If you really want to see how players are bad at playing MvM, just play until the server change mode (sometimes it load a .ns2 map and we're back to NS2 MvA game).
Ah, good old Steam workshop servers, lmao
UWE never did provide us with a backup solution for custom content.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
AvA would be quite easy to do, would require minimum 5 TP maps, the only really big issue would infestation mechanics, and all the creatures in melee combat...
@Soul_Rider It's actually a helluva lot more complicated than you think. It's rather astounding how much code you have to touch all over the place to make non-MvA work. Take a look at how many files are in MvM (466 on my last count) and what's changed if you want proof.
AvA would actually be quite dull when you really think about it. Would be funny at first, but then get real stupid, real fast. And not the good kind of stupid either.
Anyways, this is the MvM thread...
Has anyone been able to find some kind of reproduction step for the T-pose player bug?
First build of the MVM map is out on the workshop. Leave feedback on the workshop page. If its fun to play and I see value in making a proper one then I will later on. Right now I just wanted to find out what works and what doesn't.
Thank you to Flaterectomy for helping getting this thing made.
Testing it now on one of the ModBox servers: 85.236.100.186:28315
Feel free to join
First build of the MVM map is out on the workshop. Leave feedback on the workshop page. If its fun to play and I see value in making a proper one then I will later on. Right now I just wanted to find out what works and what doesn't.
Thank you to Flaterectomy for helping getting this thing made.
Testing it now on one of the ModBox servers: 85.236.100.186:28315
Feel free to join
Had a few matches on your map today, it was epic.
Reminded me of Quake 4.
It's great that the map is fully textured, i'll be hosting it on my public MvM server from now on.
The only issue we encountered was the readyroom was a bit too small (skip to the end of the video), lmao :P
The target player base was 20 people!... you nutters! But that was awesome video and I watched it all, got a lot of feedback. Thank you @DarkflameQ . I'll continue to improve it over the coming weeks.
While making the map I was doing a lot of thinking about the mod and the issues that currently hamper MVM... I tried to address a few with level design and to some extent I think i did. I've put together a list of the ideas I built the map on:
*A more open map with less choke points reduces the effectiveness of grenade spam and discourages turtleing (w-3 to w-2 is still an issue and will be reworked at some point).
*Map should be Smaller and Less complexity than vanilla NS2 maps. The idea is to focus on creating a few key areas ( C1-C2) Where most the fighting happens. creating intense shootouts and once the areas are 'secured' The other team will slowly loose to the dominant team. Currently C1 is a bit hard to secure that's more to do with cover placement than needing a complete redesign. No need for more than 3 or 4 tech points.
*conventional FPS Room design, like a TF2/cs map... with a little room to build stuff on. Not having to consider alien lifeforms made it a nice change to vanilla NS2 mapping, I'd recommend it to anyone who fancy's a change.
After doing this experiment I would say that MVM really needs purpose built custom maps to really come into its own. I'll try encourage some other people to have a go at making one and maybe I'll do another myself. It's a really interesting and exciting mod to map for and fray certainly isn't the last word in MVM mapping... but its a decent reference point.
Now After spending a significant time with MVM and thinking about its design I have a few suggestions to fix some of the issues you see in the games. Particularly the length of them which are almost always over the magic 30 minute mark:
*Increase the amount of upgrades available. Even more than in vanilla NS2 MVM is an arms race. every game I've played both teams end up with full tech researched. Add weapons, and armor upgrades to level 6, and try other other upgrades like increased movement speed or grenade reliance.. there's a lot you could do with this, but ultimately the games become stale when there is nothing else to research and no reason to hold rt's other than P res. With symmetrical teams you can be a lot less concerned about balance with this stuff. If the upgrades aren't super OP you only have to worry about pricing them correctly.
*Increase the value of tech points through the tech they enable and the supplies they offer.
*attach a upgrade choice to each tech point held, much like the 'shift shade or Craig choice is attached to a hive just with small perks across the board and no significant tech restrictions. I think this would create more varied games and help separate the strengths/play style of the teams from the early game.
*Team coloured Traces and Glowing grenades!
There's nothing like a bit a backseat developing to start the day!
Just thought i'd share my thoughts on MVM. It's a great mod and has a lot of potential. Really looking forward to seeing where it goes!
I'll be willing to help you with any 3d models you need so PM me if you have any requests.
Also If you need any 2d graphics or sound PM @Flaterectomy he's your man for that!
@Soul_Rider It's actually a helluva lot more complicated than you think. It's rather astounding how much code you have to touch all over the place to make non-MvA work.
Not really, I mean, I already made Proving Grounds which is MvM, so I know what it requires
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Some good ideas there @Howser regarding the tech tree and tech points, and having lots of upgrades. I think McGlaspie was looking at fleshing out the RTS aspect more so I'm sure he'd agree.
Also, the map runs MvM a whole lot better and a 3 TP map with tech changes might help to snowball the game a bit more so you can actually finish at a reasonable time.
ps. plz make me some exo weapon models thnx Howser ^^
@Scatter already requested the exo source files hopefully i'll receive them with a few days and can look at making you a welder and flame thrower model. Both things that should totally be in vanilla ns2
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
Watched @DarkflameQ's vid. Well done @Howser! Looks like a fantastic start, and thanks for taking the time to make it. Seeing the map really brought an image to miind of Future-City streets. Something akin to the city-scape you can see in Marine Start on Eclipse, or Deus Ex perhaps. I'm really looking forward to see where this goes.
