Are Exos viable?

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  • MoFo1MoFo1 United StatesMembers Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Posts: 729 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    What if they just made res towers cost a little bit less to drop?

    Seems like many times the res snowballing effect is amplified when one team spends all their team res replacing towers...

    Having them go down for a period of time would still hurt since you lose out on gaining res from it while it's down...

    I dunno just brainstorming...
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    No
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    What if they just made res towers cost a little bit less to drop?

    Seems like many times the res snowballing effect is amplified when one team spends all their team res replacing towers...

    Having them go down for a period of time would still hurt since you lose out on gaining res from it while it's down...

    I dunno just brainstorming...

    I think if you made that change big enough to have a noticeable effect, you would defeat the purpose of resbiting since RTs would become pretty cheap.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    coolitic
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    IronHorse wrote: »
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    it is also part of what makes NS/NS2 a stratagy game
    I'd argue that a mechanic that is a non-choice (obtaining RTs and destroying enemy RTs) is not "strategy".
    Strategy comes from your tech path, coordination, team composition, upgrade choices, physical locations on the map itself etc.
    RTs are just the requirement to be able to deploy said strategies.
    I view RT's as a secondary objective. Like in dirty bomb you can close or open a gate to give your team another avenue of attack or deny one. But they don't have anything to do with the win condition.

    You don't HAVE to collect or deny RT's in NS2. If you have the skills, walk in to their hive and kill em all or do a skulk rush.

    So to me, it's absolutely a conscious strategic choice I'm making, when I attack or build a resource tower. In fact, I'll add that I think a lot of mid-tier teams, and basically 99% of all gathers, are plagued with teams that insist on always protecting their resource towers way too far in to the lategame/endgame. It's like marines in gathers refuse to ever make a trade. Instead they are stuck in this mindset of trying to "control" or "contain" the aliens, and it often eventually concludes in a slow, painful, onos stomping comeback.

    I definitely do not think that resource towers, attacking or defending, is a "non-choice". I would like to see more people elect NOT to recap and NOT to defend more often, in exchange for more ground or to end games before lifeform explosions.
    Post edited by SantaClaws on
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  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    No
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I would like to see more people elect NOT to recap and NOT to defend more often, in exchange for more ground or to end games before lifeform explosions.

    I mostly agree, but some people in pubs (esp new players) still need to learn the importance of rt's
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


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  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,994 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    coolitic wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I would like to see more people elect NOT to recap and NOT to defend more often, in exchange for more ground or to end games before lifeform explosions.

    I mostly agree, but some people in pubs (esp new players) still need to learn the importance of rt's

    Capping resource nodes is similar to "farming" in MOBAs such as DOTA, which can be considered "secondary objectives". You see disorganised players getting distracted by them all the time, and failing to reinforce their team in battle.

    This problem is compounded in NS2 by harsh pubishment from death. Players need to save resources for significant amount of time, sometimes half the game to afford their weapons, which can be lost in seconds. It is no wonder that players are so obsessed with resources. We need to remember players are individuals that play the game for enjoyment, not merely pieces on a chess board. Not everyone is loyal (big league) to their team in a pub game.

    Teamwork is mandatory in NS2, however, NS2 is weak on promoting team play. There are few satisfying rewards or glory for engaging in direct combat, nor is there sufficient feedback. How much impact did your triumph over that one Skulk or Shotgunner have anyway? Resource gained through territory trickles in slowly. But when you lose your own precious Fade, it will be keenly felt. This reinforces loss avoidance and weakens the team.

    NS2 is inherently newbie-unfriendly by design, unfortunately. There is plenty of room for improvement.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Members Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Posts: 448 Advanced user
    Yes
    Res snowballing is not the problem as it doesnt explain why aliens have a higher win rate later on.

    Whoever brought that up probably took it out of its behind. And well he likes poop you were warned.

    The fact that Irnhorse who said he couldnt argue anything with us now openly talks nonsense about it is just another sign we are not on topic.



    But the alien commander doesn't need to spam meds and ammo to help engagements. The alien commander may spam an ability, but this is less essential and less costly in those big engagements that normally have to occur to get back map control.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,994 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    Back on the topic of Exo balance. I can think of two ways to buff Exo just off the top of my head, without changing movement speed, health, or damage (which are mostly fine at the moment).

