Simplifying NS2 - Thoughts on Gameplay (feedback wanted!) - Natural Selection 2

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  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited December 2015
    krOoze wrote: »
    @NousWanderer Still F2P seems like a bad fit to me. Is there really any successful precedent?
    Dota and clones: you pay to access classes and to have more effective stuff sooner
    Robocraft and clones / creative games: you pay to be able to build more interesting stuff sooner
    FPS/Team shooters or plane/tank/spacecraft battles: you pay for better ammo, guns, ships, abilities and whatnot with higher DMG multiplier
    Hearthstone and clones, collector games: you pay to own stuff, that will make you stronger and win more frequently and you pay per round

    should I go on? Where do you want to fit your NS2.5 in there? Give me an example of similar successful F2P game.


    TF2?

    Path of Exile?

    NS2 already has already been on sale for like $0-$5 in some of the bundles and other events. If the game had a higher playerbase, then they would probably make more money from skins than they ever will from future NS2 sales.
  • bonagebonage Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    GORGEous wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    @NousWanderer Still F2P seems like a bad fit to me. Is there really any successful precedent?
    Dota and clones: you pay to access classes and to have more effective stuff sooner
    Robocraft and clones / creative games: you pay to be able to build more interesting stuff sooner
    FPS/Team shooters or plane/tank/spacecraft battles: you pay for better ammo, guns, ships, abilities and whatnot with higher DMG multiplier
    Hearthstone and clones, collector games: you pay to own stuff, that will make you stronger and win more frequently and you pay per round

    should I go on? Where do you want to fit your NS2.5 in there? Give me an example of similar successful F2P game.


    TF2?

    Path of Exile?

    NS2 already has already been on sale for like $0-$5 in some of the bundles and other events. If the game had a higher playerbase, then they would probably make more money from skins than they ever will from future NS2 sales.

    TF2 is a bad example to use - when that game went F2P it still had a relatively large active player base. It also has decent performance across all setups, the marketing budget of valve, the association of valve as a label, and more. I cant speak for Path of Exile as i never played/followed that.

    Another game worth mentioning is Dirty Bomb, which is a F2P FPS and has all the bells and whistles like matchmaking, anti-hack, decent performance, decent gameplay, a competitive scene, cosmetic micro transactions etc. Yet despite this, the game hasn't grown or sustained numbers. It had a spike at launch, and has been on a steady decline.

    There is no guarantee that F2P is the magic answer to boosting player numbers. Could it help? Probably, but I still think a low entry/price point is needed to regulate hackers/trolls among other things. csgo has the right approach in this regard.
  • krOozekrOoze Join Date: 2014-04-24 Member: 195593Members
    edited December 2015
    @GORGEous To nitpick: TF lives from the successes of HL and PoE from the failure of Diablo 3.
    But I guess I live in the dark past of success of unethical F2P games. In the end, we have no choice but to trust the developer, no matter what financing option they choose.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    bonage wrote: »
    TF2 is a bad example to use - when that game went F2P it still had a relatively large active player base. It also has decent performance across all setups, the marketing budget of valve, the association of valve as a label, and more. I cant speak for Path of Exile as i never played/followed that.

    Another game worth mentioning is Dirty Bomb, which is a F2P FPS and has all the bells and whistles like matchmaking, anti-hack, decent performance, decent gameplay, a competitive scene, cosmetic micro transactions etc. Yet despite this, the game hasn't grown or sustained numbers. It had a spike at launch, and has been on a steady decline.
    In the latter case, I think one important point is that Dirty Bomb isn't a very good game. For what it's worth.
    bonage wrote: »
    There is no guarantee that F2P is the magic answer to boosting player numbers. Could it help? Probably, but I still think a low entry/price point is needed to regulate hackers/trolls among other things. csgo has the right approach in this regard.
    I agree with this in principle, too, but the issue is that the game is already $9.99 and has been offered much lower than that for extended periods. There's a sustainability question there.
  • GitroGitro UK Join Date: 2015-12-11 Member: 209878Members
    Eclipse_ wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    ^ Nah, I am pretty good at killing skulks with it. Against liveforms it is only useful at disorienting them while your comrades take care of them.