@Howser That's some damn good feedback sir! Thanks! It's a lot, and more than I have time to reply to at the moment. However, to put it simply, I've been thinking along the same lines. Definetly needs a lot more tech variation. That would help quel the horrid symmetry quite a bit. I've got an idea on how to make more tech work with the existing comm UI too. Toggle and Stateful buttons; in other words, I'd be able to have all armor upgrades rolled into a single button, same for anything else really. I need to hammer out the proto-type but it should be doable.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
It might be worth considering one of the older NS2 builds for an idea how to do it easily, since I remember there being multiple techs on 1 button back then for alien ability research on the hive.
The target player base was 20 people!... you nutters! But that was awesome video and I watched it all, got a lot of feedback. Thank you @DarkflameQ . I'll continue to improve it over the coming weeks.
lmao, apart from the readyroom, the map seems way too big for only 20 players, it fits 32-40 perfectly.
After doing this experiment I would say that MVM really needs purpose built custom maps to really come into its own. I'll try encourage some other people to have a go at making one and maybe I'll do another myself. It's a really interesting and exciting mod to map for and fray certainly isn't the last word in MVM mapping... but its a decent reference point.
Maps should be easier to make for MvM since there is no need for high ceilings for aliens to hide or vents for aliens to move around the map in.
@Soul_Rider It's actually a helluva lot more complicated than you think. It's rather astounding how much code you have to touch all over the place to make non-MvA work.
Not really, I mean, I already made Proving Grounds which is MvM, so I know what it requires
I'm still waiting for Proving Grounds, are you still working hard on your Gorge mods at the moment? :P
lmao, apart from the readyroom, the map seems way too big for only 20 players, it fits 32-40 perfectly.
There ya go, making a small 3 TP map, and still get told your map is too big for regular teams. :P We played it starting with 4 players and it grew to around 20, and that number worked quite fine. If it fits more players well, then that's a happy accident.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
Not wishing to derail McGlaspie's thread too much, but GorgeCraft final will be released on 28th April. After a small break, I will be going back to Proving Grounds.
Back on-topic, I did mention a little while ago that MvM needs custom maps, as NS2 maps don't really work, but @McGlaspie said he wasn't able to make any. I am really glad to see the community is taking up the map making challenge and @Howser has certainly hit on a lot of the issues. One of the things that does need to be addressed in the cramped spaces. More open rooms would work a lot better in my mind than the current tight and twisty maps of NS2. I believe you mentioned tf2 maps, I'd like to see a de_dust map for MvM, I think it would be pretty amusing
lmao, apart from the readyroom, the map seems way too big for only 20 players, it fits 32-40 perfectly.
There ya go, making a small 3 TP map, and still get told your map is too big for regular teams. :P We played it starting with 4 players and it grew to around 20, and that number worked quite fine. If it fits more players well, then that's a happy accident.
I wasn't being critical, just surprised it was designed for only 20 people, it's an awesome map, keep up the good work!
Not wishing to derail McGlaspie's thread too much, but GorgeCraft final will be released on 28th April. After a small break, I will be going back to Proving Grounds.
Back on-topic, I did mention a little while ago that MvM needs custom maps, as NS2 maps don't really work, but @McGlaspie said he wasn't able to make any. I am really glad to see the community is taking up the map making challenge and @Howser has certainly hit on a lot of the issues. One of the things that does need to be addressed in the cramped spaces. More open rooms would work a lot better in my mind than the current tight and twisty maps of NS2. I believe you mentioned tf2 maps, I'd like to see a de_dust map for MvM, I think it would be pretty amusing
What criteria are you using to ascertain if a map is compatible with MvM?
I think a lot of the custom maps work beautifully with the mod.
Any idea when you can further fix the voting system so voting options can be disabled?
The voting options in ServerConfig.json appear to be completely ignored / over ridden at the moment so i cannot disable the annoying voting force even teams vote on my server.
Also the flamethrower is a tad over powered at the moment (one extreme to the other), lol
McGlaspiewww.team156.comJoin Date: 2010-07-26Member: 73044Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester
edited April 2014
Prepare for Wall-o-Text post....
Ok, so here's a "brain dump" of the kinds of things I've been considering for New Tech, or at least variations on existing tech. None of these ideas are the definite choice or even planned changes. These are basically just what I've been considering. To keep things a bit more focused, please only respond to one of them (quoting is easy); otherwise, this will become a disconjointed mess of a discussion. Again, none of these are anything that I'm actually planning on implementing, but rather these are items I've just be considering of spending the time to add them.
Disclaimer: None of the actual values (time, Tres, damage, etc) used in these lists should be considered immutable.
Taking a cue from @Howser, and some things I was already considering. Add three new Tech-Items to Command Stations that would act like conditional branches in TechTrees. Each of these items could only be researched once, and require a CS to be dedicated to it. Basically, like Hive specialization.
Mechanized Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Robotics Factory to research but not maintain
Lower production cost of all mechanized units (ARCs, MACs, Sentries) by 20%. (ARC becomes 12-Tres, MAC 4-Tres, Sentry 4-Tres).
Exo gain 5% movement speed increase.
Unlock ARC-Type Research item: Lance-ARC (direct Line-of-Fire version of ARC that can attack anything with a sustained "beam-like" weapon), which would have increased armor. This ARC-Variant would cost more than regular ones, but do significantly more damage to a single target. Combined with NanoShield, it could effectively engage an Exo.
Infantry Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Armory to research but not maintain
Lowers Pres-cost of Equipment based items (Jetpack, Welder, and Grenades) by 20%. [ JP - 12 Pres, Welder 4 Pres, Grenades 4 Pres ] Note: this would require increasing Hand Grenade Pres cost to 5, baseline
Marines gain 5% movement speed increase [Note: this would only come with other changes to Marine movement, which are already planned changes]
Decrease Tres cost and cooldown time of NanoShield by 20%. ( would be 4 Tres, normally 6 Tres and Cooldown to 8s vs 10s )
Unlocks Rapid-Deployment research for Infantry Portals (Commander triggered, Tres costing ability to temporarily increase the rate an IP spawns Marines, shared cooldown for all IPs)
Logistics Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Observatory to research but not maintain
Lower production cost for Infantry Portal, Phase Gate, and Observatories by 20%. ( IP - 12, PG - 12, Obs - 8 )
Increases Supply gained from capturing Resource Nodes by 20% ( gives an extra 2 Team Supply points per captured res-node), does not affect TechPoints.
