I only tend to play on yo, but they've been pretty solid as far as servers go. Minus the shite lag that you get after a maps been on 10 hours of course.
FLG do however appear to have been left out to dry by UWE,
they should rightly have expected more support from UWE as a publisher than they got.
Should they have expected the lack of advertising and overt support from UWE? No.
Except they should. NS2 was marketed like shit honestly. NS2 dlc was marketed like shit and got continuously worse, to the point where kodiak was deemed a failure because someone set expectations too high honestly, lol...
The only reason NS2 has survived this long is because it has a dedicated community. For a long time UWE have done nothing for the game. Their decisions in marketing have gone from bad to worse.
There seems like no communication was had between UWE and FLG about NS2 being on sale CHEAPER than Combat was during the halloween release LOL. That's such a "fuck you", there was a lot of hype coming from UWE about combat before-hand then the release came along and UWE seem to have ignored it, in favor of pushing DLC for NS2 instead.
There's the the debate on cost, honestly, in my opinion everyone who owned NS2 should have been given a discount off the game price. If it wasn't for all the NS2 players, FLG wouldn't have had a community to support them during development with testing and so forth. I mean the cost of combat for me was almost equal to what I paid for NS2!
So yeah UWE screwed up but I really didn't expect anything else, they're top of the class at that, so it makes me wonder why other people think they we're going to ever do more.
I was told by a uwe member on the subnautica forums that they were communicating with flg. I asked because they had set the 270 patch and subnautica release on the same day as combat release. .....were they?
Edit - found thread. Bottom of that thread link. Hugh's response to me.
I like to point out the poster thread as to relate UWE's capability. Reading through that thing makes it sound like a complete scam. So far, not one person had actually chimed in and said "Hey, I got mine!"
I like to point out the poster thread as to relate UWE's capability. Reading through that thing makes it sound like a complete scam. So far, not one person had actually chimed in and said "Hey, I got mine!"
I've always been a pretty vocal critic of UWE's marketing/PR strategy but to be fair UWE isn't really behind the Kickstarter prizes for the NS2WC, it was an event created by the community
Combat took a lot of crap form the community.
It's having a hard time taking off and Faultline is the one that's taking the damage.
Well done guys, pat yourself on the back.
You defended the honour of NS2 and satisfied your hunger for entitlement by stabbing the backs of people who contributed a lot more than most of us put together.
Hope you're proud...
Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone here, but I'm sure anyone who this does apply to is more than aware of it.
Not to say that everyone should like the game, far from it.
Damn right everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but it's one thing having an opinion and another to take direct malicious actions to impact sales.
The ton of negativity when the game is at it's most fragile. The bad reviews on the steam page after minutes of playing. So much hate directed at a team of guys that are just trying to get their foot in the door...
Down vote me all you want, but you know who you are and you should be ashamed
Jesus fucking christ. Posts like this reek much moreso of entitlement than any of the negative reviews I've read. As somebody who's bought combat, and has actively tried to offset the hate it has been getting outside of these forums, the "leave combat alone" bandwagon is so rage-inducing that it is slowly driving me toward jumping ship onto the hate-train.
If people are allowed to have opinions they are allowed to voice them too. Combat is not exempt from bad reviews just because you wanted it to succeed. Nobody should be ashamed for not enjoying something and expressing dissatisfaction. Also, whilst there's been a lot of hate directed at UWE, I haven't seen ANY directed at FLG. Perhaps they are subject to the consequences of the UWE hate, which is regrettable. However, as they developed a product that UWE has a stake in, this is entirely fair - they signed the deal with UWE as publisher, they get what comes with it. They are not shielded from any potentially bad consequences of their business partnerships.
At the end of the day, people aren't not buying combat because some random internet commenters are saying it sucks. Blaming the negative reviews for Combat's lack of success is ridiculous.
Nobody owes FLG anything, especially as this is their first release. Nobody has to buy the game. Nobody has to enjoy it. Nobody has to recommend it or sing it's praises. Likewise, nobody has to refrain from recommending against it or actively insulting the game. All of this is fair game. The degree of which people will do any of these things is dictated by the product itself and how well it is sold.
Maybe instead of publishing FLG's standalone combat mod that nobody wants to play UWE could've hired FLG developpers to fix ns2 engine which is still broken.
What you should not do is whine about costumers being unhappy with the product, wether it's a false sense of entitlement or not is beside the point.
