You can't prove that he didn't cheat during an actual match, either. That's the issue.
Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.
But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.
A more apt analogy is justifiable homocide. He committed homocide (in this analogy, anyway ;p), and he has to show it was justifiable. You're not proving him guilty, he's proving himself to be justified in the use. Given that he didn't tell anyone he was doing this until he was vac banned, his only defense is his well known ability and his occasional streaming. Neither of which disqualify his use of a wallhack, but do mitigate it, again IMO. Thus, I feel the compromise was rather fair.
Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.
I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.
But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.
He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.
I think the entire idea of having people like Wasabi and Zefram organize such an event is patently absurd, considering that they are closely associated with one particular competitive team. That being said, I did hope that they would at least make an effort not to be horribly biased. And now we learn that they are enforcing one of their rules in an attempt to force players to remain on Titus. Oh well, I suppose disappointment is just the norm with this event.
I truly feel for anyone who bought into the Hugh and Wasabi hype train and gave money to this tire fire. I wish there was a way for you to get your money back. The NS2WC admins clearly don't deserve it.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Moved thread to competitive forums because this is not a general discussion topic, as its solely about a competitive community event and issues within it.
On a more related note, glad to see some of the issues that were brought up are being somewhat(?) addressed.
@santaclaws
I really dont want any part in this discussion, but i have to point out that your analogy is severely inadequate.
Its more akin to a traffic camera that catches your car doing something it shouldn't - some automated system which is blind from all circumstantial factors.
In which case, its up to the person who is ticketed to produce evidence of said "extenuating circumstance" - i.e. the burden is in fact on the person, due to the automated system.
I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.
You can bet all you want, but you're just speculating now, and frankly wether you think we're hypocrits or not is irrelevant. But I will still defend myself and say, that if a lower div player, who had been in the scene with a long standing reputation like Eissfield, and had been livestreaming for months, then I'd defend him just the same. Sure there would be cases where a less well known player might be wrongfully convicted because of lack of evidence. All I ask is, when we have this amount of evidence as we do in this case, we should investigate it accordingly. When the accusers are not giving us anything to investigate, well then his reputation should count for something.
He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.
Again, you guys attempt to shift the burden of proof. You're the ones accusing Eissfeldt of cheating, you should be the ones aiming to prove that he's guilty. The VAC ban is not an indication of a cheater at all. Yes, it means you've had cheats on your computer, but that is ALL you can determine from that fact. Nothing else can be derived from it. You can't even be sure he has cheated in ns2! And when you have a case like this, where you don't have a single suspecious match, then that fact is completely irrelevant. Especially if Eissfeldt is streaming all the qualifying matches anyway.
I am, admittedly, suprised to see these issues being discussed reasonably and without much overt flaming.
However, I personally think it's pretty obvious that we have a fairly easy-to-see reality ongoing that nobody (directly) stated.
From Team Titus' steam page:
Official Team Organizer: "Zefram"
Official Team Sponsor: "WasabiOne"
Members of Titus Attempting to Leave to join new team formed by Bitey:
Locklear
rLine
Total Members on Titus' Roster: 8. (Including Zefram, who doesn't play)
The rule hasn't changed because it would negatively effect the 'home team' of the event leadership. This is plain as day.
Why the absolute head leadership of the leagues and organization is authorized to be a bench-boy on one of the top teams i'll never understand either (as this just screams corruption and scandal from the onset to any sane human being), but with a small community i understand volunteering is important and cheers to you Zefram for putting so much work into the game and community.
Regarding Eiss: I've heard alot about the Eiss situation over the last week or so, and I've got to say it's really sad to hear it all, because Eiss has always been a very nice guy and a very good player (cheating or not). However, VAC is the authority and if we don't hold any weight on VAC bans, what do we hold weight to? I thoroughly 'believe' Eiss probably doesn't cheat on a regular basis, or use them in scrims (As if you aren't bad, you can more or less tell when someone is cheating anyways), but as an organization and community you can't simply let someone have "Cheats on their computer to catch other cheaters". That is such a slippery slope that it's silly to even go down that road. I think as unfortunate as it is, Eiss is kind of getting what you get when you download cheats. There is no reason for which to have them, whether 'Using them' or not; and as a community I think it's even sillier to consider NOT putting any stock in VAC Bans... it sort of eliminates the whole idea of the VAC ban to begin with, doesn't it?
