This is so common in the modding world that you shouldn't pay attention to it.
Never hope, take what's here and now.
Dont tell me what to pay attention to!
As recently as the last week of October, I'm positive @Janos was working on hera as he said he was in the combat launch live stream twitch chat.
So either sh!t or get off the pot, I say. 3 years is ridiculous for a map. People have been begging them for it, inquiring, offering to take over work, pretty sure they were approached by CDT also.
Just think it's shit to stake claim on something then let it go. GIVE IT UP!
This is so common in the modding world that you shouldn't pay attention to it.
Never hope, take what's here and now.
Dont tell me what to pay attention to!
As recently as the last week of October, I'm positive @Janos was working on hera as he said he was in the combat launch live stream twitch chat.
So either sh!t or get off the pot, I say. 3 years is ridiculous for a map. People have been begging them for it, inquiring, offering to take over work, pretty sure they were approached by CDT also.
Just think it's shit to stake claim on something then let it go. GIVE IT UP!
More out of curiosity, since I have nothing to contribute. Well, it's not stopping anyone from making their own ns2_hera, is it? Is the problem that the only way people are considering taking over hera the fact that alot of the work is already completed, so it's more attractive to pick it up closer to fruition?
I think its more that the work already done looks absolutely amazing, and people want THAT particular version of the map (i know I do).
Not to mention, that the CDT is already making new maps on their own. MAYBE when those are done they COULD make a brand new hera, but it would just be best for everyone to get more hands on the existing work
Still, i'm pretty sure i can do a map in a month. A fully polished (all little details) in 2. Hera, despite that the original layout and shape are clearly incompatible with NS2. It won't take ages to make something suitable for NS2. Especially with the blender - spark editor exporter from BeigeAlert. I would say "finger in the nose" for the complex geometry parts. But there is no need to make a complex geometry when 'porting' it to NS2.
To me, Hera looks abandonned since a long time. Typical modding thing...
Despite 2 or 3 rooms and the Ready Room, we haven't seen much from the Hera guys. No testing regarding flow, map-balance, performence, etc etc. I don't even if it would be worth it to get the CDT on to the development (assuming the mappers would answer)
Still, i'm pretty sure i can do a map in a month. A fully polished (all little details) in 2. Hera, despite that the original layout and shape are clearly incompatible with NS2. It won't take ages to make something suitable for NS2. Especially with the blender - spark editor exporter from BeigeAlert. I would say "finger in the nose" for the complex geometry parts. But there is no need to make a complex geometry when 'porting' it to NS2.
To me, Hera looks abandonned since a long time. Typical modding thing...
Funny... I was sitting in data core hive yesterday ^^
Still, i'm pretty sure i can do a map in a month. A fully polished (all little details) in 2. Hera, despite that the original layout and shape are clearly incompatible with NS2. It won't take ages to make something suitable for NS2. Especially with the blender - spark editor exporter from BeigeAlert. I would say "finger in the nose" for the complex geometry parts. But there is no need to make a complex geometry when 'porting' it to NS2.
To me, Hera looks abandonned since a long time. Typical modding thing...
Funny... I was sitting in data core hive yesterday ^^
Recently as I understand, ns_hera was ported over for the classic mod. This is not the same ns2_hera which we are referring to. Which are you talking about?
Still, i'm pretty sure i can do a map in a month. A fully polished (all little details) in 2.
Well, that cheered me up no end, funniest thing I've read all day
Having attempted NS and NS2 maps over the years, I can safely say the best mapper in the world could not make a proper ns2 map in 2 months.
Still.
You can cbeck what i've done so far. Station10 and ORA have been made in that time. There have been some updates but nothing requiring months of development. They have as much stuff as other maps (custom & official). And i include retexturing for ORA.
If you take the time to open the files you will see that it's clearly not a cubic geometry (circle things in many places).
And yes i have a other things to do in life.
I have a way of managing projects that allows me to be fast at what i do. Big rocks.... medium rocks...
Doing modding since the late 90's. With time you build methods that are efficient.
@Obraxis : what's in it for me? Oh... gratitude isn't satisfying enough i'm afraid.
@Obraxis : what's in it for me? Oh... gratitude isn't satisfying enough i'm afraid.
If you say you can do something, it's up to you to prove it. Otherwise, it makes you look foolish considering mappers who have spent years of their lives working on maps disagree with your timescale.
Anyone who creates a map that's up to standard gets consideration for it going official. If proving that your own statement is true isn't enough motivation for you, then I'm afraid we can't take your statement seriously.
I don't have to. The maps are already here.