Lowers cost of Distress Beacon by 20% ( 8 Tres )
Enables Sentries to be Unlocked, allowing for Marines to pick them up and move them. The Commander would have to "activate" the Unlock ability on a sentry for a Marine to be able to pick it up and move it. Sentries would still require a Sentry Battery in order to be Active.
Increases Team Supply cap to 300 ( this change would require lowing TS cap to 150-200 or so )
Of course, if the Upgraded CS was destroyed, the associated changes would be lost (just like ArmsLab). Balance issues aside, the tricky thing with this is visually showing an Upgraded CS, on the minimap and in-world model. Also, it would be my intention that any given team can ONLY ever have Two of these CS Upgrades in total, and not all of them. These upgrades could also ONLY be done one-per CS, and a CS could not be down-graded.
Here are some things that I've been mulling over that wouldn't necessarily be tied directly to the CS Upgrades. In a few cases, I've listed item mentioned in the CS Upgrades in order to flesh them out and explain them better.
Dual-Exo Research as binary choice:
Essentially, force a team to chose either Dual-Rail or Dual-Minigun. In order to make both options viable, unlink the dual-guns from each other. Current, Railguns prevent left or right from charging or firing when the other is charging. Miniguns increase the rate they both overheat at when one (Left or Right) or the other is used. So, to make this binary choice viable from a Pres-angle, make each gun independent of the other. Ex: Left railgun could fire at normal rate while RIght railgun is charging.
Exo - Shield-Variant:
Single-Weapon Exo with a Mini-gun. Instead of having a Claw, it has a NanoShield emitter. This self-shield ability would have a charge, and the shield would only be active while a charge remains. There would be a cooldown period while it recharges. The self-shield would act like a Exo sized Riot shield, covering everything forward facing except the Minigun. The intended role for this Exo-Variant is to provide a means to push-though enemy lines. Only one shield could be active at a time, so Commander's couldn't "double up" and NanoShield an Exo with an active self-shield. This would have to be researched via the Protolab by Commanders, but not require any additional Pres for player's buying a Single weapon Exo.
Four Level Upgrades:
Break the Armor and Weapon Upgrades into four separate level, versus the current 3. Ensure the final result is the same as it currently is..
ArmorL1 - 4: Tres 15,25,35,45. ( AR1 +15, AR2 +30, AR3 +45, AR4 +60 )
Exo ArmorL1 - 4: ( 200 per level, resulting in 1000 armor (2000 effective HP) fully upgraded )
WeaponL1 - 4: Tres 15,25,35,45. ( WP1 +7.5%, WP2 +15%, WP3 +22.5%, WP4 +30% ) Note: The above net-result is identical final upgrade levels as it is today, but take longer and cost more Tres.
Rapid Deployment: - Requires Infantry Focus upgrade
All Infantry Portals would gain a new Commander activation ability while active significantly reduces the delay between each Marine spawn in the current queue. Normally, it takes a minimum of 7 seconds for a Marine re-spawn sequence to complete. This would reduce it by 50%, meaning a 3.5 second delay. It would last for 20 seconds. This would mean twice the number of Marines can be respawned in the same amount of time. All IPs in the game would share a cool-down, so only one IP at a time could activate this ability. The research item would be researched from any IP. So it would be up to a Commander to decide where their team needed the most reinforcement.
MAC EMP:
Pulse grenades and EMP damage in general is something under used in MvM. It's an effective tool for combating other AI-Units and Exos. So, to give the commander this ability, MAC-EMP (as it was in Vanilla) would be added back in. Combined with the MAC-Speed upgrade, and this becomes an effective tool for Commanders to help disrupt enemy teams and support their own. This would be a shared cooldown among all MACs, so it can't be spammed.
MAC AI Upgrades:
Research that enabled better behavior for MACs in general. This would unlock several changes for a MAC:
Patrol Ability - Allow MAC to patrol from point to point building and repairing as it moves along its route.
Stateful Behavior - Ability for Comms to set a MAC as Evassive or Aggressive. In Evassive mode, if a MAC takes damage, it tries to flee from the damage. In Aggressive mode, it doesn't care if it takes damage. It would continue doing what it's doing.
MAC Speed Increase:
This was an old (pre b180) upgrade for MACs that increased their movement speed by 50%. Combined with the previously two mentioned items, this makes MACs a lot more cost-effective.
ARC Splash Damage Upgrade:
This is actually something that's been in in NS2 but never used. Simply put, it would increase the Splash damage (indirect) damage of ARC attacks. I'm mixed on if this should be tied to Weapon-Level upgrades or be a flat increase.
ARC Speed Upgrade:
Simple upgrade that increases the ARC moves at. This wouldn't impact the speed at which it deploys / undeploys.
Electronic Warfare:
I'm have mixed thoughts about this one. While on paper, I really like the idea, in-game I'm not convinced it would be all that beneficial. Essentially, allow for ECM/ECCM type behaviors for all Sensors (Pings, Scans, and Obs detection). This would mean an Observatory could be upgraded to act as a Jamming-Field. Within this jamming radius, enemy units lose their minimap and their ability to call for Drop-Packs (Meds, Ammo, etc). In addition to this, Scans can be upgraded to "punch-through" a jamming field. This could even be taken as far as preventing Voice-Chat while within a jamming field. The main idea behind this is being able to deny enemy team's from getting Easy-Recon. They'll have to hunt for your bases. Additionally, Commander's would gain a "Active Jamming" ability that would work like Scans do, but jam enemy sensors instead of detecting them.