    -Minigun Exo could have its spin-up time reduced, or with the spin-up removed when pause between short bursts is less than half a second.
    -Alien tracking HUD element could remain on screen at close range instead of fading out, to help target tracking.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes
    This thread has come and gone
  • WobWob Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Posts: 485 Advanced user
    Yes
    Seeing as recent changes have been done on "feelings" I'd say a 50-50 split in the community shows a mechanic or feature is doing pretty well. The fact that it current sits 58-42 in favour of viability only justifies that exos "feel" viable.

    I don't like that reasoning but apparently that's what it takes to change things
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Posts: 773 Advanced user
    Yes
    Wob wrote: »
    Seeing as recent changes have been done on "feelings" I'd say a 50-50 split in the community shows a mechanic or feature is doing pretty well. The fact that it current sits 58-42 in favour of viability only justifies that exos "feel" viable.

    I don't like that reasoning but apparently that's what it takes to change things

    I voted for yes, that doesn't mean I think exos as a mechanic are doing well.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    Yes
    I've tried to mostly stay out of this thread, the phrasing of the poll seemed like a trap. That said, some of this might be redundant.

    You could ask the same thing about pretty much any tech and there will always be varying degrees of viability based on your situation, however that was purposefully supposed to be excluded as a justification for one's reasoning. Seems like this has turned into an exo/late game balance discussion. I think it's clear why marines are more likely to win if they do it quick, this is why sometimes a game will be decided before the first 2 minutes if marines can deny alien expansion out-right. It's also clear why aliens win late games. In pubs, I see aliens win SO frequently. If there's not a carry marine, it's almost guaranteed. Pub marines do not pressure enough, let aliens get lifeforms, onos pop and it's usually gg. boneshield is ridiculously op, one good lerk or fade can shut down all marine rebuilders until onos come out, so you really only need a couple ppl to even play lerk/fade in pubs. 5 people saving for onos is working, so people are doing it.

    Exos are viable - if you plan to push w/ exos or if you need to fortify weak lanes when lifeforms pop and kill recappers. I concede that they don't share the all-purpose-utility that jps have, as jps can be used for rushes and onos chasing and general map control. it seems exos are best for specific pushes, or again, lane blockers, great for focusing down said lerk/fades. So yes, I think they're viable in the right context, so that might be rejected given the wording of the poll. But really... arcs are only viable when they're needed, flamethrowers are highly situational, depending on the focus of a push - jps can be situational as well, mines, obs, etc...

    It's like asking someone if they like apples; but dont judged based on taste, texture, nutrition, or whether it's because certain people benefit more from apples, or they're only good at certain times of the day, etc. To me, it makes any response a pointless response to a pointless question. Anyways, 5 pages later, at least it got some discussion going.
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  • WobWob Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Posts: 485 Advanced user
    Yes
    Wob wrote: »
    Seeing as recent changes have been done on "feelings" I'd say a 50-50 split in the community shows a mechanic or feature is doing pretty well. The fact that it current sits 58-42 in favour of viability only justifies that exos "feel" viable.

    I don't like that reasoning but apparently that's what it takes to change things

    I voted for yes, that doesn't mean I think exos as a mechanic are doing well.

    Silence! We only look for 50-50 and feels in this community!
    .trixX.coolitic
  • BicsumBicsum Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    2cough wrote: »
    Exos are viable - if you plan to push w/ exos or if you need to fortify weak lanes when lifeforms pop and kill recappers. I concede that they don't share the all-purpose-utility that jps have, as jps can be used for rushes and onos chasing and general map control. it seems exos are best for specific pushes, or again, lane blockers, great for focusing down said lerk/fades. So yes, I think they're viable in the right context, so that might be rejected given the wording of the poll. But really... arcs are only viable when they're needed, flamethrowers are highly situational, depending on the focus of a push - jps can be situational as well, mines, obs, etc...

    I agree that exos are great for pushing, but I'd disagree with saying that exos are good for lane blocking. Since lane blocking is a team effort, which requires your team to rotate when changes happen (i.e. marine deaths, shifts in alien positioning), you need to be able to get around the map as fast as possible, which the exo is the worst option for, since it's slow and can not phase. It's not just about holding one lane, but about filling gaps fast enough or get in a good position in those gaps fast enough.

    The aliens will always avoid the exo lane and move around it, so, in theory, a lane blocking exo is pretty much not doing anything ever. Exos have to force a reaction by pushing (a hive) or they're useless. Just like GLs/FTs.

