure for Carar, another path could be helping out the high tech aliens by self conducted experiments and research on Carar while setting up some kind of beacon to warn ships away, a third kind of ending could be a selfish one where you keep the planets secrets for yourself, example retire onto the planet permanently by setting up permanent self sufficiency, example building x amount of grow beds with food and building up x amount of power while having x amount of water filtration systems, then just need a way to send communications out for social activity needs (can be done with having that empty spot on the top of the mountain closest to the precursor defense platform have a broken down beacon or communication system that could be repaired and tuned to human used frequencies)
This game is missing some major things I feel, 1, weather, it needs an actual weather system to make surviving up on the surface a bit more difficult then underwater with some parts and to make the solar panels a bit less effective randomly during cloud cover and storms, 2 more migratory sea life, example, the fauna should occasionally make the safe shallows much less safe for a bit and some rare sea life should appear every so often to make the whole planet seem Much larger then it currently feels, like an underwater island it feels like, 3, I think there should be some more adaptability for some of the tech, which should only be learned by putting fauna in the Alien Containment base piece and actually watching them with some kind of note pad or camera recording to make notes of the activity.
Exactly! The early to mid game captures that feeling almost perfectly. But the endgame's being gutted in favor of a direct and strict approach to things. I'd love to see multiple endings influenced by your actions in the game as well. Like if you manage to avert the Sunbeam away from the planet, or if you try to warn them but fail, or if you ust let them come and get shot down... Each would contribute to influencing your ending. Like the Fallout games, your choices in game affects the ending sequence.
I personally feel this game is starting to come to an end a bit too quickly, like, their rushing too much to get it out, I say the Dev's should take the release date that they feel it should be at, and push it back at least another 8 or 9 months.
I feel the same way.
A dev recently said on discord that they won't be adding any more new content that isn't on the roadmap to the game before v1.0, which I personally don't like because there are still some things I feel are missing from the game that should be added before v1.0, like more types of small fish to give the game more variety, and more stuff added to the Grand Reef because it's kind of barren and undeserving of it's name right now (maybe this medium sized fish from the concept art).
But this is a topic for another thread.
It'd be great if this topic could be brought up on the Discord too. So far, most people seem to be agreeing that limiting endgame exploration wasn't the best of ideas (And "why keep the ugly Crash Zone corridor"? Well, if they'd beautify it and flesh it out, it wouldn't be ugly anymore now would it?) but the devs really need to know that further restricting the player's freedom for the mid-to-late game is going to have adverse effects despite their good intentions. They're passionate, dedicated developers - some of the best I've seen in ages - but their choices with the ILZ here have been questionable. Imagine if we weren't allowed entry into the Deep Grand Reef until we visited both the Degasi Bases first? Some 'mysteriously powerful sea current' is keeping us out, that conveniently only goes away after we gather the story info on the mountains platform, floater island base, and jellyshroom base. Restricting access to areas in a game that thus far has striven so hard to emphasize an exploration theme is not doing itself any good.
Like was said earlier in this thread, these cave system biomes need MORE entrances, MORE tunnels, ones that fold in on each other, lead to dead ends, stretch acrosss the map and into each other... COMPLEX biomes like the ones on the surface. Instead, we've been seeing them get more and more simplified, more and more linear. I loved thinking of the Lost River as snaking its way across the map, and I understand that with limited resources UNW had to limit it to just a portion of it. However the ILZ already had several entrances carved out, and they were simply sealed up later. One of them was even mostly finished and detailed! That, is a very bad move.
An exit also serves as an entry point. Every "exit" to a biome may also be a player's chance at finding it too. UNW should also consider those players who really aren't interested in following the story, or those who decide to play on Creative. Limiting the game world hampers their enjoyment of it as well. Being worried that a player "might leave before they fully explore the place" is definitely not a good reason for limiting access to a biome. The only reason why I wouldn't come back to a biome, is if I didn't feel the place was worth my time. The only two biomes I feel are not worth my time are the Dunes and Northeastern Mountains. The Lost River is a BEAUTIFUL and eerie place. I said it before, I'll say it again: It's one of THE BEST game levels I've seen in a very long time. Why, would ANYONE, go there and not decide to come back? If you're really that worried about players leaving a place and not coming back to finish exploring it, then just make sure going there is worth their while. Rare loot, good crafting materials, beautiful scenery, etc. The Lost River has these things. The Dunes and Mountain depths do not. The Dunes DID have an ILZ entrance that made it worth visiting for me, but well.... At least it still has Sandstone deposits I guess.
Where does all this talk about the DGR entrance being detailed come from? Last time I went through there when I was mapping it out it was a pitch-black corridor that had lots of hard right angles, flat surfaces, and the rest being made out of identically same-sized spheres. Sure there was a limestone deposit or two here or there and the occasional pillar, but no flora, fauna, or even different textures besides the generic black lava texture. You can even see the flat surfaces and sharp angles in the map posted above, its as if the tunnel was cut in two and shifted horizontally at some point.
As for the removal of these entrances and how nice it would be to have more interconnected biomes, unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you want the game to be released in May. A lot of us wouldn't mind the date getting pushed back and getting many more updates adding all the things we want to see in the game, hell I'd love to see twisty bridges and an arctic biome. But the devs have deadlines to think about and I'm glad they aren't falling into the trap all too many early access games do and just endlessly push back the release date to endlessly update the game.
Sure certain concept art creatures/locations wont make it in and the game may even be criticized in reviews for endgame linearity but such is the nature of game development. Ever hear about beta features that were dropped in the development of a game? Maybe Stop n' Swop or Bottle's Revenge from Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie? We are now witness to exactly those types of things first hand. It's a bit sad but on the bright side many games now add significant content after release, so there's still a chance for lots of these things to make it in later.
Edit: There are a few benefits to linearity as well. If the only way to get to the LZ is BKZ->LR->ILZ think of how that will affect the journey. You'll have to gauge resources and plan out a much longer trip. This'll add a bit of challenge to the game, something that is very natural by the time you are able to dive this deep. It also allows the devs much more control over the experience, and they can plan for certain things they know the player will be going through. Perhaps it takes so long to reach the ILZ/LZ that your food and water are beginning to run low. You begin to balance additional exploration against survival and try to figure how far you can push your reserves. Overestimating yourself, you realize that you are out of resources and are in dire need of them. But exploring has led you to an area that has some sources of food and water. This puts you through a cycle of stress and relief, something that can feel quite good when the game handles it appropriately.
Where does all this talk about the DGR entrance being detailed come from? Last time I went through there when I was mapping it out it was a pitch-black corridor that had lots of hard right angles, flat surfaces, and the rest being made out of identically same-sized spheres. Sure there was a limestone deposit or two here or there and the occasional pillar, but no flora, fauna, or even different textures besides the generic black lava texture. You can even see the flat surfaces and sharp angles in the map posted above, its as if the tunnel was cut in two and shifted horizontally at some point.
As for the removal of these entrances and how nice it would be to have more interconnected biomes, unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you want the game to be released in May. A lot of us wouldn't mind the date getting pushed back and getting many more updates adding all the things we want to see in the game, hell I'd love to see twisty bridges and an arctic biome. But the devs have deadlines to think about and I'm glad they aren't falling into the trap all too many early access games do and just endlessly push back the release date to endlessly update the game.
Sure certain concept art creatures/locations wont make it in and the game may even be criticized in reviews for endgame linearity but such is the nature of game development. Ever hear about beta features that were dropped in the development of a game? Maybe Stop n' Swop or Bottle's Revenge from Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie? We are now witness to exactly those types of things first hand. It's a bit sad but on the bright side many games now add significant content after release, so there's still a chance for lots of these things to make it in later.
Edit: There are a few benefits to linearity as well. If the only way to get to the LZ is BKZ->LR->ILZ think of how that will affect the journey. You'll have to gauge resources and plan out a much longer trip. This'll add a bit of challenge to the game, something that is very natural by the time you are able to dive this deep. It also allows the devs much more control over the experience, and they can plan for certain things they know the player will be going through. Perhaps it takes so long to reach the ILZ/LZ that your food and water are beginning to run low. You begin to balance additional exploration against survival and try to figure how far you can push your reserves. Overestimating yourself, you realize that you are out of resources and are in dire need of them. But exploring has led you to an area that has some sources of food and water. This puts you through a cycle of stress and relief, something that can feel quite good when the game handles it appropriately.