UWE published it so they are making money off of a rip off, and i personally actually feel bad for FLG because it's sad that they put work into a project that is such a failure.
They would've been better off working for UWE on ns2 engine.
UWE appear to have no shame, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that publishing ns2:Combat as a standalone was a terrible idea.
My advice to FLG, keep working on your own game and sever ties with UWE, they don't deserve it.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I have no issue with people bashing combat as a game, that is their individual choice.
My problem is with people who are bashing Faultline Games and down voting the game for something that is entirely UWE's fault.
UWE have a history of not finishing what they started/not following a job through to completion. This has shone through completely in their half-assed attempt at publishing.
I love and respect the work of UWE, but you have to admit their track record is terrible.
NS was a mod that was never finished, always changing and ultimately left at a point where it was quite a mess.
But they moved on and we all moved on with them for this great idea, a standalone version of NS2, this is where they would sort out everything that they had left in a messed up state in NS right?
Wrong.
NS2 was released in an unfinished state, with lots of problems in both the gameplay and the engine. But that's ok, because they will be supporting and fixing it for a long time after release right?
Wrong.
There was a period of a few months after release where some of the UWE team worked on NS2, but most of the the updates and changes came from one or two UWE staff and a large portion of the community. So they put together the CDT, while UWE headed off onto it nexts project...
Then UWE had this great idea to become a publisher. They surely would get that right, I mean, they have all this marketing knowledge now, and we all know the job of a publisher is very simple, market the game, distribute the game, and make sure it sells well.
Except, they didn't, UWE did none of the traditional publisher work, they didn't market or distribute the game.
Sure they got it on steam, but that's it.
Essentially, UWE sold FLG a publisher deal, and instead gave them a liscensing deal, we'll charge you for using our IP, because that is all UWE have given FLG.
And yet, everyone attacks FLG and Combat for the shambles, when the blame needs to be laid firmly at the feet of UWE.
UWE are not supporting the engine, UWE are not supporting combat, UWE aren't even working on NS2, and haven't been since about 6 months after release.
This is what infuriates me. If you have an issue with the combat release, with the price you have to pay, and they way the launch was handled, you have to blame the publisher.
If the game is crap, you blame the devloper. EA has taken a hit as a publisher and been bashed time and time again for it's decisions, and yet UWE seem to be untouchable, despite being a far worse publisher than EA.
It's one thing to like the idea of being a publisher, but publishing is a seriously important job, and is another in a long list of projects that UWE have failed with.
I will continue to back UWE in their future projects, and I hope one day they release a game that is complete at launch, (not talking early access, but the proper launch date).
I would also advise UWE to seriously forget about becoming a publisher, unless they learn that a publisher takes on the responsibility for everything that isn't making the game itself, something which they did not do in this case.
I mean, they released an update and DLC for NS2, as well as the earliest access release of Subnautica, on the day their first published release came out, even EA don't make screw ups that big...
I hope people don't take this as being overly negative, as I say, I respect UWE for all they have achieved, but they have to take the blame fair and square for the whole combat fiasco, it was their idea, and they didn't follow it through properly to completion, as is a common theme for their projects to date.
If you think combat is crap in it's own right, blame FLG, but if you think it's not worth the money, should have been a mod, or should have had bigger discounts for NS2 players etc, you should take those complaints to UWE, and leave them off the combat pages.
The fact that UWE released an update for NS2 the same date, should be of no consequence. A brand new game is almost always going to be more appealing to a consumer than an update. Moreover, a consumer that stumbles upon the NS2 update, and starts researching wtf NS2 is, will VERY likely stumble upon NS2:Combat as well. So do not make the mistake of thinking that any publicity that NS2 gets, is stolen or lost in NS2:C.
Given that, a consumer now has a choice, NS2 or Combat (ignoring both and neither for the sake of the argument). If Combat cannot compete with a simple ass update - then how the duck do you expect combat to compete with titles like CS:GO, Quake Live, CoD, UT that also all have halloween updates and sales? Are we going to blame Epic and Activision for ruining NS2:Combat? The notion is ridiculous.
P.S. Blizzards Overwatch was just announced, so if NS2:C wasn't already dead, this will be the nail in the coffin anyway. RIP.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
@SantaClaws - You mis-understand, I am not saying the updates caused combat to be unsuccessful, I am saying UWE failed in the most basic aspects of publishing, as a publisher, with Combat. The update release was just an additional "see how much we don't care about you and the game" kick in the face, personalised for FLG.