    With LMG/SG/HMG you have the flexibility to push and pull out when you notice you'll fail. For example when you push and in the meantime you drop down to 2 RTs, because your push takes too long.
    Had you bought GLs/FTs/exos, you'd have to throw most of that stuff away, because you can't properly laneblock and recap with it.

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  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    yes i don't disagree that a runnin marine is better, with beter solo weapons, but i cant tell you how many fades and lerks i have cut off as an exo while floating between two tps, lane blocking. is it ideal in comp play? no, thats essentially being a man down, but in pubs this definitely is effective.
    Bicsum
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    Wob wrote: »
    Wob wrote: »
    Seeing as recent changes have been done on "feelings" I'd say a 50-50 split in the community shows a mechanic or feature is doing pretty well. The fact that it current sits 58-42 in favour of viability only justifies that exos "feel" viable.

    I don't like that reasoning but apparently that's what it takes to change things

    I voted for yes, that doesn't mean I think exos as a mechanic are doing well.

    Silence! We only look for 50-50 and feels in this community!
    Haha well while I do think buffing exo isnt the correct way, I dont know if its such a bad idea to try to make marines comeback easier.
    Depends on was aliens being "more powerful" late game really intended by the devs (rather than a flaw of design)? And if so is it fundamental / is it worth keeping?
    Considering apparently most marines feel they will lose regardless what they do past the 15 minutes mark, it might just be a unfun mechanic rather than raw balance.


    Post edited by RevanCorana on
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    No
    Depends on was aliens being "more powerful" late game really intended by the devs (rather than a flaw of design)? And if so is it fundamental / is it worth keeping?

    I mostly agree with this. I don't mind either side being more powerful during different parts of the game, so long as they don't have an overwhelming advantage. Depending on how the round progresses, one may have to try different strategies in order to play to their own strengths as well as their opponents weaknesses.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes
    Yea, and I dont know if it has anything to do with "res snowballing"
    I think what relates to that however is the fact that in the late game aliens particularly skulks have a much easier time dodging marines to go resbiting backres which could lead to the feeling that aliens have more RT late game idk.

    Also another thing to consider is the fact that marines aiming requires more precision than aliens so it follows logically that marines end up "tired" faster than aliens that is lose accuracy and focus in the late game.

    And also let's not forget the fact that aliens have literally game ending techs shortly after they reach 3 hives, contamination, stomp, xeno. Marines don't have an equally powerful tool (I suppose that is so because aliens cannot "turtle" like marines therefore theres no practical need for that). With that in mind though I definitely see where they come from with the idea of buffing exos, the marine most late game tech. But I'd rather see a entirely new endgame tech for marines, like a tactical nuke or something (marine version of contamination basically). Because you dont want exos to become unkillable.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    No
    The game has been designed since B250 for aliens to win at 3 hives. There is a soft timer in game. Marines must win before the aliens grow too strong with tech and too many lifeforms. You can slow the timer by killing res or lifeforms, but the timer still exists.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes
    Yea so basically they should undo that first if they want to undo the late game alien advantage instead of buffing random things to try to compensate.

    As I proposed before, look at the stats of late game winrate, after removing from the data sample rounds where aliens win while having 3 hives. Im not sure if that's possible tho.



    coolitic
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes
    And regarding marine turtles (which can last a very long time, further artificially increasing aliens late game winrate, because aliens themselves usually cannot turtle at all) why not make it so if one team has no RT they automatically lose after x amount of time. That would put to rest any kind of turtle. Yes I know turtles can be fun to some
    matrix-revolutions-24.jpg
    but it can also fuck up the stats
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Members Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Yes
    It does count
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  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    No
    Nordic wrote: »
    Marines must win before the aliens grow too strong with tech and too many lifeforms. You can slow the timer by killing res or lifeforms, but the timer still exists.
    Makes you wonder if they should actually communicate this intention in the game somewhere

    It is not just where but how? How do you communicate that without being intrusive like the old pop up videos?

    The tutorials need to be kept as short as they are to remain accessible. Advanced tutorials wouldn't get used enough.

    There are a lot of things that should be better communicated.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FLMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Posts: 123 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    Nordic wrote: »
    Marines must win before the aliens grow too strong with tech and too many lifeforms. You can slow the timer by killing res or lifeforms, but the timer still exists.
    Makes you wonder if they should actually communicate this intention in the game somewhere

    Imo a lot of pub games lack the right kind of early game pressure on marines, getting so caught up in the FPS part of the game (mostly rookies) that they overlook the RTS aspects of the game completely, just charging forward blindly onto the map. It is the RTS part of the game that allows aliens to become so tough to deal with late game.

