IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2015
@Wob I think the plaza vent just looks like a troll spot.
Same with the nursery vent, if lerks have such a tough time in there what does a 3 meter vent accomplish, they'd just get blocked in there waiting for death?
Why not connect the nursery vent to the room between geo and flooded? Aliens could go through that glass hole right into the vent without having a vent in a TP room, and it'd allow flanking of marines that would siege Geo.
Also I dislike the prop in the middle of turbine, that'd make that spot really cramped.
Ok, so what do you think of the following changes:
nursery
-add a prop to nursery to block north entrance from immediate access/vision to the RT/power node.
-add flooded->nursery vent
-add botany-> nursery vent
flooded->nursery
nursery->flooded (two possible vents, probably the left side one is better)
perspective from north entrance
botany->nursery
nursery->botany (two possible vents)
plaza
-add a vent to the south side of the administration building:
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I think it's missing the very much needed alley vent, and also I really liked your heat transfer to north plaza more than this new suggestion, since the left side already has some vents
Someone mentioned earlier that derelict is a map people are already trying to avoid.
I haven't noticed this, really I think the map is awesome and once we're appeased with a few vents, I think will it have summ/veil/tram playability.
Additionally, have any maps come out that weren't altered either a lot or a little after release? I don't think this thread is a sign of a bad map, I think it's a sign of a healthy community doing what it can to bring our standards a notch higher. Map is gud, will be better.
Seriously, keep it on topic or I will start deleting whole posts. -Decoy
Concerning performances (Tip: feedback ahead). The vents suggestions were discarded for good reasons (also explained here by other), and i believe this will not solve the main issue on the map. The snake pass will and it provides the mean to block the 3D rendering far away with occlusion. Every wall is more occlusion to be added... That will improve performances without killing everything. Of course it means to re-shape some parts of the map. As an example In Alley/overlook (between) if you look South/South-East you look at a quarter of the map at least (depending on the angle).
It is better (also technically; 3D speaking) than the vents that would eventually make the game worse. In some case the aliens will try to avoid the marines at all cost (as the map just adds vents) using the vents. and then it can end up in this scenario:
The marines and the aliens fight in the harvester locations.
The aliens rush bile bomb, and buy time fighting for the 2 harvesters.
They use the vent to get to the destination and execute a Tunnel + rush base.
It is not a "I kill you right away or i die" sequence. It's just a delayed version.
@DC_Darkling : yes they were not at their best in this map. But same goes for the opponent. I was counting on it. I was disappointed to see the marines could manage even with this handicap.
So basically @Loki has to kill the problem described like this IMO : The bullets can fly from the North Wall to the South wall far too easy in a lot of rooms. The rooms aren't that small. The alleys connecting rooms are too straight.
The good thing is the theme. Derelict means you can break everything; blow up everything. Exploooowwde!!! I was counting on it.
Control the travel times to choose the snake pass locations carefully.
It doesn't mean you have to reduce the whole map size.
It doesn't mean you have to redo some alley from A to Z. I'm sure you're quite capable of finding the solution. Glass Hallway for example is an easy candidate. But as it is your Art I'll say no more.
I think it's missing the very much needed alley vent, and also I really liked your heat transfer to north plaza more than this new suggestion, since the left side already has some vents
ok, so including the alley and admin vents, here's what it'd look like:
Also, I thought up a way to have the turbine -> administration vent not be super overpowered. You put a second vent that doesn't connect to the current turbine vent, and have it come out in the middle of the turbine hallway, so that coming from garage you need to go further up the hallway to access it.
I took out some of the plaza west side vent, but left the plaza/admin portion to help lerks in that section...it should at least be a little helpful so lerks don't have to fly so close to the middle of plaza if they are trying to get through.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@UncleCrunch thats because in general alien handicap on a new map is more harsh.
Aliens can go a lot faster then marines, so going headfirst into a wall is a much bigger problem for a alien.
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited August 2015
@wob my only issue with moving the RT in nursery (back) to where you suggested is that it will become a total snipe fest for that RT.