The Dunes and Crash Zone corrirdors are - or were - like that, but relatively recently when they began overhauling the ILZ they updated the other corridors with lava streams, actual lighting, and some Deep Shrooms, as well as removing most if not all of the 'primitive' surfaces and replacing the Limestone with Obsidian. They even had fauna patroling the later half of it.
I'm less worried about them not finishing a few entrances in favor of getting a timely release, I'm more worried that they'll leave them sealed up even afterwards. Linearity also means predictability, and one entrance or three/four, the first thing you'd do in any case is to just build a base near your point of entry to resupply. That's why Markiplier ended up building his in the Grand Reef, since it'd mean less time spent restocking as all the essentials would be very close to where he was planning on going. With a one-entrance, one-exit sort of approach, that'd just make this easier. If you were caught on the opposite end of the cave, you'd still have to head all the way back, but that's it. If you knew an entrance was nearby, you'd have to go all the way through that, potentially dodging even more threats on the way through (like my suggesting the Dunes/CZ corridors would have Sea Dragons in them) and then on top of that hike all the way back through the surface world to your base, effectively doubling the trip time.
A single straight line just means you have less to plan for, less to worry about, less ways of finding the dev's hard work, less to explore and discover - which was one of the key highlights of the game wasn't it? Exploring a vast alien world and discovering what it had to offer. I understand that postponing it forever isn't the answer either, but time considerations weren't the reasons they were bringing up for axing existing content, or for putting away the Rock Puncher. With the latter it was the terraforming function being removed, the former it seems they're worried about confusing new players and/or worried people will leave the Lost River and never come back after finding an exit. It's an endgame biome, by the time a player reaches these legitimately they wouldn't be concerned as much with things like this. And why would anyone NOT go back to the Lost River after exiting it? It's a brilliantly designed biome!
You must be seeing something different from me then. I see part of the DGR entrance looks detailed but the majority of it looks like the following montage. screens taken on Creative, Stable, Jan 2017 update with fog cheat active at midday. Red circle on map is where the screens were taken. I mistook sandstone for limestone. Saw only one while taking these screens. Dark as the rear end of a reaper down there.
And why would anyone NOT go back to the Lost River after exiting it? It's a brilliantly designed biome!
Admittedly I haven't spent a whole lot of time there after they've done detail passes, but why WOULD you want to go back to the Lost River after exploring it once? I don't remember it being a good source of food, water, titanium, quartz, or silver. It's a beautiful location, my favorite as far as appearance/theme goes, but it just doesn't offer much reason to return. It has some thermal vents, great for power, but it's far from the only location for those. It doesn't offer a safer, faster, or more convenient way across the map and the other ILZ entrances are/were much more convenient.
Now that I think about it, if the only way to reach the ILZ was through the Lost River it would be arguably less linear and offer more exploration. You'd have to find an entrance to the LR from the surface world and navigate the LR itself before reaching the ILZ, and you're not even to the castle or ALZ yet. Compare that to what we have currently where you dive at DGR/CZ/Dunes, travel through a tunnel, and you're there. Say you've already found the ILZ when you begin to explore the Lost River, or vice versa. Once you find the connecting tunnel between the two you're a bit disappointed that while on the wild frontier exploring areas you've never seen before you've managed to... Loop back to an area you've already seen before. Happened to me, and as soon as I figured out what was going on I turned back.
My suggestion is to remove surface-to-ILZ entrances and add additional LR-to-ILZ entrances, like the early map the devs had of the Lost River. Give the map essentially three main vertical tiers of depth; surface, Lost River, and lava zones.
You must be seeing something different from me then. I see part of the DGR entrance looks detailed but the majority of it looks like the following montage. screens taken on Creative, Stable, Jan 2017 update with fog cheat active at midday. Red circle on map is where the screens were taken. I mistook sandstone for limestone. Saw only one while taking these screens. Dark as the rear end of a reaper down there.
And why would anyone NOT go back to the Lost River after exiting it? It's a brilliantly designed biome!
Admittedly I haven't spent a whole lot of time there after they've done detail passes, but why WOULD you want to go back to the Lost River after exploring it once? I don't remember it being a good source of food, water, titanium, quartz, or silver. It's a beautiful location, my favorite as far as appearance/theme goes, but it just doesn't offer much reason to return. It has some thermal vents, great for power, but it's far from the only location for those. It doesn't offer a safer, faster, or more convenient way across the map and the other ILZ entrances are/were much more convenient.
Now that I think about it, if the only way to reach the ILZ was through the Lost River it would be arguably less linear and offer more exploration. You'd have to find an entrance to the LR from the surface world and navigate the LR itself before reaching the ILZ, and you're not even to the castle or ALZ yet. Compare that to what we have currently where you dive at DGR/CZ/Dunes, travel through a tunnel, and you're there. Say you've already found the ILZ when you begin to explore the Lost River, or vice versa. Once you find the connecting tunnel between the two you're a bit disappointed that while on the wild frontier exploring areas you've never seen before you've managed to... Loop back to an area you've already seen before. Happened to me, and as soon as I figured out what was going on I turned back.
My suggestion is to remove surface-to-ILZ entrances and add additional LR-to-ILZ entrances, like the early map the devs had of the Lost River. Give the map essentially three main vertical tiers of depth; surface, Lost River, and lava zones.
Or I was seeing the latter part of it, nearer the actual chamber rather than the whole thing... It's been a while. I do know that there was a corridor - or at least part of one? - that looked like that and had fauna in it.
Very few endgame biomes are a good source of titanium, quartz, or silver though. The Mountains has none of those resources, the Dunes surprisingly has a good amount of metal scrap and food and even some sandstone, the Blood Kelp (used to?) have a good amount of Quartz but not a lot of the others, the Grand Reef was mostly just food... There is - currently - some Large Titanium Deposits in parts of the Lost River, and there's natural quartz as well. In its deeper parts near the "Ghost Tree" the only real threat is a prowler or two you can convince to leave by nudging it with a sub or repulsion cannon a few times or drill-arming it if you're feeling that mean. Food and Water in the endgame is only as difficult as it is making a reactor and a MP Room. The Lost River's got thermal vents and a lot of flat building space near the large Ghost Tree and very little in the way of threats in the immediate area. There's your constant power source, then a grow bed and filteration machine later, you're all set. Bring down some Bladderfish and Peepers to make a fish farm even, if the growbed isn't working well enough - or just grab a spine fish or two.
The other two entrances depended on you both stumbling upon them by accident - much like the Floating Island - and were in Reaper infested areas. For a typical player, that's hardly an easier or more convenient access. For a seasoned player who knows where to find things and how to dance with reapers, then perhaps. The Crash Zone entrance you'd almost certainly not find unless someone pointed it out to you, since what reason do you have to go down there? You're heading to the Aurora to fix the reactor, but you see a bottomles abyss AND a reaper beneath you. For most people, that pretty much seals it. Like Markiplier said when he first gazed down there (And right at the entrance concealed beneath the murkiness) "I'd never go down there". Its a reverse situation with the Floatin Island. In this case, you're focused on staying on the surface. With the island, you miss it because you're focused on the depths. The Dunes entrance had an intimidating feel to it, and I shared Markipliers fascination with it. The biggest problem, was it often had a reaper patroling near or even directly above it.
If easiness is the cause of concern here, all they need to do is slap a sea dragon in one. I pointed out before, they're said to hunt reapers. There's going to be some reaper skeletons in the ILZ. So far, the only Sea Dragons have been found very far away from any reapers. With these updates, the only way to get them is to go through the not very Seadragon-friendly Lost River caves. That little lore bit became just a touch harder to swallow, since the two areas with ready access to reaper-prey just got their tunnels shut off. I was really hoping to see a sea dragon patrolling above the Dunes pit to reinforce that data, not only would it make that entrance more of a task to get to, not only would it let the sea dragons show off their glow-in-the-dark'ness a bit more (Which they cant do in the overly bright ILZ), but you might even get to see it and the Reaper go at each other!
