Exploits for finding enemy team's base (and what to do about it????)

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  • KhyronKhyron Members Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Posts: 498 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    @xen32
    Yup those are all legit points that I should have realised... Thanks for pointing them out. I misread HeatSurge's solution on first pass.. He's suggesting the medpacks simply don't render until they're in LOS. That is a much neater solution.

    Anyway based on ironhorses response, nothing's going to change so not much point wasting time in this thread.
    Spending more time on the forums than in the game. Since build 209.
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  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert TexasMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Posts: 2,829 admin
    edited February 2014
    Is it really that much effort to just file "nav_debug" under "cheats only" commands?

    Okay okay so the medpack thing aside, maybe the first engagement really doesn't make such a huge difference. But remember, the nav_debug can also be used to scout areas later in the game. Sure, you can't tell what exactly you're looking at, but usually you can get a pretty good idea of what's going on... especially if you just happen to notice there's a few holes in the nav mesh around... say... east/west junction where there really shouldn't be any. Thus, marine's sneaky arcing of nano grid is completely blown. The fact that, in this hypothetical scenario, aliens hadn't been checking these areas says to me that indeed marines should be able to get away with this attack, but will be unable to because of some new information that was given to aliens in a way that is not typically available, and is certainly unintended by the developers.

    But I agree with whoever said that commander drops just shouldn't be visible unless you have LOS of them... that's a very intuitive solution. Maybe drops will be invisible, but still able to be spammed if necessary, but building blueprints remain visible wherever? Sounds good to me.

    EDIT: Also, dayuummmmm!!! Never had 29 notifications before!
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Khyron wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.

    It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.

    meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.

    nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.

    Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.

    So a commander cannot pre-place any buildings for marines? They must be in LoS in order for the building to be dropped? What if there is an alien building there under shade that has not yet been scanned? What if he wants to build in base but cannot as the team is out of base at that point and there are no spawners (even if you use LoS of marine buildings, what about building in base that's not in line of sight of a building)?

    Sorry but that is both ridiculous and unworkable. There's no getting away from the fact that if an alien structure is there, you can't place a marine structure there as well. You can't require line of sight from anything, because that will still not work in the event of cloaked structures. Just get used to the fact that marines can choose to spend some of their initial res on intel. Given that the marines move much slower than aliens, this 'advantage' seems somewhat fair anyway. Aliens have more mobility to scout so they're barely disadvantaged at all by not having a comparable method as the medpack drop.
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert TexasMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Posts: 2,829 admin
    edited February 2014
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Khyron wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Hey, it costs res to drop a medpack. It's a trade off... On a 5TP map it could take 2 or 3 packs to get the right hive (assuming all 5TP's are viable starts).
    AurOn2 wrote: »
    on the other hand, that's an extremely good trade.

    It's a bug. The feature that helps you detect what is at a location is called scan.

    meds/ammo drops should only be permitted in rooms where your teammates are or where your buildings are (phase gates in particular). Edit: this goes for dropping ghost structures too.

    nav_debug needs to be restricted to cheats only. Gorges having difficulty placing tunnels should not need to be resolved by using a debug mode.

    Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.

    So a commander cannot pre-place any buildings for marines? They must be in LoS in order for the building to be dropped? What if there is an alien building there under shade that has not yet been scanned? What if he wants to build in base but cannot as the team is out of base at that point and there are no spawners (even if you use LoS of marine buildings, what about building in base that's not in line of sight of a building)?

    Sorry but that is both ridiculous and unworkable. There's no getting away from the fact that if an alien structure is there, you can't place a marine structure there as well. You can't require line of sight from anything, because that will still not work in the event of cloaked structures. Just get used to the fact that marines can choose to spend some of their initial res on intel. Given that the marines move much slower than aliens, this 'advantage' seems somewhat fair anyway. Aliens have more mobility to scout so they're barely disadvantaged at all by not having a comparable method as the medpack drop.

    Yea I'm not sure why ghost structures suddenly popped into the discussion. Where'd that come from???

    I mean... I don't mind that people can check by placing a structure, as the costs them money as well (recycling isn't a full refund... and I kinda wish aliens "poofing" structures did the same, instead of a full refund as it is now).
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Members Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Posts: 148 Fully active user
    current1y wrote: »
    Is there a trick to telling marine start?

    Yes sacrifice a 8 res drifter to scout all tech points.

