Not sure why people are so against r_viewmodels being 0. The most skilled fps games that ever existed allow you to turn it off because game developers accidentally left these options available. People got used to it, realized how amazing it was and there was massive outcry when they tried to remove these customizations from the game.
Skills for an fps game...
- Smarts
- Aim
- Movement
- Understanding
The ability to follow a very fast moving object that constantly changes colors due to shadows and other effects is not a skill. Everyone has different equipment, eyes, gamma/brightness on their monitors and settings. As far as I know NS2 does not balance the game by making shit dark / hard to see shit. If it does? Then that is the most retarded shit I've ever heard because with a Benq 144hz monitor, gamma and brightness cranked to max and blackequalizer, I assure you I already have a massive advantage over someone with a normal monitor.
So I must be a cheater to the rest of you, but I CBF tracking a skulk that constantly changes colour due to map clutter / particle effects / shadows / power nodes.
Anything else that takes away from it should be customizable and removable for the pure-hardcore shooter.
I fully support white walls, pink skulks, r_viewmodel being 0. We finally have a chance to move away from the atmospheric pile of dung that UWE introduced to cater to the casual community and everyone is being to touchey/feely about introducing customization to the competitive scene. If you play premier/div1 and support weapon models that cover 1/3 of the screen, dark maps and an environment where eyesight is a contributing factor to winning engagements your an idiot.
Alas... Who am I talking too. Anyone that is a proper fps hardcore pro still plays CS, Quake, or Warsow. NS2 is a clash of game styles, its a mix of casual atmospheric shit with a game that attempts to be a competitive old-school fps shooter.
Yea because in CS you can turn your viewmodel off...
There are a few reasons I can see it allowed in Quake, but considering you didn't name a single legit reason for having it, I wouldnt expect you to see that NS2 doesnt really fit that requirement (TF2 supports turning it off, but CS doesnt... see the reasoning yet?)
You could argue that there is skill in being able to accurately and quickly distinguish targets from the sea of particle effects, but I think you should be smart enough to realize thats just attempting the same kind of argument your making.
Generally speaking viewmodels shouldnt impact your ability to aim, aside from a couple games that had ridiculous guns which took up half your screen. If your having trouble aiming because of viewmodels i think your going to have other problems anyways.
A grenade ammo counter would be very nice (just like the optional "classic" ammo counter for marine weapons that can be turned on @ the lower right corner).
Plus, you already added an ammo counter for the flamethrower.
MF's point is that someone without 20/20 vision could be already at a huge disadvantage due to this games dark corners, power nodes. I personally don't need flash light in the game at all due to my settings, that's a huge advantage walking into a room with a power node down.
No one who disagress with r_viewmodels 0 has a good argument. I personally don't want a gun covering 1/3 of my screen I want to see skulks that are there when trying to dodge/aim at other targets.
Distinguishing targets isn't a skill, It's about how you run your game settings and how good your eye sight is.
There is no huge advantage in allowing to hide marine viewmodels, Moreso a personal preference. There is some-what a decent argument as to why aliens shouldnt be touched.
Also, for hitscan weapons, the "bullets" come out of your character's eyes and land exactly on your crosshairs, not your weapon. At first this threw me because with viewmodels on it felt like I had to line the weapon's viewmodel up with the target in order to get my shots to land. After a while of getting used to no viewmodels I started landing more hits.
Yea because in CS you can turn your viewmodel off...
There are a few reasons I can see it allowed in Quake, but considering you didn't name a single legit reason for having it, I wouldnt expect you to see that NS2 doesnt really fit that requirement (TF2 supports turning it off, but CS doesnt... see the reasoning yet?)
You could argue that there is skill in being able to accurately and quickly distinguish targets from the sea of particle effects, but I think you should be smart enough to realize thats just attempting the same kind of argument your making.
CS did... its only once it was on Steam that it didn't support it anymore.
Generally speaking viewmodels shouldnt impact your ability to aim, aside from a couple games that had ridiculous guns which took up half your screen. If your having trouble aiming because of viewmodels i think your going to have other problems anyways.
Then what difference does it make if it doesn't change anything?
Removing viewmodels is like removing headbobbing or any camera animation, it totally breaks the immersion for some people, and hiding the weapons/body helps them to get in their character. Some people even get more sick if they have something in the foreground, while others can enjoy tons of body awareness and camera animation without ever getting sick. It's also why in Quake you could display your viewmodel, but disable its swaying.
It's just a matter of preference.
I wonder what would have happened if the reload system of the rifle with camera animation was on all the time. Or even if Uwe never would have implemented the switch for turning off the camera animations.
I personally think of view models as an entirely preferential matter. In all of the games where they can be turned off, some choose to leave them on and some dont. It is similar to crosshairs, fov, resolution, brightness, aspect ratio etc.
