Exploits for finding enemy team's base (and what to do about it????)

BeigeAlertBeigeAlert TexasMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Posts: 2,829 admin
edited February 2014 in NS2 General Discussion
EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T READ ANY FURTHER! JUST GO BACK TO THE GENERAL DISCUSSION PAGE, AND LEAVE THIS PLACE IMMEDIATELY!!! This thread is tearing us apart!!!
Okay so most-everybody knows that as marine commander, you can drop a medpack on an RT to see if it is indeed the alien's starting location. I've discovered recently while testing my map that aliens also have an option at their disposal: "nav_debug". This is a console command that makes the game draw the navigation mesh so you can see where your arcs/macs/drifters/cysts can be placed, and make sure things are connecting up where they should, etc, etc.

BUT here's the kicker, "nav_debug" can be enabled by ANYBODY at any time. The server does not need to have cheats enabled. This also can be used to figure out what else marines may have in their base.

The obvious solution is to make it only accessible when cheats are on. Easy. But hold on, now marines still have the cheesy tactic of being able to drop a medpack on an RT, and aliens still have to guess.

So in addition to making nav_debug a cheats-only command, let's make it so medpacks don't land on alien structures unless they are revealed (line of sight or scan).
Post edited by BeigeAlert on
«13

Comments

  • SamusDroidSamusDroid ColoradoMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Posts: 2,155 mod
    edited February 2014
    No. It should not be a cheat command because it's useful for gorge tunnel placement, and there's already been attempts to fix the medpack tactic.
    My mods --- Watermod collaboration with Feha
    For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping. - KungFuDiscoMonkey
    Z5UIr2s.png
    skulkgato
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert TexasMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Posts: 2,829 admin
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    No. It should not be a cheat command because it's useful for gorge tunnel placement, and there's already been attempts to fix the medpack tactic.

    Well I've never had much trouble placing a gorge tunnel before... but what if when you are placing a gorge tunnel it sort of highlights the nav mesh near where you are so you can see the valid spots?
    tallhotblondeOscarTheCouch
  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Members Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Posts: 274
    edited February 2014
    I say, leave the medpack "exploit" as is. The marine starting location tends to be a lot less random (and even fixed on some maps like Veil or Eclipse). Aliens are also much more mobile and have the added bonus of not having to stop to build power nodes and RTs on the way. Finding the Marine starting location is almost a non issue. Unless this somehow affects competitive play in some significant way, Id say its about as harmful to the game as the rocket jump in quake.
    CarNagE1VetinariBlarney_Stone
  • SnXSnX Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2013-01-17 Member: 180145Posts: 28 Fully active user
    They fixed the medpack drop in an earlier release and it came back again in a later release. I am also keen to know why this is back again?
  • ns2isgoodns2isgood Members Join Date: 2013-04-16 Member: 184847Posts: 323 Fully active user
    I don't mind the med drop trick, it's just a discounted scan.
    AurOn2VetinariOscarTheCouch
  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Another trick for finding structures / starting hive is using waypoints, like on the IP.
    elodeaDraconis
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    Games:Subnautica Fan Game Mods: GorgeCraft & CTF & Proving Grounds Website: andysoulrider.uk
    Twitter: @AndySoulRider Twitch: Twitch.tv/SoulRider YouTube: Youtube.com/user/IamSoulRider/videos

    Capitalisation is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.
    Knowledge is gained through listening, Understanding is gained through discussion.
    AurOn2
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! AustraliaMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Posts: 2,130 mod
    on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.
    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

    The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves, “You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.” - George Carlin.

    Youtube Channel for Sydney Music
  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    It's no more than 2, actually, on any official map. There is no map where 4 other points are possibly starts for aliens.

    ns2_summit - 2 (cross excluded)
    ns2_tram - 0 if you start on top, 1 if shipping
    ns2_mineshaft - 1 (cave or sorting)
    ns2_docking - 2
    ns2_veil - 2, Sub is more often a starting hive than others, so you can go with 1 most of the times.
    ns2_refinery - 1 if you start on flow or containment, 0 if turbine or smelting, as there are no more options (Pipe excluded, no close spawns)
    ns2_biodome - 2 (falls excluded)
    ns2_eclipse - 2

    So, depending on your intuition, you will waste no more than 2 res and get info almost instantly. As opposed to scans, where you have to invest 10+10 res for obs, up to 30 seconds to build it (or powerbuild at cost of slower expansion), then 3 res per scan.