If we're talking an open world exploration game, then that sort of looping back onto existing places is bound to happen eventually. Cave systems, especially potentially complex networks of them, are especially likely to do something like that. Finding a new entrance to something like that is just one of the results you'll get, having the freedom to find it from one end of it or the other, rather than following a set and determined path. Sometimes it means you'll end up getting in over your head earlier than you should, but this linear approach means that you'll only ever find the ILZ once you're actually ready for it - whether you know you are or not. Like a zone-based RPG, you won't accidentally wander into a high-end region by exploring since you'll have to go through all the adjacent regions first, and those will almost certainly make you turn back (An exception that comes to mind was the old Trisfal Glades - Western Plaguelands connection)
Markiplier didn't seem disappointed when he looped back to the Deep Grand Reef, he was barely able to contain his excitement. He went in through the Dunes, circled through the Chamber, and then arrived on the other end of the map. "When they're done with this, we'll have twice the world area to use" Of course, now we'll only have roughly half that area since it's all being cut away, and there's no more branching across the map. I only brought him up as an example, since I've seen him visit the place (Jack hasn't yet, AFAIK and I don't really keep up with any other YT's who've played Subnautica. Only other is a Halo-focused one). I personally loved the idea of a cave system that branched out across the map, which is why I was saddened to see the Lost River have to be whittled down to a fraction of what the original concept suggested. Now that's happening with the ILZ too.
There's going to be pluses and cons to either approach I'll readily admit, but I'm not liking the feeling that's coming from the way things have been shaping up. Other than the Seaglide Battery nerf (Which has since been beefed up again) these changes have literally been the only disappointment for me in Subnautica's development. Of course, I've been playing for a while - maybe not as much as some others, I've only got 200 hours and came in just a bit after the H20 Update, but I'd restarted a number of games and liked approaching them differently each time. I was fascinated with the Dunes pit and loved building 'research bases' on the cusp of it or even within it. I long wanted to map out those two entrances, but was never sure how to go about it. I was really looking forward to seeing what they'd look like when completed. When I saw your map about it, I was even more enthusiastic about seeing that, though by then the Dunes entrance had already been sealed up (RIP. It would have made a nice connection to the LR-ILZ junction). To me, putting these in would mean more to explore. Taking them out would mean less.
Leon's comment earlier in the thread sums up my feelings on this matter almost perfectly:
>We're making a game about exploring deep sea caves to find alien technologies
>but we're going to make all of our caves linear with 1 entrance and 1 exit
Are you out of your goddamn minds?
We need MORE entrances!
MORE expansive cave systems!
Branching tunnels with splits, dead ends, intersections!
Just because "youtube Streamers" (Which have to have progress in their video series' to keep them interesting and the view counts up) take the short, easy road to progressing doesn't mean that has to be the ONLY road available.
Hell it's not like you're just leaving out content that has yet to be implemented, but you're actively REMOVING content just because a popular youtuber doesn't go exploring the whole damn ocean.
I rarely ever go to the Sea Treader Path. Is that going to be removed?
how about the vast chunks of Mountains and Dunes biomes that I have no reason to explore? Are you gonna remove those?
In a game like Subnautica, which always talked about the whole exploration thing, limiting and restricting access to the world itself like this to me really goes against that. One thing to remember, is that by having more ways of accessing things we also have more options and freedom, more choice in the matter. They don't have to have the Dunes/CZ entrances be "easy" to get through either.
So, if they want to make precursor locations linear, how about keying the forcefield access to different colored keys, and having the keys only available inside precursor locations, except for the first freebie? So you have to visit the locations in order, but you can see that they are there from the outside all you want whenever you want.
So, if they want to make precursor locations linear, how about keying the forcefield access to different colored keys, and having the keys only available inside precursor locations, except for the first freebie? So you have to visit the locations in order, but you can see that they are there from the outside all you want whenever you want.
Right. It'd also give you reason to be collecting Diamonds for those keys, since except for potentially losing an artifact before you can use it (How...?) or having your exosuit blown up, you won't be seeing those get used all that often. I could envision some of the later keys using Kyanite instead of Diamond, or even a little of both.
I don't see the Lost River nor the ILZ as being particularly dangerous to be honest. The endgame's frighteningly easy as it is, and some of these proposed changes I've been seeing only feel like it'll just get easier. Right now you've got Thermal reactors to provide infinite energy in the ILZ for both your bases (No more juggling bioreactor fuel or nuclear rods!) and your exosuit, you have infinite food supplied by Containment Units (Spine Fish in the LR, Lava reskins in the ILZ) and growbeds, infinite water supplied by unnaturally cheap to make Filteration Machines, the Extreme Heat effect does almost nothing to you and does absolutley nothing to your subs/base, and the Lost River's extreme cold has no effect at all.
So right now they're aiming to force players through the Lost River in an Exosuit that can just walk past all the "threats" in the biome (Acid Pools which can't damage it, Extreme Cold which does nada, and Prowlers which just tap at your suit them swim off) and remove surface-level access to the ILZ, the two surface level entry points require going off the beaten path (VERY off the beaten path for the Crash Zone) into barely visited biomes and dodging reapers on top of that. If difficulty's really a factor in this (Which from the pasted Discord responses, it didn't seem to be.) then making the Extreme Heat be more of a threat would be Step 1, and sticking a sea dragon in the larger "easier" paths would be Step 2. They might as well just drop the implication that Sea Dragons hunt Reapers, if there's not going to be any practical way for the two to meet up. (The Dunes / Crash Zone points would make sense, the LR and DGR points not so much)
Having a Corridor with a Sea Dragon or two would be great really, since then you'd have a decision to make: Take your exosuit and risk having it get wrecked by something that can very much target it and do a good amount of damage even at range, or go through the longer and relatively safer Lost River path. Which is what an open world - exploration game should be about right? Offering a player options, rather than going out of its way to limit them?
i switched to "experimental" in steam this month and i miss the DGR-ILZ entrance next to the DGR-LR entrance. Its a dead end now.
I wasnt able to find the CZ-ILZ entrance north of the aurora because it is so dark. So I only used the DGR-ILZ entrance. so i have to try the one in the dunes.
I'm very excited about the upcomming feb17 update also when i'm loosing my safe because i used the DGR-ILZ entrance
The DGR entrance has already been sealed up in experimental.
But as you can see on my previous post, they are thinking about adding another entrance somewhere else in the world.
I've been playing on Stable only lately, so I never knew... That's a shame, especially when you consider the Twisty Bridges were potentially going to be relocated down there to transition from the DGR to the ILZ Corridor. Now what will happen to them?
I still strongly feel that a single entry point into the ILZ is a bad idea, since it goes against the whole exploration and freedom aspects the game has most everywhere else. Editing because I hit submit too soon; but there were these entrances:
Northern Dunes
Northern Crash Zone
Lost River
Deep Grand Reef.
Of these, the Dunes and DGR have been sealed up. The Aurora entrance is likely to be sealed up too. If they open up another entrance, where would it go? I'd suggest either keeping the Crash Zone entrance, re-opening the Dunes one, or carving one into the Northeastern Mountains. A Koosh Zone entrance could be looked into, since it seems to have a good amount of volcanic activity there already.
The latter two suggestions would require more work though, than keeping the Dunes/Crash Zone entrances which are already carved out. Besides which you have to go out of your way to find the Dunes one, and the Aurora most people don't seem to look down there anyway because of the terrifyingness of that abyss and the Reaper parked right above it.
Actually thinking about it... The Mountains might be a good place for it after all. How many people really go into the deepest reaches of that place, especially after they visit the Island? The Dunes and Mountains have been - from what I've seen - some of the least visited places in the game, while the Grand Reef and its depths tend to be a hotspot. Not only is the Floating Island there, but all the story-related stuff and easy access into the Lost River with the least amount of danger on your part compared to other entrances to it.
One of the reasons I liked the Crash Zone entrance... And the Dunes entrance... Was the forboding feeling of just seeing that bottomless abyss before you, and it just kept going deeper and deeper. Sure, it was surface-level access into the ILZ, but they weren't without risk either. You had to dodge reapers, and if they had kept those entrances, you could have had Sea Dragons in the corridors too. They eat reapers, and there's reapers right by those entrances. It'd have made sense. That would make the Lost River entrance technically more safe. It'd deter most players from wanting to shortcut to the ILZ by going through there, but the option would remain. And I'm all for seeing more of those cuties too~
Makes sense, the seadragons hunt reapers SOMEWHERE.
this was able since the last experimental updates. the LR and ILZ entrances are next to it in DGR. best place for a "safe" base
edit with SPOILER: i searched yesterday for another way (due the closing of DGR-ILZ) and was able to finde the one "behind" the tree of life. It's a very beautifull way to go with the cyclopse. BKF-LR-ILZ. it's straight to the lava castle for the ion power
The DGR entrance has already been sealed up in experimental.
