Alien buffs soon?

245

Comments

  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Still, if the problem is the lack of expirience / team work, then buffing aliens is not the solution,

    Definatly.

    And the only way to gain experience is to play
    And in order to continue playing, you need motivation
    And this motivation must have more weight than the de-movitations factors inherent to any learning curve of anything (be it a video game, sport, music, whatever)

    Each of these threads ends up in detailed specific aspects, but the big picture is lost : How to keep new players playing and manage this game's demographic ?

    I like the ideas that would make the situations more intuitives, these exclamation marks (that in order to avoïd spamming and trolling maybe should be allowed to experienced players based on hours played, or, why not, players acreddited to use them by the community)
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    edited July 2016
    I've recently noticed the extra badges that you can select on the game menu. I think they are quite dumb... What did I get them for? What do they symbolize? The only thing I recognized was a slice of orange... (without golden tequila and cinnamon, which is heresy). I was playing on linux until recently, where the main menu was bugged, so im not sure how long they've been in.

    They should expand on that, so players receive badges (with corresponding achievements?) when they play the game right.
    Like, moving through the map with teammates in close vicinity (packplay).
    Biting RTs when marines have high KD ratio
    Attacking one target at the same time with others

    These available achievements should be presented to the player beforehand, so they know what to do in order to get them. Maybe add elaborate descriptions why you do those things
  • halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
    Lack of res biting has always been a problem on pubs.

    If you think about it, the game doesn't teach new players to res bite at all. There's no obvious incentive to do it. While a harvester very obviously screams "ALIEN TERRITORY" and fuels an inner fire of wanting to destroy an enemy structure, an extractor blends in with the environment pretty much perfectly.

    Now, if extractors had some kind of obnoxious animation/texture/sound effect/particle effect or whatever, you might just have one less problem.

    As for new players not going lerk/fade: oh well...
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    How abouts sounds and decals clearly indicating you are doing good to the hivemind on res biting ?
    Actually, it just a bite sound and a bar, doesn't feel any different than when you bite a wall.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I've recently noticed the extra badges that you can select on the game menu. I think they are quite dumb... What did I get them for? What do they symbolize? The only thing I recognized was a slice of orange... (without golden tequila and cinnamon, which is heresy). I was playing on linux until recently, where the main menu was bugged, so im not sure how long they've been in.

    That's a mod.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2016
    @halfofaheaven
    And how are animation/texture/sound effect/particle effect help that skulks avoiding goups of multiple rines to bite the res behind them?
    Most players didnt understand the role of the skulk, wich is: scouting, parasiting and resbiting.
    And it looks like they didnt learn this role during there 25-30 hrs on a rookie only server.

    But this is not only a rookie problem.
    I know countless players with up to 1000hrs who running around brainless on the map only to suicide nonstop on whatever they do.
    They are thinking: The skulk is free, so it doesnt care if i die.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    People need to stop automatically assuming that Marine's ability to stomp is always due to Aliens not playing correctly. Sure there are times where this is the case, but it's nowhere near as often as some of you are making it seem.


    A player can spend the entire game doing nothing but biting res... yet fail to actually kill the extractors because the Marine team is insanely good at defending... Then get raged at for never even trying to bite res... I've had games where I have between 20,000-30,000 structure damage, and still get yelled at for not biting res when it's literally all I've done the entire game.

    Likewise a pro level Marine player can slaughter groups of 4-5 skulks time and time again.. then someone on Aliens will start raging "don't attack him alone" when at no point has anyone in the game even gone near that Marine without at least 3-4 other Aliens backing them up.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I've recently noticed the extra badges that you can select on the game menu. I think they are quite dumb... What did I get them for? What do they symbolize? The only thing I recognized was a slice of orange... (without golden tequila and cinnamon, which is heresy). I was playing on linux until recently, where the main menu was bugged, so im not sure how long they've been in.

    That's a mod.

    Thanks, I didn't know :]
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    The positivism here is overwhelming.
    I give up.
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    edited July 2016
    SupaFred wrote: »
    dePARA wrote: »
    I asked Supafred cause he is running wonitor on his Thirsty onos servers.
    Looks like Aliens winning around 25% on the 18 slot server there now.

    Here are the win rates per server version from TTO 18 and 22 Wonitor link
    The same stats for Wooza's playground Wonitor link

    There are no balance changes in the patch notes but it looks like something has changed.

    WE FOUND A CONSPIRACY! THEY ARE HIDING SOMETHING FROM US! x)

    But srsly, those graphs exactly match my experience the last 1 week

    EDIT:

    Skill levels are also interesting, although I'm not sure about the conclusion:
    http://www.apheriox.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=version&y=averageSkill&t=serverId&plotType=lines&version_ge=300
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Personally i find this graph from TTO interesting: http://thirstyonos.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=winner&y=count&t=serverId

    From a quick glance it appears when shuffled marines have been winning about 500 more games than aliens (3000 vs 2500)

    Comparing this to the ready room quitters menu you get this: http://thirstyonos.com/wonitor/configurator.html#x=numPlayers2&y=numPlayers1&s=numPlayersRR&t=winner&plotType=bar&sizeRef=0.01

    I wish there was a way to check the elo of the players who do decide to leave, but it does look like when the server is full alien players do tend to f4 more leaving them at a player disadvantage, i would not be surprised if the player that did decide to f4 was the highest or in the top 3 simply from personal expierence and as a result leave aliens crippled.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2016
    And they didnt do this at build 304 or in any build before @migalski, makes sense.
    And no, i cant count the games where i was the only one with over 2000elo as alien, didnt f4 to rr and the only thing i saw till 3 min mark was skulks dying like flies or running around brainless.
    Basicly @Blrg nailed it.