Lance-ARC Unlock - Requires ARC Robotics Factory and CS Mechanized Focus
A direct Line-of-Fire ARC-variant that has increased armor over the default ARC. A commander would give it an attack order on an item, or if it is deployed and left Unordered it will attack Units and Structures on its own. It's weapon is a "plasma beam" (yay techno-babble!) that would have a sustained fire time of approximately 3-5 seconds. Each second this beam is striking a target, it would do 500 damage. Just as the default ARC does, it would require a "spin-up" time before it actually fires its weapon. It may be possible for this to have a sweeping fire aspect. In other words, if an attack order is given, the beam fires, and then the target is changed (commander controlled order), then the beam would remain active and "sweep" from it's old target to its new one. ANY enemy unit or structure that gets hit by this beam would take damage. This means it would be possible for a Marine or Exo to jump infront of the beam in order to block it (as long as they can survive). Combined with the aspects of a Shield-Variant Exo, things get interesting.
That's it for now, but there is quite a bit more I've been thinking about. All of the fore-mentioned items would come at a later time. Only after I've smashed the bugs in the current builds.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
I really like the changes. I would consider implementing them all personally. I think you should reconsider some of the independent upgrades.
I would use some of the Arc and Mac abilities under then Mechanised system, the Exo stuff under Infantry (although I think the changes that are being made to Exo mod could work really well with MvM).
I would put the ECM stuff under logistics.
Overall, with the current gameplay, the obs doesn't feel right. It makes sense to have motion tracking against high speed aliens, but when you have a forward base outside an enemy base, you have a permanent wall-hack for both teams. With slow moving players, it is a bit overkill. I think the obs role needs to be reconsidered within the mod.
Sorry for not quoting, but I did't respond directly to any question..
sounds like some good ideas to me and I really like the exo riot shield idea for one! definitely need that.
I don't agree with the division of the current 30% buff over 4 weapons levels. I'd actually say leave them as they are and add another one or two levels on top of that. So level 4 weapons would cost 50 tres and buff fire power by 40%, 5 would cost 60 and buff by 50% etc. MVM needs to be an arms race so the 'winning' teams control and dominance snowballs. And there's nothing worse than upgrades that make little impact to the game.
@soulrider I think the ob's functionality is fine. certainly from the RTS perspective the commanders map awareness and ability to support bases with functional structures is very important.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2014
@Howser - I agree, but if you check out during this video, you see late game that you can tell where the opposing players are two rooms away at all times in battle. It is a bit much.
EDIT -- --
Forgot to post the video. Please ignore troop moaning about the game being crap, he whines about everything, but occasionally does have very good ideas and suggestions
sounds like some good ideas to me and I really like the exo riot shield idea for one! definitely need that.
I don't agree with the division of the current 30% buff over 4 weapons levels. I'd actually say leave them as they are and add another one or two levels on top of that. So level 4 weapons would cost 50 tres and buff fire power by 40%, 5 would cost 60 and buff by 50% etc. MVM needs to be an arms race so the 'winning' teams control and dominance snowballs. And there's nothing worse than upgrades that make little impact to the game....
@Howser, while on the surface, it seems like you're spot on with that. However, as contradictory as it seems, increasing upgrade levels actually increases the length of the game.
This is a bit long, but bear with me. Using the current damage model, take a look at the examples below:
//Important Note: There is the Amor Absorbtion Rate factor in NS2's damage model, but it only in a few edge-cases. For MvM, it's a non-issue
//I'm using Rifle as an example because it's by far the most commonly used weapon over the course of a round
//Using Default Upgrade Levels: +20 AR & +10% Wep
//-----------------------------------------------------------------------
//Rifle fires 5 rounds a second and does Normal damage
Rifle at Level(0) -> 60 Normal damage a second ( 12 dmg per bullet )
Rifle at Level(3) -> 78 Normal damage a second ( 15.6 dmg per bullet )
//Marine HP/AR stats ( 1AR point == 2HP )
Marine at Level(0) AR -> 100 HP & 30 AR = 160 HP total
Marine at Level(3) AR -> 100 HP & 90 AR = 280 HP total
Marine vs Rifle both at Level(0) -> 2.6 seconds to kill Marine
Marine vs Rifle both at Level(3) -> 3.5 seconds to kill Marine
//Note: the above assumes the attacker has PERFECT AIM (ha! Yeah right...).
//In normal scenarios, the TtK (Time-to-Kill) is actually longer
//Now let's extrapolate this out to SIX levels of upgrades, continuing the same increases (+20 AR & +10% Wep) per level
//Note: this assumes the starting AR/HP & Rifle damage values are the same
//Starting Values: Marine 100HP & 30AR | Rifle 12 damage per bullet at 5 rounds a second (60 dmg per second)
Rifle at Level(6) -> 96 Normal damage a second ( 19.2 dmg per bullet )
Marine at Level(6) -> 100 HP & 150 AR = 400 HP total
//TtK at Level 6
Marine VS Rifle both at Level(6) -> 4.1 seconds to kill Marine
//Just for fun, let's say one team didn't go after upgrades, but went for Equipment unlocks instead
Marine at Level(0) VS Rifle at Level(6) -> 1.6 seconds to kill Marine
//That would suck to be on the receiving end. Add network latency into the equation
//and the attcked player would likely not even be able to react before they were dead.
//Not fun. Only frustrating.
//Let's reverse it, and say Armor was the priority of a team, and they hit Lvl6 before enemy started weapon upgrades.