But as you can see on my previous post, they are thinking about adding another entrance somewhere else in the world.
I've been playing on Stable only lately, so I never knew... That's a shame, especially when you consider the Twisty Bridges were potentially going to be relocated down there to transition from the DGR to the ILZ Corridor. Now what will happen to them?
I still strongly feel that a single entry point into the ILZ is a bad idea, since it goes against the whole exploration and freedom aspects the game has most everywhere else. Editing because I hit submit too soon; but there were these entrances:
Northern Dunes
Northern Crash Zone
Lost River
Deep Grand Reef.
Of these, the Dunes and DGR have been sealed up. The Aurora entrance is likely to be sealed up too. If they open up another entrance, where would it go? I'd suggest either keeping the Crash Zone entrance, re-opening the Dunes one, or carving one into the Northeastern Mountains. A Koosh Zone entrance could be looked into, since it seems to have a good amount of volcanic activity there already.
The latter two suggestions would require more work though, than keeping the Dunes/Crash Zone entrances which are already carved out. Besides which you have to go out of your way to find the Dunes one, and the Aurora most people don't seem to look down there anyway because of the terrifyingness of that abyss and the Reaper parked right above it.
Actually thinking about it... The Mountains might be a good place for it after all. How many people really go into the deepest reaches of that place, especially after they visit the Island? The Dunes and Mountains have been - from what I've seen - some of the least visited places in the game, while the Grand Reef and its depths tend to be a hotspot. Not only is the Floating Island there, but all the story-related stuff and easy access into the Lost River with the least amount of danger on your part compared to other entrances to it.
One of the reasons I liked the Crash Zone entrance... And the Dunes entrance... Was the forboding feeling of just seeing that bottomless abyss before you, and it just kept going deeper and deeper. Sure, it was surface-level access into the ILZ, but they weren't without risk either. You had to dodge reapers, and if they had kept those entrances, you could have had Sea Dragons in the corridors too. They eat reapers, and there's reapers right by those entrances. It'd have made sense. That would make the Lost River entrance technically more safe. It'd deter most players from wanting to shortcut to the ILZ by going through there, but the option would remain. And I'm all for seeing more of those cuties too~
Makes sense, the seadragons hunt reapers SOMEWHERE.
Well with the devs sealing up all the entrances where the Sea Dragons could get easy access to the Reapers, they're all gonna starve now :B
Shutting off the Dunes entrance was a huge mistake. Sure, they put a cache there but big deal. How does that make the Dunes a more attractive place to visit? A precursor cache is a big deal story-wise certainly but after you visit it once and loot it..... Then that's it. It's done. Nothing more to see. No reason to go back. With the ILZ entrance there (And merging into the LR tunnel as well) you had a REASON to go to that god-forsaken place. Not anymore though!
The Crash-Zone reaper patrolling should just be removed if they're going to seal up the abyssal seafloor entrance there, because it doesn't do anything to deter a player from just swimming on the surface to the Aurora interior, and to me it was always there just to keep players from trying to go down to the seafloor (and the ILZ entrance lurking at the bottom)
It'd make perfect sense to keep that entrance, and have a Sea Dragon not too far within. It'd make a great back entrance to the ILZ too - the "easy" or direct route would be the Lost River, and the lengthier and more challenging secret entrance would be the seafloor Crash Zone entrance. It'd have lava fissures blasting molten rock into the waters, and it'd have a Sea Dragon or two patrolling the tunnels... And from a lore standpoint the sea dragons would travel through it to get at the reapers above. So there we go.
I really, really, really hope they keep that entrance. There's so many reasons why it SHOULD stay, and I haven't seen any good reasons why it shouldn't. I didn't see any good reasons for cutting the Dunes entrance either, and yet...
Any update on this? Looking over the thread most posts speaking about these limitations seem to be upvoted quite a bit, so that sort of implies that some people feel that these decisions aren't exactly good ones.
I could accept if things like the Eastern Corridor were set aside because of time constraints and limited resources, that gives me hope that a year or so from now they could be fleshed out into something grand. A dangerous wide tunnel with hungry sea dragons patroling it and massive fissures spewing molten rock out... But hearing reasoning like "Having more than one entrance to a zone would mean a player might find it then leave before fully exploring the zone, and that's bad in an exploration game. The solution to a player having more places to explore is to have less places to explore." does the opposite effect.
The Lost River is currently confined to a smaller space on the map, rather than sprawling out like the Inactive Lava Zone does / used to. So it doesn't need too many entrances (Even though some planned ones would have been kinda cool in theory...) but the Inactive Lava Zone would have benefited from more. The player and the game - which is supposed to, or was supposed to, focus so heavily on an exploration theme - would have benefited from having more places to explore. The Dunes entrance seems to have been sealed up permanently, replaced with a cache you loot once then never ever return to as its been rendered useless after your first visit. I don't want to see the Eastern Corridor suffer the same fate, I want to see it at the very least postponed until they have the time/resources to make it a Grand Corridor.
Comments
I think that they're going to keep it.
If you are talking about the LZ then yes, they are removing the old entrances.
Might be thinking of the ILZ Corridor entrance there?
If they do decide to seal up most of the entrances into the LZ/ILZ - and thus further limiting your choice in the matter, which was a very important thing up until this point in the game - then I certainly hope they at least re-open some of them past 1.0. I can see why they didn't have the Lost River snake out across the entire map. It'd take a whole lotta development time for one region. Would I have liked to see that? Hell yeah. The Lost River has been immensely awesome in so many ways, think about if it really had that many tunnels to explore and get lost in. A treacherous foreboding place, stretched out across and beneath the map... Not practical right now, but I hope they revisit those early draft maps in the future at the very least.
I really don't agree with the logic that "A player might find an exit then leave" warrants cutting out alternate entrances/exits. Of course they'd leave. Food, water, supplies, just needing to get back to base? Maybe emerged in a place they haven't visited before, so they want to explore there now. The Lost River itself warrants exploration. If they leave, would they really leave and NEVER come back? How many players would do that? And if they do choose to do that, isn't that their decision?
These late-game biomes, except for perhaps the Active Lava Zone, really *should* have more than one way inside. The Lost River would require deep exploration, and you'd find it by exploring other deeper biomes and be rewarded for following them to the bottom (If the Northeastern Mountains entrance ever becomes a thing, you're rewarded for braving the reaper-infested area, and perhaps whatever is around the newly carved entrance.
The Inactive Lava Zone used to have a few surface-level entrances. The Dunes one was off the beaten path, and in Reaper territory. Throw in a few sea dragons either above it or within it, and you got your incentive for players to avoid it until they're ready for the content down there. The Aurora one was right under your nose but how many of us, actually decided to try going down there? I didn't bother trying until I was exploring the map on Creative (And still getting caught by the Reaper above it for not paying attention) and it took a lot of effort from me to follow that abyss down to the seafloor because of how unnerving it was - the Crash Zone music not doing anything to help the experience.
I liked the idea of a 'living biome'. I also really like the idea of these sorts of late-game content things being stuck in very early parts of the game and you just never know it when you see it. You pass on by, none the wiser. Zodiark being contained in a sealed off section of a relatively early-game mines in Final Fantasy XII, the Water Dragon's cave being stuck within eyesight of a level 1-10 town in Runes of Magic - that's an end-game raid dungeon, right outside a starting level town. You'll probably head into the precursor cave system for some early game quests or out of curiosity, but you won't be allowed access into the dungeon itself because you're only level 9. Zodiark you'll see the tunnels sealed off, and the map will confirm there's more to the area if you're attentive, but you won't be allowed access until really late in the game. A horror that even the gods feared was sealed up in this seemingly low-tier area, but you'd never have known that on your first visit or maybe not even your second or third.
Went off on a bit of a tangent there, but that's the point I was trying to make with the Crash Zone entrance. Many of us will be heading into the Aurora to loot it and fix the reactors. We'll look down and see nothing. We assume there's nothing. Then there's a Reaper. We never look down again, and we don't feel like going down there. That's enough to keep most new players from assuming it's an "easy shortcut" into the ILZ, despite being surface level access into it. World-wise, I'd love to think that the Aurora's crashing revealed that entrance too, and with all the volcanic activity in the Koosh Zone nearby, why wouldn't there be an entrance over in this area or at least nearby?