    This involves but is not limited to:

    Not enough early RT pressure
    Little to no active lane blocking (proper lane blocking is what keeps sly skulks away from your RT's)
    Little use of the the map (a leading factor to the lane blocking issue)
    Large early pushes where everyone is on one side of the map or another
    Staying in the same spot for to long without rotating forces around the map (another factor to the lane blocking issue)
    Walking into hives and not targeting key structures (shooting at a hydras or skulks instead of a gorge tunnel, spur or something of value)
    Allowing early gorge tunnels/forward bases to stay uncontested in strategic parts of the map (this wreaks havoc on your RT's and temporally nullifies lane blocking)

    You really need to grind into peoples heads that this is an RTS game first, FPS second.

    Post edited by G_Lock on
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  • meatmachinemeatmachine South EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    Yes
    Nordic wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Marines must win before the aliens grow too strong with tech and too many lifeforms. You can slow the timer by killing res or lifeforms, but the timer still exists.
    Makes you wonder if they should actually communicate this intention in the game somewhere

    It is not just where but how? How do you communicate that without being intrusive like the old pop up videos?

    The tutorials need to be kept as short as they are to remain accessible. Advanced tutorials wouldn't get used enough.

    There are a lot of things that should be better communicated.

    Do we KNOW that advanced tutorials wouldn't get used enough? How much is enough?
    That said, I think the answer to where is literally anywhere, and that would be an improvement on the current state (which is, they are communicated nowhere). I'll give some examples of possible wheres; somewhere in a tutorial containing the basic win conditions, at the start of a round, at the end of a lost round, inscribed into the butt of the marine rifle. etc etc

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  • .trixX..trixX. BudapestMembers Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Posts: 861 Advanced user
    Yes
    inscribed into the butt of the marine rifle
    Yes please! x)

    There have been a few of us demanding loading-screen hints for a while... They don't have to be images, just the basic text on the bottom while the game is loading. The devs should advertise the most important concepts about the game there.
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
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  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    No
    .trixX. wrote: »
    inscribed into the butt of the marine rifle
    Yes please! x)

    There have been a few of us demanding loading-screen hints for a while... They don't have to be images, just the basic text on the bottom while the game is loading. The devs should advertise the most important concepts about the game there.

    There actually used to be some. Dunno if the are still there, they turned themselves off when you disabled rookie mode. However, they were extremely basic, like "Hold E to build marine structures".
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    No
    .trixX. wrote: »
    inscribed into the butt of the marine rifle
    Yes please! x)

    There have been a few of us demanding loading-screen hints for a while... They don't have to be images, just the basic text on the bottom while the game is loading. The devs should advertise the most important concepts about the game there.

    There actually used to be some. Dunno if the are still there, they turned themselves off when you disabled rookie mode. However, they were extremely basic, like "Hold E to build marine structures".

    Erm, aren't loading-screen hints supposed to help with the more advanced/less obvious concepts and techniques? As opposed to basic controls?
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


    .trixX.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,468 Advanced user
    No
    coolitic wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    inscribed into the butt of the marine rifle
    Yes please! x)

    There have been a few of us demanding loading-screen hints for a while... They don't have to be images, just the basic text on the bottom while the game is loading. The devs should advertise the most important concepts about the game there.

    There actually used to be some. Dunno if the are still there, they turned themselves off when you disabled rookie mode. However, they were extremely basic, like "Hold E to build marine structures".

    Erm, aren't loading-screen hints supposed to help with the more advanced/less obvious concepts and techniques? As opposed to basic controls?

    I guess philosophies differ on that.

    I'm playing through the Long War mod for XCOM right now, and it communicates some extremely advanced and hidden, but crucial gameplay concepts only through loading screens - which I often don't even get to read fully, because I have SSDs.

    So... if you put important information on loading screens, at least go with the "press button to dismiss screen" route, because otherwise a lot of people might miss it.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
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  • meatmachinemeatmachine South EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    edited February 2017
    Yes
    Importantly for NS2, I think if loading screen hints were a thing, the implementation matters soooo so much.
    Like you could half-ass it with some boring old words, or you could full-boss it with some words and animations, to more accurately convey concepts like map positioning, laneblocking etc.

    But UWE would never do that, they're too scared, heh heh heh
    /reversepsychology


    I guess you could say this thread about exosuits has derailed somewhat, eh?
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