Even if you consider that I start ORA right after Station10 (Wich is not true-got other things to do) it took from jan 26 2014 to may 21 (check steam workshop) to make ORA. Well under "years" and btw i was not on hollyday nor jobless... i mean 3,5 months on hollyday wouldn't be .... economicaly sound. Here are the facts.
For what it's worth, these 2 maps have plenty of elements based on circle or part of it. I'm sure you get the point. I have nothing to envy, as feedback on the art department was positive. But that's easy as the props are beautiful also (thx to Cory i guess).
It's not my fault if many cannot organize themselves, or if they wander in the editor waiting for inspiration to come. And finnally it's not my fault if they don't optimize their ways of doing things by simply changing the keyboard shortcuts in the editor (amongst other things). Or use now the plugin from BeigeAlert (again, nice work - keep going for the prop exporter).
My point isn't about dedication but efficiency.
I'm opened to discusion if anyone needs help on that precise matter.
Nice bait though.
(Forgive me for grammar and spelling: posted from mobile )
I don't have to. The maps are already here.
Even if you consider that I start ORA right after Station10 (Wich is not true-got other things to do) it took from jan 26 2014 to may 21 (check steam workshop) to make ORA. Well under "years" and btw i was not on hollyday nor jobless... i mean 3,5 months on hollyday wouldn't be .... economicaly sound. Here are the facts.
For what it's worth, these 2 maps have plenty of elements based on circle or part of it. I'm sure you get the point. I have nothing to envy, as feedback on the art department was positive. But that's easy as the props are beautiful also (thx to Cory i guess).
It's not my fault if many cannot organize themselves, or if they wander in the editor waiting for inspiration to come. And finnally it's not my fault if they don't optimize their ways of doing things by simply changing the keyboard shortcuts in the editor (amongst other things). Or use now the plugin from BeigeAlert (again, nice work - keep going for the prop exporter).
My point isn't about dedication but efficiency.
I'm opened to discusion if anyone needs help on that precise matter.
Nice bait though.
(Forgive me for grammar and spelling: posted from mobile )
Without sounding offensive may you please post screenshots of your work in correlation to these "facts" you state.
*EDIT* Forgive me I didn't see your hyperlink in signature, I think I've only played that map once or twice awhile ago, however @UncleCrunch do you deem the map "finished"?
without being sucked into this penis-comparing-fest-for-mappers: those mappictures look cool.
I reallly like the designer-commander chair in outer rim (bit like star trek).
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
A "detailed" level is more than just lots of props and curved geo. Open up biodome for example. It looks amazing, and all the little pieces are working together to make these beautiful rooms. It has nothing to do with the quantity of the props used, it has everything to do with how they are used. You can't just scatter a random assortment of props around the level, they have to have a purpose -- you should always be able to walk into a room in ns2 and be able to deduce what its purpose is, even without seeing the name of the room.
Then you have to be sure to keep a consistent theme or art-style in your level. Just looking at the ORA screenshots, it's kinda all over the place. You're mixing all the different asset types -- often times in the same room. You've got grungy refinery/tram stuff right next to clean descent/biodome stuff. I see many places where it's a single floor texture for an entire room -- unbroken, no interesting patterns created. Lots of blank walls too. That's not detailed.
I'm not saying this to be a dick, I'm trying to get you to see just how high the art standard is for ns2 maps. I'm not saying your maps are bad, I'm not saying you can't call them finished. I'm just saying, if you make a bold claim like "I can make a fully detailed ns2 map in 2 months", you can't also say that anything less than stock-map levels of completion is acceptable. Otherwise... where's the standard for declaring a map is "fully detailed?".
A "detailed" level is more than just lots of props and curved geo. Open up biodome for example. It looks amazing, and all the little pieces are working together to make these beautiful rooms. It has nothing to do with the quantity of the props used, it has everything to do with how they are used. You can't just scatter a random assortment of props around the level, they have to have a purpose -- you should always be able to walk into a room in ns2 and be able to deduce what its purpose is, even without seeing the name of the room.
Then you have to be sure to keep a consistent theme or art-style in your level. Just looking at the ORA screenshots, it's kinda all over the place. You're mixing all the different asset types -- often times in the same room. You've got grungy refinery/tram stuff right next to clean descent/biodome stuff. I see many places where it's a single floor texture for an entire room -- unbroken, no interesting patterns created. Lots of blank walls too. That's not detailed.
I'm not saying this to be a dick, I'm trying to get you to see just how high the art standard is for ns2 maps. I'm not saying your maps are bad, I'm not saying you can't call them finished. I'm just saying, if you make a bold claim like "I can make a fully detailed ns2 map in 2 months", you can't also say that anything less than stock-map levels of completion is acceptable. Otherwise... where's the standard for declaring a map is "fully detailed?".