Back to the comments about why some LR and ILZ entrances are being removed / considered to be removed... I really, disagree with the "Find an exit then leave" line. If difficulty gating is the reason and so surface-level access is considered 'too easy', then make it more hazardous. The Crash Zone's already concealed nicely in an abyss with a reaper patrolling above, so there's your camo for it. If it's just thinking that a player will be exploring then find an exit and leave... That's their decision isn't it? If they want to leave the area, let them. Heck, finding that exit might even save their lives. In a game that so heavily encouraged exploration, shouldn't we have that sort of freedom?
If it's a combination of both, which it's more than very likely, please just consider those two aspects: We should be allowed the freedom to find multiple paths to and from things, and if an entrance is deemed 'too easy' then try and find a way to make it dangerous or the tunnels it leads to dangerous.
Bringing back this comment, because it's still very relevant and very true. Limiting the exploration aspect is not a good thing.
When all the fragments were basically available in one place, what did they do? They spread them out, made them a bit more random, and gave us more choice and freedom in the matter. When there was multiple entrance/exit points to the LR/ILZ, what did they do? Seal them off one by one, limiting our freedom and the exploration aspect of an exploration-focused game.
I bring this up in the forums from time to time, but I also take the chance to suggest it in Feedback Reports in-game too while around these biomes. The Feedback Tool isn't just for reporting bugs, it's also for reporting Feedback on the game itself. If we really don't want existing content cut because o things like this, then we have to point that out. Markiplier really seemed to like the Dunes entrance to the ILZ, and when he first took a dip inside he really wanted to go back. I'm just waiting for his video where he'll seek it out to return... Only to find the place sealed up. "Well, that trip was for naught, let's go to the Deep Grand Reef. I remember leaving the ILZ there..." and spends a slow crawl all the way back there, talking to his audience as he does, and then after being warped out of his vehcile several times, nearly being killed by crabsquids, he reaches the ILZ Corridor only to find a brick wall in his face. He takes a moment to moan in despair, then calls the episode quits there and deems it a failure (Like when he blew up his seamoth visiting the Aurora and misunderstood what the Modification Table was. Three episodes, no progress xD)
With the Dunes entrance gone though, I've lost one of my only reasons to go to that dreary - and deadly - place. It does have Silver, so it's got that in its defense, and that mysterious pit in the center with all that flora and strange holes carved into the sides.... I always wondered if there was anything special to that, but it doesn't seem like there is? I don't really have any reason to go to the Mountains though, other than just poking around for giggles. The NE Mountains features:
>Gold and Diamonds for years. More than you could use on a dozen playthroughs.
>Uraninite. Enough to supply multiple large bases for god knows how long.
>Reapers
>Lithium, one of many biomes flooded with the thing.
>Thermal Vents
>Reapers.
>An early concept of a LR entrance that never came to be
>I didn't mention Reapers did I?
Other than the Uranium-sources, the NE Mountains is... Not a stunningly attractive place. Sure, they could add a Cache there like I think they did in the Dunes, but those you visit once then never return to again.
@Morph_Guy That is what I meant yes, I just generalize a bit too much.
I personally think they should just bring back the other artifact colors and put them inside the bases so that you have to visit them in the right order, rather than just sealing off all the other entrances to the ILZ.
Also I really do hope that they at least put something in that old Aurora entrance once they do remove it. That was one of my favorite areas before.
They could set it up so the biomes themselves can be explored as you please, but the precursor locales themselves would require a bit of set up first. Like the final precursor area, maybe would require that you have visited the previous installations and so on. You could technically get down to the ILZ without having visited a single precursor base, but you wouldn't be able to access the bases themsleves down there, until you've gone through the others?
I don't know. I just feel that the way they're going about it right now, is going against a lot of what the game seemed to promise in the beginning. Open world, exploration. That's true for the first half of the game, then it's just Connect the Dots after that. Read terminal/signal/whatever, follow it from Point A to Point B. Pick up story fragment there, it directs you from B to C, etc until you're finally in the last area. Up until you start on the storyline for real, you had a lot of flexibility in how you wanted to approach things, since the biomes allowed you to roam into them when and how you wanted. Once you begin your descent towards and into the ILZ, that freedom's been revoked and you've got a very narrow path in how you want to approach it.
I hope that the Story isn't the main reason that these areas are being limited even further than they already are. I understand that Story's important, but I feel that the biomes and such should look past that. Like @04Leonhardt pointed out, the undersea cavern systems shouldn't be linear, they should be vast and complex. When you're building your base, you'll want to place it where it's going to be important. You might want to build one near the ILZ Corridor entrance(s), which now will be pretty much just one place? What about if playing on Creative, where story's disabled entirely? There's a lot of missed opportunities here, by making the later portions - or any of it for that matter - of the game more linear.
Because players "might" leave before they explore the full biome, is not a very good reason to restrict access to something.
I just think, that sealing off the entrances to things, is not what Subnautica needs. If anything, it needs more entrances to the cavern biomes. More twisting paths, more complex networks of tunnels, more ways into the ILZ and LR rather than less. If someone leaves early that's their choice. Chances are they'll be back, especially if you make the biome look cool - And boy is the LR cool! Even without Story, it's awesome down there. Why would anyone not want to go back and explore again after they find an exit?
I really hope they keep something down there too. Even just a precursor cache at the very very least. Or a cave biome of its own. Have it connect to the Koosh volcanic tunnels. Something at the very least.
Best case, would keep the Crash Zone - ILZ connection, maybe even have that particular Corridor connect to the Koosh Zone cavern depths as well. Like others have said: More variety, more choice. That's what Subnautica's all about, not having to be expected to follow a set path through things.
I'd hope the devs really do reconsider these decisions, since it's doing more harm to the endgame than it is good. Imagine if the rest of the game was like how they're trying to make the endgame. Like they could remove all the seamoth pieces scattered around the plateuas, and all the prawn pieces from the wrecks. Now you're only source of them is the Aurora. Just a straight patch to two important vehicles, rather than searching for them and having multiple ways of getting it.
Closing off entrances to the LR and ILZ shouldn't be the answer here. Not here in a game where exploring is an advertised highlight. I don't use Discord, but it'd be great if @Obraxis and the others knew how important this variety is to some of us. That sealing these things up, "because a player might find an exit than leave before exploring the whole thing" isn't a good move. I've said before, the Lost River is freaking awesome. It was brilliantly designed - some of the best designed levels in a game I've seen in a very, very long time.. Why would ANYONE leave and then NOT go back to finish exploring it? If there's multiple exit points, then there's more ways it can be found - which is a good thing - and more ways they could leave should they need to get back to base asap. Again, more freedom not less freedom.
From what I read earlier in the thread, I guess the majority of the DGR Corridor is still there, it just doesn't open up into the Chamber now? I'd like to see the Aurora entrance remain, especially after seeing how massive it is there. It'd be great to see it stick around. I mean look at that - look how short the Lost River entrance is. I know you have to go through another biome first to get to that, but I still really adore the sheer scale of the Crash Zone entrance, and to a slightly lesser extent the (former) Deep Grand one. Imagine traveling through a fully fleshed out Crash Zone ILZ Corridor. Maybe with several Sea Dragons on the way inside, and when you pass through the Koosh Zone segment of it, there's huge lava fissures blasting superhot material into the water; from the ground and even the sides of the walls. It'd be a dangerous place to navigate, and it'd be awesome.
It would have been nice if the Dunes-ILZ connection remained, even if it didn't lead to the Chamber. I could largely accept a Lost River only connection to the Chamber... If there was other Inactive Lava segments present too. Like the Dunes, Crash Zone, and Deep Grand could lead to their own Corridors and smaller chambers, but they wouldn't lead to the Lava Castle and Active Lava.
This way, those entrances could still remain. They can still lead to the intimidating ILZ regions. But the story-related course would be through the Lost River. The other entrances would just be optional exploration points. Maybe they'd even connect to each other.
I just checked in game and it looks like the entire DGR to ILZ corridor has been filled in.
The entire corridor... That's a very, very big shame. Especially if they went through the time detailing and decorating it only to just cement the entire corridor (I may be thinking of the LR corridor though)
They should at least keep the Crash Zone entrance. Yes, it's ugly right now but it has potential. A lot of potential. As much as I liked the DGR entrance, I can see why having the LR and ILZ entrances literally right next to each other was a bit much. One or the other had to go, and they choose the ILZ Corridor. I still believe though, that only having "One or two" entrances is not the right way to go, no matter how allegedly confusing it is for new players, or because some youtuber doesn't take them. It's a vast underground cave system of volcanic activity - it SHOULD be branching out and vast. Not an A-to-B line.