If we're all going to praise ourselves on our honesty and endeavors of fairness, why don't we just speak truthfully?
@santaclaws
I really dont want any part in this discussion, but i have to point out that your analogy is severely inadequate.
Its more akin to a traffic camera that catches your car doing something it shouldn't - some automated system which is blind from all circumstantial factors.
In which case, its up to the person who is ticketed to produce evidence of said "extenuating circumstance" - i.e. the burden is in fact on the person, due to the automated system.
That is a fair point, I even gave you an agree. I'd argue however, that Eissfeldt has already done so. He explained the circumstances sufficiently as far as I'm concerned.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
@santaclaws
I think that Eiss' reputation definitely counts for something, and yea he has verbally explained.. but:
A court would ask for evidence of said circumstance - a phone call, a transcript, a Dr.'s note - something.. and if it could not be procured then it would solely be up to the judge to make the determination of their innocence ... often taking into account their reputation / past. (I'm surprised no friend /witness backed up Eiss publicly? "Yea he told me minutes before that he was using it for that purpose")
Unfortunately, where my analogy ceases to be useful is when considering how the judge would not use this case to set an example, in real life, due to the size of the community (in comparison to NS2's.. )
So @coltcolt 's point of where to draw the line / should an example be set where we just trust the word of an individual every single time, definitely comes into play..
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@bluesroo I assume as much, but thats the whole point. Getting informed as to the why. (note that the 18y rule in no possible way effects me, I just noticed it and am aware the community has lower then 18y players also)
As for starting the topic.. That was a good thing, not a bad thing. Steam chat informs one person. Then that person has to relay all the info as much and correct as possible. Information posted here is open and visible for all ns2 players on the planet. It is a community event. I would argue they should only have talked about this in these topics when the questions were asked.
Although in my eyes far to late, posts like @WasabiOne has made are infact what we were asking for and what was needed right from the start. Rules could have been posted and discussed during the funding phase.
Explenations of various rules could have been given.
Post like the ones Zef made help the situation not in the slightest and only fan the flames.
I shall not put any blaim for why the rules were chosen atm, if I agree with them or not. Even in disagree I can see the logic and points in the explanation Wasabione gave.
I do put blaim in the poor flow, or lack thereof, of information & the pointing to the community. The community was not at fault in any of this, and saying otherwise is only fanning more flames.
I have a slight hope that information will from now on be complete and a lot faster about this entire event. Time shall tell.
I shall again complement Fana, Hugh and wasabi with atleast putting forth some information when it finally got posted.
Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.
I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.
But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.
He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.
When I used to play tf2, players would get 1+ year bans from all competitive play just for having a VAC ban on their steamid. The ban could be revoked if the player in question could successfully join a VAC enabled server. Evidence bans were pretty much permanent. Eissfeldt should be stoked that hes allowed to participate at all.
Who am I kidding, hes my brothers wifes cousins partner, he would never hack. admins pls unban.
I think the entire idea of having people like Wasabi and Zefram organize such an event is patently absurd, considering that they are closely associated with one particular competitive team. That being said, I did hope that they would at least make an effort not to be horribly biased. And now we learn that they are enforcing one of their rules in an attempt to force players to remain on Titus. Oh well, I suppose disappointment is just the norm with this event.
I truly feel for anyone who bought into the Hugh and Wasabi hype train and gave money to this tire fire. I wish there was a way for you to get your money back. The NS2WC admins clearly don't deserve it.
You could always do it. And what you said about them enforcing rules in order to favor Titus is blatantly retarded. You should be ashamed of yourself.
The event is for the players, 90% of players agree on Fana's post, the players are being ignored up until NS2WC team is publically shamed. Tell me again why we are playing in this?
Oh thats right, there is money involved. You take the money away boys, no one would be playing in this farce. The real World Cup was played in NSL S3.
@Strayan / Hugh; If your going to comment on the eissfelt VAC ban at-least find out what happened. Your comment just makes you look stupid and very uninformed which voids any potentially good point you might have had.