    Wasn't the whole point of the flamethrower to drain energy, to be a counter against energy-dependant life forms?

    Flamethrower is extremelly effective agains buildings. In some maps i can make a well defended ara as gorge that will hold up to 2 or 3 marines with only me as gorge. Assuming that marines have machine gun and 1 shotgun.
    But if only one marine comes in with a flamethrower, all hell breaks lose. My crags die INSTANTLY while shotgun takes 1 or 2 shots to kill, my hydras stop attacking him, the crag stops healing me.

    If i see a flamer going into my base, i just bail. No chance against that
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    bonage wrote: »
    GORGEous wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    @NousWanderer Still F2P seems like a bad fit to me. Is there really any successful precedent?
    Dota and clones: you pay to access classes and to have more effective stuff sooner
    Robocraft and clones / creative games: you pay to be able to build more interesting stuff sooner
    FPS/Team shooters or plane/tank/spacecraft battles: you pay for better ammo, guns, ships, abilities and whatnot with higher DMG multiplier
    Hearthstone and clones, collector games: you pay to own stuff, that will make you stronger and win more frequently and you pay per round

    should I go on? Where do you want to fit your NS2.5 in there? Give me an example of similar successful F2P game.


    TF2?

    Path of Exile?

    NS2 already has already been on sale for like $0-$5 in some of the bundles and other events. If the game had a higher playerbase, then they would probably make more money from skins than they ever will from future NS2 sales.
    Another game worth mentioning is Dirty Bomb, which is a F2P FPS and has all the bells and whistles like matchmaking, anti-hack, decent performance, decent gameplay, a competitive scene, cosmetic micro transactions etc. Yet despite this, the game hasn't grown or sustained numbers. It had a spike at launch, and has been on a steady decline.
    Dirty bomb is first of all in beta, not released yet.

    But actually many of the things you mention are.. broken.

    Matchmaking is hardly any better than the one we attempted in NS2. Anti-hack is quite controversial to say the least. The performance is only good with a custom potato config. Gameplaywise it's great.

    The competitive scene, never really had much luck. The spectator tools suck, there are no private servers, other than the ones that SD provide - which means that in every official match, they had to have an admin present just to pause at a moments notice. And the dirtycups and dbnation were always understaffed.

    cosmetic micro transactions, I personally never gave a crap about, but reddit is constantly bitching about that, so idk, something is wrong with it.. I guess?

    But most importantly, the db community blows. They are a bunch of whiners about every little trivial matter.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think NS2 is ready for F2P YET. But NS2 has a lot more going for it, in spite of its own shortcomings, than dirty bomb does.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Many of the problems described in this forum are actually symptoms of a bigger problem. The issue with NS2 isn't that top players can decimate the competition, but rather that they're often forced to. Why? The NS2 community is heavily compressed. By this I mean to say that there are a limited number of populated servers to choose from at a given time, and highly skilled players invariably wind up facing off with rookies - even if they do their utmost to balance teams - as a result. We can't expect all or even most upper-level players to stick to gathers, private servers, or captain's games.

    After offering my help services to them, if they do not answer or respond (mic), I consider they know what they're talking about. The fun thing is that they stack before the vets do. So FET cannot work at 100% as the players are already in teams.

    This is exactly what a NS2 player shouldn't do. I think the tutorial should include a section to tell them: "Hey try to listen to what other players say" (like get back to RR), or un-mute all (as NS is a Strategy game), things like that.
  • GitroGitro UK Join Date: 2015-12-11 Member: 209878Members
    By the way guys I have a suggestion that you could put on the game start tips, or new player tutorial.

    Since my aim sucks ass and I can't kill shit, I main as gorge and it profoundly annoys me when half the team also goes gorge and have no idea what they are doing besides the heal.

    As a gorge, if you are trying to take an area of the map with a long tunnel, put some god damn Clogs in the middle of the corridor. Stack 2 clogs on top of each other in the middle of the corridor and keep doing this while pushing with skulks.
    This clogs are very important for your skulks, it gives them cover from marine weapons making them able to rush through a marine camped corridor. They also prevent a marine rush because of the harder terrain.