I've been loving Subnautica and the changes/additions being made, but these few just seem like very poor changes. If resources allowed, I'd have said keep the Dunes corridor. Have it connect with the LR-ILZ junction much like the Blood Kelp - LR - Deep Grand junction that jpeg on the first page has. Problem solved.
Keep the Crash Zone entrance. It can be a direct but dangerous route into the Chamber.
Please, don't just throw these away. We've had a lot of freedom in how we want to move about the Subnautica world, and now that's being removed for the LR/ILZ. There should not just be one or two entrances into the ILZ - that was one of its highlights to me as a cave system, is that it DID have multiple ways of accessing it. That should not be counted as a "Bad Thing", but as a good thing.
If there's going to be at least one additional entrance that ISN'T the Lost River, please let it be the Crash Zone entrance. That massive tunnel is just begging for attention, especially since its in an out of the way place, and a rather intimidating one at that. Don't relocate it or fill it in, but detail it. Breathe life into it. It could be the cyclops entry point, there could be a sea dragon inside that was on its way out to hunt reapers. It has potential, as the Dunes entrance had, but it's still there for now. Keep it instead of removing it. There's little reason to venture near the Crash Zone after you've finished looting it, this entrance would give you a reason to. However, if you really do feel it HAS to go, consider sticking the new entrance in the NE Mountains. Keep the huge corridor, but have the access point be in that forgotten portion of the map (Even though the Crash Zone and Dunes are just as avoided. The ILZ entrance was the one thing that made the Dunes worth visiting to me.)
This. This I could really support. It'd come in on the opposite end of the map as the LR entrance, it'd retain the big huge tunnel the Crash Zone currently uses - I still wish they'd keep that one though
Still, looking at the map.... The Crash Zone entrance goes underneath the Koosh Zone. Which really ties in with the volcanic activity the region suggests it has. So I'd like to see that either be kept with a Crash Zone entrance, or have the proposed Mountains entrance retain it.
Heck, with the Sea Dragons apparently hunting and eating Reapers, that entrance would have made a lot of sense to have. They'd swim up through it, enter into a reaper infested area, and there you have it. Same with the huge Crash Zone tunnel.
Having those three entrances there, even if one of them is now just a LR deepsea entrance, really looks good in my mind. The Lost River isn't very Cyclops-friendly, so that could be an Exosuit-entrance and the Crash Zone would be a Cyclops-friendly entrance. I really, really hope that they reconsider their approach to what they're doing with the ILZ, and keep at least the Crash Zone entrance now that they've removed the DGR one. Please, please consider keeping it. The news on the ILZ sealings has been so far my only major disappointment with Subnautica's whole development, and it'd be a terrible shame if it gets further gutted.
Everything else in the game is constantly pushing you to explore this wide open and many-varied world, to discover and unlock new depths, that I don't think it would have a huge impact on how free the game feels. I recall being told, back when I found out the lava zones were a thing, to "just drive around, the entrances are everywhere" which was very confusing to little ole noob me. Just how big was this zone? How did it all connect together? How much was I missing?? Add to that how hard it is to navigate those pitch black tunnels when you're still unfamiliar with their layout... oof
To provide a precedent; consider the Aurora. Another plot-heavy area which (in my view, at least) was actually tremendously improved with a more linear structure that enabled you to be sure you hadn't missed anything. With the future completion of the lava castle (Inactive LZ) and skeleton research facility (Lost River) Precursor bases, a more streamlined linearity I believe would guide players better into important story areas.
....Of course this now means I will have to relocate my entire waypoint base and find another way into the lava zones that isn't the deep grand reef but hey, can't have everything I guess. q:
That's just the thing, they advertised this game as being exploration heavy. For the second half of the game, there is no exploration - you're literally guided from point to point by signals and told precisely where to go. You don't have to worry about how large the ILZ is since the story will lead you into the LR, into and through the only remaining ILZ entrance, and straigt to the middle of the place as the bulk of the region is unimportant to the plot. The Dunes and Crash Zone corridors were only pitch black because they were unfinished and so had no ambient lighting defined yet, however the fleshed out Deep Grand corridor got nuked at the last minute, so unfinished or not doesn't seem to matter.
The aurora's actually less linear than it used to be, since it's got branching paths and extra rooms now. It used to literally be one straight corridor before, with no turns or anything. I just don't feel that linear world design is the answer here. If guiding people to an objective is the important part, then make the guiding more reliable, rather than crippling the world itself to do it. For a game that strove to emphasize how important exploring the vast world was, making the biomes themselves more linear is the worst thing they could do as it goes against the whole exploration aspect itself.
Streamlining the directing players to the plot locations is good. Crippling the world to do it is not. Look at the Sunbeam event chain. They gave you a beacon to direct you there and then learn about the stuff there, rather than reworking the world itself to do it. The aurora and its story material you're pushed to go there because of the radiation. The lifepods you head to and then find wrecks or other points of interest (Like the lifepod in the Blood Kelp Zone, which is near a Lost River entrance). There's many ways they can improve the flow of things without having to restrict access to the world itself.
One thing that I would love to see is potentially multiple endings depending on what was done, since the game wont have much in the way of choices or character development for the player, it should be something along with, what they chose to do with the alien facilities, like, you have two or 3 routs, route 1 is the obvious, escape and return to humanity to warn of the planet's dangers along with the cure for Carar, another path could be helping out the high tech aliens by self conducted experiments and research on Carar while setting up some kind of beacon to warn ships away, a third kind of ending could be a selfish one where you keep the planets secrets for yourself, example retire onto the planet permanently by setting up permanent self sufficiency, example building x amount of grow beds with food and building up x amount of power while having x amount of water filtration systems, then just need a way to send communications out for social activity needs (can be done with having that empty spot on the top of the mountain closest to the precursor defense platform have a broken down beacon or communication system that could be repaired and tuned to human used frequencies)
This game is missing some major things I feel, 1, weather, it needs an actual weather system to make surviving up on the surface a bit more difficult then underwater with some parts and to make the solar panels a bit less effective randomly during cloud cover and storms, 2 more migratory sea life, example, the fauna should occasionally make the safe shallows much less safe for a bit and some rare sea life should appear every so often to make the whole planet seem Much larger then it currently feels, like an underwater island it feels like, 3, I think there should be some more adaptability for some of the tech, which should only be learned by putting fauna in the Alien Containment base piece and actually watching them with some kind of note pad or camera recording to make notes of the activity.
A dev recently said on discord that they won't be adding any more new content that isn't on the roadmap to the game before v1.0, which I personally don't like because there are still some things I feel are missing from the game that should be added before v1.0, like more types of small fish to give the game more variety, and more stuff added to the Grand Reef because it's kind of barren and not really grand right now (maybe this medium sized fish from the concept art).
But that would probably be a topic for a different thread.
Exactly! The early to mid game captures that feeling almost perfectly. But the endgame's being gutted in favor of a direct and strict approach to things. I'd love to see multiple endings influenced by your actions in the game as well. Like if you manage to avert the Sunbeam away from the planet, or if you try to warn them but fail, or if you ust let them come and get shot down... Each would contribute to influencing your ending. Like the Fallout games, your choices in game affects the ending sequence.
It'd be great if this topic could be brought up on the Discord too. So far, most people seem to be agreeing that limiting endgame exploration wasn't the best of ideas (And "why keep the ugly Crash Zone corridor"? Well, if they'd beautify it and flesh it out, it wouldn't be ugly anymore now would it?) but the devs really need to know that further restricting the player's freedom for the mid-to-late game is going to have adverse effects despite their good intentions. They're passionate, dedicated developers - some of the best I've seen in ages - but their choices with the ILZ here have been questionable. Imagine if we weren't allowed entry into the Deep Grand Reef until we visited both the Degasi Bases first? Some 'mysteriously powerful sea current' is keeping us out, that conveniently only goes away after we gather the story info on the mountains platform, floater island base, and jellyshroom base. Restricting access to areas in a game that thus far has striven so hard to emphasize an exploration theme is not doing itself any good.