Members of Titus Attempting to Leave to join new team formed by Bitey:
Locklear
rLine
Total Members on Titus' Roster: 8. (Including Zefram, who doesn't play)
The rule hasn't changed because it would negatively effect the 'home team' of the event leadership. This is plain as day.
Why the absolute head leadership of the leagues and organization is authorized to be a bench-boy on one of the top teams i'll never understand either (as this just screams corruption and scandal from the onset to any sane human being), but with a small community i understand volunteering is important and cheers to you Zefram for putting so much work into the game and community.
Word is that the rule was changed to unlock teams or was in talks to be changed. I don't know for sure either way, though.
I'm sure if there were anyone left in the NS2 community that hasn't been absolutely putoff by this community's treatment of its volunteers, then you could find admins who weren't Zefram/Wasabi. But you can't, because every single time anyone does anything for this community the community spends the next month(s) shitting on them. Since I've stepped back from the game, it is really quite a sight to behold. The competitive community has, at every turn, been a total douche toward the people working for them. And I'm disappointed to have done my part in it. From Flayra to Sewlek and Hugh to Swalk to Wasabi. Just thread after thread of crying and rarely any gratitude.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited December 2013
Whether they're Titus members or not, and whatever internal drama is going on there doesn't really matter. The point is that some members left to make a new team and the rules of the WC aren't compatible with the result. New players can't replace those that quit, nor can a new team be created consisting of a previous teams members. This is clearly a problem. The fact that the members are from Titus should of been irrelevant.
Before this thread and before there were any rule changes, I think there were some quiet rule exceptions being handed out in direct contradiction to the official ruleset to deal with the situation which just lead to confusion and some of the bias commentary.
It's nice that the rules were changed a day before the deadline. Although I think rosters should be completely unlocked and the deadline extended 2-3 more days to compensate, if possible.
Anyway this draws me to my final point and suggestion which is that the NSL, given the leadership consists of low tier players and individuals that have far too much affiliation with UWE, should be ditched by the players in favour of a new organisation. Clearly the cancer is too far gone to save it and instead it should be viewed as a series of lessons learnt for the new organisation that should be headed by high level comp players or at least those with a good attitude and affiliation with the actual community.
Just to make it crystal clear and avoid further confusion, the NSL is not organising this event and has no say in how things get run at NS2WC.
3. this rule has been removed and teams are welcome to bring any members of their roster. however, travel and housing can and will only be given to six of those players. any additional expenses will be the teams responsibility. 4. this rule has been amended, players that join a roster are locked into the team and may not switch rosters, however any player that is not already registered with a team may join an already submitted roster if the team captain and player notify the ns2wc admin team.
This is good news, although I wish you had gone all the way and allowed free roster movement. As you can see, people are having a field day speculating on why you haven't, and it looks pretty bad to the casual observer. I encourage you to be more transparent with your decision making process in the future, and at least reconsider the Eissfeldt ban at a time when cooler heads may prevail.
I am very sorry that I had to make this thread. I would've much preferred that this was solved in a cleaner manner, but I saw no other way.
Moved thread to competitive forums because this is not a general discussion topic, as its solely about a competitive community event and issues within it.
I can't agree with this. How this tournament is run is highly relevant to the people who paid for it, and many of those people never visit the competitive forums. I would ask that you move it back to the general forums. When you move things around like this, or god forbid lock it like what happened to the eissfeldt ban discussion thread, it makes people question your motives -- it looks like you're trying to hide the discussion.
I'm sure if there were anyone left in the NS2 community that hasn't been absolutely putoff by this community's treatment of its volunteers, then you could find admins who weren't Zefram/Wasabi. But you can't, because every single time anyone does anything for this community the community spends the next month(s) shitting on them. Since I've stepped back from the game, it is really quite a sight to behold. The competitive community has, at every turn, been a total douche toward the people working for them. And I'm disappointed to have done my part in it. From Flayra to Sewlek and Hugh to Swalk to Wasabi. Just thread after thread of crying and rarely any gratitude.
This is entirely true.
People like Wasabi, Zefram, Hugh and others put alot of time into NS2 and create things/events/etc (like the NS2WC) that if they didn't, nobody would. As I said, cheers to the volunteers and people who make the game what it is and put their time into the game in off-hours to make it better. However, that doesn't give free-ticket and excuse to silliness like restricting movement of players and incredibly controversial / obfuscated rules that serve no discernable purpose except to benefit specific teams and screw others over.
