Work Continues! - Natural Selection 2

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  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    Therius said:
    Yes, this sounds most reasonable. Didn't cross my mind.

    Pelargir said: This comment is ridiculous and on par with anti-vacciners. I'm not saying you're wrong, but this comment here is just stupid.
    It's funny that I think you sound like the anti-vacciner
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited June 2015
    Therius said:
    Median time per player at about 50 seconds. Most of those players didn't even get through the loading screen.
    I know that I boot up NS2, find no open slots on any of my active local servers, then close the game about 3-4 times a week. This takes me about a minute each time.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Benson said:
    I know that I boot up NS2, find no open slots on any of my active local servers, then close the game about 3-4 times a week. This takes me about a minute each time.
    I just use the finally working Steam client server browser to see if there is anything worth launching the game for.
  • cpt000cpt000 Join Date: 2013-08-28 Member: 187152Members
    edited June 2015
    Therius said:
    What is your problem, exactly? Why should the game have an even distribution of wins across the entire spectrum of round duration? The game is designed in a way that leads to one of the teams having an advantage in different phases of a round, and that is by no means a flaw. The trick is to understand when you are in a phase where your goal is not to push for victory, but to stall, so that when the pendulum swings in your favour, the opposing team hasn't been able to capitalise enough on their previous advantage to resist you.

    The marines do have an advantage and they dictate the pace of the game during the first minutes. However, your scenario is an extreme example that should not take place in an even match-up with an alien team who know the basics.
    My problem is that aliens are handicapped from the start, so much so that the pendulum swings to the marines favor and stays there. How can the pendulum swing back when aliens cannot get the res to upgrade?  If aliens try to rush out, there's a hail of gunfire from medpacked marines waiting for them.

    My point stands that marines can use their virtually infinite health to kneecap the aliens res flow from the very start and it's a serious design flaw of NS2.

    How is this fun at all for any player???? It's like playing a fps game where the other team starts with bulletproof vests by default and you start with none. I experience this on a nightly basis, 2 games out of 5. For the marines it's boring as they just have to repeat the same strategy over and over again: rush the alien naturals, get medpacked, camp, tech up then kill the hive. For the aliens, it's gg/ragequit in less than 10 minutes - even if they can reclaim 1 side, the marines have had the benefit of 80% map control for that period.

    It's also hardly an extreme example when it's reflected in the 70% win rate for marines.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2015
    Benson said:
    I know that I boot up NS2, find no open slots on any of my active local servers, then close the game about 3-4 times a week. This takes me about a minute each time.
    Use Steams server browser. No reason to launch ns2 in that case.

    Edit: Didn't catch that IeptBarakat already suggested this, my bad.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    Use Steams server browser. No reason to launch ns2 in that case.

    Edit: Didn't catch that IeptBarakat already suggested this, my bad.
    Alternatively, add regulars as friends and join/queue through them. You might still launch the game without joining if someone else filled the slot before you, but it works pretty well.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited June 2015
    matso said:
    Hmm http://steamcharts.com/app/4920 says 214 players average last month. 14 days of  214 players produced about about 72000 hours, so spreading that over 14000 players says about 5 hours median time.

    So the 4:43 sounds pretty much like a very plausible average.

    Yes, yes, I had the impression that those numbers represented the median/average time per session, not for the whole period. Sounds very plausible that way.