Like was said earlier in this thread, these cave system biomes need MORE entrances, MORE tunnels, ones that fold in on each other, lead to dead ends, stretch acrosss the map and into each other... COMPLEX biomes like the ones on the surface. Instead, we've been seeing them get more and more simplified, more and more linear. I loved thinking of the Lost River as snaking its way across the map, and I understand that with limited resources UNW had to limit it to just a portion of it. However the ILZ already had several entrances carved out, and they were simply sealed up later. One of them was even mostly finished and detailed! That, is a very bad move.
An exit also serves as an entry point. Every "exit" to a biome may also be a player's chance at finding it too. UNW should also consider those players who really aren't interested in following the story, or those who decide to play on Creative. Limiting the game world hampers their enjoyment of it as well. Being worried that a player "might leave before they fully explore the place" is definitely not a good reason for limiting access to a biome. The only reason why I wouldn't come back to a biome, is if I didn't feel the place was worth my time. The only two biomes I feel are not worth my time are the Dunes and Northeastern Mountains. The Lost River is a BEAUTIFUL and eerie place. I said it before, I'll say it again: It's one of THE BEST game levels I've seen in a very long time. Why, would ANYONE, go there and not decide to come back? If you're really that worried about players leaving a place and not coming back to finish exploring it, then just make sure going there is worth their while. Rare loot, good crafting materials, beautiful scenery, etc. The Lost River has these things. The Dunes and Mountain depths do not. The Dunes DID have an ILZ entrance that made it worth visiting for me, but well.... At least it still has Sandstone deposits I guess.
As for the removal of these entrances and how nice it would be to have more interconnected biomes, unfortunately it comes down to whether or not you want the game to be released in May. A lot of us wouldn't mind the date getting pushed back and getting many more updates adding all the things we want to see in the game, hell I'd love to see twisty bridges and an arctic biome. But the devs have deadlines to think about and I'm glad they aren't falling into the trap all too many early access games do and just endlessly push back the release date to endlessly update the game.
Sure certain concept art creatures/locations wont make it in and the game may even be criticized in reviews for endgame linearity but such is the nature of game development. Ever hear about beta features that were dropped in the development of a game? Maybe Stop n' Swop or Bottle's Revenge from Banjo-Kazooie/Tooie? We are now witness to exactly those types of things first hand. It's a bit sad but on the bright side many games now add significant content after release, so there's still a chance for lots of these things to make it in later.
Edit: There are a few benefits to linearity as well. If the only way to get to the LZ is BKZ->LR->ILZ think of how that will affect the journey. You'll have to gauge resources and plan out a much longer trip. This'll add a bit of challenge to the game, something that is very natural by the time you are able to dive this deep. It also allows the devs much more control over the experience, and they can plan for certain things they know the player will be going through. Perhaps it takes so long to reach the ILZ/LZ that your food and water are beginning to run low. You begin to balance additional exploration against survival and try to figure how far you can push your reserves. Overestimating yourself, you realize that you are out of resources and are in dire need of them. But exploring has led you to an area that has some sources of food and water. This puts you through a cycle of stress and relief, something that can feel quite good when the game handles it appropriately.
The Dunes and Crash Zone corrirdors are - or were - like that, but relatively recently when they began overhauling the ILZ they updated the other corridors with lava streams, actual lighting, and some Deep Shrooms, as well as removing most if not all of the 'primitive' surfaces and replacing the Limestone with Obsidian. They even had fauna patroling the later half of it.
I'm less worried about them not finishing a few entrances in favor of getting a timely release, I'm more worried that they'll leave them sealed up even afterwards. Linearity also means predictability, and one entrance or three/four, the first thing you'd do in any case is to just build a base near your point of entry to resupply. That's why Markiplier ended up building his in the Grand Reef, since it'd mean less time spent restocking as all the essentials would be very close to where he was planning on going. With a one-entrance, one-exit sort of approach, that'd just make this easier. If you were caught on the opposite end of the cave, you'd still have to head all the way back, but that's it. If you knew an entrance was nearby, you'd have to go all the way through that, potentially dodging even more threats on the way through (like my suggesting the Dunes/CZ corridors would have Sea Dragons in them) and then on top of that hike all the way back through the surface world to your base, effectively doubling the trip time.
A single straight line just means you have less to plan for, less to worry about, less ways of finding the dev's hard work, less to explore and discover - which was one of the key highlights of the game wasn't it? Exploring a vast alien world and discovering what it had to offer. I understand that postponing it forever isn't the answer either, but time considerations weren't the reasons they were bringing up for axing existing content, or for putting away the Rock Puncher. With the latter it was the terraforming function being removed, the former it seems they're worried about confusing new players and/or worried people will leave the Lost River and never come back after finding an exit. It's an endgame biome, by the time a player reaches these legitimately they wouldn't be concerned as much with things like this. And why would anyone NOT go back to the Lost River after exiting it? It's a brilliantly designed biome!
Admittedly I haven't spent a whole lot of time there after they've done detail passes, but why WOULD you want to go back to the Lost River after exploring it once? I don't remember it being a good source of food, water, titanium, quartz, or silver. It's a beautiful location, my favorite as far as appearance/theme goes, but it just doesn't offer much reason to return. It has some thermal vents, great for power, but it's far from the only location for those. It doesn't offer a safer, faster, or more convenient way across the map and the other ILZ entrances are/were much more convenient.
Now that I think about it, if the only way to reach the ILZ was through the Lost River it would be arguably less linear and offer more exploration. You'd have to find an entrance to the LR from the surface world and navigate the LR itself before reaching the ILZ, and you're not even to the castle or ALZ yet. Compare that to what we have currently where you dive at DGR/CZ/Dunes, travel through a tunnel, and you're there. Say you've already found the ILZ when you begin to explore the Lost River, or vice versa. Once you find the connecting tunnel between the two you're a bit disappointed that while on the wild frontier exploring areas you've never seen before you've managed to... Loop back to an area you've already seen before. Happened to me, and as soon as I figured out what was going on I turned back.
My suggestion is to remove surface-to-ILZ entrances and add additional LR-to-ILZ entrances, like the early map the devs had of the Lost River. Give the map essentially three main vertical tiers of depth; surface, Lost River, and lava zones.
Or I was seeing the latter part of it, nearer the actual chamber rather than the whole thing... It's been a while. I do know that there was a corridor - or at least part of one? - that looked like that and had fauna in it.
Very few endgame biomes are a good source of titanium, quartz, or silver though. The Mountains has none of those resources, the Dunes surprisingly has a good amount of metal scrap and food and even some sandstone, the Blood Kelp (used to?) have a good amount of Quartz but not a lot of the others, the Grand Reef was mostly just food... There is - currently - some Large Titanium Deposits in parts of the Lost River, and there's natural quartz as well. In its deeper parts near the "Ghost Tree" the only real threat is a prowler or two you can convince to leave by nudging it with a sub or repulsion cannon a few times or drill-arming it if you're feeling that mean. Food and Water in the endgame is only as difficult as it is making a reactor and a MP Room. The Lost River's got thermal vents and a lot of flat building space near the large Ghost Tree and very little in the way of threats in the immediate area. There's your constant power source, then a grow bed and filteration machine later, you're all set. Bring down some Bladderfish and Peepers to make a fish farm even, if the growbed isn't working well enough - or just grab a spine fish or two.
The other two entrances depended on you both stumbling upon them by accident - much like the Floating Island - and were in Reaper infested areas. For a typical player, that's hardly an easier or more convenient access. For a seasoned player who knows where to find things and how to dance with reapers, then perhaps. The Crash Zone entrance you'd almost certainly not find unless someone pointed it out to you, since what reason do you have to go down there? You're heading to the Aurora to fix the reactor, but you see a bottomles abyss AND a reaper beneath you. For most people, that pretty much seals it. Like Markiplier said when he first gazed down there (And right at the entrance concealed beneath the murkiness) "I'd never go down there". Its a reverse situation with the Floatin Island. In this case, you're focused on staying on the surface. With the island, you miss it because you're focused on the depths. The Dunes entrance had an intimidating feel to it, and I shared Markipliers fascination with it. The biggest problem, was it often had a reaper patroling near or even directly above it.
If easiness is the cause of concern here, all they need to do is slap a sea dragon in one. I pointed out before, they're said to hunt reapers. There's going to be some reaper skeletons in the ILZ. So far, the only Sea Dragons have been found very far away from any reapers. With these updates, the only way to get them is to go through the not very Seadragon-friendly Lost River caves. That little lore bit became just a touch harder to swallow, since the two areas with ready access to reaper-prey just got their tunnels shut off. I was really hoping to see a sea dragon patrolling above the Dunes pit to reinforce that data, not only would it make that entrance more of a task to get to, not only would it let the sea dragons show off their glow-in-the-dark'ness a bit more (Which they cant do in the overly bright ILZ), but you might even get to see it and the Reaper go at each other!