I would prefer to keep this a fairly not hostile discussion. I dont totally agree with all of male fatalities points especially those regarding white walls or w/e. I think that is a separate realm entirely (perhaps a map related one?) and one maybe to discuss later and one where I hold an entirely different view from that which was mentioned.
I still haven't really seen a counter argument as to why they should not be implemented, only that they simply wont. This fact is actually quite frustrating because it makes it seem as though a select group is calling all of the shots regardless of what others may think (I remember similar thoughts prior to the implementation of build 250, which actually caused many to abandon the scene entirely). The only person who has graced me with an answer has been rantology, whose response seemed fairly illogical, at least from where I stand, especially considering she assumed that many other competitive first person shooters do not allow the removal of gun models: a sentiment that is quite simply untrue.
I personally agree with MF's sentiment whole heartedly regarding competitive FPS design. I do not think that navigating visual clutter is an interesting skill and it should really have no part in a competitive FPS. However, altering things like this is going to affect the fundamental balance of the game, and I do think such things should be beyond the scope of this mod and should be more a part of the balance mod. Apart from anything else, it would be really nice to see this mod gain wide spread adoption with server operators and that would be much easier without having to explain possible balance implications to admins who I guess would be immediately sceptical.
It is highly unfortunate that there seems to be no motivation for developing an actual "NS2 promod" within most of the senior community members and we will be left to suffer at least some of UWE's bad design decisions.
I know CS did pre steam, but the argument still stands - it makes little sense for a game like NS2 where your shooting hitscan rounds. Considering 1.6 was the defacto game its quite clear that to actual PROS, it doesn't matter that much or they would have reverted it. If you think your viewmodel takes of 1/3 of your screen, just lol please. Atleast use facts for your arguments, you just sound like a whinny kid making up stuff like that.
Its not about keeping the immersion or anything, we already run NSL maps with 2 lights per room. I honestly dont care either way, but allowing that command CAN open the door to some specific exploits which is the main reason I say its a bad idea.
[...]but allowing that command CAN open the door to some specific exploits which is the main reason I say its a bad idea.
The is actually the first good reason against hiding the gun model.
But please don't argue with unfair advantage or it might scare new players bullshit. There is like 50 people playing the game competitvely and with NSL maps and ns2+ already being standart there is no reason (except dragons) to not make it an option for player who want it.
I cant say whats possible in other games, NS2 has some unique.. opportunities. Once you removed the viewmodel from your screen you would be able to make every entity in the game glow florescent green or something, since you wouldn't need to worry about being blinding by the entity in your hands glowing also.
Lets do this r_drawviewmodels 0 for marines fuck yeah.
So if we gather enough teams, more than 50% its going live in the ensl?
Thats how things are handled amirite?
Oh and mendasp were can we donate? It's pretty fucked up we didnt give u shit tbh. So get a paypal plz
I cant say whats possible in other games, NS2 has some unique.. opportunities. Once you removed the viewmodel from your screen you would be able to make every entity in the game glow florescent green or something, since you wouldn't need to worry about being blinding by the entity in your hands glowing also.
Wait what? It's two different things.
And fyi it is already the case in the majority of servers (all officials to begin with). You can make others things glow fluo even in the dark or make transparency even more useless.
Sigh, i dont want to shit up mendasps thread but you must not understand how consistency checks work.. Any ENSL servers (i dont care about pubs) force consistency on most of the games files, which includes textures/models. What I'm talking about is much lower level and CAN bypass those checks, and would also let you see things through walls etc.
If you can already do this on pubs with textures and such, WTF why are you asking for another mod to do it too?
So there will be a volume slider? That noise level in your video I honestly find obnoxious but the hit beeps arn't too bad an idea. So assuming a slider I could make it more suttle?
Comments
I don't have to do anything, the client already believes they are real players. I tested. :P
Skills for an fps game...
- Smarts
- Aim
- Movement
- Understanding
The ability to follow a very fast moving object that constantly changes colors due to shadows and other effects is not a skill. Everyone has different equipment, eyes, gamma/brightness on their monitors and settings. As far as I know NS2 does not balance the game by making shit dark / hard to see shit. If it does? Then that is the most retarded shit I've ever heard because with a Benq 144hz monitor, gamma and brightness cranked to max and blackequalizer, I assure you I already have a massive advantage over someone with a normal monitor.
So I must be a cheater to the rest of you, but I CBF tracking a skulk that constantly changes colour due to map clutter / particle effects / shadows / power nodes.
Anything else that takes away from it should be customizable and removable for the pure-hardcore shooter.
