ns2_derelict feedback
Lambo
Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
I'm not really sure if this belongs here or in the mapping section, can be moved if need be.
Just to be clear, this is not meant to imply the map being bad, I personally enjoy it & think it has high potential in becoming on par with the favored maps. The following changes were discussed with several people, mainly competitive players where multiple scenarios were thought out when creating, consider all aspects before making a decision. I’m not sure why I’m so stubborn about the map, here’s hoping it’ll be fit for competitive play one day I guess.
Currently the map is incredibly marine favored due to Plaza dominance when it comes to alien naturals, they have it difficult holding resource nodes, picking fights & harassing, adding additional vents will be a start. Having all spawn points available for both sides is also problematic, you're gonna have a hard time balancing out tech points & naturals for both sides without major layout changes, but I'm not covering that yet. The following images is an idea of vents that could be added, it's limited to how many should be added, but right now it's really easy to get locked in your spawn, placements most likely have to be altered due to map layout/looks.
Keep in mind that orange colored are meant as normal heights, marines can access some solo & some while boosting. Purple is meant as unreachable for marines, only accessible for skulks, lerks, fades & jetpackers.
Quite the overkill, but if all four tech points are available for both sides, it's hard to balance it.
http://i.imgur.com/Q0fGoWn.png
Here's with locked spawns, we found these to be the best regarding balance, it's arguable if aliens could spawn in Geothermal, current layout might make that hard unless certain decisions are made in-game. If it's decided to lock spawns, either Overlook -> Alley or Administration -> Alley vent should be discarded.
http://i.imgur.com/FykAS9z.png
Here's a clean map if you want to doodle: http://i.imgur.com/qztu2br.png
In any case, there could be a debate about the current vent in Lookout if Lookout -> Plaza vent will be added. Plaza resource node could use some cover, maybe add glass & only have access into administration from the doors. I wanted to cover/mention more but I don't have a lot of time, just wanted to get this out for feedback.
We had a couple of layout change ideas but that's quite the longshot & can wait.
Just to be clear, this is not meant to imply the map being bad, I personally enjoy it & think it has high potential in becoming on par with the favored maps. The following changes were discussed with several people, mainly competitive players where multiple scenarios were thought out when creating, consider all aspects before making a decision. I’m not sure why I’m so stubborn about the map, here’s hoping it’ll be fit for competitive play one day I guess.
Currently the map is incredibly marine favored due to Plaza dominance when it comes to alien naturals, they have it difficult holding resource nodes, picking fights & harassing, adding additional vents will be a start. Having all spawn points available for both sides is also problematic, you're gonna have a hard time balancing out tech points & naturals for both sides without major layout changes, but I'm not covering that yet. The following images is an idea of vents that could be added, it's limited to how many should be added, but right now it's really easy to get locked in your spawn, placements most likely have to be altered due to map layout/looks.
Keep in mind that orange colored are meant as normal heights, marines can access some solo & some while boosting. Purple is meant as unreachable for marines, only accessible for skulks, lerks, fades & jetpackers.
Quite the overkill, but if all four tech points are available for both sides, it's hard to balance it.
http://i.imgur.com/Q0fGoWn.png
Here's with locked spawns, we found these to be the best regarding balance, it's arguable if aliens could spawn in Geothermal, current layout might make that hard unless certain decisions are made in-game. If it's decided to lock spawns, either Overlook -> Alley or Administration -> Alley vent should be discarded.
http://i.imgur.com/FykAS9z.png
Here's a clean map if you want to doodle: http://i.imgur.com/qztu2br.png
In any case, there could be a debate about the current vent in Lookout if Lookout -> Plaza vent will be added. Plaza resource node could use some cover, maybe add glass & only have access into administration from the doors. I wanted to cover/mention more but I don't have a lot of time, just wanted to get this out for feedback.
We had a couple of layout change ideas but that's quite the longshot & can wait.
Comments
I really like the map otherwise. It will be a lot of fun as soon as something is done to aid res biting.
However Biome/Botany vent is the only way for Atmospheric Seeding to be a viable spawn for Aliens, Phase Gates in Glass/Botany are bad while Biome/Nursery lock it down.