    mattji104 said:
    It's funny that I think you sound like the anti-vacciner
    Yes, it is funny. I have no idea where you got that from.
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Loki said:Sure a new map in the next patch is good news for those of us who are STILL HERE its an announcement for the CURRENT player-base, its not being aimed any anyone else its just something new /different for people to try therefore giving us more time to get more stuff done.
    TBH I don't know if another map is good. It will have some effects:
    • Another map will make the rookies lost for a longer time as they will have to learn more.
    • They can enjoy to have more maps but they also can realize it's overwhelming.
    • Also : endless complaints on this forums about this map. It will probably hide the most important matter (getting more players).
    I do not exclude / forget the bug fixes and other improvements. I understand clearly what's going on in these dark days. Those things that younger minds wouldn't notice. But in the mean time i cannot stop to notice that nothing has been done to improve the situation concerning player retention since a long time (1 or 2 years). Other than Christmas month, it's going toward 0.
    • We know that the "0 hour rookies" will just get anything else than positive feelings about NS2 by joining a server right away. Otherwise we would have a positive amount of player every month that would reverse the Steamcharts curve. So far it's mostly negative.
    • We know that the learning curve could be less painful if there was some tools within the game to help people meet (at least). Teachers and recruits. So far it's rather a pain to do it. Yes tutorials are here but we all know training in a sandbox with the help and advice from teachers is far better. In fact needed to my opinion.
    • Many things have been suggested. Some people agree (or not) on X or Y and vice versa depending on their liking / understanding. Ok it must be hard to decide / convince.
    But nothing good or bad have been tried (included in the game) to solve this almighty corner stone problem. I mean you can have a bad game. If people can learn things in this game easily and enjoy it; it will eventually have a greater success than a great A+ game but a A+ game that is hard to reach (understand) and nothing to help.

    CDT have to create the things needed to lead them or help the teachers lead the rookies trough that complexity. Though i still think the word complexity isn't accurate but you get the point. Even if it means locking the rookies in the sandbox / or -20 hours only servers, so be it. It will better than having bags of meat in the way.

    Because as you mentioned quite accurately "those of us who are STILL HERE" is only +200 people according to steamcharts. It would be far more enjoyable for CDT (incentive) as for the community to replenish the ranks. Modding community included.

    I hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2015

    Because as you mentioned quite accurately "those of us who are STILL HERE" is only +200 people according to steamcharts. It would be far more enjoyable for CDT (incentive) as for the community to replenish the ranks. Modding community included.


    We actually have a daily playerbase of on average, 16,000 players in 2 weeks. That's not insignificant. Proof is available through SpeamSpy: http://steamspy.com/app/4920

  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Obraxis said:
    We actually have a daily playerbase of on average, 16,000 players in 2 weeks. That's not insignificant. Proof is available through SpeamSpy: http://steamspy.com/app/4920

    From what was said before about it (in and outside this thread) i wouldn't trust blindly Steamspy. In fact it would be interesting to see if these numbers fit what is recorded in Hive. It should be possible to find (or deduce) the same kind of values. Of course CDT or UWE : don't do it. Please focus on the "rookie will stay" problem.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2015
    From what was said before about it (in and outside this thread) i wouldn't trust blindly Steamspy. In fact it would be interesting to see if these numbers fit what is recorded in Hive. It should be possible to find (or deduce) the same kind of values. Of course CDT or UWE : don't do it. Please focus on the "rookie will stay" problem.

    The steam spy numbers, as known, are not entirely reliable. That does not change the fact that there is more than 200 unique people playing ns2. It makes sense that not everyone plays every day. Steamspy continues to get more accurate as time goes on. It started at 20k + or - 3k and now is down to 12k + or - 3k.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    unfortunately, whether we have that many players or not, the biggest problem with ns/ns2 has always been the learning curve. a proper solution would have been an ELO/league ranking system like starcraft 2, but we never have (and never will) have the kind of playerbase necessary to support that kind of thing, which is why the comp scene is pretty much dead now.
  • SaltlickSaltlick Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177347Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    roxxkatt wrote: »
    Saltlick said:
    It would be awesome if the code was on github and we could try our hand at fixing some low priority bugs.

    @Saltlick the code is on every players computer in steam/ns2/ns2/lua

    I'm aware. I'd just like to make pull requests.
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    Saltlick said:

    I'm aware. I'd just like to make pull requests.