    I don't like this technique at all. 'First contact' guess is much more interesting, and it's still a guess.

    Quote from store page:
    Random start locations mean you must scout your enemy and before committing to a build. Every game is different.

    Putting ghosts structures at possible aliens starts as soon as game start can get you this info for free. Trade off is, if you place too many and/or at wrong points, you will not have access to these Res for some time, slowing your expansion or will have to sell blueprints and still lose money
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    First contact is OP in pubs, not so at higher levels. :)
    Games:Subnautica Fan Game Mods: GorgeCraft & CTF & Proving Grounds Website: andysoulrider.uk
    Twitter: @AndySoulRider Twitch: Twitch.tv/SoulRider YouTube: Youtube.com/user/IamSoulRider/videos

    Capitalisation is the difference between helping your Uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.
    Knowledge is gained through listening, Understanding is gained through discussion.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Members Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Posts: 495 Advanced user
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    No. It should not be a cheat command because it's useful for gorge tunnel placement, and there's already been attempts to fix the medpack tactic.

    Why though? I don't understand how finding a hive location is an issue. Most of the time marines start at a fixed location anyway, so it's only fair that marines have some way of finding out where the start hive is. In any case, within the first minute the "top secret" start hive spot would have been found as some marine walks into it on the search for rts.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • simple_simple_ Members Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188102Posts: 41 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    At the start of a round you can try to drop a RT at the possible alien locations.
    If it works, recycle it. If you get an error -> there is your starting hive. Res cost? Zero.
    Thats what I usually do, while my marines build the first RTs.

    Never tried it, but should work with cc, too.

    Edit: Sorry, did not see the spoiler from xen32
  • KhyronKhyron Members Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.

    It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.

    meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.

    nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.

    Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
    RegnarebhakenspitMartigen
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WIMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Posts: 1,437 Advanced user
    The only map where it is rather difficult to identify the alien location after the first 20 seconds is veil. Even then, knowing where the alien start is usually doesn't affect the game at all.

    There are far to many ways to identify/"exploit" alien start location to fix.

    If you cant waypoint, you can drop a med...
    if you cant med, you can drop ccs...
    if you cant drop ccs, you can drop rts...
    etc...

    IronHorse
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Members Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Posts: 495 Advanced user
    Khyron wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.

    It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.

    meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.

    nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.

    Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.

    Dictatorial claptrap.
    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    @simple_ recycle is not zero cost, it only gives you back a portion of full cost.
    meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.
    Uh, no. Makes so many tactics useless.
    AurOn2MrFangs
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    No. It should not be a cheat command because it's useful for gorge tunnel placement, and there's already been attempts to fix the medpack tactic.

    You can use nav_debug to find locations of enemy structures you have not spotted. Not JUST the chair, but you can also see sneaky phase gates or cloaked gorge tunnels if you manage to spot them from command. I think that ranks pretty high up there as cheating.
    BeigeAlertOscarTheCouch
  • KhyronKhyron Members Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    xen32 wrote: »
    Uh, no. Makes so many tactics useless.
    Hm.. I was thinking off the cuff and in response to HeatSurge's solution which seemed fine except for needing to drop meds around a PG under attack. What tactics are you thinking of?

    @SupaDupaNoodle and anyone else who disagrees with me... I don't get it. Do you guys not think this is a bug? If not why have there been so many attempts by UWE to fix it? First they hid the hive sound effects from commander view, then the particle effects, then the medpack trick stopped working... now it's back. It seems pretty clear to me that UWE doesn't intend for this trick to work. If you disagree because you think the solutions are flawed, then propose an alternative. If I sound dictatorial it's because these kind of bugs are so pervasive in NS2, they've been around for so long and the solution seems so apparent that I don't think it requires a discussion. But I'm happy to hear alternatives. ¯\(°_o)/¯
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
    Team + local voice communication
    CD121AurOn2
  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Members Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Posts: 274
    edited February 2014
    Khyron wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    Uh, no. Makes so many tactics useless.
    Hm.. I was thinking off the cuff and in response to HeatSurge's solution which seemed a good place to start solving this problem. What tactics are you thinking of?