The Biodome props are far from fitting together perfectly, for your information. Believe me I tried hard even with Eclipse props. You can even see that in the map itself. Many 'eye candy' tricks all over the place. They did what was needed and only that for the 'theme'. Nothing more. And that's ok considering project management. And considering when you play you don't pay attention to the single pixel that is misaligned.
Mappers work with what they have, what's available. And if you browse the props list on a regular basis you couldn't miss that a lot of props have their little problems (ex: orientation). Or a piece that don't exist for a set of walls/pipes (45°/90° turns etc) Mixing props isn't a problem as everyone does. And simply because UWE does too... Yes they do too. And another little thing.
So it's easy to say that while mappers don't have an official prop exporter that works with free software (Ex: Blender). Unless you have thousand of dollars to spend on 3DSMAX (even for 3DSm9), forget it. I mean; we're not supposed to use that cracked kind of software, is it ? Or maybe i missed something ? Well i choose not to for many reasons, and the last one was to get caught. You should probably know that about me.
Yes a map isn't to throw props everywhere. Well... we have to exclude Descent, Biodome & Eclipse on that one. Those props are somehow popular on some custom maps. Maybe Kodiak should go too? i don't know.
Considering Art, UWE used the same tricks everybody does (industry/free mappers). Plus you can spot many dirty jobs here and there, Many holes (Tram is a cheese), mixed/welded occlusion geometry with regular geometry (what the h!!!!), low light to hide here and there, this or that... I could go on forever as I did analyzed ALL of them. I had to learn first, so... opening files was an obvious step (first thing first etc.). NS2_Veil is my favorite on that matter. There, my friend, you will see how props are used. It's exactly the same. But i won't blame UWE for that : time, money, deadlines, etc.
Considering SF standards. Well... You like or you don't, but I'm not sure it's fully constrained to the usual SF stuff. Dyno-Lerk vs Cyber-Marine... Hmmm OK that's fine. It has a NS1 legacy and such. I consider it more like it's a "we did it like that". Usual in this industry. But saying 'perfect'... well Ok "Jesus lerk" is fun and saved it.
Considering logic and architecture. Well... they had to make layouts for strategic purposes. So I wouldn't push too hard on that if i were you. I mean : Bar->Lockers->BallCourt1 (there a second)->Maintenance->Courtyard. Looks messy to me. Bare walls and such. for each new map I loaded for the first time, I was asking myself "what is it?". But I won't blame here either. Same reasons.
I have no problem with your opinions, even if the screenshots are outdated (i should replace them someday). Taste is personal.
What can annoy me is that for any custom map, you can say that (mixing things, single texture, even grey box?). But you forgot to include official maps that do the same. All of them ? Well, i'm sure you can find the answer by yourself.
There is only one exception if we can consider it like that. UWE have the means to export Props from 3DSMAX9 at will as they had to buy licenses for making that game. CDT may benefit from UWE, a set of Keys (gracefully for NS2 purpose only). So yes they have an advantage we don't have. They can make a set of props that will bring a 'theme'.
If we (the mapper/modder) had that exporter which was a key element for making Descent, Biodome and most of all Eclipse; there would be many more set of props with many different styles and 100% lagal. Trust me I would have been really, really fast on that. Reeeeaally fast. I mean I wouldn't start a map until I got the prop set completed. It's a corner stone for any proper artistic research (considering common sense, yeah i know not everybody has it). As other mappers would probably have done.
So it's easy to say that while mappers don't have an official prop exporter that works with free software (Ex: Blender). Unless you have thousand of dollars to spend on 3DSMAX (even for 3DSm9), forget it. I mean; we're not supposed to use that cracked kind of software, is it ? Or maybe i missed something ? Well i choose not to for many reasons, and the last one was to get caught. You should probably know that about me.
I've made a prop exporter for Blender, you even commented on the thread. It doesn't support animations yet (soon will!), but 99% of all the props in ns2 are static anyways. All of the custom stuff I did for Derelict was exported with that blender plugin.
But you don't need custom props to make a visually stunning map... they can certainly help if they're good, but they're not needed. Just look at Kodiak. The only custom stuff in there is re-textured rock props and a simple tree model. Loki managed to make a level using 99% existing assets that not only is visually appealing, but also looks like a new style of level. Sure, you can pick out all the individual props and textures and say "i've seen that before", but the way he used them together created something that was greater than the sum of its parts. For example, he shrunk down a large floor hatch prop and used it as a door (if I remember correctly). Even in Derelict, I made a few custom props for him, but 99% of the level is Loki's work, and Loki doesn't make custom props.