    So add something on the newbie tips related to this. Clogs are so important and they are free! If you go in with your skulks into a room. just make 2 clog towers, it reduces marine line of sight as well as providing cover. I wish I could put more clogs up.
  • bonagebonage Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162230Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited December 2015
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    bonage wrote: »
    GORGEous wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    @NousWanderer Still F2P seems like a bad fit to me. Is there really any successful precedent?
    Dota and clones: you pay to access classes and to have more effective stuff sooner
    Robocraft and clones / creative games: you pay to be able to build more interesting stuff sooner
    FPS/Team shooters or plane/tank/spacecraft battles: you pay for better ammo, guns, ships, abilities and whatnot with higher DMG multiplier
    Hearthstone and clones, collector games: you pay to own stuff, that will make you stronger and win more frequently and you pay per round

    should I go on? Where do you want to fit your NS2.5 in there? Give me an example of similar successful F2P game.


    TF2?

    Path of Exile?

    NS2 already has already been on sale for like $0-$5 in some of the bundles and other events. If the game had a higher playerbase, then they would probably make more money from skins than they ever will from future NS2 sales.
    Another game worth mentioning is Dirty Bomb, which is a F2P FPS and has all the bells and whistles like matchmaking, anti-hack, decent performance, decent gameplay, a competitive scene, cosmetic micro transactions etc. Yet despite this, the game hasn't grown or sustained numbers. It had a spike at launch, and has been on a steady decline.
    Dirty bomb is first of all in beta, not released yet.

    But actually many of the things you mention are.. broken.

    Matchmaking is hardly any better than the one we attempted in NS2. Anti-hack is quite controversial to say the least. The performance is only good with a custom potato config. Gameplaywise it's great.

    The competitive scene, never really had much luck. The spectator tools suck, there are no private servers, other than the ones that SD provide - which means that in every official match, they had to have an admin present just to pause at a moments notice. And the dirtycups and dbnation were always understaffed.

    cosmetic micro transactions, I personally never gave a crap about, but reddit is constantly bitching about that, so idk, something is wrong with it.. I guess?

    But most importantly, the db community blows. They are a bunch of whiners about every little trivial matter.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think NS2 is ready for F2P YET. But NS2 has a lot more going for it, in spite of its own shortcomings, than dirty bomb does.

    Whatever your opinion of DB might be, it is still one of the closest examples of an indie level f2p game not being particularly effective. Everything you have pointed out that is an issue with DB has been seen in NS2 at one point or another over the last 3 years, and some still remain a problem. You cant ignore DB as a comparison simply because it's a different game with it's own problems - the similarities are still there.

    Point is, there's no guarantee that f2p will/won't work for ns2 in 2016. UWE could try it, it could fail, or it could succeed. My gut tells me it wouldn't do much at all and that it would be a much closer result to DB than it would be to TF2.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    edited December 2015
    I really think that it is time for ACTION and less words. Lets put some of these ideas into practice right now and see how the game turns out. I think the community size has hit rock bottom already, so there is no way we can lose players with any changes that don't make the successful transition from this discussion to implementation. But we do have a chance to gain players if some of the changes discussed hit the mark.

    This thread has sparked huge enthusiasm and interest from old, new, and retired (lurker) players alike. Let's not waste the momentum that's been built up.

    Enough talk, now it is time to DO. Let's put into practice what @Hugh said about fast iteration!
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    I read through the document. I come back to play NS2 every now and then because it's a fun game. However... oversimplifying the game is just going to turn me away from wanting to come back or recommend this game to friends.

    Cysts and Power Nodes have always been complained about but I fear that removing them and just leaving them in for, aesthetics will change a lot of what the game is about. Blocking a room to prevent cyst pathing is incredibly crucial to preventing Aliens from expanding. However the skill level of certain marines and overall low-skill level of Skulks prevents Aliens from being able to properly expand past early game very common. I think the problem lies more with certain maps and spawns just severly limiting expansion, such as ns2_veil and Sub-Sector. It is surrounded by two very marine-favored spots (in terms of pub play). It should honestly have an additional path for cysts to come out and something should seriously be done about overlook. Either way... cysts and powernodes should seriously stay.