    The thing a lot of people are trying to say is that its not actually a "problem" and doesn't need solving.
    If I recall, the med dropping way of finding hives has been around since NS1. It wasn't a problem then, and its not a problem now.
    The nav_debug thing is a different story, though I haven't tested it and cant really judge weather its being blown out of proportion or a legitimate issue.
    joshhhVetinariAurOn2
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind youMembers Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Posts: 1,684 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    While for smaller maps the medpack drop thing shouldn't cause much issues, for larger maps (mostly if modders made a considerably large one in the future), they might run into some issues since it's not as easy to find it on foot and hence the medpack drop thing would be OP. But AFAIK, there aren't any very large maps.

    Personally I think server should choose.
    When life gives you lemons, throw it back and demand chocolate.


  • VetinariVetinari Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Posts: 3,469 Advanced user
    coolitic wrote: »
    (mostly if modders made a considerably large one in the future)

    Those are made all the time and usually are fixed or outright disappear soon, as they just don't work.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Members Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Posts: 148 Fully active user
    I don't think it matters imo. Like someone said earlier, within the first 30 seconds you can deduce what their starting hive is at. Without wasting res on the medpack trick.

    joohoo_n3d
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Typically i would edit/nuke any exploit mentioned of any form in these forums and warn said user..

    But considering the wide array of options at users' disposal and the fact that fixing these have just resulted in a never ending game of whack-a-mole where they continue to rear their heads every other patch, or new methods pop up, and then the final nail in the coffin : that devs have pretty much given up on fixing it a while ago as a result of all this.... I think its best to just mass spread these tips to every player to at least level the playing field.

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    vartija
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Posts: 216 Fully active user
    do nothing about it.
    you can figure out where the other team starts by where they make their first engagement or which direction they are scouted...the maps are small. this aint planetside2.

    gorge tunnels have been broke since they "fixed the exploit" of being able to place them anywhere. bullshit.
    skulkgato
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Yea exactly.. almost every map the very brief "discovery" time frame lasts for about 10 seconds or less imo.
    If that's ruined 5 seconds earlier by my comm... *Shrug* ok.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Khyron wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    Uh, no. Makes so many tactics useless.
    Hm.. I was thinking off the cuff and in response to HeatSurge's solution which seemed fine except for needing to drop meds around a PG under attack. What tactics are you thinking of?

    Say, drop arms lab, drop 2 natural RTs and get out to build arms lab yourself. If I can't pre-drop structures, I should wait for marines to reach RT rooms first. Which pretty much means you can never leave chair.
    Second, if you are rushed and your only CC is focused, and you beacon and you still have res to drop ghost CC somewhere, but you can't because nobody is in that room, and you could have possible saved the day. Say, you had a PG in utility/neck and could drop pipleline, but no, it was empty - no structures, no marines. Relocation is not possible.

    Also, can't pre-spam stuff, when your team is entering hive room:

    In other words, it just adds busywork. Instead of dropping structures here and there before your marines are there, you have to monitor each group and drop structures as soon as they cross virtual room boarder (which is not always clear), or else 'zomg noob comm y u so slow'
    dragonmith
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Posts: 920 mod
    @Ironhorse, setting the medpack/ammo concern aside, you're thinking it advisable at this point to level the playing field by inviting the masses to include nav_debug in normal, daily play (should they so choose)? My first reaction upon reading that is to assume I've somehow misunderstood you (as if, perhaps, you were commenting only on the med/ammo "exploit"), or that I perhaps misunderstand nav_debug's place.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • GeekavengerGeekavenger Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157117Posts: 151 Fully active user
    I just don't see this as that much of a problem.

    The medpack costs Res so it is risk reward for information 5-10 seconds earlier than first contact, and is visible to the ref if you are in competitive match if you want to outlaw it. In a Pub, the added information is not used effectively in the 5 to 10 seconds before first contact revealing the probable alien start anyway, most rookies are still in base trying to buy exos from the armory :-P

    As far as making the nav debug only available through the cheat menu is a viable option, although with most good servers forcing cross spawns and marine starts in other maps being pre-defined that seems kind of unnecessary anyway. Maybe someone could make a server mod to disable the debug exploit, it just doesn't feel important enough for UWE to spend time on at this point.
    System Specs:
    Intel Core i5 650 OC @ 4.1GHz
    Saphire AMD Radeon HD 7770
    8GB DDR3 RAM
    128GB ADATA SSD
    Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit

    My Custom Built Steam Machine: http://pcpartpicker.com/b/Mnm
  • current1ycurrent1y Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Posts: 677 Advanced user
    Is there a trick to telling marine start?
This discussion has been closed.