Comments
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Jekt_/
Sorry I'm not really from there. Don't tell the pope.
Dont tell me what to pay attention to!
As recently as the last week of October, I'm positive @Janos was working on hera as he said he was in the combat launch live stream twitch chat.
So either sh!t or get off the pot, I say. 3 years is ridiculous for a map. People have been begging them for it, inquiring, offering to take over work, pretty sure they were approached by CDT also.
Just think it's shit to stake claim on something then let it go. GIVE IT UP!
More out of curiosity, since I have nothing to contribute. Well, it's not stopping anyone from making their own ns2_hera, is it? Is the problem that the only way people are considering taking over hera the fact that alot of the work is already completed, so it's more attractive to pick it up closer to fruition?
I think its more that the work already done looks absolutely amazing, and people want THAT particular version of the map (i know I do).
Not to mention, that the CDT is already making new maps on their own. MAYBE when those are done they COULD make a brand new hera, but it would just be best for everyone to get more hands on the existing work
it's like 3 year-long blue balls.
btw @unclecrunch I was jk about don't tell me...
To me, Hera looks abandonned since a long time. Typical modding thing...
You are very welcome to try.
Well, that cheered me up no end, funniest thing I've read all day
Having attempted NS and NS2 maps over the years, I can safely say the best mapper in the world could not make a proper ns2 map in 2 months.
Funny... I was sitting in data core hive yesterday ^^
It really depends if you have anything better to do or not.
Recently as I understand, ns_hera was ported over for the classic mod. This is not the same ns2_hera which we are referring to. Which are you talking about?
Still.
You can cbeck what i've done so far. Station10 and ORA have been made in that time. There have been some updates but nothing requiring months of development. They have as much stuff as other maps (custom & official). And i include retexturing for ORA.
If you take the time to open the files you will see that it's clearly not a cubic geometry (circle things in many places).
And yes i have a other things to do in life.
I have a way of managing projects that allows me to be fast at what i do. Big rocks.... medium rocks...
Doing modding since the late 90's. With time you build methods that are efficient.
@Obraxis : what's in it for me? Oh... gratitude isn't satisfying enough i'm afraid.
If you say you can do something, it's up to you to prove it. Otherwise, it makes you look foolish considering mappers who have spent years of their lives working on maps disagree with your timescale.
Anyone who creates a map that's up to standard gets consideration for it going official. If proving that your own statement is true isn't enough motivation for you, then I'm afraid we can't take your statement seriously.
Even if you consider that I start ORA right after Station10 (Wich is not true-got other things to do) it took from jan 26 2014 to may 21 (check steam workshop) to make ORA. Well under "years" and btw i was not on hollyday nor jobless... i mean 3,5 months on hollyday wouldn't be .... economicaly sound. Here are the facts.
For what it's worth, these 2 maps have plenty of elements based on circle or part of it. I'm sure you get the point. I have nothing to envy, as feedback on the art department was positive. But that's easy as the props are beautiful also (thx to Cory i guess).
It's not my fault if many cannot organize themselves, or if they wander in the editor waiting for inspiration to come. And finnally it's not my fault if they don't optimize their ways of doing things by simply changing the keyboard shortcuts in the editor (amongst other things). Or use now the plugin from BeigeAlert (again, nice work - keep going for the prop exporter).
My point isn't about dedication but efficiency.
I'm opened to discusion if anyone needs help on that precise matter.
Nice bait though.
(Forgive me for grammar and spelling: posted from mobile )
I dont even know where to start responding to this
Without sounding offensive may you please post screenshots of your work in correlation to these "facts" you state.
*EDIT* Forgive me I didn't see your hyperlink in signature, I think I've only played that map once or twice awhile ago, however @UncleCrunch do you deem the map "finished"?
Station T10:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=220998842
Outer Rim Ark:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=262105837
I reallly like the designer-commander chair in outer rim (bit like star trek).
Here's hoping you all manage to relight the bonfires and usher in another age of fire.
Then you have to be sure to keep a consistent theme or art-style in your level. Just looking at the ORA screenshots, it's kinda all over the place. You're mixing all the different asset types -- often times in the same room. You've got grungy refinery/tram stuff right next to clean descent/biodome stuff. I see many places where it's a single floor texture for an entire room -- unbroken, no interesting patterns created. Lots of blank walls too. That's not detailed.