    Just post your patch with a description and the diff/patch file here in the forum ;)
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    edited June 2015
    Obraxis said:

    We actually have a daily playerbase of on average, 16,000 players in 2 weeks. That's not insignificant. Proof is available through SpeamSpy: http://steamspy.com/app/4920


    And you believe it? does the current amount of people playing feel like there is 16000 people are getting into servers?
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
    Daveodeth said:

    And you believe it? does the current amount of people playing feel like there is 16000 people are getting into servers?
    Sometimes, numbers are irrelevant...
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    Daveodeth said:

    And you believe it? does the current amount of people playing feel like there is 16000 people are getting into servers?

    as we said before, the average player plays 4 hours over a 2 week time span (which is a period of 336h)
    taking into account that we have an average of 200 players at all times, that requires around 16k players:

    players = (336/4) * 200 = 16800

    (basic order of magnitude calculations)
    so yeah, we have around 16k players

    The important point that we all agree is that we are really passionate about the game and we don't want it to die. There are some people more depressed and others more optimistic about the playerbase, but that discussion is not solving anything
    I'm just immensely gratefully for all the work the CDT has done and I wish I could have some kind of skill to help them in any way


  • babblerblingbabblerbling Join Date: 2015-05-27 Member: 204951Members
  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
    Blrg said:
    as we said before, the average player plays 4 hours over a 2 week time span (which is a period of 336h)
    taking into account that we have an average of 200 players at all times, that requires around 16k players:

    players = (336/4) * 200 = 16800

    (basic order of magnitude calculations)
    so yeah, we have around 16k players

    The important point that we all agree is that we are really passionate about the game and we don't want it to die. There are some people more depressed and others more optimistic about the playerbase, but that discussion is not solving anything
    I'm just immensely gratefully for all the work the CDT has done and I wish I could have some kind of skill to help them in any way


    In about 3.000 hours of NS2 I've never met a such big amount of players. Meaning that we always get around 200 players ingame on average. Sometimes going up to 400 and some other time less than 100. There's many players that play the game a couple of times a day, therefore they are part of those 200 many times. What is worrying is the global average of players a day. Those that I knew since I've started to play the game and those that I've met lately, only a few keep playing NS2. It means a lot. You can't say we got 16.800 players in a whole because it means nothing. We clearly find out less servers, less active communities or even less people going on those forums. How can you say everything is fine after digging into this?

    Have a look, always the same 20 people at best communicate in here, what does it represent over a so-called playerbase of 16.000? Steamspy or whatever it is called, is more than inaccurate, I do not say numbers are not real but they're not relevant for that kind of issue. I'm not even talking about fake accounts on NS2 and those that get multiple accounts and use them. And there's plenty, trust me.

    Anyway, if those 16.000 players are real, I'd say why not, where are they? I must have missed them!

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    Blrg said:
    as we said before, the average player plays 4 hours over a 2 week time span (which is a period of 336h)
    taking into account that we have an average of 200 players at all times, that requires around 16k players:

    players = (336/4) * 200 = 16800

    (basic order of magnitude calculations)
    so yeah, we have around 16k players

    The important point that we all agree is that we are really passionate about the game and we don't want it to die. There are some people more depressed and others more optimistic about the playerbase, but that discussion is not solving anything
    I'm just immensely gratefully for all the work the CDT has done and I wish I could have some kind of skill to help them in any way


    Put it another way, 4 hours per 2 weeks is an hour per day on weekends and 0 on weekdays. Does that seem healthy to you? Also, every 4 hours a person accumulates is another person off your total count. Your count is more of a best case scenario than anything resembling actual numbers. Of course, the numbers will be increased by one for every person who only plays two hours per fortnight, but that is even more unhealthy to player count. Someone who only plays an hour a week could just be a busy person or also be on the way to stopping entirely.