I am all for adding in afew more props in plaza if need be, the truck used to be in there but got removed (cant remember why now) / lack of space? https://i.imgur.com/WYooaad.png (you can see a lot of old vents on the mini map in this picture)
@Wheeee some of those vents you suggested use to be in but again got removed.
For example
Alley used to have a opening at the top e.g. https://i.imgur.com/nHh9hPn.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/feHyBQI.png however it got removed due to being far to strong. A vent also used to run up to this spot from garage. Fades became rediculous here and was subject to many complaints so was removed. Which I guess why I resisted @ironhorses idea for this room
It is better (also technically; 3D speaking) than the vents that would eventually make the game worse. In some case the aliens will try to avoid the marines at all cost (as the map just adds vents) using the vents. and then it can end up in this scenario:
The marines and the aliens fight in the harvester locations.
The aliens rush bile bomb, and buy time fighting for the 2 harvesters.
They use the vent to get to the destination and execute a Tunnel + rush base.
It is not a "I kill you right away or i die" sequence. It's just a delayed version.
That's a really dumb analysis. You could describe just about any map used in the rotation in this manner. Any game played on any particular map could be described as a "delayed version of 'I kill you right away or I die' sequence." The fact is, vents allow aliens to present more of a threat over the entire map, and to defend/attack rooms better so that they WON'T need to avoid marines at all costs. This is especially true at higher playercounts...you know, the playercounts that are keeping this game alive.
That's a really dumb analysis. You could describe just about any map used in the rotation in this manner. Any game played on any particular map could be described as a "delayed version of 'I kill you right away or I die' sequence." The fact is, vents allow aliens to present more of a threat over the entire map, and to defend/attack rooms better so that they WON'T need to avoid marines at all costs. This is especially true at higher playercounts...you know, the playercounts that are keeping this game alive.
Nope because the aliens CAN defend their natural Harvesters in other maps. At least not witnessing the naturals die instantly. In this case it's like you have to throw yourself in front of the harvester in order to be its carapace. I thought about it while playing.
If you play with some >2000, you won't have any single chance to survive in the alleys/hallways as they are right now. Not a single one unless the guy makes a mistake (or have to reload and he's alone). You would be extremely lucky because they DON'T make mistakes. With these guys the vents are checked as much as it can be. In fact it can be worst as it would add another death trap for Aliens. The vents won't save it. Not to mention improving FPS.
Take for example Biome, you can shoot at the harvester from Glass hallways. This is a great distance. 2 marines that can aim in here and no skulk can get to one of them from the doorway. Not enough time to land a single bite. The solution is the meat ball. Problem you leave the other side unprotected.
Nursery / flooded. Even a meat ball can see 3 units killed in the process of removing 2 marines guarding Nursery. If a skulk can go the other way in 24 seconds (Heat transfer/plaza/nursery) it's not enough as the aliens have to add the time to organize. So we are at >30 to 40 secs... Let's just say that even if the aliens clean the place; the extractor already gave enough res to the "Marine Res account". it's stays a positive number. They can come back later. The aliens won't have the spot all things considered. or they leabe the rest of the map for 1 spot. It's bad.
Bye bye upgrades and powerful Fades/Lerks... I mean: Simple marine tactics like that can ruin the game (ex: covering a door like in other dumb FPS).
Next move for the aliens ? What about : Upgrade hive, build 3 upgrades, cross the fingers? Play enough time to see if it's ok (more or less), then vote when available.
It's a map in which the aliens can't count on the naturals unless they have clearly better players than the marines. Therefore it leads people back to square one. Stacking, balance etc.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Can we have vents that are always accessible to both aliens and marines? THis way the marines put themselves at distinct disadvantages when doing so. And it's fun.
Same with the nursery vent, if lerks have such a tough time in there what does a 3 meter vent accomplish, they'd just get blocked in there waiting for death?
Or a teammate, or regen. It also adds the possibility to escape into flooded but without the certainty. It means marines still have to hit the exit shots.
Why not connect the nursery vent to the room between geo and flooded? Aliens could go through that glass hole right into the vent without having a vent in a TP room, and it'd allow flanking of marines that would siege Geo.
