In praise of large servers

245

Comments

  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Members Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Posts: 323 Fully active user
    Server is a disaster. When late game comes, it's literally like watching a slideshow. Huge freezes every 15-20 seconds, horrible rubber banding, micro stuttering, etc. I don't understand how people enjoy that.
    ball2hiDarkflameQ
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    @ns2isgood‌ You don't need to understand how people enjoy it, just accept that they do...
    Games:Subnautica Fan Game Mods: GorgeCraft & CTF & Proving Grounds Website: andysoulrider.uk
    Twitter: @AndySoulRider Twitch: Twitch.tv/SoulRider YouTube: Youtube.com/user/IamSoulRider/videos

    Capitalisation is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.
    Knowledge is gained through listening, Understanding is gained through discussion.
    _INTER_calorkDrNo
  • _INTER__INTER_ Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Posts: 822 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    While I also have mixed feelings about 20v20 gameplay and performance, I think that blaming those couple servers of taking players from normal 6v6 / 8v8 servers and thus destroying NS2 is just dumb.
    If people keep joining those servers despite the bad fps and balance, the normal servers simply lack somewhere. The market is all about demand and supply and whoever is not up to the competition and fails to supply, will fall behind.
    Warforce17 wrote: »
    RapGod wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    --> pistol time axe time welder time riflebutt time
    calorkDarkflameQ
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    I also wouldn't suggest that 'many people understand that it's a modded version of the game.' Sure, people who hang around here will know that, but average joe pubber doesn't - also judging by the sheer number of 'WTF lag?!' comments I saw when I played on Wooza's server, I contest that the vast majority of people who play there have NO CLUE that the performance isn't meant to be like that.
    Of course it doesn't help that the 18 slot official multiplay servers have godawful performance as well :/

    I'm not saying that people don't enjoy playing on high player count servers, but I am suggesting that they don't appreciate just how drastic the effect of high player counts is upon both server and client performance.

    Otherwise why do they constantly spam 'omg lag' 'WTF' 'what is this red plug?' 'AARGH' in chat - which I see ALL THE TIME in larger servers?
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • MartigenMartigen AustraliaMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2714Posts: 784 Advanced user
    james888 wrote: »
    My one major complaint about servers this big, is that it takes from other servers. You could have two 20 players servers full.
    Sorry but this is flawed logic. There are already plenty of 20 player servers also available at the same time. Yet people are choosing to go to Wooza's 42 player server. Nothing is stopping them from going to 20 player servers. Here, for these players at least, the crowd has chosen.
    Benson wrote: »
    While I understand the attraction of large servers (casual atmosphere, low individual player value, sheer mayhem), I still think the sweet spot for public games is 18-20 players. Its a perfect balance of mayhem and casual fun, while still allowing for some tactics and strategy
    This is also a bit of a misnomer, but only a bit :) The comparison earlier that it's like Combat is fair -- I used to like Combat in NS1, but I much preferred a normal game on a larger server. This gives purpose to the fighthing and allows for much more dynamic games, as opposed to Combat which was just a frag-fest.

    And that's what some people may be missing here, and perhaps I'm at fault in my OP describing the fights -- Wooza's provides both intese fighting experiences, but it's still a stragegic game to win. Early game is just like on small servers where using your head will get you ahead on the field or as a comm, and late-game I've played many games where hives and come and go and been re-taken again as both teams try to outwit the other.

    Lots of players != less strategy. It gives rise to new strategies in addition to old ones. Though you still have to deal with pub mentality and having not everyone listening to the comm.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Martigen wrote: »
    and secondly ping doesn't matter
    My farmland internet wishes to have a word with you
    Lol. How does it play over satellite? :)
    Wooza's playground needs to die a horrible death in fire. Should not be visible to rookies, lest they get an absolutely appauling first impression of the game. I played a couple of games and it is my personal opinion that whoever is allowing this travesty to exist should be hogtied and lowered into a volcano.
    Weeeellll I think that's a bit over the top, but as you said it's your opinion. Have you considered that if the rookies find Wooza's immensely fun that this is encouraging to NS2? I've been getting a friend into NS2 recently using Woozas. He's not a professional player, and just wants to play for fun. Your own comment about the volume of players having less of an impact overall is probably one of the reasons this works in his favour.