    As for audio ques... I think there should be some visual ques as well. Such as the center of the screen (IE. Need Commander) it should say... "Second Hive Spotted!" or "Armor 1 Engaged" or something.

    Increasing RT build time will further destroy pub play. A snowballing team will snowball even more.

    Some food for thought but I don't want to write up a really huge post detailing everything since I'm sure someone(s) have already done so. A lot of these changes would out-right ruin the game for me if they were implemented... Seriously the problems lies with poor marketing, no matchmaking, and lack of knowledge advertised. There needs to be more handholding in information given to new players... not dumb things down. A lot of people ground Skulk because the game never tells them to jump... they just see other Skulks jump and learn that way but never know why other Skulks jump.
  • navazkanavazka Join Date: 2015-12-08 Member: 209825Members
    Gitro wrote: »
    As a gorge, if you are trying to take an area of the map with a long tunnel, put some god damn Clogs in the middle of the corridor. Stack 2 clogs on top of each other in the middle of the corridor and keep doing this while pushing with skulks.
    This clogs are very important for your skulks, it gives them cover from marine weapons making them able to rush through a marine camped corridor. They also prevent a marine rush because of the harder terrain.

    Little tips like these would be awesome to have in the integrated encyclopedia (there are already tips in the current main menu, but they don't concentrate on actual team play and what-is-good-for-the-whole-team tips too much). It could also be accessible from the evolve menu, once you select a particular lifeform. That would help rookies to learn what to do. (I have now 150 hours played and the aforementioned tip is eye-opening to me, I have never thought about it this way).

  • 3X4L73X4L7 Join Date: 2014-06-13 Member: 196510Members
    edited December 2015
    This is far off topic, but I want players who want a solid game... not a f2p game.
    If the dreams of UWE is to sell skins from the games they produce, then why should anyone invest time learning what Natural Selection is...

    Is NS2 free to play or is it pay once play?
    The limbo is why we don't have players, IMHO.

    Simplify this and maybe we can earn players whom have the faith to invest their time into this game.

    F2P, if you want F2P players,
    Limbo if you want no players...

    UWE has to place themselves before they sell NS3, but now I'm really off topic... Simplify what NS2 is, so that people can judge it and the developer for whom they must place their trust. Trust that this game isn't just a skin market. Trust that the game is updated for the players sake. Many has suggested the previous version as more fun. WHY? I'm not suggesting skins ruined it... The players who came for skin purchasing and the players who left to escape the hole opening up, maybe.

    What's important though is simplifing the perspective so that we can achieve players. Any players.

    LOOK I know this sounds like me just trying to whine/complain about the same issue I've had but...
    This is the issue with this game. If you don't want to hear this then I'll focus on something else like ping and netcode.

    Servers that would not allow higher pings would help greatly with perspective...When you can use it to your advantage on the marines to blow away any engaging lerk without a sg then the game seems broken. I seen this with 150 ping even.

    You all think this stuff goes unnoticed? Because it's Worse when new players cannot pinpoint why it's happening.

    This has been about perception. Thankyou.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    bonage wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    bonage wrote: »
    GORGEous wrote: »
    krOoze wrote: »
    @NousWanderer Still F2P seems like a bad fit to me. Is there really any successful precedent?
    Dota and clones: you pay to access classes and to have more effective stuff sooner
    Robocraft and clones / creative games: you pay to be able to build more interesting stuff sooner
    FPS/Team shooters or plane/tank/spacecraft battles: you pay for better ammo, guns, ships, abilities and whatnot with higher DMG multiplier
    Hearthstone and clones, collector games: you pay to own stuff, that will make you stronger and win more frequently and you pay per round

    should I go on? Where do you want to fit your NS2.5 in there? Give me an example of similar successful F2P game.


    TF2?