1) Nursery should be more alien friendly;
Perhaps allow another entrance into biome from glass hallway via an underground-floor-vent, or a ceiling-vent so that there is cover for entrance but still only 1 horizontal angle to hold.
or
2) Make biome vent go into south side of Plaza on the roof of the room and have 3 exits equidistant from each other with the last exit close to the broken bridge.
or
3) Make the biome/botany vent path a lot closer to the atmospheric seeding tech point so that it can be in range of an observatory to stop ridiculous res biting ping ponging between marine naturals (if spawn)
Though I don't really have a issue with the ideas for the fixed spawn vents
Most of the hives are too jetpack-friendly. Western in particular is nigh-impossible to defend.
The routes to Plaza from the south/east are too short.
Turbine vent is almost as bad as the Biome vent.
*edit* on the purple vents: garage should not connect in the hive, it should start from the turbine vent. Turbine->geothermal is unnecessary.
top left vent on overlook->alley is unnecessary. right side overlook->alley should connect on the right side of that hallway and be purple, not the left side (otherwise a marine camping that hall will make the vent useless).
Hmmm, i was thinking the contrary on a 6vs6. It has to be really good marine shots. Any big room is favoring the flying units in this game (Netcode, Regs etc.). And there is more than one room like that in this map. So the natural strategic move is to use them. Ex : Kodiak.
A/ Lerks are out before JP. So it should be a win for Aliens as a Lerk patrol (2~3 units) can clearly change the deal in early game.
B/ JP are out. Aliens won't have many choices...
That's why i prefer 5 TPs maps. It gives more time and options. It may work on 6vs6 game but with 8vs8 to 10vs10; I fear it's gonna be a little unforgiving. In which case I tend to give the game to the marines.
Anyways, there are some little things I noticed.
'Path' seems broken in "flooded biome". The bots just don't go to Geothermal.
Skulk Bots get stuck all the time in this map (many nooks etc.) . It not the map fault only. It seems the bots tend to be less following the path (testing with ORA too). It's like they think they can jump to another part of the path (like a shortcut) even if there is a wall in front of them. So the marines rip their faces on the wall by jumping around like that. Skulks get on top of the wall seeking a hole maybe. I remember they were better. It may be a thing to add on the Trello if you want to make in game tutorial with enemies. But it's another topic.
Smooth is good for you.
Occlusion:
I see you
I see through you...
Weird FPS drop (GTX680)... dude... what?
Also, crash on game exit *again* - there must be something occasionally 'turned on' or 'flagged' during patches that does this, seems to only happen every 15 updates or so, can't really help you there but it must be in the occasional changes to that particular 'shut down engine back to Windows' code, somewhere.
Uncle Crunch, have you tested the run times between locations yet? There are some interesting rooms and very few corridors between them, is this map intended to make good marines killers in the corridors but vulnerable whence they enter a room?
I have been reading all your suggestions so far and keep them coming, I am not commenting on them yet but I am evaluating them and will respond at a future date.
Perhaps you should join the MT team?
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/136459/map-testing-positions-are-now-available-help-make-ns2-a-more-awesome-and-balanced-product#latest
Recommended:
Vent entrance from western tech point bypassing lookout. Connects to the previous lookout->biome vent.
Rationale: Lookout is for some reason really hard to deal with as aliens. Once the marines are there, it's almost impossible to get out.
Vent from admin to the tunnel between heat transfer and plaza.
Rationale: It's too easy to laneblock the entire southern/eastern portion of the map just by holding plaza.
Vent connecting current turbine vent to the bottom of turbine. Exit is fine anywhere as long as it's out of LoS of that long turbine hallway.
Rationale: Again, laneblocking is too easy from turbine.
Moving power node in plaza to the sheltered exit that's currently a blocked-off door.
Rationale: Since marines usually set up around the center-left portion of plaza, it'd be nice to create some separation between the power node and where marines usually place their structures. It's a lot easier to chip at the power node if it's inside that sheltered area, potentially drawing marines away (in general, slightly weakening plaza defense).
Geothermal vent to flooded biome.
Rationale: A ceiling vent would be a nice way to counter the altitude advantage that attackers have. In this map there's a lot of spots where the tech point or the rooms immediately adjacent give the defender an altitude disadvantage and geothermal is one of the biggest examples. I'm not sure if this is by design, to make the map play more base-trade-y, but sometimes it just feels like it makes it impossible to dislodge the other team once they've set up.
optional:
garage/alley->overlook is not strictly necessary, as alley isn't a huge issue.
lookout->biome, alternate vent if not keeping current lookout->biome vent.
moving power nodes in biome/flooded biome.
I do still think this is needed, despite the wide array of props on the ground in alley.
I still don't like the current turbine vent exit (it is not what i suggested) and am not sure how to solve it without making it too powerful.