    And btw.: Im sure if other serveradmins would show us there stats here, they would look the same.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited July 2016
    Wow, this shift in early game marine wins is really weird.

    Is it possible that something was changed via the uwe balance mod?
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=687882379
    Update: 20. Juli um 20:06 Uhr

    Update: 20. Juli um 18:59 Uhr

    Update: 27. Juni um 16:50 Uhr

    Update: 26. Juni um 19:24 Uhr

    Update: 26. Juni um 19:13 Uhr

    Update: 26. Juni um 18:18 Uhr

    Update: 23. Juni um 10:52 Uhr

    Update: 23. Juni um 10:15 Uhr

    edit: nevermind, those dates don't really match, I think.

    Maybe some of the former comp players got bored of Overwatch and are now returning to pub, increasing the overall skill level, making it harder to win as aliens.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2016
    These are average graphs over all builds @Nordic.
    So they didnt show what happen since 305.

    Im sure player like this are one of the reasons of the last marine stomps:
    http://hive.naturalselection2.com/profile/355797688
    This cancer can only stopped by admins doing there job.
    Or an mod that compares hrs on hive with KDR. And if the steam profile is private (all smurf profiles are), the player has under 50 hrs on hive, a KDR over 2 it should be banned automatic.

    After that, lets compare the win/loss ratios again.

    if an admin is willing todo this: in this discussion you can find a couple of smurf accounts, just ban them.
    http://steamcommunity.com/app/4920/discussions/0/405692224229544189/
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2016
    Yes Depara, that is all that is shown on the front page. But if you go to the configuration page like supafred did you can see the balance by build number. I updated the links in the previous post. I just copy and pasted the ending part of the links. I did not check if they were the correct page. You got to do some work yourself depara.
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    A lot of skulks just run on the floor and use walls for wall jumping, running on strait planes most of the time (which will get you obliterated by anyone who can aim). Never really see people zigzagging/ a - d strafing on walls, ceiling or inverted wall jumping from ceiling to wall. The more times you change direction/per second the harder it is it hit you (which is something that is harder to do while in the air) so less jumping when in close range is better. Rapid a - d strafing with quick mouse movements to make that strafing a bit curvy while not jumping during an engagement is NOT something a lot of skulks do. Keep in mind that line of sight is also incredibly important but most skulks make a b line to the first marine they come into view of and don't really take los into account. People keep saying you need better bite accuracy, i think people need to learn to abuse skulk movement more abstractly.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I find the whole topic funny to say the least.
    Aliens do not need buffs, they need nerfs. They have been getting buffs, and a lot of it.

    So why do marines win so much? Its as many have stated already.
    At the moment, in most games, most players on alien play abysmal. I would not even call it bad, its truly abysmal.

    Of course you have players who play correctly. And yes marines is easier to pick up and more forgiving. But playing a whole evening of ns2 maybe produces one or 2 good matches of alien play in hours of play.

    Some examples, although not limited to:
    * Going in one by one.
    * No dodging.
    * Straightlining.
    * Going lifeforms late, very late. (lerk at fade res)
    * Not going lifeforms at all.
    * Not defending any res.
    * No resbiting. (Often due to suicide skulk tactics due to lack of lifeform)
    * Ignoring repeated calls and suggestions to become any attacking lifeform not skulk.
    * Massive gorging and the often complaint 'defend me' when there are are as much gorges as skulks.
    * Stupid, near insane pushes. (Lets wait util marines kill location x, only when x dies we push y. Because pushing y when marines are busy would make sense.

    Now I am all for rookies and learning and not knowing basics.. But these new rookies flat out ignore you. You can ask politely, shout, explain, say do anything.. They just do not listen.
    Its not due to language, they clearly speak english.

    Another example.. folk complaining about lack of defense on our RTs. (note a skulk with 60+ res complains)
    You repeat friendly that its due to everyone being skulk and marines having loads of upgrades. Simple english right, no special ns2 terms.
    Skulk person complains again in perfect, although angry, english.
    Repeat this process with you explaining in various ways, sentences and words that a bunch of not grouping skulks will not defend RTs vs marines with w2/a2/shotguns.
    It will not register.. They do not care. They say we (read anyone but them) is doing poorly defending RTs, and do not listen to any reason why you can not defend it.


    Buffs are not the answer. Finding out why these new players are being so blind to reason IS your fix.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2016
    I don't think the rookies are any different. They have always been... let's just call it unresponsive. If a change in demographic playing this game is the cause of the poor balance, then I would argue it is that higher skilled players have left. I have nothing to confirm this opinion though.