    Path of Exile?

    NS2 already has already been on sale for like $0-$5 in some of the bundles and other events. If the game had a higher playerbase, then they would probably make more money from skins than they ever will from future NS2 sales.
    Another game worth mentioning is Dirty Bomb, which is a F2P FPS and has all the bells and whistles like matchmaking, anti-hack, decent performance, decent gameplay, a competitive scene, cosmetic micro transactions etc. Yet despite this, the game hasn't grown or sustained numbers. It had a spike at launch, and has been on a steady decline.
    Dirty bomb is first of all in beta, not released yet.

    But actually many of the things you mention are.. broken.

    Matchmaking is hardly any better than the one we attempted in NS2. Anti-hack is quite controversial to say the least. The performance is only good with a custom potato config. Gameplaywise it's great.

    The competitive scene, never really had much luck. The spectator tools suck, there are no private servers, other than the ones that SD provide - which means that in every official match, they had to have an admin present just to pause at a moments notice. And the dirtycups and dbnation were always understaffed.

    cosmetic micro transactions, I personally never gave a crap about, but reddit is constantly bitching about that, so idk, something is wrong with it.. I guess?

    But most importantly, the db community blows. They are a bunch of whiners about every little trivial matter.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think NS2 is ready for F2P YET. But NS2 has a lot more going for it, in spite of its own shortcomings, than dirty bomb does.

    Whatever your opinion of DB might be, it is still one of the closest examples of an indie level f2p game not being particularly effective. Everything you have pointed out that is an issue with DB has been seen in NS2 at one point or another over the last 3 years, and some still remain a problem. You cant ignore DB as a comparison simply because it's a different game with it's own problems - the similarities are still there.
    The comparison between NS2 and dirtybomb is very fair, I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to lay out the reasons why DB failed, so that we won't make the same mistakes for the NS2 revival.
  • 3X4L73X4L7 Join Date: 2014-06-13 Member: 196510Members
    edited December 2015
    If you cannot lure in the next generation, then it's time to make the next generation game.
    I'm just wondering if they prefer to pay once or have a marketplace in the game.
    UWE has choosen (from the start I guess) to have a marketplace in the game.
    Dirtybomb isn't TF or CS...Those games are from last generation, like NS1.

    I'm certain many have no issues with marketplaces inside of the game they play...I thought my generation did.

    At this point: I'm willing to pay to play to avoid having a marketplace in my game...
    This comes from a long path of hating pay to play (like wow) and still watch them aquire a marketplace (mount sells)...

    It's been like a bait and switch... To buy completed games without marketplaces.

    Well, as for computer requirements : some may get upgrades over the holiday. Which could be the other damning issue for Dirtybomb.
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Members, Constellation
    I think changing around cysts/power nodes to be more ancillary in function would be positive (or potentially eliminating them almost entirely). When the original discussions of territory control and atmosphere/lighting were discussed ages ago, I really believed that the res node structure would be ideal for controlling this. (extractor = powered :: harvester = unpowered + infested). The start of the game default would be a bit dimmer 'power save' lighting.

    This puts the focus back on the res node war instead of having a separate mechanic involved. This would mean that extractors/harvesters would not need power/infestation to function or be built. Each res node would be the 'capture point' for that area of that map.

    There could also be maps with null territory (no res node to control) that require special structures for capture (gorge tunnels/cysts or power packs). Most maps would not have any null territory though. This gives the mappers some additional capability when creating bottlenecks and special rooms.

    I really believe the parallel mechanic of the cysts/power nodes that currently exists is overly complex and confusing for new players.

  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Please don't offload cyst spreading to gorges, it's a tedious mechanic for commanders and it would be even more tedious to do it in first person again.

    The gorge is already the most duty loaded lifeform in the game as it is, if it has to do territory management as well we should just cut out the middleman and remove the alien commander so it can be a proper basebuilding lifeform again.
  • xtalxtal aka X-rayCat Join Date: 2009-06-28 Member: 67961Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited December 2015
    1) Address stomp issue:
    Increase skulk HP, so one marine can only kill maximum one and half of skulk, with combo of rifle and pistol clip. Decrease skulk speed for balance or other nerf.