I agree 100% about the rules. I really feel sad for the 5 players left out of the competition by not allowing Locklear to play. It’s even worse that Locklear is stuck in a team he just tried to step away from. I would rather see that rule changed and a welcome a new team into the tournament than see 6 players left with nothing.
About VAC bans - I would have expected admins were up to date with how little VAC bans affect the competitive community in other games. There are plenty of VAC banned players in the top tiers in other games including Counter-Strike. Here is an example:
Please note this player is even sponsored with an active VAC ban on him.
What players do on their spare time has no meaning to the tournaments. We have almost every game recorded on stream and if Eiss was cheating anyone should be able to gather proof against him. But we have still not seen any evidence (even after the VAC ban) that he has cheated during a match. Meaning he was made guilty without any proof.
You can say that Eissfeldt might have lied about his story but at the same time he might have been telling the truth. For that reason the VAC ban has no weight behind it and can not be used as evidence for a cheater.
I put tons of hours into all the stuff used in competitive matches, NSL maps, cross spawns, spectator lights (for casters!!), custom HUD, not sure if I forgot something. I also worked on summit since build 204. All this in my free time. Is this where I can pretend to be more important than anyone else for doing what I do for free?
Intentions or payment (or lack of thereof) are not relevant to how well run or done something is. The rules/decisions are either good or bad.
If I did a shit job I'd fully expect to receive an onslaught of shit and I wouldn't be surprised. In fact I got tons of shit for the NSL maps in the beginning, and here we are today...
I am very sorry that I had to make this thread. I would've much preferred that this was solved in a cleaner manner, but I saw no other way.
This is complete and utter bullsh*t - and I'm calling you out on it. You had one conversation with Wasabi, and it didn't go your way or you didn't get the answer that you wanted. So, in high and mighty Fana fashion, you drag it onto the forums and ignite more drama than these guys need to deal with.
You saw no other way? Are you that dense? You know that Wasabi isn't the only admin, right? When you didn't get your way with Wasabi, nothing in that brain of yours thought "Hmm, I should try to meet with all the admins and discuss it in a civil way - maybe even get their side of the story before I blow this up on the forums." No - of course not.
So, yes, Fana - there was another way. You are either extremely selfish or you are doing your best to see this effort fail; which is completely unfair to the guys pouring hours and hours to try to get this off the ground. All you've done was show how much you thrive on creating drama and sticking your nose into everyone's business. Don't give me that 'holier-than-thou' veil - it's extremely thin and people can see right through it.
Belli, what exactly is your problem with a -public discussion- regarding a problem that affects the -public-? I don't see any "drama" but a very well thought out and reasonable argumentation. In fact, even Wasabi and Hugh see it like this and said "Thanks" to Fana.
I'm not related to any of the teams, not playing competitively, but I donated and want to see a good, fair and well made tournament. From what I read so far, the points Fana made are absolutely valid in my humble opinion. To be honest I'm quite shocked about the obvious and dilettante misdetermination that have been made so far, and their (possible) motivations. If those misdetermination are not corrected very soon and completely, they will seriously temper my experience of the tournament.
SantaClaws, I don't know if your guy is guilty or not, but I hope you are not a lawyer, because by using obvious logical fallacies, you are doing more harm than good to your "client". What Ironhorse wrote is absolutely true - once you are caught with evidence against you, it's up to you to explain your innocence, otherwise you will be found guilty, there is no "burden of proof" anymore, because such proof was presented in the form of said evidence (in this case, being caught by VAC), which is an act that is clearly defined as a transgression, and everybody understands and accepts it. You can argue that there were other circumstances that put what he did into different light, but the burden is on you once conclusive evidence is presented.
Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything. I understand all the emotions and such, but those words have their defined meaning.
Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013."
@Kamamura
But you're no lawyer either I hope? As long as you can't proof that he did use a cheat to gain an unfair advantage in an actual match, in my opinion he is not guilty. If you simply say "He installed cheats, so he is a cheater." then you don't regard all the circumstances and arguments.