Maybe this is a good idea. Although I just defended a seige on geo on public with a gorge firing bile through the window and skulks/fades covering any push on the gorge. (Was pretty balanced imo)
I am all for adding in afew more props in plaza if need be
Not sure there needs to be actually. I just think adding a (broken) window to the wall on west side of plaza/admin, and you've got yourself a nice pipe on the outside to climb up as a skulk and along to biome.
So I had a few games tonight. Love the map and love the general layout, but I'm still concerned about the lack of alien only routes (vents) and nursery's marine favour.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2015
Good luck to any gorge who can effectively launch bile onto the cc or ips , ( turns out you can get some of the preplaced IPs spawns if you practice enough / expose yourself.) through that window without hitting the blocking grate.
And if a comm put an armory or proto under that spot I say he gets what he deserves. Bad placement is bad placement?
This is the only reason I was considering that spot to be safe for a vent. I recommend a base layout like this, avoiding the red.
I'm honestly surprised I haven't heard anything about the pipes above the cc in geo. I thought that would be the big gripe. (Even though you can both effectively get up there as a Marine or shoot something down )
A gorge can bile the most of left side of the geothermal from that window. I am talking about shooting at about a 30-60 degree angles on either side of the grate. You can even get splash damage on the chair. Anything sufficiently far behind the grate can not be hit. It may not be the best way to assault that room, but it is possible. Basically all that is in red in this picture.
I can totally see inexperience comms placing stuff in that red space. Really though it is not a big issue.
A gorge can bile the most of left side of the geothermal from that window. I am talking about shooting at about a 30-60 degree angles on either side of the grate. You can even get splash damage on the chair. Anything sufficiently far behind the grate can not be hit. It may not be the best way to assault that room, but it is possible. Basically all that is in red in this picture.
I can totally see inexperience comms placing stuff in that red space. Really though it is not a big issue.
I can attest to how annoying it was to siege from there just now, my god
A gorge can bile the most of left side of the geothermal from that window. I am talking about shooting at about a 30-60 degree angles on either side of the grate. You can even get splash damage on the chair. Anything sufficiently far behind the grate can not be hit. It may not be the best way to assault that room, but it is possible. Basically all that is in red in this picture.
I can totally see inexperience comms placing stuff in that red space. Really though it is not a big issue.
I can attest to how annoying it was to siege from there just now, my god
You say "from" there as if you were the aliens. Can you explain what it was and why it was annoying?
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Well sieging implies marines, to me stleast, but at the window in geothermal that you mentioned to bile through. We brough sieges there and just couldnt stop letting people through. I think we got the arcs safe from that bile like 3-4 sets of arcs in lol
DecoyJoin Date: 2012-09-11Member: 159037Members, Super Administrators, Playtest Lead, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
edited August 2015
This thread has been cleaned up again. Please keep it on topic or I'll start handing out more warnings. Thanks friends! There has been some really good feedback in here!
I'm confused, I meant an alien spawn in Geo and aliens breaking a siege in that little room by biling through the window. I thought your vent suggestion was so that aliens could come through nursery and flank to break the siege, which is a really good idea because flanking through nursery and flooded is an absolute nightmare (read: impossible).
I am loosing my shit here. Won't be back at my computer until Friday night and by then this map will have gone the way of the Eclipse and Kodiak because people are afraid of anything that isn't summittramveil.
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
well I can nerf gorge bile bomb from that window in to geothermal easy enough for the next patch for sure. It was designed in a way so that gorges can bile from geothermal up into that corridor room to help against arcs there (which I dont want to stop) as its quite a powerful arc spot.
well I can nerf gorge bile bomb from that window in to geothermal easy enough for the next patch for sure. It was designed in a way so that gorges can bile from geothermal up into that corridor room to help against arcs there (which I dont want to stop) as its quite a powerful arc spot.
I wouldn't change it. Marines can put an armory between it and the ARCs if they want (costs them more to do so and thus is a bigger investment/deterrent). Ironhorse suggested a vent from nursery--> that room which might help flank and break sieges (because it can be pretty hard)
I think the window is more powerful for marines if anything. From that window you can directly hit the hive, RT and almost every possible upgrade location minus one tiny area with a grenade launcher. All while putting a armory somewhat in the window preventing skulks any aliens from getting through, but allowing marines.