    I do think it's interesting the level of vitriol so far in response to the topic, though. If you read this you'd think no one would be on Woozas, but that's clearly not the case given there's frequently queues to get on.

    stf // martigen
    calork
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Actually there is a human psychology element to server population that you're not considering - it does give weight to the argument that large servers are taking players away from smaller servers. It's not a popular argument, because to some degree it suggests that we humans are creatures of habit rather than completely free will :)

    I would add in that I do sometimes join these silly servers, but absolutely not for any interest in playing the game at any strategic level. Like combat servers, I use them occasionally to warm up my aim and movement. They offer me zero enjoyment on any 'strategic' level, but do offer the opportunity to practice how to react when being swarmed (on either team) - provided the server hardware can handle the playercount (which on wooza's is absolutely not the case). I certainly wouldn't bother trying to do any kind of teamwork on these servers, and most of my friends say the same thing to me: it's fine for a frag fest, but it's not really NS2 :)
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
    RegnarebSanCo
  • MartigenMartigen AustraliaMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2714Posts: 784 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    If people keep joining those servers despite the bad fps and balance, the normal servers simply lack somewhere. The market is all about demand and supply and whoever is not up to the competition and fails to supply, will fall behind.
    Following on from my last post, this probably sums it up nicely. There is clerly a demand for the type of gameplay Wooza's provides.

    Roobubba wrote: »
    Otherwise why do they constantly spam 'omg lag' 'WTF' 'what is this red plug?' 'AARGH' in chat - which I see ALL THE TIME in larger servers?
    I won't lie I've seen that on Wooza's too, usually when the game ends and everyone is dumped into the ready room. Also sometimes in the most intense firefights, but I think it depends on map. I've not seen this on any other server though, maybe the AU 20 players ones are just beefier :)
    stf // martigen
    calork
  • ScatterScatter Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Posts: 635 Advanced user
    Martigen didn't stf used to be a pretty good clan. I am embarrassed on your behalf ^_^
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Roobubba wrote: »
    I pointed out the terrible early game tick rate to wooza when I tried his server out, his response was 'what do you expect? I'm running 42 slots'
    if you know it gives an awful experience because it is way beyond your hardware's capability, then you also know that what you're doing is falsely advertising bad game performance to the many people who don't know this is a hacked, unofficial game mode.

    I think you are not getting the point. You look at this from a competitive player's point of view. For you it's horrible.
    That's fine. It's your opinion and you have the right to have this opinion.

    But just because you think it's not an enjoyable experience, doesn't mean it can't be for others.
    So, please, stop telling other people what to do based on your very personal preferences.

    Thank you.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    calorkKungFuJV
  • RadimaXRadimaX Members Join Date: 2013-02-05 Member: 182840Posts: 587 Advanced user
    UWE is never gonna put 24+ servers up becouse they dont want to give bad publicity for their own engine by revealing the allknown fact that the engine cannot handle 24+ players without ticrate drops or lag and overall bad performance. Thats why UWE shut down Onos Bar 32 slot server and took legal action or whatever they did to make him take it down.
  • BensonBenson Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Posts: 1,296 Advanced user
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    @Benson oh no!! Why did you go and bring KKG into this... As if there wasn't going to be enough larger sever flaming. Oh well it's like combat, it's fun to run around and kill without a care.

    Like it or not, KKG servers are almost always populated, and rarely have performance issues. (and Ive never seen evidence of abuse, like some people clam is rampant).

    They must be doing something that the people want :D
    If we are to be damned, let us be damned for what we really are. - Capt. Jean Luc Picard
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Members Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Posts: 681 Fully active user
    Six-TP-map yakushima has a home at last! :D

    My first impression on the server was on veil. We (alien team) got overrun and isolated by dozens of gl spamming rines. And there was no way to stop them in the small corridors. That let me miss all the awesome ns1 alien weaponry and I was admittedly a bit angry. But players kept defending the situation vehemently and explained that the w/l rate on the server is very balanced. I gave the big server a few more chances and they were right. You have to think differently and use different tactics on such a big server. But I never had so much fun playing my map ;) And I am grateful for that.

    The server seems to be full all the time. My favorite 18-24 player servers are full as well, so I don't see a problem here. It is like saying: I like ns1 siege maps in this forum. Then the same guys will pop up and tell you how wrong you are in likeing them ;) You are wrong and I am awesome. That's the spirit of nowadays internet users. Be happy that others have fun playing on a 42 player server. That's better then all the complaining.
    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win" - 孫子 "When you think you win, tighten the strap of your helmet"

    ns2_yakushima, ns2_honorguard
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    I had fun on the server, not that fun matters anymore. My favorite experiences in ns1 were in 32 player servers and siege maps, yet people will say this is the wrong way to play the game.

    Besides, if the netcode wasn't so awful in the first place the server performance wouldn't be as bad as it is.
    Vetinariball2hi
  • driestdriest GermanyMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-02-21 Member: 183251Posts: 79
    He's not a professional player, and just wants to play for fun. Your own comment about the volume of players having less of an impact overall is probably one of the reasons this works in his favour.
    Thats exactly the point why it's always full. There are a lot of players that don't want the deep strategic component of NS2 and just like to shoot/bite stuff all day. It doesn't have anything to do with being a competitive player. Me personally, I have never played even a PUG/Gather but still avoid servers bigger then 18 slots for all the mentioned reasons. Aside from the obvious performance and balance problems, it is simply impossible to do any real strategy/teamwork. The reason is not that the game mechanics wont allow for that, but that these servers primarily attract people whose idea of the game is running around as a marine with a GL/Flamer shooting at random stuff while disabling voice chat and listening to music. The mentioned "strategy" mainly consists of beaconing 20 players close to a hive and have them rush it, or making a huge xeno/onos crazyhouse out of marine start and lagging around randomly pressing their mouse key.