    The player count numbers discussion solves nothing. Sure, but at least they recognise that there is an issue to solve, which is the first step. What does covering your eyes and ears and ignoring the issue solve may I ask?
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2015
    Aeglos said:
    Put it another way, 4 hours per 2 weeks is an hour per day on weekends and 0 on weekdays. Does that seem healthy to you? Also, every 4 hours a person accumulates is another person off your total count. Your count is more of a best case scenario than anything resembling actual numbers.
    Actually it is not a best case scenario, it is the real calculation. Assuming that the real average of concurrent players is 200 and that the average number of hours per player in a 2 week period is 4 h

    I have never said that we don't have a problem. I was just confirming that the numbers of 16k individual players given by steam spy make a lot of sense.
    The relevant numbers, though, are the 200 simultaneous players. Which is a really low number and (as far as I know) it has caused the death of australian servers (for example)

    Pelargir said:
    Really? because I meet them all the time. When seeding a server, about half of it usually fills with rookies that only play a round or two and you never see them again (because, you know, they play 4 hours or less in a 2 week time). Eventually the rookies gets replaced with regulars of the server that are waiting in queue.
    That rotation must be even larger in big servers

    Again, I'm not saying that we have plenty and enough players. I am just saying that EVERYONE in here knows the situation. It is nothing that we are ignoring, it is just something that we cannot do anything about at the moment. The only solution proposed was to go free to play, which has been multiple times explained that it is not possible at the moment
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited June 2015
    I still think adding a very interactive tutorial and making the game free could be put up for consideration in the future

    Then have payments for stuff like the shadow skins and what not, sounds silly but I think it'd extend the game a bit longer. The CDT could continue work too and maybe receive some funds from the skins or something, while UWE works on their other projects.
  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Again at the weekend 20 mins trying to get on my server of choice only to not get a slot. Think I'd be better seeding Yo!Clan's server again :p  heehee x
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    ezekel wrote: »
    I still think adding a very interactive tutorial and making the game free could be put up for consideration in the future

    Then have payments for stuff like the shadow skins and what not, sounds silly but I think it'd extend the game a bit longer. The CDT could continue work too and maybe receive some funds from the skins or something, while UWE works on their other projects.

    I've been hoping for this for a very long time, remember when you first loaded up half life you was put through a very linear training level? It was intuitive because it forced you to learn the mechanics otherwise you couldn't progress through the level any further, I think a tutorial is doable it just requires very clever linear map design @IronHorse
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I assume you are paging me @Yojimbo  because you've seen this thing I wrote 10 months ago and want me to share it with others? I think I've linked it before, I cannot recall.
    It even referenced the half life tutorial :tongue: 
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @IronHorse I didn't have a chance to read those documents when you first posted it up. They make really good reading, and I wholly agree with your assessment and solution to the training etc... It is so much work though. The 3D models may be more work than it is worth at this stage, but having the sample simple reference cards is definitely a very worthy thing to have. Even if we think this is too late for NS2, I think having all these great ideas would be good for any future NS related game (NS3 *hint hint), so all these things are ready off the bat.

    I don't have the graphics or the model know how, but if you want, i can write up the text for everything. Do you know the word limit for the "cards" you have designed Iron? So that it is a one pager and no scrolling of text needed? I am really loving the quick reference card idea (even if the model is a static one - it will make interesting reading for some people, and will hopefully hook a few people with the info).
    Was thinking how NS2+ can add a menu item in the main menu, and it may be possible to add this to the main menu (remember you have the code to display news at the main menu already), so this may be hosted remotely to be updated instead of downloaded.

    Let me know what you think.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited June 2015
    2cough wrote: »


    Here's geography tab from steam spy:

    TvBaiSt.png

    Clearly besides "Other," North America has by far the largest player base (include Canada) w/ 27.5%, with RUSSIA a suprising third.


     
    Interesting to see all these countries with more players than owners..... Rampant Piracy in Russia, Canada, Australia, France, Spain and Denmark!! :D
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    At this point i would be okay with more piracy just to have more players.
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