I fully support white walls, pink skulks, r_viewmodel being 0. We finally have a chance to move away from the atmospheric pile of dung that UWE introduced to cater to the casual community and everyone is being to touchey/feely about introducing customization to the competitive scene. If you play premier/div1 and support weapon models that cover 1/3 of the screen, dark maps and an environment where eyesight is a contributing factor to winning engagements your an idiot.
Alas... Who am I talking too. Anyone that is a proper fps hardcore pro still plays CS, Quake, or Warsow. NS2 is a clash of game styles, its a mix of casual atmospheric shit with a game that attempts to be a competitive old-school fps shooter.
There are a few reasons I can see it allowed in Quake, but considering you didn't name a single legit reason for having it, I wouldnt expect you to see that NS2 doesnt really fit that requirement (TF2 supports turning it off, but CS doesnt... see the reasoning yet?)
You could argue that there is skill in being able to accurately and quickly distinguish targets from the sea of particle effects, but I think you should be smart enough to realize thats just attempting the same kind of argument your making.
Generally speaking viewmodels shouldnt impact your ability to aim, aside from a couple games that had ridiculous guns which took up half your screen. If your having trouble aiming because of viewmodels i think your going to have other problems anyways.
Plus, you already added an ammo counter for the flamethrower.
MF's point is that someone without 20/20 vision could be already at a huge disadvantage due to this games dark corners, power nodes. I personally don't need flash light in the game at all due to my settings, that's a huge advantage walking into a room with a power node down.
No one who disagress with r_viewmodels 0 has a good argument. I personally don't want a gun covering 1/3 of my screen I want to see skulks that are there when trying to dodge/aim at other targets.
Distinguishing targets isn't a skill, It's about how you run your game settings and how good your eye sight is.
There is no huge advantage in allowing to hide marine viewmodels, Moreso a personal preference. There is some-what a decent argument as to why aliens shouldnt be touched.
Also, for hitscan weapons, the "bullets" come out of your character's eyes and land exactly on your crosshairs, not your weapon. At first this threw me because with viewmodels on it felt like I had to line the weapon's viewmodel up with the target in order to get my shots to land. After a while of getting used to no viewmodels I started landing more hits.
Then what difference does it make if it doesn't change anything?
Removing viewmodels is like removing headbobbing or any camera animation, it totally breaks the immersion for some people, and hiding the weapons/body helps them to get in their character. Some people even get more sick if they have something in the foreground, while others can enjoy tons of body awareness and camera animation without ever getting sick. It's also why in Quake you could display your viewmodel, but disable its swaying.
It's just a matter of preference.
I wonder what would have happened if the reload system of the rifle with camera animation was on all the time. Or even if Uwe never would have implemented the switch for turning off the camera animations.
I would prefer to keep this a fairly not hostile discussion. I dont totally agree with all of male fatalities points especially those regarding white walls or w/e. I think that is a separate realm entirely (perhaps a map related one?) and one maybe to discuss later and one where I hold an entirely different view from that which was mentioned.
I still haven't really seen a counter argument as to why they should not be implemented, only that they simply wont. This fact is actually quite frustrating because it makes it seem as though a select group is calling all of the shots regardless of what others may think (I remember similar thoughts prior to the implementation of build 250, which actually caused many to abandon the scene entirely). The only person who has graced me with an answer has been rantology, whose response seemed fairly illogical, at least from where I stand, especially considering she assumed that many other competitive first person shooters do not allow the removal of gun models: a sentiment that is quite simply untrue.
It is highly unfortunate that there seems to be no motivation for developing an actual "NS2 promod" within most of the senior community members and we will be left to suffer at least some of UWE's bad design decisions.
Its not about keeping the immersion or anything, we already run NSL maps with 2 lights per room. I honestly dont care either way, but allowing that command CAN open the door to some specific exploits which is the main reason I say its a bad idea.
The is actually the first good reason against hiding the gun model.
But please don't argue with unfair advantage or it might scare new players bullshit. There is like 50 people playing the game competitvely and with NSL maps and ns2+ already being standart there is no reason (except dragons) to not make it an option for player who want it.
hue hue hue
How could it be exploited, if added to the NS2+ menu with the option: on/off?
So if we gather enough teams, more than 50% its going live in the ensl?
Thats how things are handled amirite?
Oh and mendasp were can we donate? It's pretty fucked up we didnt give u shit tbh. So get a paypal plz
And fyi it is already the case in the majority of servers (all officials to begin with). You can make others things glow fluo even in the dark or make transparency even more useless.
If you can already do this on pubs with textures and such, WTF why are you asking for another mod to do it too?
You stated you won't have the hitsounds play when you hit structures, how about Onos?
Ok, I'll tweak them a bit.
I actually wanted a low-shot but I completely missed instead