As a prominent modder of NS2, I would be lying if I didn't admit to having had a word or two with UWE about monetising mods. My criticism of UWE as a publisher is likely to end any plans for getting my mods published with them, but at the same time, from a developers perspective, and seeing what has happened with FLG, I would admit to being very wary about the prospect of taking up any such offer now anyway.
I am still going to buy all UWE games, as they always have great aspects, but my expectations of UWE products is always reasonable, they tend to deliver what I expect. However, for me, their performance as a publisher was way below their normal standard and even I'd be worried about purchasing a game in the future they are just a publisher of.
If I would hesitate to buy a UWE published game, I would also hesitate to get published by them, despite the great opportunity, they have effectively put a massive hole in the future of FLG as a development team, and I am not sure if I suffered that as a single dev, I'd have the ability or resources to move onto future projects.
For me, the biggest and most important thing is that the publishing failure of UWE, does not destroy the development dream of FLG. That would be a terrible outcome, if UWE destroyed a very promising game dev team because of the publishing failures that have taken place.
Wasn't the outcome pretty obvious from the start? The whole idea is ridiculous, I mean cmon. Standalone of a mod of an older game that has fluctuated down to 300-600 players. Even with new weapons and game modes, it basically looks the same and has the same performance as NS2. 5 maps. 15 bucks.
Nice business plan. (I know its not about the money, but you still want people to play your game and have it live a while and not just a couple of weeks?)
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
@Soul_Rider Yes of course, UWE has a part to play in this pretty horrible launch of a game, but FLG are not completely without fault here either in my opinion. They made a game that is nowhere near a polished, perfect game like you are suggesting. I think that if it was interesting, and had enough content to justify the $15 or maybe even real matchmaking you would be seeing a lot more people playing the game. You have to remember that a lot of people were turned away from the game after initially trying it out.
I do agree with you 100% about UWE. Pretty lackluster effort on their part.
Since @Soul_Rider isn't responding, I'll post the alternatives that I see.
1) Release NS2:C on another date.
2) Release NS2 b270 content patch on another date
3) Pour in a ton of money to promote NS2:C more than they already had.
We can rule out 2), because Halloween is NS1 and NS2's anniversary. It's pretty much tradition at this point that UWE celebrates that. Moreover, it would be absolutely foolish for UWE not to take advantage of Steam's Halloween sale.
We can rule out 3), because why not spend that money on promoting NS2 or Subnautica which is where UWE are putting most of their stakes.
That leaves 1). So the question remains; on which date?
Case for Halloween:
* Steam holds their annual Halloween sale, you automatically have more eyeballs than usual.
- Of course this would hold true on any holiday sale.
* The NS scene is celebrating their anniversary, why not release the next title in the franchise on that day?
+ Any publicity the NS scene gets as a whole, is publicity that NS2:Combat gets.
You could argue that maybe they should have waited for the steam christmas sale before release. But I'd maintain that we would see similar results, as UWE are likely going to issue a sale for NS2 on that as well.
The only major difference being of course, that FLG would have more time developing - but keep in mind: This Costs Money.
Case for a random date outside big steam sales:
* You don't have to compete as hard for the eyeballs
- Of course you have less total eyeballs
Any amount of advertising would be a good start, this was entirely lacking from uwe.
For what it's worth, despite the current state of the game in combat, I really like it. It has promise.
The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.
I want more people to play combat, because it is actually good fun!
The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.
I keep reading this weird dismissal of valid criticism. There's a reason those reviews are popular, and to claim they're not complaints about the game is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Yes, if you choose to ignore all the parts that are wrong about a game, of course it's a great game!
Defining what context we're allowed to review a game around defeats the point of an honest review.
There are balance issues, and some of the criticism is entirely valid. I'm not a combat fan boy, but I am an optimist and maybe when it comes to ns I'm a romantic, too.
Both you and Sebb disagreeing with my previous comment is nothing short of ridiculous.
The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.
It's low because people don't want to play it.
Edit: I don't just mean the wider audience, the folks who bought it are not playing it.
I'm not sure what more promotion could've been done without making significant investments.
I've seen NS2:combat featured on steam, it was posted on reddit, it was posted on this site, and lots of youtubers reviewed it, including big names like Total Biscuit, there was a twitch 96 hour stream, there are articles/blogs..