Hint: the Atmos > Glass hallway roof vent is super powerful and underused... I was abusing the hell out of it last night to great effect.
Edit: Here were my revised suggestions given internally
http://i.imgur.com/kAOH1Br.jpg
Placements:
http://imgur.com/a/4tIdK
It was very important to those contributing to the development of this map that vents would be used sparingly in order to maintain the overall already balanced flow of the map.
But it was brought up (by beige, ghoul and me, mostly) that while high division players, who adequately utilized the cover provided, did not need these vents... the rest of the playerbase would.
Therefore we needed vents that increased accessibility and allowed evasion - something that would not impact high level play that much at all.
The idea being by allowing alternate routes that telegraph their usage (meaning a marine can see a skulk enter) it can sometimes force a marine to offset his position and therefore temporarily alleviate the lane blocking without requiring skillful mechanical maneuvering by a pub player -- but you'd still need to employ teamwork to capitalize on it.
Just thought you might want to keep all this in mind for anyone contributing vent proposals (which are very much welcomed!)
One of the reasons I add a lot of bends and shit to the vents is to increase the path length so there's not much advantage if any to using them over the default routes. I'll redo my suggestions based on what you say
There is skill in anticipating and learning to manipulate the aliens movements to go where you want them to go. Pushing them into a base rush through a vent like those descent ones can actually be game ending for aliens.
@Wheeee Suggestions don't address a South/East spawn for aliens making it hard to defend naturals.
This vent actually looks really good. It forces the marines to make a decision instead of camping on the natural (thereby making it easier for aliens to defend their natural) if it is an alien north spawn. The marines must push to deny entry into the vent, or they must pull back a little to deny the vent exit, both make the positions a little less comfortable for marines.
This is not the only factor to take into account when considering the favourability of a room... Yes there are ambush spots for a 1v1 but as soon as there are TWO marines, marines will win most engagements. The length of each face is too long with the angles being too shallow that it allows a great deal of distance between marines whilst keeping good line of sight and covering long distances and long angles themselves. That room is incredibly marine favoured and that vent wouldn't actually help much anyway.
Not to mention that the real issue is the entrance into nursery which is narrow, opens up into a wide angle with a long distance to cover before any real cover.
Yes, the layout is pretty symmetrical... but res biting seems like a huge issue, one which definitely compounds itself on higher play counts.
What are you talking about? High level players need vents more than anyone because high level marines shut down huge swathes of maps (which is a big complaint about ns2 public when good players join).
This is quite telling when the first few posts were made by "high level" players.
Yes, I agree. This is what I was trying to say about the turbine-admin vent.
flanking vents: basically vents that are an alternate entry/exit to a room. Probably best usage of thos is to make strong marine positions less strong
lane switching vents: ok maybe the name doesn't quite fit but I see them as a mean to help aliens get past laneblocking by quickly rotating between multiple lanes. atm derelict has none of them. examplesfor vents like that would be the turbines - administration vent and the administration - heat transfer vent in @Wheeee suggestion
Also, this map needs to force opposite spawns (if it doesn't already).
Screenshots of proposed vents
that's what I'm thinking now.
In turbine, moving the res tower to the bottom portion makes that room much better than it currently is. Swapping the broken windows to opposite sides makes the turbine vent more usable/threatening without adding an OP vent to admin. It also places it closer to geothermal which makes it easier to defend from there (Also, marines trying to harass it need to cover many more angles/must split attention a lot more to cover turbine hallway and the res tower).
Lookout->biome, get rid of that trash bottom exit, it's so easily disabled it might as well not even exist (since one mine and it's over). Instead, have it drop out of the biome ceiling.
Nursery is a problem, but I think it can be fixed if you flip the RT to the other side and insert boxes to block marine LoS from the hallway leading to plaza and atmo. This will allow aliens to enter the room, using boxes for cover from either geo or atmo side without having to cross the entire room. Marines must enter all the way into the room to harass, and are much more vulnerable.
One other way to strengthen alien control of Nursery is to reverse the direction that the ramp in the plaza overpass tunnel falls (e.g. instead of the ground side being north, have the ground side be south). This slightly increases the path length from plaza to nursery, as well as forcing marines to move in the opposite direction of their aim if trying to ascend the ramp and prevent lifeforms from the south coming in.
The geo->flooded vent might need to be replaced by flooded -> nursery...I'm not sure.