    Also, I finally got a chance to look through those wonitor links I gave.
    Out of the 4 working wonitor sites (TGNS, Wooza, TTO, and DG) there were 2438 games recorded in b304 and 1097 games recorded in b305 at the time of writing this.

    Overall b304 had a 48% alien win rate.
    Overall b305 had a 34% alien win rate.
    That is a 14% decrease.

    TGNS went from a 67% to 56% alien win rate in b305. An 11 % decrease.
    Wooza went from a 53% to a 29% alien win rate in b305. A 24% decrease.
    TTO 18 went from a 49% to a 32% alien win rate. An 18% decrase.
    TTO 22 went from a 53%% to a 29% alien win rate. A 24% decrease.
    TTO rookie went from a 37% to a 30% alien win rate. A 7% decrease.
    DG went from a 51% to a 43% alien win rate. An 8% decrease.
    DG rookie went from a 37% to a 59% alien win rate. A 22% increase.

    For further reference the following skills seem to have the following average skill level on them. I got these values by approximating the average skill development from each server's wonitor page.
    Wooza's ~1200
    TacticalGamer ~1400
    DungeonGaming ~1100
    DungeonGaming Rookie only ~550
    ThirstyOnos #18 ~1400
    ThirstyOnos #22 ~1250
    ThirstyOnos Rookie Only ~650

    Please recognize that these 4 servers, only make up a portion of the games that are played. If we included all servers, win rates might be different than these statistics imply.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2016
    Just check where the smurf from above play, then you have your answer.
    I dont say this one player is the reason. Its just one from many,
    Just ban this cancer on your servers and you help NS2 in multiple ways:
    - Better balanced rounds
    - They have to buy a another copy aka more money for UWE (well, some have multiple smurf accounts already)

    Cause there where no balance changes in 305 its the only logical reason for the shift in favor of marines.

    Mabe Blizzard didnt listen to these dumb aholes and now they are pissed of OW, dont know.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Nordic wrote: »
    TGNS went from a 67% to 56% alien win rate in b305. An 11 % decrease.
    Wooza went from a 53% to a 29% alien win rate in b305. A 24% decrease.
    TTO 18 went from a 49% to a 32% alien win rate. An 18% decrase.
    TTO 22 went from a 53%% to a 29% alien win rate. A 24% decrease.
    TTO rookie went from a 37% to a 30% alien win rate. A 7% decrease.
    DG went from a 51% to a 43% alien win rate. An 8% decrease.
    DG rookie went from a 37% to a 59% alien win rate. A 22% increase.

    I find these figures fascinating. Interesting to see that double digit decreases in alien win rate seen in all but 3 cases.

    2 of them rookie servers, one only showing a 7% decrease, one a 22% increase. Admittedly the 7% could be considered the most it could drop as aliens already had a low win rate on TTO rookie. The 22% increase is interesting, although, likely to indicate returning gamers as already pointed out, unless they run some other mods.

    It funny that these 3 discrepancies all occur on servers with averages of 1100 or below, while the 2 digit decreases all feature higher average skill scores.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I did not include sample numbers. Each server had a different amount of games. You can go check for yourselves in the links.
    @Foxy What do you think of the DG rookie server increase?
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    What @Deck_ said. Thousand times over.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2016
    Our "funny" smurf from above is playing most of the time on the TTO servers. What do you think where he was starting with his new account?
    Right, on the TTO rookie only server.
    It just doesnt make any sense that one rookie only server has a a 22% increase and another a 18% decrase.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Again, don't make the game easier. Make it easier to understand what is a better way to play. That should be the direction of ns2. Teach, don't make the test easier.

    I would really love to hear your suggestions on this matter, as it's something we often discuss. We already have improved tutorials and visual indicators, what else would you suggest?
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
    Obraxis wrote: »
    I would really love to hear your suggestions on this matter, as it's something we often discuss. We already have improved tutorials and visual indicators, what else would you suggest?

    Add new achievements and display those on the main menu with detailed description why they are good practice

    For eg:
    Moving through the map with teammates in close vicinity
    Attacking one target at the same time with others
    Biting RTs when marines have higher KD ratio

    Sure, there are tons of good practices that just cant be relayed through the game, only by speech or essays.
    But cmon guys, its not THAT hard to improve its, fire up a spliff, spend some time in an isolaton tank or smth :P
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2016
    Obraxis wrote: »
    Deck_ wrote: »
    Again, don't make the game easier. Make it easier to understand what is a better way to play. That should be the direction of ns2. Teach, don't make the test easier.

    I would really love to hear your suggestions on this matter, as it's something we often discuss. We already have improved tutorials and visual indicators, what else would you suggest?

    What about in-game perks / innate abilities that trigger automatically when more than one alien is present in a room together, say for example 3 skulks would benefit from a slight increase in bite damage, movement speed and health, this would encourage players to work together in the early game when they are at their weakest.

    Pack mentality / hive mind if you will, which fits in nicely with lore.

    Challenge for you now is, how do you convey this effect in a player friendly manner.
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