524 of 633 people found gimmic's review helpful. I think it's funny that you give a negative review and not recommend the game, yet you continue to play it (34 hrs so far). Hmmm wonder why nobody else has bought it to help populate those servers w/ you... If it's like you've been tricked into purchasing the same game again, why haven't those 34 hrs been in ns2?
I'm reading all these complaints and things, people saying they're valid reasons... but being butthurt is not a valid enough reason in my opinion.
I have no issue with people bashing combat as a game, that is their individual choice.
...
If you think combat is crap in it's own right, blame FLG,
I think the actual game has problems, but I think they can make it good. I can't believe a community that is so forgiving to UWE and their "Fall 2009's" is so hostile to a new young development team being given a break by UWE.
I would have thought FLG deserved the same level of respect afforded to Charlie, this was his idea, his dream, but the community has been so hostile towards them for things that are not their fault.
As for would should UWE have done. That is simple, advertise and promote. That is what a publisher does. A publisher works the same in the games industry as it does in the book industry as it does in any industry. Someone creates something and the publisher is responsible for getting it sold.
If UWE say they were not publishing, they were just charging for their IP and assets, then fair enough, but they didn't even make a forum post/steam news update about the release of Combat. How many people who own NS2 even now NS2 combat is available as a standalone?
Not many read the forums, and as there has been no press coverage of note, you can bet a fair few of them could have at least been notified through a very simple news post.
I have to say that this is entirely my opinion, I assume there was a lot of support being provided in private that we are completely unaware of, but publicly it seems very much like UWE said, hey, we've had this idea, and set it in motion.
I understand UWE is a fairly unstructured company like valve, but even so, i just would like to have seen more public support from UWE.
524 of 633 people found gimmic's review helpful. I think it's funny that you give a negative review and not recommend the game, yet you continue to play it (34 hrs so far). Hmmm wonder why nobody else has bought it to help populate those servers w/ you... If it's like you've been tricked into purchasing the same game again, why haven't those 34 hrs been in ns2?
I'm reading all these complaints and things, people saying they're valid reasons... but being butthurt is not a valid enough reason in my opinion.
=(( )
I never purchased this game, and I wouldn't have. I was given a copy. I do enjoy NS2 Combat, I enjoyed it as a mod. It was great to get in and warm up a bit, or as a break from real NS2. Even if the game was free and obtainable at the price point I lucked out on I would still review it in the same way. The price is simply one small factor in a number of issues.
You act as if something found to be entertaining can't be criticised. I don't see where 'being butthurt' comes into play at all, that's just an ad hominem attack on the person rather than on the points of discussion.
Ok, I've been trying to avoid getting drawn into this whole debate, as it really can't amount to anything good. But, I just see statements like this and can't let them pass.
UWE have a history of not finishing what they started/not following a job through to completion. This has shone through completely in their half-assed attempt at publishing.
NS2 was released in an unfinished state, with lots of problems in both the gameplay and the engine.
Let me beak the news to you. No game is finished when it is released. There are always bugs. There are always missing features that the developers had full intentions of putting in, but had to cut at the last minute, but usually the development is so closed that the players had no idea that stuff was planned in the first place. Gameplay problems, and in many cases performance problems, especially on a PC release with the variety of different system setups players have. And for a multiplayer game it is much harder to have a fully polished, balanced playing experience on launch. At some point you have to step back and say, ok, we just need to call this ready for release - not DONE- just releasable.
Everyone is going to have a different opinion about what can be considered a complete product, so there is no use arguing that point. But for many games, it all ends at release. The game is put out to the public, and with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 patches after to fix a few glaring issues, or perhaps a handful of paid DLC, the developers shift gears and begin work on their next project.
However, in our case, we did continue development of NS2, supporting, fixing, adding new features and content. And then I read stuff like this:
But that's ok, because they will be supporting and fixing it for a long time after release right?
There was a period of a few months after release where some of the UWE team worked on NS2, but most of the the updates and changes came from one or two UWE staff and a large portion of the community. So they put together the CDT, while UWE headed off onto it nexts project...
Wow. We spent over a year continuing to put time and resources into NS2 development, most of that time with the entire team working on it. NS2 released October of 2012. Here's a blogpost talking about a release on our year anniversary http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-one-year-anniversary/
While community members were contributing some fixes at that point, most of UWE had still been working their butts off to continue to make NS2 better.