I find it kinda said how some people of this community deal with renowned veterans.
I need more popcorns, please Bellicose bring it on!
This event was failure when scheduling times came out. Better use 2 teams in cologne if the money is biggest problem like it usually are and organize better dates. I just think that this was too big fish to take
Godar ban well there could be a reason to ban or it was a just silly mistake, but hey hugh said VAC doesn't make mistakes!! Sorry but you don't have no idea, better make demotools to prevent these problems, but that isn't possible..
Strict rules to help to play the best possible time and hope that everyone could play or wanna Well some teams could like that and zefram knows this (He likes that his own team could have taken forfeits on last NSL season and he is NSL league admin!, but thanks to bitey you are the man) well everybody loves that wasabi have invisible titus flag when streaming (ofc its reasonable to cheer own country players no hard feelings)
Sorry for negative post but Bellicose is right and we can't talk about it because it's community event and the non competitive players (like who wanted to see great event and give more hope to the game) who donated this event aren't allowed to see these accusations.
For those that are confused by these reactions to the rules (which seems to be more people here than I expected), this was sold as and expected to be a community tournament for the community... not some super serious tournament for money. However the rules of this tournament are more restricting than even top level tournaments, its just not logical. There are players on top CS teams with VAC bans on their accounts, and they are allowed to play in tournaments without questions.
Most of these events have always been met with criticism because of the organizers lack of understanding of how competitive gaming works... Trying to organize these events and bill them as 'professional esports' when you have almost 0 understanding of how such events are run doesn't make much sense, and was obvious given how previous events were run. Would those events have been presented much more casually (like this one was initially), I suspect few would have even mentioned those issues. Ironically this event which was supposed to be the 'community' event is way more restricting than any of the previous 'esports' events.
@Kamamura - I'm not a lawyer, thank god for that, I'd bore myself to death. But let me just be clear, I have nothing invested in Eissfeldt what so ever, I have never spoken to the man. I have briefly played with him on publics before, but I sincerely doubt that he'd even recall me. So he's not "my guy".
As I wrote in my reply to ironhorse, I agreed with his analogy - however, Eissfeldt has already accounted for the VAC ban. It is up to the accusers to prove that he has used the software to cheat. The only thing we can conclude from the VAC ban, is that he had cheats installed. We cannot derive anything else.
"(in this case, being caught by VAC), which is an act that is clearly defined as a transgression, and everybody understands and accepts it."
Wrong. Nobody accepts VAC as evidence for a cheater - as others have already pointed out, there are plenty of pro gamers with VAC bans in other e-sports. And the reason is, the use of hacks is a widely used tool to spot cheaters, always has been. To catch a cheater, you have to understand the cheater. So the VAC cannot be used as evidence for anything other than that Eissfeldt had cheats on his computer (btw, not even necessarily for ns2).
"Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything"
'not guilty' is not the same as 'innocent'. Just like 'not innocent' does not mean 'guilty'. The binary states are 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.
"Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013.""
Eissfeldt's case is different because he has a long standing good reputation with his rivals. Non of his opponents have accused him of cheats, infact they've come out to defend him in spite of the VAC ban. He has several hours of footage of him playing his scrims over several months. So we actually have positive evidence that exhonorates him, along with a massive lack of evidence against him, since there's not even been a fucking match to analyze or investigate.
Comments
A more apt analogy is justifiable homocide. He committed homocide (in this analogy, anyway ;p), and he has to show it was justifiable. You're not proving him guilty, he's proving himself to be justified in the use. Given that he didn't tell anyone he was doing this until he was vac banned, his only defense is his well known ability and his occasional streaming. Neither of which disqualify his use of a wallhack, but do mitigate it, again IMO. Thus, I feel the compromise was rather fair.
I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.
He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.
I truly feel for anyone who bought into the Hugh and Wasabi hype train and gave money to this tire fire. I wish there was a way for you to get your money back. The NS2WC admins clearly don't deserve it.
On a more related note, glad to see some of the issues that were brought up are being somewhat(?) addressed.
@santaclaws
I really dont want any part in this discussion, but i have to point out that your analogy is severely inadequate.
Its more akin to a traffic camera that catches your car doing something it shouldn't - some automated system which is blind from all circumstantial factors.