Marine at Level(6) VS Rifle at Level(0) -> 6.7 seconds to kill Marine
Marine at Level(6) VS Rifle at Level(2) -> 5.5 seconds to kill Marine
Marine at Level(6) VS Rifle at Level(4) -> 4.7 seconds to kill Marine
Marine at Level(6) VS Rifle both at Level(6) -> 4.1 seconds to kill Marine
So...just flat out increasing the number of upgrade levels isn't the answer. You have a good point about the Arms(Tech)-Race. However, the current tech-up race appearing to be the definitive factor in winning games is almost entirely due to the utter lack of Tech-Variation. There is no means for either team to separate itself from the other. The biggest reason MvM has the stalemate(like) issues is because of the identical tech-output of each team. This is the issue I want to address with the Tech-Focus Upgrades. Not only do I want to create new tactical options/variation, but mainly I want to at least diminish the damned symmetry some. I will also freely admit, what I've posted so far, isn't enough to create the amount of variance needed to truly solve the problem. But it is a start, more can always be added/changed later.
It also worth mentioning, that increasing the Damage Output of weapons, then brings up the need to re-examine all of the Structure/Buildings HP/AR values. Otherwise, you would be killing a Sentry in 1-2 seconds, or taking out an IP in 2-4 seconds. In that type of speed, the defending team doesn't have a chance of reacting. Then we're right back into the "Not fun / Boring / Frustrating / *Insert Colorful-Metaphor here* " territory.
P.S. I don't know if anyone has been checking but I've made significant progress on the next update this week. I'm focusing on finding the damned cause of the T-pose bug right now, so I doubt the update will come this week (maybe...MAYBE Sunday).
@DarkflameQ You'll be glad to hear the voting-settings bug is fixed in 3.3 Also, with keeping your server at 40 player count, that's actually serving as an amplifying effect on the game's current stalemate issue. It will never scale that high, nor do I have any intentions of doing so. Something else worth noting, having the player count that high basically acts like a "Player-Magnet", and essentially prevents players from populating other servers (like Tick's server. I've never seen anyone on it). Right now, I'd recommend changing the player count down to 24-30. But hey, it is of course your server, and I'm just making a recommendation.
@DarkflameQ You'll be glad to hear the voting-settings bug is fixed in 3.3 Also, with keeping your server at 40 player count, that's actually serving as an amplifying effect on the game's current stalemate issue. It will never scale that high, nor do I have any intentions of doing so. Something else worth noting, having the player count that high basically acts like a "Player-Magnet", and essentially prevents players from populating other servers (like Tick's server. I've never seen anyone on it). Right now, I'd recommend changing the player count down to 24-30. But hey, it is of course your server, and I'm just making a recommendation.
Good to hear about the voting fix, cheers.
People are getting kicked simply for being good players which i always hate to see, i actually preferred the last build when the power was invulnerable, it wasn't ideal but stopped people from destroying their own power nodes by mistake / griefing etc whilst also not requiring a server to have the kick function enabled to be misused.
I am aware you are not in favour of big servers and don't expect you to code the mod around them, i will facilitate via an extra 'big game mod' accordingly (if you don't mind).
I tested the mod for the first time today and reduced game play to 30 minute games on average with no noticeable introduction of bugs / errors or issues, i hope you don't mind.
It wasn't too difficult, a changed setting here and there to reduce grenade spam and speed up commander / exo offense.
If only it was as easy to reduce the amount of stupid commanders.
I'm still waiting for Shine Pre-Game Plus to be updated to work with MvM but there's been no confirmation from the mod author that he has any plans to do so which is a shame.
Yes, it is really that dark on my machine, and no, often I can't see players in the dark, because the white and red highlights blend in with the lights around the maps. I know I was a big fan of the lighting idea before release, but with no lights on, I might as well shut my eyes and run around with my finger held on the trigger....
Also, that beeping noise that keeps overriding the sound is my mouse dc'ing/ As you can see, it mainly only does it while I'm in a battle.
4.5hrs of Streamed MvM. Yes it is on a 40 player server, but hey. Oh, and I often F4 to change teams rather than waiting for auto-balance spawns.
So much hate for big servers and with MvM, they play absolutely fine with the big maps.
Server will be down until the release of v3.3, really looking forward to the changes and i think 3.2 has been thoroughly tested now, nothing else to get out of it.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2014
LOL, Way to completely mis-understand my post.... My 'Yes it is on a 40 player server' comment was directed towards the fact it is not supposed to scale to that level. I love playing high player count games. It means my lack of skill can be hidden away amongst the masses
What, why take the server down? This mod is released, and now you take away the opportunity for playing it. I am so confused....
I am glad UWe didn't take their servers down between releases while NS2 was in Beta. Really, Your last comment makes no sense whatsoever :-?
Comments
UWE never did provide us with a backup solution for custom content.
This is nothing new :P
Now waiting for someone to create AvA and i can die happy.
@Soul_Rider It's actually a helluva lot more complicated than you think. It's rather astounding how much code you have to touch all over the place to make non-MvA work. Take a look at how many files are in MvM (466 on my last count) and what's changed if you want proof.
AvA would actually be quite dull when you really think about it. Would be funny at first, but then get real stupid, real fast. And not the good kind of stupid either.
Anyways, this is the MvM thread...
Has anyone been able to find some kind of reproduction step for the T-pose player bug?
Thank you to Flaterectomy for helping getting this thing made.
Testing it now on one of the ModBox servers: 85.236.100.186:28315
Feel free to join
Reminded me of Quake 4.
It's great that the map is fully textured, i'll be hosting it on my public MvM server from now on.