I assume someone's already mentioned gorging up on the pipes over geothermal to bile the marine base?
I'm not saying marines can't counter it, but it's a little harder to deal with than it should be. Simplest solution would be to not allow aliens to evolve up there. If a gorge can clog climb up without getting stopped he deserves his bile.
Comments
Same with the nursery vent, if lerks have such a tough time in there what does a 3 meter vent accomplish, they'd just get blocked in there waiting for death?
Why not connect the nursery vent to the room between geo and flooded? Aliens could go through that glass hole right into the vent without having a vent in a TP room, and it'd allow flanking of marines that would siege Geo.
Also I dislike the prop in the middle of turbine, that'd make that spot really cramped.
nursery
-add a prop to nursery to block north entrance from immediate access/vision to the RT/power node.
-add flooded->nursery vent
-add botany-> nursery vent
flooded->nursery
perspective from north entrance
botany->nursery
plaza
-add a vent to the south side of the administration building:
I haven't noticed this, really I think the map is awesome and once we're appeased with a few vents, I think will it have summ/veil/tram playability.
Additionally, have any maps come out that weren't altered either a lot or a little after release? I don't think this thread is a sign of a bad map, I think it's a sign of a healthy community doing what it can to bring our standards a notch higher. Map is gud, will be better.
Concerning performances (Tip: feedback ahead). The vents suggestions were discarded for good reasons (also explained here by other), and i believe this will not solve the main issue on the map. The snake pass will and it provides the mean to block the 3D rendering far away with occlusion. Every wall is more occlusion to be added... That will improve performances without killing everything. Of course it means to re-shape some parts of the map. As an example In Alley/overlook (between) if you look South/South-East you look at a quarter of the map at least (depending on the angle).
It is better (also technically; 3D speaking) than the vents that would eventually make the game worse. In some case the aliens will try to avoid the marines at all cost (as the map just adds vents) using the vents. and then it can end up in this scenario:
- The marines and the aliens fight in the harvester locations.
- The aliens rush bile bomb, and buy time fighting for the 2 harvesters.
- They use the vent to get to the destination and execute a Tunnel + rush base.
It is not a "I kill you right away or i die" sequence. It's just a delayed version.@DC_Darkling : yes they were not at their best in this map. But same goes for the opponent. I was counting on it. I was disappointed to see the marines could manage even with this handicap.
So basically @Loki has to kill the problem described like this IMO :
The bullets can fly from the North Wall to the South wall far too easy in a lot of rooms. The rooms aren't that small. The alleys connecting rooms are too straight.
ok, so including the alley and admin vents, here's what it'd look like:
Also, I thought up a way to have the turbine -> administration vent not be super overpowered. You put a second vent that doesn't connect to the current turbine vent, and have it come out in the middle of the turbine hallway, so that coming from garage you need to go further up the hallway to access it.
I took out some of the plaza west side vent, but left the plaza/admin portion to help lerks in that section...it should at least be a little helpful so lerks don't have to fly so close to the middle of plaza if they are trying to get through.
Rooms are too large, and hallways are too straight?
5th hive point in the readyroom!
Aliens can go a lot faster then marines, so going headfirst into a wall is a much bigger problem for a alien.
I am all for adding in afew more props in plaza if need be, the truck used to be in there but got removed (cant remember why now) / lack of space? https://i.imgur.com/WYooaad.png (you can see a lot of old vents on the mini map in this picture)
@Wheeee some of those vents you suggested use to be in but again got removed.
For example
Alley used to have a opening at the top e.g. https://i.imgur.com/nHh9hPn.png https://i.imgur.com/feHyBQI.png however it got removed due to being far to strong. A vent also used to run up to this spot from garage. Fades became rediculous here and was subject to many complaints so was removed. Which I guess why I resisted @ironhorses idea for this room
That's a really dumb analysis. You could describe just about any map used in the rotation in this manner. Any game played on any particular map could be described as a "delayed version of 'I kill you right away or I die' sequence." The fact is, vents allow aliens to present more of a threat over the entire map, and to defend/attack rooms better so that they WON'T need to avoid marines at all costs. This is especially true at higher playercounts...you know, the playercounts that are keeping this game alive.