In which case, its up to the person who is ticketed to produce evidence of said "extenuating circumstance" - i.e. the burden is in fact on the person, due to the automated system.
You can bet all you want, but you're just speculating now, and frankly wether you think we're hypocrits or not is irrelevant. But I will still defend myself and say, that if a lower div player, who had been in the scene with a long standing reputation like Eissfield, and had been livestreaming for months, then I'd defend him just the same. Sure there would be cases where a less well known player might be wrongfully convicted because of lack of evidence. All I ask is, when we have this amount of evidence as we do in this case, we should investigate it accordingly. When the accusers are not giving us anything to investigate, well then his reputation should count for something.
Again, you guys attempt to shift the burden of proof. You're the ones accusing Eissfeldt of cheating, you should be the ones aiming to prove that he's guilty. The VAC ban is not an indication of a cheater at all. Yes, it means you've had cheats on your computer, but that is ALL you can determine from that fact. Nothing else can be derived from it. You can't even be sure he has cheated in ns2! And when you have a case like this, where you don't have a single suspecious match, then that fact is completely irrelevant. Especially if Eissfeldt is streaming all the qualifying matches anyway.
I am, admittedly, suprised to see these issues being discussed reasonably and without much overt flaming.
However, I personally think it's pretty obvious that we have a fairly easy-to-see reality ongoing that nobody (directly) stated.
From Team Titus' steam page:
Official Team Organizer: "Zefram"
Official Team Sponsor: "WasabiOne"
Members of Titus Attempting to Leave to join new team formed by Bitey:
Locklear
rLine
Total Members on Titus' Roster: 8. (Including Zefram, who doesn't play)
The rule hasn't changed because it would negatively effect the 'home team' of the event leadership. This is plain as day.
Why the absolute head leadership of the leagues and organization is authorized to be a bench-boy on one of the top teams i'll never understand either (as this just screams corruption and scandal from the onset to any sane human being), but with a small community i understand volunteering is important and cheers to you Zefram for putting so much work into the game and community.
Regarding Eiss: I've heard alot about the Eiss situation over the last week or so, and I've got to say it's really sad to hear it all, because Eiss has always been a very nice guy and a very good player (cheating or not). However, VAC is the authority and if we don't hold any weight on VAC bans, what do we hold weight to? I thoroughly 'believe' Eiss probably doesn't cheat on a regular basis, or use them in scrims (As if you aren't bad, you can more or less tell when someone is cheating anyways), but as an organization and community you can't simply let someone have "Cheats on their computer to catch other cheaters". That is such a slippery slope that it's silly to even go down that road. I think as unfortunate as it is, Eiss is kind of getting what you get when you download cheats. There is no reason for which to have them, whether 'Using them' or not; and as a community I think it's even sillier to consider NOT putting any stock in VAC Bans... it sort of eliminates the whole idea of the VAC ban to begin with, doesn't it?
If we're all going to praise ourselves on our honesty and endeavors of fairness, why don't we just speak truthfully?
That is a fair point, I even gave you an agree. I'd argue however, that Eissfeldt has already done so. He explained the circumstances sufficiently as far as I'm concerned.
I think that Eiss' reputation definitely counts for something, and yea he has verbally explained.. but:
A court would ask for evidence of said circumstance - a phone call, a transcript, a Dr.'s note - something.. and if it could not be procured then it would solely be up to the judge to make the determination of their innocence ... often taking into account their reputation / past. (I'm surprised no friend /witness backed up Eiss publicly? "Yea he told me minutes before that he was using it for that purpose")
Unfortunately, where my analogy ceases to be useful is when considering how the judge would not use this case to set an example, in real life, due to the size of the community (in comparison to NS2's.. )
So @coltcolt 's point of where to draw the line / should an example be set where we just trust the word of an individual every single time, definitely comes into play..
As for starting the topic.. That was a good thing, not a bad thing. Steam chat informs one person. Then that person has to relay all the info as much and correct as possible. Information posted here is open and visible for all ns2 players on the planet. It is a community event. I would argue they should only have talked about this in these topics when the questions were asked.
Although in my eyes far to late, posts like @WasabiOne has made are infact what we were asking for and what was needed right from the start. Rules could have been posted and discussed during the funding phase.