We then released Eclipse 11 months ago. By the end of development of that map it involved all of our internal mappers and artists. A vast entire new art set was created for that map, which is not cheap. Even after that there were patches that still had UWE members like Andi and Lukas spending a good chunk of time contributing. The official CDT rollout wasn't until, what 8 months ago?
So, yeah, the amount of time and money we as a company invested in support of NS2 after release was pretty insane, and honestly probably not the most financially viable strategy for our company. But deep down at our core we believed in the game and the community and wanted to do all we could to improve NS2 and keep it alive, up until we just couldn't justify it anymore and would risk going out of business.
Then UWE had this great idea to become a publisher. They surely would get that right, I mean, they have all this marketing knowledge now, and we all know the job of a publisher is very simple, market the game, distribute the game, and make sure it sells well.
Except, they didn't, UWE did none of the traditional publisher work, they didn't market or distribute the game.
Sure they got it on steam, but that's it.
Essentially, UWE sold FLG a publisher deal, and instead gave them a liscensing deal, we'll charge you for using our IP, because that is all UWE have given FLG.
And yet, everyone attacks FLG and Combat for the shambles, when the blame needs to be laid firmly at the feet of UWE.
We were very up front with FLG about what role we were going to play in Combat's release. As a company we couldn't afford to put a lot of money and time into any development or large amount of promotion for Combat. We knew that going in, they knew it. But we all believed that Combat deserved a chance to be released from the shackles of being a mod for NS2, constantly breaking with each NS2 update, and the FLG could not justify spending any more time on something they couldn't make any money from.
We believe in FLG as a company, and want to see them succeed. We can argue pricepoints for Combat, or whether it should have been released for free to the close to a million people who technically own NS2 (just think of all the people who got NS2 for a $1 as part of a humble bundle). But at the end of the day, if FLG was going to be able to get their company off the ground, they were going to need money, and a reasonable amount of it. When you drop the price too low, the developers are making virtually no money once Steam takes their cut.
FLGs and UWE wanted to see Combat be able to stand on its own, without all the trappings of NS2. We didn't want to be overly hands on, with either development or PR, because FLG needed to establish themselves as their own entity. That said, there was still support from UWE behind the scenes.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
As for would should UWE have done. That is simple, advertise and promote. That is what a publisher does. A publisher works the same in the games industry as it does in the book industry as it does in any industry. Someone creates something and the publisher is responsible for getting it sold.
If UWE say they were not publishing, they were just charging for their IP and assets, then fair enough, but they didn't even make a forum post/steam news update about the release of Combat.
How many people who own NS2 even now NS2 combat is available as a standalone?
Not many read the forums, and as there has been no press coverage of note, you can bet a fair few of them could have at least been notified through a very simple news post.
This is just speculations. I would like to see some evidence supporting this claim.
why the negativity towards uwe? i dont really understand it at all. Sure ns2 isnt perfect but they worked long and hard on it over the past few years improving it and turning it into a good game. Its only to be expected that at some point a developer has to decide to stop working on older games and focus on something new, If ns2 had made millions for uwe then i could understand the player base wanting them to continue working on it until people no longer want to play it like dayz for example. But it didnt make millions and uwe have to think about whats next to keep there studio alive and thats a new game. I doubt you can wring anymore money out of ns2. im actually amazed that the cdt was created and that they are dedicated enough to continue working on ns2 for free for the fans. That doesnt happen with most games.
Comments
Except they should. NS2 was marketed like shit honestly. NS2 dlc was marketed like shit and got continuously worse, to the point where kodiak was deemed a failure because someone set expectations too high honestly, lol...
The only reason NS2 has survived this long is because it has a dedicated community. For a long time UWE have done nothing for the game. Their decisions in marketing have gone from bad to worse.
There seems like no communication was had between UWE and FLG about NS2 being on sale CHEAPER than Combat was during the halloween release LOL. That's such a "fuck you", there was a lot of hype coming from UWE about combat before-hand then the release came along and UWE seem to have ignored it, in favor of pushing DLC for NS2 instead.
There's the the debate on cost, honestly, in my opinion everyone who owned NS2 should have been given a discount off the game price. If it wasn't for all the NS2 players, FLG wouldn't have had a community to support them during development with testing and so forth. I mean the cost of combat for me was almost equal to what I paid for NS2!
So yeah UWE screwed up but I really didn't expect anything else, they're top of the class at that, so it makes me wonder why other people think they we're going to ever do more.