Oh yeah, and i feel like a vent is needed on the bottom side of plaza. It's too unapproachable from the bottom.
Other thoughts: overlook RT is really far from garage, it's the furthest natural from start location in the map (it's also really close to western). The broken window overlooking alley is pretty OP, but there's a necessity to be able to bypass overlook... possibly change the window to be chest-height so that you have to jump through the window to snipe cysts right below you.
Also, the one random pic of the hallway at the junction of glass hallway and biome, the root system I circled has collision geometry but doesn't block bullets.
The top one (administration).
You disagreed with my post recounting the internal history that occurred with vents and this map? lol..
You then seemingly went on to agree with what I said except for this part:
"What are you talking about? High level players need vents more than anyone because high level marines shut down huge swathes of maps (which is a big complaint about ns2 public when good players join)."
Which, as I explained was the reason why vents were not designed ahead of time: higher skilled players felt like they did not need them in the map when it was played (that was the feedback provided)... and it seemed to play well already without them at that level - so advocating for vents came down to a "for pub players" argument internally.
While I see your point regarding high level marines shutting down lanes, high level aliens are far far better at juking and utilizing the many nooks, crannies, and cover provided throughout the map than lesser skilled players are that would otherwise rely on alternate routes.
Watching a high level match vs a low level match on derelict is very telling in this way.
In any case, glad you at least agree regarding the telegraphing importance of vents
Introduction
- It is an evaluation (or project review) on Derelict in build 275 (July 31, 2015)
- It's my opinion but based on pure facts. It may not depict a 100% accurate "average picture" concerning my play time on this map. For the rest, it's technical only.
- It may seems negative, but you can't make things better if no one tell you anything. I understand quite precisely what is to make a map and all the problems a mapper/modder faces. So if you are a “troller - loler” -> Out!
I will review the technical layer first then strategic and finally my opinionSorry if my English is poor. I will be happy to correct grammar if you come to see something more or less well badly written… maybe.
Technical
Size
It is bigger than Tram while feeling the same or smaller.
The feel contradicts the truth because the fact remains that the useful areas are connected in a way that makes it feel smaller. See travel time in picture.
Versus Tram
Travel times
As an example the path from Garage to Overlook : Alley is quite a long straight alley. But it was barely used during the game I had on this map. Unless your base is Garage or Western entrance you don't really use it. It's dangerous for a skulk to travel there.
Care
Finally someone who seems a little more arranging layers. The methods used seem to be the same all around. I mean less than some other examples I won't mention here.
I've seen many things that can be a concern in this map.
It would have been a little better to make several long decals instead of aligning tons of them on a wall (Geothermal grass). It may be a concern for performances. Even my PC (from June 2015) which allows me to render in Blender view really fast (sometimes instantly) has FPS drops to 50FPS. I truly think the culprit is the number of decals. There are probably some other things but the number one suspect is the decal use.
Some little bugs already mentioned in this thread.
Lightning
It is remarkable that some areas should have some stronger ambient light. In some places. I saw myself shooting at a skulk completely dark while the walls where bright (close to Turbine). The skulk should have been 'lit' by all those "fluorescent vegetation". It was not.
Some stronger ambient light here and there can solve this. Though I know the ambient light setup is just a pain in the ass, it would solve many problems.
The one in turbine (@2106.8; 383.54; -22.14) is at intensity:5 and radius:150. Clearly low for this type of light.
If you check the normal light next to the wall (@2129.6; 432.12; -55.62) in vegetation you find intensity 0,5 and radius 251,76. This one is ok as the big radius makes the light stronger close to the origin (it even burns a little the space melons).
It happens in many areas of course. This one is easy to test.
So the walls get a better/stronger light than the overall volume.
Consequence, on some areas you cannot hide on the ceiling/walls but you can hide in the middle of the room volume. With one exception (side note).
On a side note about lightning
It is obvious (like one mile away) that some players are using special skins or whatever it is to see a skulk like if it was a white dot in total darkness (black screen).
I still don't understand these guys.
They bought PCs that worth thousand of dollars to be able to play games with high graphic details while they set all details to low and they're using this kind of stuff.
To all those : If you want a better game it is NOT the way to do things
Tactical and strategy
The lane blocking
Due to the lack of snake pass the lanes are quite easy to control.
Even if there are some spots to hide in, it's barely used as there is only one spot in the area (so they know where to look) or you can be seen going there. Then it becomes a death trap. If you find an opportunity to hide without being noticed you have to wait until some opponent comes. Which isn't possible as time is short on this map. It is felt like a pain on alien side.