    Wait ....spending res to scout too op. Nerf drifters ability to see buildings pls.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited February 2014
    Wyzcrak wrote: »
    @Ironhorse, setting the medpack/ammo concern aside, you're thinking it advisable at this point to level the playing field by inviting the masses to include nav_debug in normal, daily play (should they so choose)? My first reaction upon reading that is to assume I've somehow misunderstood you (as if, perhaps, you were commenting only on the med/ammo "exploit"), or that I perhaps misunderstand nav_debug's place.
    I don't think it should be invited to normal play such as a tool tip, per se, due to its natural intended debug use it's not very user friendly... but for "pro tips"... yea i think it should be.
    Its better than just a select few knowing about it - secret and undocumented knowledge should never provide an advantage, ideally - and honestly the impact is so minimal in those first few seconds of a round for reasons already covered.*

    Besides nav_debug being useful in determining WHY your stupid arc or drifter just got stuck or why your gorge tunnel won't drop precisely right there...
    It's also not the only Tres/Pres free means of determining enemy positions.. sooo I have a hard time advocating for any change considering the large array of options to determine this.

    *Beyond those first few "discovery" seconds of a round, there is the obvious and worth noting occurrence that any decent semi aware player or team are already privy to the enemy's position on the map, or at a very minimum aware of the high probability of them being there. The time it takes to asses this by using nav_debug is almost more than using some of the other freely available means.

    Would i like all of these issues to be fixed once and for all? Sure.
    Do i think it's going to happen, let alone stay fixed? Nope.
    So you might as well give everyone access to the toys.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    meatmachine
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    @blarney_stone
    And that goes for the rest of the round too.
    Can't recall how often i say to my commander "I bet they dropped a hive already at X.."
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • WyzcrakWyzcrak Pot Pie Aficionado Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2002-12-04 Member: 10447Posts: 920 mod
    @IronHorse I can appreciate the "not enough resources" DEV response to seemingly-"undesigned" and arguably tolerable gameplay experiences.
    TGNS Portal | NS2 side-by-side game viewer
    IronHorse wrote: »
    TG's win or lose mod that replaces the concede function is the best of both worlds and should be official.
  • ruprechtruprecht Members Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184022Posts: 40 Fully active user
    recycling blueprint RT costs 2 res.
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Posts: 289 Advanced user
    Ok I think we should increase the cost of med packs to 5 res... that should keep marine commanders from using this clear exploit to gain the advantage. :P
    AurOn2skulkgato
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    Been in the game since ns1. Only impacts higher level play, hard to implement a viable solution.

    Don't see the big deal.

    Tell a pub server where the aliens start, they won't even know what to do with that information.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
    AurOn2DecoyskulkgatoBlarney_Stone
  • OscarTheCouchOscarTheCouch Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34647Posts: 142 Advanced user
    So i just type in nav_debug and i know exactly where all marine structures are?
    twitch.tv/Kalost_tpf
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! AustraliaMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Posts: 2,130 mod
    edited February 2014
    current1y wrote: »
    Is there a trick to telling marine start?
    @current1y 'fraid not. unless you're playing veil, caged, eclipse, Docking (sort of), jambi etc. :)
    @Side1Bu2Rnz9 Gg marines. no more med support. gg


    Send me a private message if you need me to kill someone "help" with anything.

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  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    So i just type in nav_debug and i know exactly where all marine structures are?

    Pretty much. Only if you are commanding and look directly at the structure location though, it doesn't show on the map. You also need to guess what the structure is because all you are going to see is a vaguely circular red shape.

    You might also be able to see cloaked structures from the ground but I haven't tried that yet.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 4,269 Advanced user
    Well, on a lot of maps, the Marines have a fixed spawn, so that is easy enough, otherwise with alien speed on a map like summit it is first contact that gives it away.
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  • OscarTheCouchOscarTheCouch Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34647Posts: 142 Advanced user
    So kinda like the old alien infesation where you could see everything. That was OP and removed. Not sure why something like this is available to everyone without cheats on.
    twitch.tv/Kalost_tpf
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    Because its not like that all.
    You don't get to see where enemy players are walking on your map. That's a huge difference.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    Decoy
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in KodiakMembers, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Posts: 4,771 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    I played with this last night. I could not see how this would be an huge advantage.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
  • OscarTheCouchOscarTheCouch Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2005-01-10 Member: 34647Posts: 142 Advanced user
    edited February 2014
    Where there are structures there is likely marines......
    Maybe its not that bad but i know i wont be using it and never have.
    twitch.tv/Kalost_tpf
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    ns2isgood wrote: »
    I don't mind the med drop trick, it's just a discounted scan.
    Except you can't scan on the start of the round (before you've built an obs), which is when the medpack trick is most relevant.
    Khyron wrote: »
    Waypoints might as well be removed from the game.
    At least from IPs, yes. Waypoints on robo factories are (mildly) useful.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited February 2014
    @elodea
    elodea wrote: »
    The question i'd like to ask is why is it being defended as needing to be outside cheats 1?
    As clearly stated already: Because its not the only means or method, there's a plethora of these exploits/tricks and despite attempts to fix them they continue to return for over the course of years. Most are reported already in our system.