If we're talking an open world exploration game, then that sort of looping back onto existing places is bound to happen eventually. Cave systems, especially potentially complex networks of them, are especially likely to do something like that. Finding a new entrance to something like that is just one of the results you'll get, having the freedom to find it from one end of it or the other, rather than following a set and determined path. Sometimes it means you'll end up getting in over your head earlier than you should, but this linear approach means that you'll only ever find the ILZ once you're actually ready for it - whether you know you are or not. Like a zone-based RPG, you won't accidentally wander into a high-end region by exploring since you'll have to go through all the adjacent regions first, and those will almost certainly make you turn back (An exception that comes to mind was the old Trisfal Glades - Western Plaguelands connection)
Markiplier didn't seem disappointed when he looped back to the Deep Grand Reef, he was barely able to contain his excitement. He went in through the Dunes, circled through the Chamber, and then arrived on the other end of the map. "When they're done with this, we'll have twice the world area to use" Of course, now we'll only have roughly half that area since it's all being cut away, and there's no more branching across the map. I only brought him up as an example, since I've seen him visit the place (Jack hasn't yet, AFAIK and I don't really keep up with any other YT's who've played Subnautica. Only other is a Halo-focused one). I personally loved the idea of a cave system that branched out across the map, which is why I was saddened to see the Lost River have to be whittled down to a fraction of what the original concept suggested. Now that's happening with the ILZ too.
There's going to be pluses and cons to either approach I'll readily admit, but I'm not liking the feeling that's coming from the way things have been shaping up. Other than the Seaglide Battery nerf (Which has since been beefed up again) these changes have literally been the only disappointment for me in Subnautica's development. Of course, I've been playing for a while - maybe not as much as some others, I've only got 200 hours and came in just a bit after the H20 Update, but I'd restarted a number of games and liked approaching them differently each time. I was fascinated with the Dunes pit and loved building 'research bases' on the cusp of it or even within it. I long wanted to map out those two entrances, but was never sure how to go about it. I was really looking forward to seeing what they'd look like when completed. When I saw your map about it, I was even more enthusiastic about seeing that, though by then the Dunes entrance had already been sealed up (RIP. It would have made a nice connection to the LR-ILZ junction). To me, putting these in would mean more to explore. Taking them out would mean less.
Leon's comment earlier in the thread sums up my feelings on this matter almost perfectly:
In a game like Subnautica, which always talked about the whole exploration thing, limiting and restricting access to the world itself like this to me really goes against that. One thing to remember, is that by having more ways of accessing things we also have more options and freedom, more choice in the matter. They don't have to have the Dunes/CZ entrances be "easy" to get through either.
Right. It'd also give you reason to be collecting Diamonds for those keys, since except for potentially losing an artifact before you can use it (How...?) or having your exosuit blown up, you won't be seeing those get used all that often. I could envision some of the later keys using Kyanite instead of Diamond, or even a little of both.
I don't see the Lost River nor the ILZ as being particularly dangerous to be honest. The endgame's frighteningly easy as it is, and some of these proposed changes I've been seeing only feel like it'll just get easier. Right now you've got Thermal reactors to provide infinite energy in the ILZ for both your bases (No more juggling bioreactor fuel or nuclear rods!) and your exosuit, you have infinite food supplied by Containment Units (Spine Fish in the LR, Lava reskins in the ILZ) and growbeds, infinite water supplied by unnaturally cheap to make Filteration Machines, the Extreme Heat effect does almost nothing to you and does absolutley nothing to your subs/base, and the Lost River's extreme cold has no effect at all.
So right now they're aiming to force players through the Lost River in an Exosuit that can just walk past all the "threats" in the biome (Acid Pools which can't damage it, Extreme Cold which does nada, and Prowlers which just tap at your suit them swim off) and remove surface-level access to the ILZ, the two surface level entry points require going off the beaten path (VERY off the beaten path for the Crash Zone) into barely visited biomes and dodging reapers on top of that. If difficulty's really a factor in this (Which from the pasted Discord responses, it didn't seem to be.) then making the Extreme Heat be more of a threat would be Step 1, and sticking a sea dragon in the larger "easier" paths would be Step 2. They might as well just drop the implication that Sea Dragons hunt Reapers, if there's not going to be any practical way for the two to meet up. (The Dunes / Crash Zone points would make sense, the LR and DGR points not so much)
Having a Corridor with a Sea Dragon or two would be great really, since then you'd have a decision to make: Take your exosuit and risk having it get wrecked by something that can very much target it and do a good amount of damage even at range, or go through the longer and relatively safer Lost River path. Which is what an open world - exploration game should be about right? Offering a player options, rather than going out of its way to limit them?
I wasnt able to find the CZ-ILZ entrance north of the aurora because it is so dark. So I only used the DGR-ILZ entrance. so i have to try the one in the dunes.
I'm very excited about the upcomming feb17 update
Makes sense, the seadragons hunt reapers SOMEWHERE.
- A shroom cave entrance to Lost river
- A mountain or koosh cave to ILZ
- A deep-grand reef connection to ILZ
However, my solution would be to make them too small to fit the Cyclops through (and in some cases, too small to fit the Seamoth through).
Yes, one can use the seaglide/powerglide to get from Koosh zone into Lost River without the Seamoth - I've checked!
this was able since the last experimental updates. the LR and ILZ entrances are next to it in DGR. best place for a "safe" base
edit with SPOILER: i searched yesterday for another way (due the closing of DGR-ILZ) and was able to finde the one "behind" the tree of life. It's a very beautifull way to go with the cyclopse. BKF-LR-ILZ. it's straight to the lava castle for the ion power
Well with the devs sealing up all the entrances where the Sea Dragons could get easy access to the Reapers, they're all gonna starve now :B
Shutting off the Dunes entrance was a huge mistake. Sure, they put a cache there but big deal. How does that make the Dunes a more attractive place to visit? A precursor cache is a big deal story-wise certainly but after you visit it once and loot it..... Then that's it. It's done. Nothing more to see. No reason to go back. With the ILZ entrance there (And merging into the LR tunnel as well) you had a REASON to go to that god-forsaken place. Not anymore though!
The Crash-Zone reaper patrolling should just be removed if they're going to seal up the abyssal seafloor entrance there, because it doesn't do anything to deter a player from just swimming on the surface to the Aurora interior, and to me it was always there just to keep players from trying to go down to the seafloor (and the ILZ entrance lurking at the bottom)
It'd make perfect sense to keep that entrance, and have a Sea Dragon not too far within. It'd make a great back entrance to the ILZ too - the "easy" or direct route would be the Lost River, and the lengthier and more challenging secret entrance would be the seafloor Crash Zone entrance. It'd have lava fissures blasting molten rock into the waters, and it'd have a Sea Dragon or two patrolling the tunnels... And from a lore standpoint the sea dragons would travel through it to get at the reapers above. So there we go.
I really, really, really hope they keep that entrance. There's so many reasons why it SHOULD stay, and I haven't seen any good reasons why it shouldn't. I didn't see any good reasons for cutting the Dunes entrance either, and yet...
I could accept if things like the Eastern Corridor were set aside because of time constraints and limited resources, that gives me hope that a year or so from now they could be fleshed out into something grand. A dangerous wide tunnel with hungry sea dragons patroling it and massive fissures spewing molten rock out... But hearing reasoning like "Having more than one entrance to a zone would mean a player might find it then leave before fully exploring the zone, and that's bad in an exploration game. The solution to a player having more places to explore is to have less places to explore." does the opposite effect.
The Lost River is currently confined to a smaller space on the map, rather than sprawling out like the Inactive Lava Zone does / used to. So it doesn't need too many entrances (Even though some planned ones would have been kinda cool in theory...) but the Inactive Lava Zone would have benefited from more. The player and the game - which is supposed to, or was supposed to, focus so heavily on an exploration theme - would have benefited from having more places to explore. The Dunes entrance seems to have been sealed up permanently, replaced with a cache you loot once then never ever return to as its been rendered useless after your first visit. I don't want to see the Eastern Corridor suffer the same fate, I want to see it at the very least postponed until they have the time/resources to make it a Grand Corridor.