Explenations of various rules could have been given.
Post like the ones Zef made help the situation not in the slightest and only fan the flames.
I shall not put any blaim for why the rules were chosen atm, if I agree with them or not. Even in disagree I can see the logic and points in the explanation Wasabione gave.
I do put blaim in the poor flow, or lack thereof, of information & the pointing to the community. The community was not at fault in any of this, and saying otherwise is only fanning more flames.
I have a slight hope that information will from now on be complete and a lot faster about this entire event. Time shall tell.
I shall again complement Fana, Hugh and wasabi with atleast putting forth some information when it finally got posted.
I hope to see more improvement on this all soon.
When I used to play tf2, players would get 1+ year bans from all competitive play just for having a VAC ban on their steamid. The ban could be revoked if the player in question could successfully join a VAC enabled server. Evidence bans were pretty much permanent. Eissfeldt should be stoked that hes allowed to participate at all.
Who am I kidding, hes my brothers wifes cousins partner, he would never hack. admins pls unban.
You could always do it. And what you said about them enforcing rules in order to favor Titus is blatantly retarded. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Oh thats right, there is money involved. You take the money away boys, no one would be playing in this farce. The real World Cup was played in NSL S3.
@Strayan / Hugh; If your going to comment on the eissfelt VAC ban at-least find out what happened. Your comment just makes you look stupid and very uninformed which voids any potentially good point you might have had.
Word is that the rule was changed to unlock teams or was in talks to be changed. I don't know for sure either way, though.
I'm sure if there were anyone left in the NS2 community that hasn't been absolutely putoff by this community's treatment of its volunteers, then you could find admins who weren't Zefram/Wasabi. But you can't, because every single time anyone does anything for this community the community spends the next month(s) shitting on them. Since I've stepped back from the game, it is really quite a sight to behold. The competitive community has, at every turn, been a total douche toward the people working for them. And I'm disappointed to have done my part in it. From Flayra to Sewlek and Hugh to Swalk to Wasabi. Just thread after thread of crying and rarely any gratitude.
Before this thread and before there were any rule changes, I think there were some quiet rule exceptions being handed out in direct contradiction to the official ruleset to deal with the situation which just lead to confusion and some of the bias commentary.
It's nice that the rules were changed a day before the deadline. Although I think rosters should be completely unlocked and the deadline extended 2-3 more days to compensate, if possible.
Just to make it crystal clear and avoid further confusion, the NSL is not organising this event and has no say in how things get run at NS2WC.
I am very sorry that I had to make this thread. I would've much preferred that this was solved in a cleaner manner, but I saw no other way.
I can't agree with this. How this tournament is run is highly relevant to the people who paid for it, and many of those people never visit the competitive forums. I would ask that you move it back to the general forums. When you move things around like this, or god forbid lock it like what happened to the eissfeldt ban discussion thread, it makes people question your motives -- it looks like you're trying to hide the discussion.
This is entirely true.
People like Wasabi, Zefram, Hugh and others put alot of time into NS2 and create things/events/etc (like the NS2WC) that if they didn't, nobody would. As I said, cheers to the volunteers and people who make the game what it is and put their time into the game in off-hours to make it better. However, that doesn't give free-ticket and excuse to silliness like restricting movement of players and incredibly controversial / obfuscated rules that serve no discernable purpose except to benefit specific teams and screw others over.
About VAC bans - I would have expected admins were up to date with how little VAC bans affect the competitive community in other games. There are plenty of VAC banned players in the top tiers in other games including Counter-Strike. Here is an example:
http://www.complexitygaming.com/rosters/27/
http://www.steamid.co.uk/profile/76561197960284752
Please note this player is even sponsored with an active VAC ban on him.
What players do on their spare time has no meaning to the tournaments. We have almost every game recorded on stream and if Eiss was cheating anyone should be able to gather proof against him. But we have still not seen any evidence (even after the VAC ban) that he has cheated during a match. Meaning he was made guilty without any proof.
You can say that Eissfeldt might have lied about his story but at the same time he might have been telling the truth. For that reason the VAC ban has no weight behind it and can not be used as evidence for a cheater.