It may be solved by new vents but it's not the purpose here.
Therefore the Marines have the upper hand. That is why many people complain (even on 6vs6) that Harvesters are quite difficult to defend. I can't say I feel differently. Above a 6vs6 (8 to 10 players per team) : Unless the marines are not able to aim they win. Period.
This effect even provides some “Mexican stand”. When the skulks know they can't go in the room or move without being killed. They just cover the doorway. The Marines do the same as they keep the RTs up and block the lane.
The only counter is the unit number by creating a meat ball (more than 2). But the Alien leave behind the other side of the map. One way or another the harvesters will fall. It goes down to : The aliens wait for their death.
Also there is no Z or snake pass (or not enough). This is useful to make any travel time longer. This could make the map smaller.
Conclusion : The map is bigger than Tram and feels smaller because of a lack of snake pass which are many (even in a subtle way) in other maps (Ex Tram). The marine clearly have an easy job to block lanes (even 2A vs 1M is difficult). The alien have to know the map like the back of their hand to counter that in order to just keep the naturals... The gap is too big.
The game is a "I kill you right away or I die" thing:
While the aliens can suffer the pain of loosing the game whatever they try (usual), the feeling is worst if the marines suffer the same at the beginning. follow me for a moment.
The only time I saw the aliens win in this map happened this way. Marines start at Geothermal. A bunch of bad luck moments made possible a base rush on Geothermal (20 sec mark). The marines managed to build another base in Atmospheric. Then the whole game was to fight for a lousy PG in plaza while the marines where unable to keep alive the RT of Biome and Nursery. It was just a waste of time.
Most of the time it's the Marines who win on larger game. I noticed that I have yet to see the marines use JP in hives. It never went to that point.
If the alien team succeed at crippling the marine early on; it doesn't worth the try. You can't make a come back. No matter what the teams try, the one that gets the upper hand early will win.
My thoughts
I hate Veil but compared to Derelict it's better.
I don't like NS2_Veil and NS2_eclipse as they are ports from NS1. I think it's like trying to load a car trunk with a caterpillar (yes the actual construction vehicle)… To stay short, the 4 TPs maps reduce the fight to 1 base vs 1 base while the aliens need more base to grow. It tends to reduce the choice of strategy on the alien side. This is sad. Also in these maps if one team wins; you always get stuck in the base for longer than necessary. No option at all. It makes faster game compared to a 5TPs but less attractive concerning the strategy layer, IMO.
So I hate Veil as it is a 4 TPs map, with the so wrong Nano double RT. But it does a better job at balancing things. If the marine can't get Nano they still can do several things like
On Derelict the deal change drastically. As everything is close to the marines, the number (and the number or flying bullet) does the trick.
- Then one solution for alien is to “base rush”.
- Then it kills the game.
- So it goes down to “i kill you fast, or I die”.
I'm afraid to say it's is the one map that “dethrones” Veil on my list. It's my personal list non the less. Up to people to make their own opinions.Still, It could use a 5th hive.
Implies he has played more than once (actually his phrasing throughout the entire post, besides the one word you quoted, implies he's played multiple rounds), but even if he didn't his observations correspond with what I have witnessed after playing over a dozen rounds (where, and I am absolutely not exaggerating here) aliens have only won twice. Once due to a last ditch base rush because they were boxed into their hive, as per normal and the second because we had a fade go 40-7 destroying all of their base pushes. I have never seen a 'normal' round where aliens even appear to have a chance to win or comeback. It's worth noting I play in a server in between pubs and gathers when it comes to skill, so the map tends to be played properly when it comes to blocking lanes, RT pressure and such.
My experience with the map makes me agree with this because aliens simply can not hold their res well enough when there's only one entrance to them.
Several rounds. In fact more than i wanted as it was voted massively since the build is out. On several servers. It seems that it's not the case tonight (at least were I played). When i say "the game" it makes it less difficult to write. It's of course the actual game i was on at the moment. I can't remember how many rounds but trust me; it's enough. I have good gut feelings about this kind of things.
I even saw some little things with bots testing that makes me think this map did not go through a proper testing program session. I think it's not ready for a release. I would have preferred something else than a map, like a community system; a rework of the Hive skill system or something of the sort. If it was the "special thing" we were waiting. I'm a little bit disappointed. Let's hope the next patch will go towards this kind of things.
FYI the study is based on :
@turtsmcgurt : Well done