I'm not saying this to be a dick, I'm trying to get you to see just how high the art standard is for ns2 maps. I'm not saying your maps are bad, I'm not saying you can't call them finished. I'm just saying, if you make a bold claim like "I can make a fully detailed ns2 map in 2 months", you can't also say that anything less than stock-map levels of completion is acceptable. Otherwise... where's the standard for declaring a map is "fully detailed?".
The Biodome props are far from fitting together perfectly, for your information. Believe me I tried hard even with Eclipse props. You can even see that in the map itself. Many 'eye candy' tricks all over the place. They did what was needed and only that for the 'theme'. Nothing more. And that's ok considering project management. And considering when you play you don't pay attention to the single pixel that is misaligned.
Mappers work with what they have, what's available. And if you browse the props list on a regular basis you couldn't miss that a lot of props have their little problems (ex: orientation). Or a piece that don't exist for a set of walls/pipes (45°/90° turns etc) Mixing props isn't a problem as everyone does. And simply because UWE does too... Yes they do too. And another little thing.
So it's easy to say that while mappers don't have an official prop exporter that works with free software (Ex: Blender). Unless you have thousand of dollars to spend on 3DSMAX (even for 3DSm9), forget it. I mean; we're not supposed to use that cracked kind of software, is it ? Or maybe i missed something ? Well i choose not to for many reasons, and the last one was to get caught. You should probably know that about me.
Yes a map isn't to throw props everywhere. Well... we have to exclude Descent, Biodome & Eclipse on that one. Those props are somehow popular on some custom maps. Maybe Kodiak should go too? i don't know.
Considering Art, UWE used the same tricks everybody does (industry/free mappers). Plus you can spot many dirty jobs here and there, Many holes (Tram is a cheese), mixed/welded occlusion geometry with regular geometry (what the h!!!!), low light to hide here and there, this or that... I could go on forever as I did analyzed ALL of them. I had to learn first, so... opening files was an obvious step (first thing first etc.). NS2_Veil is my favorite on that matter. There, my friend, you will see how props are used. It's exactly the same. But i won't blame UWE for that : time, money, deadlines, etc.
Considering SF standards. Well... You like or you don't, but I'm not sure it's fully constrained to the usual SF stuff. Dyno-Lerk vs Cyber-Marine... Hmmm OK that's fine. It has a NS1 legacy and such. I consider it more like it's a "we did it like that". Usual in this industry. But saying 'perfect'... well Ok "Jesus lerk" is fun and saved it.
Considering logic and architecture. Well... they had to make layouts for strategic purposes. So I wouldn't push too hard on that if i were you. I mean : Bar->Lockers->BallCourt1 (there a second)->Maintenance->Courtyard. Looks messy to me. Bare walls and such. for each new map I loaded for the first time, I was asking myself "what is it?". But I won't blame here either. Same reasons.
I have no problem with your opinions, even if the screenshots are outdated (i should replace them someday). Taste is personal.
What can annoy me is that for any custom map, you can say that (mixing things, single texture, even grey box?). But you forgot to include official maps that do the same. All of them ? Well, i'm sure you can find the answer by yourself.
There is only one exception if we can consider it like that. UWE have the means to export Props from 3DSMAX9 at will as they had to buy licenses for making that game. CDT may benefit from UWE, a set of Keys (gracefully for NS2 purpose only). So yes they have an advantage we don't have. They can make a set of props that will bring a 'theme'.
If we (the mapper/modder) had that exporter which was a key element for making Descent, Biodome and most of all Eclipse; there would be many more set of props with many different styles and 100% lagal. Trust me I would have been really, really fast on that. Reeeeaally fast. I mean I wouldn't start a map until I got the prop set completed. It's a corner stone for any proper artistic research (considering common sense, yeah i know not everybody has it). As other mappers would probably have done.
Have fun checking all that an the secret rooms.
I've made a prop exporter for Blender, you even commented on the thread. It doesn't support animations yet (soon will!), but 99% of all the props in ns2 are static anyways. All of the custom stuff I did for Derelict was exported with that blender plugin.
But you don't need custom props to make a visually stunning map... they can certainly help if they're good, but they're not needed. Just look at Kodiak. The only custom stuff in there is re-textured rock props and a simple tree model. Loki managed to make a level using 99% existing assets that not only is visually appealing, but also looks like a new style of level. Sure, you can pick out all the individual props and textures and say "i've seen that before", but the way he used them together created something that was greater than the sum of its parts. For example, he shrunk down a large floor hatch prop and used it as a door (if I remember correctly). Even in Derelict, I made a few custom props for him, but 99% of the level is Loki's work, and Loki doesn't make custom props.