Edit - found thread. Bottom of that thread link. Hugh's response to me.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135624/31-october-hype/p1
I've always been a pretty vocal critic of UWE's marketing/PR strategy but to be fair UWE isn't really behind the Kickstarter prizes for the NS2WC, it was an event created by the community
Jesus fucking christ. Posts like this reek much moreso of entitlement than any of the negative reviews I've read. As somebody who's bought combat, and has actively tried to offset the hate it has been getting outside of these forums, the "leave combat alone" bandwagon is so rage-inducing that it is slowly driving me toward jumping ship onto the hate-train.
If people are allowed to have opinions they are allowed to voice them too. Combat is not exempt from bad reviews just because you wanted it to succeed. Nobody should be ashamed for not enjoying something and expressing dissatisfaction. Also, whilst there's been a lot of hate directed at UWE, I haven't seen ANY directed at FLG. Perhaps they are subject to the consequences of the UWE hate, which is regrettable. However, as they developed a product that UWE has a stake in, this is entirely fair - they signed the deal with UWE as publisher, they get what comes with it. They are not shielded from any potentially bad consequences of their business partnerships.
At the end of the day, people aren't not buying combat because some random internet commenters are saying it sucks. Blaming the negative reviews for Combat's lack of success is ridiculous.
Nobody owes FLG anything, especially as this is their first release. Nobody has to buy the game. Nobody has to enjoy it. Nobody has to recommend it or sing it's praises. Likewise, nobody has to refrain from recommending against it or actively insulting the game. All of this is fair game. The degree of which people will do any of these things is dictated by the product itself and how well it is sold.
What you should not do is whine about costumers being unhappy with the product, wether it's a false sense of entitlement or not is beside the point.
UWE published it so they are making money off of a rip off, and i personally actually feel bad for FLG because it's sad that they put work into a project that is such a failure.
They would've been better off working for UWE on ns2 engine.
UWE appear to have no shame, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that publishing ns2:Combat as a standalone was a terrible idea.
My advice to FLG, keep working on your own game and sever ties with UWE, they don't deserve it.
considering how its sold I doubt this very much, very very much.
My problem is with people who are bashing Faultline Games and down voting the game for something that is entirely UWE's fault.
UWE have a history of not finishing what they started/not following a job through to completion. This has shone through completely in their half-assed attempt at publishing.
I love and respect the work of UWE, but you have to admit their track record is terrible.
NS was a mod that was never finished, always changing and ultimately left at a point where it was quite a mess.
But they moved on and we all moved on with them for this great idea, a standalone version of NS2, this is where they would sort out everything that they had left in a messed up state in NS right?
Wrong.
NS2 was released in an unfinished state, with lots of problems in both the gameplay and the engine. But that's ok, because they will be supporting and fixing it for a long time after release right?
Wrong.
There was a period of a few months after release where some of the UWE team worked on NS2, but most of the the updates and changes came from one or two UWE staff and a large portion of the community. So they put together the CDT, while UWE headed off onto it nexts project...
Then UWE had this great idea to become a publisher. They surely would get that right, I mean, they have all this marketing knowledge now, and we all know the job of a publisher is very simple, market the game, distribute the game, and make sure it sells well.
Except, they didn't, UWE did none of the traditional publisher work, they didn't market or distribute the game.
Sure they got it on steam, but that's it.
Essentially, UWE sold FLG a publisher deal, and instead gave them a liscensing deal, we'll charge you for using our IP, because that is all UWE have given FLG.
And yet, everyone attacks FLG and Combat for the shambles, when the blame needs to be laid firmly at the feet of UWE.
UWE are not supporting the engine, UWE are not supporting combat, UWE aren't even working on NS2, and haven't been since about 6 months after release.
This is what infuriates me. If you have an issue with the combat release, with the price you have to pay, and they way the launch was handled, you have to blame the publisher.
If the game is crap, you blame the devloper. EA has taken a hit as a publisher and been bashed time and time again for it's decisions, and yet UWE seem to be untouchable, despite being a far worse publisher than EA.
It's one thing to like the idea of being a publisher, but publishing is a seriously important job, and is another in a long list of projects that UWE have failed with.
I will continue to back UWE in their future projects, and I hope one day they release a game that is complete at launch, (not talking early access, but the proper launch date).
I would also advise UWE to seriously forget about becoming a publisher, unless they learn that a publisher takes on the responsibility for everything that isn't making the game itself, something which they did not do in this case.
I mean, they released an update and DLC for NS2, as well as the earliest access release of Subnautica, on the day their first published release came out, even EA don't make screw ups that big...