The only issue we encountered was the readyroom was a bit too small (skip to the end of the video), lmao :P
While making the map I was doing a lot of thinking about the mod and the issues that currently hamper MVM... I tried to address a few with level design and to some extent I think i did. I've put together a list of the ideas I built the map on:
*A more open map with less choke points reduces the effectiveness of grenade spam and discourages turtleing (w-3 to w-2 is still an issue and will be reworked at some point).
*Map should be Smaller and Less complexity than vanilla NS2 maps. The idea is to focus on creating a few key areas ( C1-C2) Where most the fighting happens. creating intense shootouts and once the areas are 'secured' The other team will slowly loose to the dominant team. Currently C1 is a bit hard to secure that's more to do with cover placement than needing a complete redesign. No need for more than 3 or 4 tech points.
*conventional FPS Room design, like a TF2/cs map... with a little room to build stuff on. Not having to consider alien lifeforms made it a nice change to vanilla NS2 mapping, I'd recommend it to anyone who fancy's a change.
After doing this experiment I would say that MVM really needs purpose built custom maps to really come into its own. I'll try encourage some other people to have a go at making one and maybe I'll do another myself. It's a really interesting and exciting mod to map for and fray certainly isn't the last word in MVM mapping... but its a decent reference point.
Now After spending a significant time with MVM and thinking about its design I have a few suggestions to fix some of the issues you see in the games. Particularly the length of them which are almost always over the magic 30 minute mark:
*Increase the amount of upgrades available. Even more than in vanilla NS2 MVM is an arms race. every game I've played both teams end up with full tech researched. Add weapons, and armor upgrades to level 6, and try other other upgrades like increased movement speed or grenade reliance.. there's a lot you could do with this, but ultimately the games become stale when there is nothing else to research and no reason to hold rt's other than P res. With symmetrical teams you can be a lot less concerned about balance with this stuff. If the upgrades aren't super OP you only have to worry about pricing them correctly.
*Increase the value of tech points through the tech they enable and the supplies they offer.
*attach a upgrade choice to each tech point held, much like the 'shift shade or Craig choice is attached to a hive just with small perks across the board and no significant tech restrictions. I think this would create more varied games and help separate the strengths/play style of the teams from the early game.
*Team coloured Traces and Glowing grenades!
There's nothing like a bit a backseat developing to start the day!
Just thought i'd share my thoughts on MVM. It's a great mod and has a lot of potential. Really looking forward to seeing where it goes!
Also If you need any 2d graphics or sound PM @Flaterectomy he's your man for that!
Not really, I mean, I already made Proving Grounds which is MvM, so I know what it requires
Also, the map runs MvM a whole lot better and a 3 TP map with tech changes might help to snowball the game a bit more so you can actually finish at a reasonable time.
ps. plz make me some exo weapon models thnx Howser ^^
@Howser That's some damn good feedback sir! Thanks! It's a lot, and more than I have time to reply to at the moment. However, to put it simply, I've been thinking along the same lines. Definetly needs a lot more tech variation. That would help quel the horrid symmetry quite a bit. I've got an idea on how to make more tech work with the existing comm UI too. Toggle and Stateful buttons; in other words, I'd be able to have all armor upgrades rolled into a single button, same for anything else really. I need to hammer out the proto-type but it should be doable.
Maps should be easier to make for MvM since there is no need for high ceilings for aliens to hide or vents for aliens to move around the map in.
I'm still waiting for Proving Grounds, are you still working hard on your Gorge mods at the moment? :P
Back on-topic, I did mention a little while ago that MvM needs custom maps, as NS2 maps don't really work, but @McGlaspie said he wasn't able to make any. I am really glad to see the community is taking up the map making challenge and @Howser has certainly hit on a lot of the issues. One of the things that does need to be addressed in the cramped spaces. More open rooms would work a lot better in my mind than the current tight and twisty maps of NS2. I believe you mentioned tf2 maps, I'd like to see a de_dust map for MvM, I think it would be pretty amusing
Awesome!
What criteria are you using to ascertain if a map is compatible with MvM?
I think a lot of the custom maps work beautifully with the mod.
@McGlaspie
Any idea when you can further fix the voting system so voting options can be disabled?
The voting options in ServerConfig.json appear to be completely ignored / over ridden at the moment so i cannot disable the annoying voting force even teams vote on my server.
Also the flamethrower is a tad over powered at the moment (one extreme to the other), lol
Ok, so here's a "brain dump" of the kinds of things I've been considering for New Tech, or at least variations on existing tech. None of these ideas are the definite choice or even planned changes. These are basically just what I've been considering. To keep things a bit more focused, please only respond to one of them (quoting is easy); otherwise, this will become a disconjointed mess of a discussion. Again, none of these are anything that I'm actually planning on implementing, but rather these are items I've just be considering of spending the time to add them.
Disclaimer: None of the actual values (time, Tres, damage, etc) used in these lists should be considered immutable.
Taking a cue from @Howser, and some things I was already considering. Add three new Tech-Items to Command Stations that would act like conditional branches in TechTrees. Each of these items could only be researched once, and require a CS to be dedicated to it. Basically, like Hive specialization.
- Mechanized Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Robotics Factory to research but not maintain
- Infantry Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Armory to research but not maintain
- Logistics Focus - 25 Tres - Requires Observatory to research but not maintain
Of course, if the Upgraded CS was destroyed, the associated changes would be lost (just like ArmsLab). Balance issues aside, the tricky thing with this is visually showing an Upgraded CS, on the minimap and in-world model. Also, it would be my intention that any given team can ONLY ever have Two of these CS Upgrades in total, and not all of them. These upgrades could also ONLY be done one-per CS, and a CS could not be down-graded.Lower production cost of all mechanized units (ARCs, MACs, Sentries) by 20%. (ARC becomes 12-Tres, MAC 4-Tres, Sentry 4-Tres).
Exo gain 5% movement speed increase.