Nope because the aliens CAN defend their natural Harvesters in other maps. At least not witnessing the naturals die instantly. In this case it's like you have to throw yourself in front of the harvester in order to be its carapace. I thought about it while playing.
If you play with some >2000, you won't have any single chance to survive in the alleys/hallways as they are right now. Not a single one unless the guy makes a mistake (or have to reload and he's alone). You would be extremely lucky because they DON'T make mistakes. With these guys the vents are checked as much as it can be. In fact it can be worst as it would add another death trap for Aliens. The vents won't save it. Not to mention improving FPS.
Take for example Biome, you can shoot at the harvester from Glass hallways. This is a great distance. 2 marines that can aim in here and no skulk can get to one of them from the doorway. Not enough time to land a single bite. The solution is the meat ball. Problem you leave the other side unprotected.
Nursery / flooded. Even a meat ball can see 3 units killed in the process of removing 2 marines guarding Nursery. If a skulk can go the other way in 24 seconds (Heat transfer/plaza/nursery) it's not enough as the aliens have to add the time to organize. So we are at >30 to 40 secs... Let's just say that even if the aliens clean the place; the extractor already gave enough res to the "Marine Res account". it's stays a positive number. They can come back later. The aliens won't have the spot all things considered. or they leabe the rest of the map for 1 spot. It's bad.
Bye bye upgrades and powerful Fades/Lerks... I mean: Simple marine tactics like that can ruin the game (ex: covering a door like in other dumb FPS).
Next move for the aliens ? What about : Upgrade hive, build 3 upgrades, cross the fingers? Play enough time to see if it's ok (more or less), then vote when available.
It's a map in which the aliens can't count on the naturals unless they have clearly better players than the marines. Therefore it leads people back to square one. Stacking, balance etc.
5 TPs maps can take 2 different shapes. Cross and Circle configuration. I guess you knew.
It adds vulnerability to crossing the room so its not an invulnerable route for aliens.
Or a teammate, or regen. It also adds the possibility to escape into flooded but without the certainty. It means marines still have to hit the exit shots.
Maybe this is a good idea. Although I just defended a seige on geo on public with a gorge firing bile through the window and skulks/fades covering any push on the gorge. (Was pretty balanced imo)
Depending on the prop it makes it balanced. It's where I would put some of my clogs if I were a gorge...
I think you're right, but I didn't know what else to do with that room.
Not sure there needs to be actually. I just think adding a (broken) window to the wall on west side of plaza/admin, and you've got yourself a nice pipe on the outside to climb up as a skulk and along to biome.
So I had a few games tonight. Love the map and love the general layout, but I'm still concerned about the lack of alien only routes (vents) and nursery's marine favour.
And if a comm put an armory or proto under that spot I say he gets what he deserves. Bad placement is bad placement?
This is the only reason I was considering that spot to be safe for a vent. I recommend a base layout like this, avoiding the red.
I'm honestly surprised I haven't heard anything about the pipes above the cc in geo. I thought that would be the big gripe. (Even though you can both effectively get up there as a Marine or shoot something down )
I can attest to how annoying it was to siege from there just now, my god
You say "from" there as if you were the aliens. Can you explain what it was and why it was annoying?
I'm confused, I meant an alien spawn in Geo and aliens breaking a siege in that little room by biling through the window. I thought your vent suggestion was so that aliens could come through nursery and flank to break the siege, which is a really good idea because flanking through nursery and flooded is an absolute nightmare (read: impossible).
I wouldn't change it. Marines can put an armory between it and the ARCs if they want (costs them more to do so and thus is a bigger investment/deterrent). Ironhorse suggested a vent from nursery--> that room which might help flank and break sieges (because it can be pretty hard)
I'm not saying marines can't counter it, but it's a little harder to deal with than it should be. Simplest solution would be to not allow aliens to evolve up there. If a gorge can clog climb up without getting stopped he deserves his bile.