I hope people don't take this as being overly negative, as I say, I respect UWE for all they have achieved, but they have to take the blame fair and square for the whole combat fiasco, it was their idea, and they didn't follow it through properly to completion, as is a common theme for their projects to date.
If you think combat is crap in it's own right, blame FLG, but if you think it's not worth the money, should have been a mod, or should have had bigger discounts for NS2 players etc, you should take those complaints to UWE, and leave them off the combat pages.
Given that, a consumer now has a choice, NS2 or Combat (ignoring both and neither for the sake of the argument). If Combat cannot compete with a simple ass update - then how the duck do you expect combat to compete with titles like CS:GO, Quake Live, CoD, UT that also all have halloween updates and sales? Are we going to blame Epic and Activision for ruining NS2:Combat? The notion is ridiculous.
P.S. Blizzards Overwatch was just announced, so if NS2:C wasn't already dead, this will be the nail in the coffin anyway. RIP.
Kind of the point of almost every business ever......
As a prominent modder of NS2, I would be lying if I didn't admit to having had a word or two with UWE about monetising mods. My criticism of UWE as a publisher is likely to end any plans for getting my mods published with them, but at the same time, from a developers perspective, and seeing what has happened with FLG, I would admit to being very wary about the prospect of taking up any such offer now anyway.
I am still going to buy all UWE games, as they always have great aspects, but my expectations of UWE products is always reasonable, they tend to deliver what I expect. However, for me, their performance as a publisher was way below their normal standard and even I'd be worried about purchasing a game in the future they are just a publisher of.
If I would hesitate to buy a UWE published game, I would also hesitate to get published by them, despite the great opportunity, they have effectively put a massive hole in the future of FLG as a development team, and I am not sure if I suffered that as a single dev, I'd have the ability or resources to move onto future projects.
For me, the biggest and most important thing is that the publishing failure of UWE, does not destroy the development dream of FLG. That would be a terrible outcome, if UWE destroyed a very promising game dev team because of the publishing failures that have taken place.
Nice business plan. (I know its not about the money, but you still want people to play your game and have it live a while and not just a couple of weeks?)
I do agree with you 100% about UWE. Pretty lackluster effort on their part.
1) Release NS2:C on another date. 2) Release NS2 b270 content patch on another date 3) Pour in a ton of money to promote NS2:C more than they already had.
We can rule out 2), because Halloween is NS1 and NS2's anniversary. It's pretty much tradition at this point that UWE celebrates that. Moreover, it would be absolutely foolish for UWE not to take advantage of Steam's Halloween sale.
We can rule out 3), because why not spend that money on promoting NS2 or Subnautica which is where UWE are putting most of their stakes.
That leaves 1). So the question remains; on which date?
Case for Halloween:
* Steam holds their annual Halloween sale, you automatically have more eyeballs than usual. - Of course this would hold true on any holiday sale. * The NS scene is celebrating their anniversary, why not release the next title in the franchise on that day? + Any publicity the NS scene gets as a whole, is publicity that NS2:Combat gets.
You could argue that maybe they should have waited for the steam christmas sale before release. But I'd maintain that we would see similar results, as UWE are likely going to issue a sale for NS2 on that as well.
The only major difference being of course, that FLG would have more time developing - but keep in mind: This Costs Money.
Case for a random date outside big steam sales:
* You don't have to compete as hard for the eyeballs - Of course you have less total eyeballs
For what it's worth, despite the current state of the game in combat, I really like it. It has promise.
The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.
I want more people to play combat, because it is actually good fun!
I keep reading this weird dismissal of valid criticism. There's a reason those reviews are popular, and to claim they're not complaints about the game is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Yes, if you choose to ignore all the parts that are wrong about a game, of course it's a great game!
Defining what context we're allowed to review a game around defeats the point of an honest review.
Both you and Sebb disagreeing with my previous comment is nothing short of ridiculous.
It's low because people don't want to play it.
Edit: I don't just mean the wider audience, the folks who bought it are not playing it.
http://steamcharts.com/app/310110
I've seen NS2:combat featured on steam, it was posted on reddit, it was posted on this site, and lots of youtubers reviewed it, including big names like Total Biscuit, there was a twitch 96 hour stream, there are articles/blogs..
I'm reading all these complaints and things, people saying they're valid reasons... but being butthurt is not a valid enough reason in my opinion.