    2) Add game tips during map loading.

    3) Don't show aliens on marines minimal until they're under-attack.
  • SamcaiSamcai Join Date: 2013-01-25 Member: 182050Members
    edited December 2015
    Hi ! I've been playing both NS and a lot of other FPS and RTS for a long time and I got some ideas :)

    ********* About Cyst and Power Node *********

    Cyst and Power Node have always been presented to us as a visual indicator of the control each team has over a territory. I think both mechanics went too far from that. Why not keep some of the utility, but let's keep it simple and beeing a choice.

    - Get rid of Cyst as they are. Use your idea of the auto-infestation to keep things simple for every player. Maybe change Cyst to a cloacked buildings that can only be build on infestation and who can cast Bone Wall and Rupture with cooldown and res cost. You keep the Khammender busy, enforce the idea that infestated places are dangerous for marines, and it's simple.

    - The Power Node mechanics as it is seems silly. Having a one and only weak spot for marine base (or any fortified base) is too harsh. It's too important for both teams and brings too enormous consequences (win or loose). More so we don't really know why we are (not) building them at the beginning of the game.

    So to me, we remove the link between Power Node and active buildings.
    You only need that Power Node up so:
    1) You have the lights on as fighting Aliens in the dark is a terrible idea.
    2) You can use the med-catalyst and so-on (or just reduce their cost in powered-up area) and crush the Aliens even more.
    3) The Comm can start new buildings (as ninja PG would be too violent and starting RT's too fast)

    Of course, every Power Node start down (except the two closests RT's from Marine Start). But they can now be quicker to build, and quicker to destroy as they are not that much important to the win/lose condition.

    With these changes, both mechanics will enforce the idea that: "I can see which territory my team is in control, and I am safer and stronger in it."


    ********* About the indivudual evolution *********

    I loved the way NS1's economy was working. But it was a looooong time ago, and a game which put so much weigh on your death is not good for entertainment. Like a lot of people mentionned, it's really a pity that the game allow you to lose in 1 minute the ressources you waited for 20 minutes. It only add way more frustration than any other game can give you when you die. You need to address this as it may be the most repulsive mechanics from the game. It would need a lot of balancing of course but I think that it could be solved by plenty differents ways. Here are somes propositions:

    Marines side:
    - The Commander have to upg every weapons in each armory. The prices are upped but the marines can now buy them for free. As every weapons serves a different purpose, it may not be that hard to balance. It is now a choice for the Comm and the marines and you do not have to call your banker to know if you may or may not buy this weapon that you may or may not lose 20 seconds later.

    Alien side:
    - I don't have a clear idea for this. Kinda liked the idea someone already told about lowering the price of the last lifeform you used. It is better than how it is now but it just tone down the frustration and not completly removed it. It may be harder to balance as the most expensives lifeforms in goods hands are always the best choice (except maybe for the supporting gorges and lerks).


    ********* Miscellanous *********
    - Maybe tune the economy to help come back happening, but the changes in death penalty I just proposed are already a big change so...
    - Remove the movement mechanics. It may enlarge the ego of those who master them, but the game is rich enough to live without it. It is really hard to know those things exists, to know how it works, and to do it. Moreso, it is simply horrible to play with your screen waving like you're in the middle of a hurricane.
    - Good idea to remove the tech structure for the aliens. But do not tie them to "strategic structures". They can die and it'll be painful to lose them. Moreso, if the chambers evolutions are useless without level 3 like it is now, why have you 3 levels for it ? Just tie the level 3 upgrades to Hive and we're good. Keep it simple. (Moreso, Marine's raid to destroy tech structures never happen or at least never happen to be succesful enough.
    - As a Skulk, I always found it stupid that the game ask me every time I spawn to upgrade again. I will use the same 99% of the time !!! (Carapace and Celerity anyone ?). So let me choose my upg before I spawn or at least give me a button to "Use the same upgrades as last time".