    I'm just glad a big portion of these players stay away from smaller servers and have their random laggy crapfests with themselves, so I think it's a good thing these servers exist and hope more people operate one. I'm running my public server on 14 slots with 2 reserved additional ones, and I'm very happy when these kind of players stay away ;).
    Come and join us on Teamplay FTW NS2 server ! The only German server where people know how to use microphones ;)
    Draconis
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South EnglandMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Posts: 1,551 Advanced user
    The significant portion of the issue is that higher player counts totally break the standard game mode.

    I wouldn't even care if it was a combat server, seige, or something. I'd probably even play it if the lag wasn't so damned awful and if the server wasn't full of newbies.
    Too weird to live, yet too rare to die
  • ball2hiball2hi Members Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Posts: 146 Fully active user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I Pub exclusively and it is my opinion that knowingly providing broken, laggy, rubber banding gameplay to new NS2 players is doing a disservice to player retention
    I wouldn't care half as much about any hacked playercount servers and the horrid imbalance that ensues ... as long as the server hardware could handle it. (which it can't, in this case)

    This, a million times this. I get rather frustrated that people would continue to play on laggy servers (+20 slots/Bad hardware) as it keeps the genuinely decent servers from being filled. I figure they are either misinformed and keep going to the server just because they believe the game is suppose to lag, or because they don't care.

    However, both of these scenarios are terrible. People should care about performance, people should be informed on bad performance. It gives really bad impressions and frustration to other players because they don't have a choice in servers to pick from. "Let's see, should I join this 23/24 server that red plugs every 5s... or sit in their 0/18 UWE Official and hope it fills?".
    76561198098477111.png
    ns2isgood
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    I think playing on Wooza's server is like playing Reverse Chess (aka Antichess). No doubt, the game is meant to be played differently, and that variant has neither the tactical depth nor the unique "gameplay feel" as the original version. Clearly, the original version has to be preferred.

    However, who plays Reverse Chess?
    A) Players who enjoy it more than usual chess, maybe because it's too hard or because it's too complex; they either play Reverse or not at all
    B) Players who attempted chess but lack the skill to play it; however, they still play Reverse Chess because they can and because they think it's fun
    C) Chess Players with the skill and motivation to play normal chess, but who enjoy the occasional party of Reverse Chess just for fun

    Player types A and B are unlikely to ever play real chess. If you'd force them to stop playing Reverse Chess, they would drop chess as a whole. Player type C however is not likely to play too much of Reverse Chess in the first place.

    Now, this analogy is (of course) not perfect, but I think it gets my point across: Oversized servers like Wooza's are unlikely to seriously harm NS2: The players there either wouldn't enhance your standard pub game (A&B), or know what they are doing, anyway, and are all but lost to the NS2 community forever (C).

    This is different, however, with 24 player servers, for two reasons:
    1) They trick you into thinking you are "playing real chess", while actually their balancing AND performance are considerably worse than what is acceptable
    2a) Assuming that the sweet spot in public play is 18 players (personal preference), they drain 6 players/server from other servers; meaning that you'd only have to scale down 3 full 24 players servers to get 4 full 18 player servers - that's a 25% increase
    2b) There's hella lot of 24p servers, worsening the effect considerably. Compared to that, a single 40p server is insignificant, and at the same time so ludicrously oversized that I can't be taken as seriously (even by less experienced players; please, don't underestimate the intelligence of an individual).

    By this logic, 3 - 4 24p servers are actually worse than 1 40p server. (Note that a lost player from a 24p server is actually slightly worse than one from a 40p server, because he thinks he's "playing real chess").
    Now, tell me, how many 24p servers and how many 40p servers are there in your list, and how often and long are they populated?

    So let's go back to bashing 24p servers, and let some people have fun on 40. It's not like you are forced to play with them, either ;)


    This post got way more elaborated than I originally intended...
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    ball2hi
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    We could have huge servers if game was rewritten in C or something, but that obviously is never gonna happen.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • BalmarkBalmark Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3476Posts: 332 Advanced user
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    Official servers are multiplay servers that can't even hold 30 ticks late game, how would it ever run with 42 people.
    I think this is just that the Multiplay servers are well below par more than anything else ..