=((
I think the actual game has problems, but I think they can make it good. I can't believe a community that is so forgiving to UWE and their "Fall 2009's" is so hostile to a new young development team being given a break by UWE.
I would have thought FLG deserved the same level of respect afforded to Charlie, this was his idea, his dream, but the community has been so hostile towards them for things that are not their fault.
As for would should UWE have done. That is simple, advertise and promote. That is what a publisher does. A publisher works the same in the games industry as it does in the book industry as it does in any industry. Someone creates something and the publisher is responsible for getting it sold.
If UWE say they were not publishing, they were just charging for their IP and assets, then fair enough, but they didn't even make a forum post/steam news update about the release of Combat. How many people who own NS2 even now NS2 combat is available as a standalone?
Not many read the forums, and as there has been no press coverage of note, you can bet a fair few of them could have at least been notified through a very simple news post.
I have to say that this is entirely my opinion, I assume there was a lot of support being provided in private that we are completely unaware of, but publicly it seems very much like UWE said, hey, we've had this idea, and set it in motion.
I understand UWE is a fairly unstructured company like valve, but even so, i just would like to have seen more public support from UWE.
I never purchased this game, and I wouldn't have. I was given a copy. I do enjoy NS2 Combat, I enjoyed it as a mod. It was great to get in and warm up a bit, or as a break from real NS2. Even if the game was free and obtainable at the price point I lucked out on I would still review it in the same way. The price is simply one small factor in a number of issues.
You act as if something found to be entertaining can't be criticised. I don't see where 'being butthurt' comes into play at all, that's just an ad hominem attack on the person rather than on the points of discussion.
Everyone is going to have a different opinion about what can be considered a complete product, so there is no use arguing that point. But for many games, it all ends at release. The game is put out to the public, and with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 patches after to fix a few glaring issues, or perhaps a handful of paid DLC, the developers shift gears and begin work on their next project.
However, in our case, we did continue development of NS2, supporting, fixing, adding new features and content. And then I read stuff like this: Wow. We spent over a year continuing to put time and resources into NS2 development, most of that time with the entire team working on it. NS2 released October of 2012. Here's a blogpost talking about a release on our year anniversary http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/natural-selection-2-one-year-anniversary/
While community members were contributing some fixes at that point, most of UWE had still been working their butts off to continue to make NS2 better.
We then released Eclipse 11 months ago. By the end of development of that map it involved all of our internal mappers and artists. A vast entire new art set was created for that map, which is not cheap. Even after that there were patches that still had UWE members like Andi and Lukas spending a good chunk of time contributing. The official CDT rollout wasn't until, what 8 months ago?
So, yeah, the amount of time and money we as a company invested in support of NS2 after release was pretty insane, and honestly probably not the most financially viable strategy for our company. But deep down at our core we believed in the game and the community and wanted to do all we could to improve NS2 and keep it alive, up until we just couldn't justify it anymore and would risk going out of business.
We were very up front with FLG about what role we were going to play in Combat's release. As a company we couldn't afford to put a lot of money and time into any development or large amount of promotion for Combat. We knew that going in, they knew it. But we all believed that Combat deserved a chance to be released from the shackles of being a mod for NS2, constantly breaking with each NS2 update, and the FLG could not justify spending any more time on something they couldn't make any money from.
We believe in FLG as a company, and want to see them succeed. We can argue pricepoints for Combat, or whether it should have been released for free to the close to a million people who technically own NS2 (just think of all the people who got NS2 for a $1 as part of a humble bundle). But at the end of the day, if FLG was going to be able to get their company off the ground, they were going to need money, and a reasonable amount of it. When you drop the price too low, the developers are making virtually no money once Steam takes their cut.
FLGs and UWE wanted to see Combat be able to stand on its own, without all the trappings of NS2. We didn't want to be overly hands on, with either development or PR, because FLG needed to establish themselves as their own entity. That said, there was still support from UWE behind the scenes.
At the end of the day, I personally think it is a very sad thing to see so many people from the NS2 community actively working to tear down all the FLG are trying to build with their blood and sweat. Whatever people's feelings about UWE, this was an honest attempt to get a fledgling company up on their feet, and frankly, they deserve better.
Rock-Paper-Shotgun article FOUND ON STEAM NEWS
When I ask you what you would do different exactly - I expect more depth and substance than that. Where should they have advertised and promoted other than where they already did.
This is just speculations. I would like to see some evidence supporting this claim.