Intentions or payment (or lack of thereof) are not relevant to how well run or done something is. The rules/decisions are either good or bad.
If I did a shit job I'd fully expect to receive an onslaught of shit and I wouldn't be surprised. In fact I got tons of shit for the NSL maps in the beginning, and here we are today...
This is complete and utter bullsh*t - and I'm calling you out on it. You had one conversation with Wasabi, and it didn't go your way or you didn't get the answer that you wanted. So, in high and mighty Fana fashion, you drag it onto the forums and ignite more drama than these guys need to deal with.
You saw no other way? Are you that dense? You know that Wasabi isn't the only admin, right? When you didn't get your way with Wasabi, nothing in that brain of yours thought "Hmm, I should try to meet with all the admins and discuss it in a civil way - maybe even get their side of the story before I blow this up on the forums." No - of course not.
So, yes, Fana - there was another way. You are either extremely selfish or you are doing your best to see this effort fail; which is completely unfair to the guys pouring hours and hours to try to get this off the ground. All you've done was show how much you thrive on creating drama and sticking your nose into everyone's business. Don't give me that 'holier-than-thou' veil - it's extremely thin and people can see right through it.
I'm not related to any of the teams, not playing competitively, but I donated and want to see a good, fair and well made tournament. From what I read so far, the points Fana made are absolutely valid in my humble opinion. To be honest I'm quite shocked about the obvious and dilettante misdetermination that have been made so far, and their (possible) motivations. If those misdetermination are not corrected very soon and completely, they will seriously temper my experience of the tournament.
Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything. I understand all the emotions and such, but those words have their defined meaning.
Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013."
But you're no lawyer either I hope? As long as you can't proof that he did use a cheat to gain an unfair advantage in an actual match, in my opinion he is not guilty. If you simply say "He installed cheats, so he is a cheater." then you don't regard all the circumstances and arguments.
I find it kinda said how some people of this community deal with renowned veterans.
This event was failure when scheduling times came out. Better use 2 teams in cologne if the money is biggest problem like it usually are and organize better dates. I just think that this was too big fish to take
Godar ban well there could be a reason to ban or it was a just silly mistake, but hey hugh said VAC doesn't make mistakes!! Sorry but you don't have no idea, better make demotools to prevent these problems, but that isn't possible..
Strict rules to help to play the best possible time and hope that everyone could play or wanna
Sorry for negative post but Bellicose is right and we can't talk about it because it's community event and the non competitive players (like who wanted to see great event and give more hope to the game) who donated this event aren't allowed to see these accusations.
Most of these events have always been met with criticism because of the organizers lack of understanding of how competitive gaming works... Trying to organize these events and bill them as 'professional esports' when you have almost 0 understanding of how such events are run doesn't make much sense, and was obvious given how previous events were run. Would those events have been presented much more casually (like this one was initially), I suspect few would have even mentioned those issues. Ironically this event which was supposed to be the 'community' event is way more restricting than any of the previous 'esports' events.
As I wrote in my reply to ironhorse, I agreed with his analogy - however, Eissfeldt has already accounted for the VAC ban. It is up to the accusers to prove that he has used the software to cheat. The only thing we can conclude from the VAC ban, is that he had cheats installed. We cannot derive anything else.
"(in this case, being caught by VAC), which is an act that is clearly defined as a transgression, and everybody understands and accepts it."
Wrong. Nobody accepts VAC as evidence for a cheater - as others have already pointed out, there are plenty of pro gamers with VAC bans in other e-sports. And the reason is, the use of hacks is a widely used tool to spot cheaters, always has been. To catch a cheater, you have to understand the cheater. So the VAC cannot be used as evidence for anything other than that Eissfeldt had cheats on his computer (btw, not even necessarily for ns2).
"Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything"
'not guilty' is not the same as 'innocent'. Just like 'not innocent' does not mean 'guilty'. The binary states are 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.
"Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013.""
Eissfeldt's case is different because he has a long standing good reputation with his rivals. Non of his opponents have accused him of cheats, infact they've come out to defend him in spite of the VAC ban. He has several hours of footage of him playing his scrims over several months. So we actually have positive evidence that exhonorates him, along with a massive lack of evidence against him, since there's not even been a fucking match to analyze or investigate.