    Thx for reading :)
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.
  • SamcaiSamcai Join Date: 2013-01-25 Member: 182050Members
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    Of course, but these moments cover maybe 5-10% of your re-spawn. It does not have to be hardcode. And a "re-evolve button" would be faire enough as I said...
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    I think it would be fine with an increased spawn time due to gestating, this comes with a larger risk of having your egg destroyed and more damage being done to the hive.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    I think it would be fine with an increased spawn time due to gestating, this comes with a larger risk of having your egg destroyed and more damage being done to the hive.

    And marines no longer knowing which egg to shoot first..
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    mattji104 wrote: »
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    I think it would be fine with an increased spawn time due to gestating, this comes with a larger risk of having your egg destroyed and more damage being done to the hive.

    And marines no longer knowing which egg to shoot first..

    That's a fair tradeoff considering how easy it is to egglock a hive.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    mattji104 wrote: »
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    I think it would be fine with an increased spawn time due to gestating, this comes with a larger risk of having your egg destroyed and more damage being done to the hive.

    And marines no longer knowing which egg to shoot first..

    That's a fair tradeoff considering how easy it is to egglock a hive.

    Hmm, in NS there were no eggs so they kinda spawned in at random locations. It's all, relative somehow :tongue:
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    mattji104 wrote: »
    mattji104 wrote: »
    I don't know why people think it's magically reasonable to spawn with celerity or carapace as a skulk without evolving. Think about hive defense.

    I think it would be fine with an increased spawn time due to gestating, this comes with a larger risk of having your egg destroyed and more damage being done to the hive.

    And marines no longer knowing which egg to shoot first..

    That's a fair tradeoff considering how easy it is to egglock a hive.

    Already asked a long time ago.
    But you see, comps' prefer egg lock... so...
  • YaluzanYaluzan Join Date: 2013-07-30 Member: 186474Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester
    moultano wrote: »
    - Make the welder a builder replacement. Hold E to weld just like you would to build. Tweak values such that it is superior to the builder in all cases.
    My question is, will you still be able to weld aliens? its minor but still important.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2015
    Yaluzan wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    - Make the welder a builder replacement. Hold E to weld just like you would to build. Tweak values such that it is superior to the builder in all cases.
    My question is, will you still be able to weld aliens? its minor but still important.

    I get much more win much more engagements by breaking out my welder to finish off a skulk than using my pistol.

    Still though, Moultanos idea would make it so much simpler.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yaluzan wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    - Make the welder a builder replacement. Hold E to weld just like you would to build. Tweak values such that it is superior to the builder in all cases.
    My question is, will you still be able to weld aliens? its minor but still important.

    It is important, I'm all for having the easy weld mechanic but I would also like to still be able to pull it out like a weapon as we do now. This makes it easier to move around while welding, tossing someone a welder so they can weld you, and of course to get those classic welder kills we all enjoy.

    There is nothing wrong with adopting the half-life multi-weapon slot style and just tossing the welder in the tool slot alongside the mines.
  • FearlessJamesFearlessJames Join Date: 2015-12-09 Member: 209849Members
    edited December 2015
    @Samcai Everything you said in that post was GORGEous! I really like the "This is my territory,and I am safe" idea! I always wanted to walk into a room that's dark and infested and get the bone chilling feeling of "This isn't safe,they could be anywhere in here..."

    Marines right now don't care if there's infestation! They just kill cysts and move on! (Or worse,they ignore them!) If Kharaa Structures themselves spread infestation,that would help indicate that you're in Kharra territory now!

    For example,let's say a Marine who's being a good little soldier is scouting for open resource nozzels and notices infestation in the next room. That would immediately tell him "There must be Kharra in there,I better back off." Right now if a Marine sees infestation,he just thinks "Oh,there must be cysts,big deal :I" With this feature,it would let Marines know that the aliens are spreading and are building defenses,and they must be stopped!

    Also,Aliens need a better way of seeing Marine territory. The only thing we can see is either an extractor or a Phase gate,that's pretty much it. Maybe barricades by the doors n' such?

    (Possible Marine version of the Gorge?! :O)
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