Unlock ARC-Type Research item: Lance-ARC (direct Line-of-Fire version of ARC that can attack anything with a sustained "beam-like" weapon), which would have increased armor. This ARC-Variant would cost more than regular ones, but do significantly more damage to a single target. Combined with NanoShield, it could effectively engage an Exo.
Lowers Pres-cost of Equipment based items (Jetpack, Welder, and Grenades) by 20%. [ JP - 12 Pres, Welder 4 Pres, Grenades 4 Pres ]
Note: this would require increasing Hand Grenade Pres cost to 5, baseline
Marines gain 5% movement speed increase [Note: this would only come with other changes to Marine movement, which are already planned changes]
Decrease Tres cost and cooldown time of NanoShield by 20%. ( would be 4 Tres, normally 6 Tres and Cooldown to 8s vs 10s )
Unlocks Rapid-Deployment research for Infantry Portals (Commander triggered, Tres costing ability to temporarily increase the rate an IP spawns Marines, shared cooldown for all IPs)
Lower production cost for Infantry Portal, Phase Gate, and Observatories by 20%. ( IP - 12, PG - 12, Obs - 8 )
Increases Supply gained from capturing Resource Nodes by 20% ( gives an extra 2 Team Supply points per captured res-node), does not affect TechPoints.
Lowers cost of Distress Beacon by 20% ( 8 Tres )
Enables Sentries to be Unlocked, allowing for Marines to pick them up and move them. The Commander would have to "activate" the Unlock ability on a sentry for a Marine to be able to pick it up and move it. Sentries would still require a Sentry Battery in order to be Active.
Increases Team Supply cap to 300 ( this change would require lowing TS cap to 150-200 or so )
Here are some things that I've been mulling over that wouldn't necessarily be tied directly to the CS Upgrades. In a few cases, I've listed item mentioned in the CS Upgrades in order to flesh them out and explain them better.
Essentially, force a team to chose either Dual-Rail or Dual-Minigun. In order to make both options viable, unlink the dual-guns from each other. Current, Railguns prevent left or right from charging or firing when the other is charging. Miniguns increase the rate they both overheat at when one (Left or Right) or the other is used. So, to make this binary choice viable from a Pres-angle, make each gun independent of the other. Ex: Left railgun could fire at normal rate while RIght railgun is charging.
Single-Weapon Exo with a Mini-gun. Instead of having a Claw, it has a NanoShield emitter. This self-shield ability would have a charge, and the shield would only be active while a charge remains. There would be a cooldown period while it recharges. The self-shield would act like a Exo sized Riot shield, covering everything forward facing except the Minigun. The intended role for this Exo-Variant is to provide a means to push-though enemy lines. Only one shield could be active at a time, so Commander's couldn't "double up" and NanoShield an Exo with an active self-shield. This would have to be researched via the Protolab by Commanders, but not require any additional Pres for player's buying a Single weapon Exo.
Break the Armor and Weapon Upgrades into four separate level, versus the current 3. Ensure the final result is the same as it currently is..
ArmorL1 - 4: Tres 15,25,35,45. ( AR1 +15, AR2 +30, AR3 +45, AR4 +60 )
Exo ArmorL1 - 4: ( 200 per level, resulting in 1000 armor (2000 effective HP) fully upgraded )
WeaponL1 - 4: Tres 15,25,35,45. ( WP1 +7.5%, WP2 +15%, WP3 +22.5%, WP4 +30% )
Note: The above net-result is identical final upgrade levels as it is today, but take longer and cost more Tres.
All Infantry Portals would gain a new Commander activation ability while active significantly reduces the delay between each Marine spawn in the current queue. Normally, it takes a minimum of 7 seconds for a Marine re-spawn sequence to complete. This would reduce it by 50%, meaning a 3.5 second delay. It would last for 20 seconds. This would mean twice the number of Marines can be respawned in the same amount of time. All IPs in the game would share a cool-down, so only one IP at a time could activate this ability. The research item would be researched from any IP. So it would be up to a Commander to decide where their team needed the most reinforcement.
Pulse grenades and EMP damage in general is something under used in MvM. It's an effective tool for combating other AI-Units and Exos. So, to give the commander this ability, MAC-EMP (as it was in Vanilla) would be added back in. Combined with the MAC-Speed upgrade, and this becomes an effective tool for Commanders to help disrupt enemy teams and support their own. This would be a shared cooldown among all MACs, so it can't be spammed.
Research that enabled better behavior for MACs in general. This would unlock several changes for a MAC:
Patrol Ability - Allow MAC to patrol from point to point building and repairing as it moves along its route.
Stateful Behavior - Ability for Comms to set a MAC as Evassive or Aggressive. In Evassive mode, if a MAC takes damage, it tries to flee from the damage. In Aggressive mode, it doesn't care if it takes damage. It would continue doing what it's doing.
This was an old (pre b180) upgrade for MACs that increased their movement speed by 50%. Combined with the previously two mentioned items, this makes MACs a lot more cost-effective.
This is actually something that's been in in NS2 but never used. Simply put, it would increase the Splash damage (indirect) damage of ARC attacks. I'm mixed on if this should be tied to Weapon-Level upgrades or be a flat increase.
Simple upgrade that increases the ARC moves at. This wouldn't impact the speed at which it deploys / undeploys.
I'm have mixed thoughts about this one. While on paper, I really like the idea, in-game I'm not convinced it would be all that beneficial. Essentially, allow for ECM/ECCM type behaviors for all Sensors (Pings, Scans, and Obs detection). This would mean an Observatory could be upgraded to act as a Jamming-Field. Within this jamming radius, enemy units lose their minimap and their ability to call for Drop-Packs (Meds, Ammo, etc). In addition to this, Scans can be upgraded to "punch-through" a jamming field. This could even be taken as far as preventing Voice-Chat while within a jamming field. The main idea behind this is being able to deny enemy team's from getting Easy-Recon. They'll have to hunt for your bases. Additionally, Commander's would gain a "Active Jamming" ability that would work like Scans do, but jam enemy sensors instead of detecting them.