    So okay, sure.. we make nav mesh cheats only (which I am not opposed to obviously)... now what about the 5 other means, hmm?

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @elodea
    elodea wrote: »
    The question i'd like to ask is why is it being defended as needing to be outside cheats 1?
    As clearly stated already: Because its not the only means or method, there's a plethora of these exploits/tricks and despite attempts to fix them they continue to return for over the course of years. Most are reported already in our system.

    So okay, sure.. we make nav mesh cheats only (which I am not opposed to obviously)... now what about the 5 other means, hmm?
    with all respect, what kind of retarded question is that? Not trying to say you're retarded personally, but that is one hell of a stupid question.

    Put the dev commands behind dev 1 or cheats 1. How hard is that not to understand? It's not that I really give a crap about these overall insignificant issues as much as i do about the aura of incompetence this reeks in regards to 101 making sure a game is polished.

    *Seriously, these are simple jobs even I can do with almost no lua programming knowledge in like 5 minutes tops. That you are even coming down on the other side of these issues is severely off putting.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
    d0ped0g_Revilo_
  • BentRingBentRing Members Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Posts: 397
    It seems to me that the nav_debug issue being an exploit is much more related to times it's used during the game rather than as a base finder. I would also like to see it put on dev or cheats or at least make it only show in commander view with line of sight of existing structures that use it to navigate the map.
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  • xDragonxDragon Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    FYI the alien comm can find marine start just as easily...

    And there really is no reason to change nav_debug to a cheats only command, especially when there a multiple other non cheat/dev level commands that can have a much greater impact. Sure its a 'dev' command but IMO its more similar to debugspeed or net_stats than other dev commands. (as a side note, debugspeed should be non-cheats).
    IronHorse
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,786 Fully active user
    edited February 2014
    xDragon wrote: »
    FYI the alien comm can find marine start just as easily...

    And there really is no reason to change nav_debug to a cheats only command, especially when there a multiple other non cheat/dev level commands that can have a much greater impact. Sure its a 'dev' command but IMO its more similar to debugspeed or net_stats than other dev commands. (as a side note, debugspeed should be non-cheats).
    I agree that debugspeed should be non-cheat. But i would rather UWE show some consistency and logic.

    Being able to type nav_debug straight out of the box for a new player is just a bit weird. I mean just from the viewpoint of not making a half assed product you're trying to sell for money. I would not lump it together with net_Stats and debugspeed. Like i said, i couldn't give a crap either way about the actual nav_debug issue as much as the lack of interest there seems to be in making sure there's a certain level of polish and consistency throughout the game.

    As for the other non cheat/dev commands. Glad to hear that there are still many out there that have even greater impact. Well done UWE well done. And a big thankyou to ironhorse for opening up that whole other can of worms on the public forums.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
    OscarTheCouch
  • xDragonxDragon Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,954 Fully active user
    99% of the playerbase probably never opens the console... that's really not a reason to disable an in-game command that players can type in themselves... its not like an accidental keybind they might hit. I generally prefer games that leave in potential debugging/troubleshooting commands (like source) as it can be helpful when problems are encountered (and lets be honest, every single game has bugs).

    When I say greater impact, I mean that they would be more disruptive for a new player entering them (since that's what you seemed to be noting as the main issue?).. I understand greater consistency regarding console command structure, but honestly its such an insignificant issue that the entire tone of everything you said baffles me... I mean I'm usually quick to be a **** and that attitude surprises even me...
  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    I don't follow the logic that since there are other commands that provide the same or even more information that also aren't behind a cheats flag, it's OK to leave this one, and then the others too.

    Surely all of them should be put behind a cheat flag then?!
    OscarTheCouchVetinari
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