    I should know .. I've been running one for a while now .. also a bluefangsolutions one .. and bluefang > multiplay

    UWE servers being multiplay is probably down to the interface and profiling options .. and less about their performance :/ Even though their servers report consistent tick rates of 30 .. but if you're actually ingame .. it's different .. the red plug and have issues with hitreg in my experience :/
    Roobubba wrote:
    if you know it gives an awful experience because it is way beyond your hardware's capability, then you also know that what you're doing is falsely advertising bad game performance to the many people who don't know this is a hacked, unofficial game mode.
    I'm sorry but I can't condone that sort of behaviour: it does more harm than good to the community as a whole.

    so true ..


  • BalmarkBalmark Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3476Posts: 332 Advanced user
    edited March 2014
    The reason these servers get populated ..
    1. is they can sustain lose of players .. an entire team can ragequit and there's still enough to play another game ..
    2. they appear at the top of the list if you sort by players (to throw empty servers down to the bottom)
    3. new players seek refuge in the anonymity of large servers
    4. ppl assume that since the server has so many players, it must be good ...
    5. the other servers are empty :P


    Omega_K2Sharp-ShooterDarkflameQ
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    *dives off edge of forum*
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    Martigen wrote: »
    james888 wrote: »
    My one major complaint about servers this big, is that it takes from other servers. You could have two 20 players servers full.
    Sorry but this is flawed logic. There are already plenty of 20 player servers also available at the same time. Yet people are choosing to go to Wooza's 42 player server. Nothing is stopping them from going to 20 player servers. Here, for these players at least, the crowd has chosen.

    Not really.

    Besides the reasons Balmark just mentioned, I have one more that happens to me often. I prefer servers with 20 player count, but I only like 18 players playing. I open ns2, I look for a server. I see only one server with a slot open. It happens to be usually a 24p slot. I have the choice to either seed an empty server or join the 24p server because I would rather play than seed. In the case of this 42 player server, now there is even less servers with players. Now all I would see is a few full 24p servers and a slot open on the 42p server.

    I know a good many people personally, at least enough to fill that 42p server would rather play on a smaller player count but don't do to laziness and would rather just play the game regardless of quality. Other join out of ignorance. Regardless a 42p server is a cancer.

    I may also dislike 24p servers and wish they would all drop down to 18-20p. They do have a decent reason I do believe, that is rage quits wont kill the server. This 42p server is so overkill it can't claim that distinction.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    One thing in favour of larger servers is the statistical likelihood of having a player prepared to command on each team. In my experience, delays at the start of a game waiting for 2 commanders are the primary reason that smaller servers do sometimes empty out more than larger ones.

    But it's still possible to kill a large server in prime time by stacking (I've *ahem* seen it done *ahem* on KKG before) :D
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
    VetinariPaajtor
  • dePARAdePARA Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Posts: 1,351 Advanced user
    @ UWE (Andi)

    Please introduce upcoming server- client- and movementrate changes without any serveroptimations.

    The result would be:
    If serveradmins of >24 slot servers want to change the rates, the server would end rubberbanding from hell or hopefully exploding cause the higher serverload.
    image
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain HighMembers, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Posts: 1,025 Advanced user
    A little off topic.
    RadimaX wrote: »
    Thats why UWE shut down Onos Bar 32 slot server and took legal action or whatever they did to make him take it down.

    @RadimaX dead thread alert:
    Pretty sure it was their own decision to shut it down.

    OP-wise anyways, I've never seen it w/ a slot open, so I've never been able to play on it. But hey, kinda points to the obvious popularity of it.
  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    Agree to everything @RaZDaZ said.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
    DarkflameQ
  • MartigenMartigen AustraliaMembers, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Reinforced - Onos Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2714Posts: 784 Advanced user
    Scatter wrote: »
    Martigen didn't stf used to be a pretty good clan. I am embarrassed on your behalf ^_^
    Yes, we were one of the best.

    And if I've had a change of perspective, so can you :)

    RaZDaZ wrote: »
    But trying to get any sort of empathy or understanding from people on these forums or in this community in general is impossible considering how much of a superiority complex competitive players and vets (rightfully so in some respects) have regarding 24+ servers. More often that not, in the eyes of a vet, if you play on 24 player or more then you're scum. That's the impression I get on these forums.
    I think that pretty much nails it.

    Finally, there's only one other thing that need be said:

    Every server starts out empty. Ever server requires at least one player to join to seed it. As many of you have confirmed, larger servers get seeded over small ones. And that's everything you need to know -- that's what the majority of the NS2 community is doing, choosing to seed larger servers. You think these servers are killing the community, but what you don't see is that they're saving it. Without them, right now, there would be less players playing.

    So if anything, much though the elite among you may hate to think about it, you should be thanking Wooza. New players join, and stay, for servers like this.

    Including me.


    stf // martigen
    RaZDaZKungFuJV
Sign In or Register to comment.