A direct Line-of-Fire ARC-variant that has increased armor over the default ARC. A commander would give it an attack order on an item, or if it is deployed and left Unordered it will attack Units and Structures on its own. It's weapon is a "plasma beam" (yay techno-babble!) that would have a sustained fire time of approximately 3-5 seconds. Each second this beam is striking a target, it would do 500 damage. Just as the default ARC does, it would require a "spin-up" time before it actually fires its weapon. It may be possible for this to have a sweeping fire aspect. In other words, if an attack order is given, the beam fires, and then the target is changed (commander controlled order), then the beam would remain active and "sweep" from it's old target to its new one. ANY enemy unit or structure that gets hit by this beam would take damage. This means it would be possible for a Marine or Exo to jump infront of the beam in order to block it (as long as they can survive). Combined with the aspects of a Shield-Variant Exo, things get interesting.
That's it for now, but there is quite a bit more I've been thinking about. All of the fore-mentioned items would come at a later time. Only after I've smashed the bugs in the current builds.
So, thoughts?
I would use some of the Arc and Mac abilities under then Mechanised system, the Exo stuff under Infantry (although I think the changes that are being made to Exo mod could work really well with MvM).
I would put the ECM stuff under logistics.
Overall, with the current gameplay, the obs doesn't feel right. It makes sense to have motion tracking against high speed aliens, but when you have a forward base outside an enemy base, you have a permanent wall-hack for both teams. With slow moving players, it is a bit overkill. I think the obs role needs to be reconsidered within the mod.
Sorry for not quoting, but I did't respond directly to any question..
I don't agree with the division of the current 30% buff over 4 weapons levels. I'd actually say leave them as they are and add another one or two levels on top of that. So level 4 weapons would cost 50 tres and buff fire power by 40%, 5 would cost 60 and buff by 50% etc. MVM needs to be an arms race so the 'winning' teams control and dominance snowballs. And there's nothing worse than upgrades that make little impact to the game.
@soulrider I think the ob's functionality is fine. certainly from the RTS perspective the commanders map awareness and ability to support bases with functional structures is very important.
EDIT -- --
Forgot to post the video. Please ignore troop moaning about the game being crap, he whines about everything, but occasionally does have very good ideas and suggestions
@Howser, while on the surface, it seems like you're spot on with that. However, as contradictory as it seems, increasing upgrade levels actually increases the length of the game.
This is a bit long, but bear with me. Using the current damage model, take a look at the examples below: So...just flat out increasing the number of upgrade levels isn't the answer. You have a good point about the Arms(Tech)-Race. However, the current tech-up race appearing to be the definitive factor in winning games is almost entirely due to the utter lack of Tech-Variation. There is no means for either team to separate itself from the other. The biggest reason MvM has the stalemate(like) issues is because of the identical tech-output of each team. This is the issue I want to address with the Tech-Focus Upgrades. Not only do I want to create new tactical options/variation, but mainly I want to at least diminish the damned symmetry some. I will also freely admit, what I've posted so far, isn't enough to create the amount of variance needed to truly solve the problem. But it is a start, more can always be added/changed later.
It also worth mentioning, that increasing the Damage Output of weapons, then brings up the need to re-examine all of the Structure/Buildings HP/AR values. Otherwise, you would be killing a Sentry in 1-2 seconds, or taking out an IP in 2-4 seconds. In that type of speed, the defending team doesn't have a chance of reacting. Then we're right back into the "Not fun / Boring / Frustrating / *Insert Colorful-Metaphor here* " territory.
P.S. I don't know if anyone has been checking but I've made significant progress on the next update this week. I'm focusing on finding the damned cause of the T-pose bug right now, so I doubt the update will come this week (maybe...MAYBE Sunday).
@DarkflameQ You'll be glad to hear the voting-settings bug is fixed in 3.3
People are getting kicked simply for being good players which i always hate to see, i actually preferred the last build when the power was invulnerable, it wasn't ideal but stopped people from destroying their own power nodes by mistake / griefing etc whilst also not requiring a server to have the kick function enabled to be misused.
I am aware you are not in favour of big servers and don't expect you to code the mod around them, i will facilitate via an extra 'big game mod' accordingly (if you don't mind).
I tested the mod for the first time today and reduced game play to 30 minute games on average with no noticeable introduction of bugs / errors or issues, i hope you don't mind.
It wasn't too difficult, a changed setting here and there to reduce grenade spam and speed up commander / exo offense.
If only it was as easy to reduce the amount of stupid commanders.
I'm still waiting for Shine Pre-Game Plus to be updated to work with MvM but there's been no confirmation from the mod author that he has any plans to do so which is a shame.
Only error in my log, doesn't happen very often.
http://www.twitch.tv/soulrider/b/522693455
Yes, it is really that dark on my machine, and no, often I can't see players in the dark, because the white and red highlights blend in with the lights around the maps. I know I was a big fan of the lighting idea before release, but with no lights on, I might as well shut my eyes and run around with my finger held on the trigger....
Also, that beeping noise that keeps overriding the sound is my mouse dc'ing/ As you can see, it mainly only does it while I'm in a battle.
Server will be down until the release of v3.3, really looking forward to the changes and i think 3.2 has been thoroughly tested now, nothing else to get out of it.
What, why take the server down? This mod is released, and now you take away the opportunity for playing it. I am so confused....
I am glad UWe didn't take their servers down between releases while NS2 was in Beta. Really, Your last comment makes no sense whatsoever :-?