A frank NS2WC discussion

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  • GORGEousGORGEous Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Posts: 1,461 Advanced user
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    You can't prove that he didn't cheat during an actual match, either. That's the issue.

    Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.

    But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.

    A more apt analogy is justifiable homocide. He committed homocide (in this analogy, anyway ;p), and he has to show it was justifiable. You're not proving him guilty, he's proving himself to be justified in the use. Given that he didn't tell anyone he was doing this until he was vac banned, his only defense is his well known ability and his occasional streaming. Neither of which disqualify his use of a wallhack, but do mitigate it, again IMO. Thus, I feel the compromise was rather fair.
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  • DecoyDecoy Members, Super Administrators, Playtest Lead, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159037Posts: 400 vanilla
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.

    I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.

    SantaClaws wrote: »
    But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.

    He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.
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  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Posts: 1,037
    edited December 2013
    I think the entire idea of having people like Wasabi and Zefram organize such an event is patently absurd, considering that they are closely associated with one particular competitive team. That being said, I did hope that they would at least make an effort not to be horribly biased. And now we learn that they are enforcing one of their rules in an attempt to force players to remain on Titus. Oh well, I suppose disappointment is just the norm with this event.

    I truly feel for anyone who bought into the Hugh and Wasabi hype train and gave money to this tire fire. I wish there was a way for you to get your money back. The NS2WC admins clearly don't deserve it.
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  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    edited December 2013
    Decoy wrote: »
    I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.

    You can bet all you want, but you're just speculating now, and frankly wether you think we're hypocrits or not is irrelevant. But I will still defend myself and say, that if a lower div player, who had been in the scene with a long standing reputation like Eissfield, and had been livestreaming for months, then I'd defend him just the same. Sure there would be cases where a less well known player might be wrongfully convicted because of lack of evidence. All I ask is, when we have this amount of evidence as we do in this case, we should investigate it accordingly. When the accusers are not giving us anything to investigate, well then his reputation should count for something.
    Decoy wrote: »
    He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.

    Again, you guys attempt to shift the burden of proof. You're the ones accusing Eissfeldt of cheating, you should be the ones aiming to prove that he's guilty. The VAC ban is not an indication of a cheater at all. Yes, it means you've had cheats on your computer, but that is ALL you can determine from that fact. Nothing else can be derived from it. You can't even be sure he has cheated in ns2! And when you have a case like this, where you don't have a single suspecious match, then that fact is completely irrelevant. Especially if Eissfeldt is streaming all the qualifying matches anyway.
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  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @santaclaws
    I really dont want any part in this discussion, but i have to point out that your analogy is severely inadequate.
    Its more akin to a traffic camera that catches your car doing something it shouldn't - some automated system which is blind from all circumstantial factors.
    In which case, its up to the person who is ticketed to produce evidence of said "extenuating circumstance" - i.e. the burden is in fact on the person, due to the automated system.

    That is a fair point, I even gave you an agree. I'd argue however, that Eissfeldt has already done so. He explained the circumstances sufficiently as far as I'm concerned.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    edited December 2013
    @santaclaws
    I think that Eiss' reputation definitely counts for something, and yea he has verbally explained.. but:
    A court would ask for evidence of said circumstance - a phone call, a transcript, a Dr.'s note - something.. and if it could not be procured then it would solely be up to the judge to make the determination of their innocence ... often taking into account their reputation / past. (I'm surprised no friend /witness backed up Eiss publicly? "Yea he told me minutes before that he was using it for that purpose")

    Unfortunately, where my analogy ceases to be useful is when considering how the judge would not use this case to set an example, in real life, due to the size of the community (in comparison to NS2's.. )
    So @coltcolt 's point of where to draw the line / should an example be set where we just trust the word of an individual every single time, definitely comes into play..

    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @bluesroo I assume as much, but thats the whole point. Getting informed as to the why. (note that the 18y rule in no possible way effects me, I just noticed it and am aware the community has lower then 18y players also)

    As for starting the topic.. That was a good thing, not a bad thing. Steam chat informs one person. Then that person has to relay all the info as much and correct as possible. Information posted here is open and visible for all ns2 players on the planet. It is a community event. I would argue they should only have talked about this in these topics when the questions were asked.

    Although in my eyes far to late, posts like @WasabiOne has made are infact what we were asking for and what was needed right from the start. Rules could have been posted and discussed during the funding phase.
    Explenations of various rules could have been given.
    Post like the ones Zef made help the situation not in the slightest and only fan the flames.

    I shall not put any blaim for why the rules were chosen atm, if I agree with them or not. Even in disagree I can see the logic and points in the explanation Wasabione gave.
    I do put blaim in the poor flow, or lack thereof, of information & the pointing to the community. The community was not at fault in any of this, and saying otherwise is only fanning more flames.


    I have a slight hope that information will from now on be complete and a lot faster about this entire event. Time shall tell.
    I shall again complement Fana, Hugh and wasabi with atleast putting forth some information when it finally got posted.

    I hope to see more improvement on this all soon.
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  • HivelordHivelord Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17567Posts: 140 Fully active user
    Decoy wrote: »
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    Wrong. That's not an issue. You do not ask a person to prove his own innocense, it's the prosecution that has to prove that he is guilty. The burden of proof is on the accuser. And remember, no one actually accused Eissfeldt of cheating in ANY match. So there's no match for us to investigate at all.

    I just want to point out - If this had been an issue with a lower div player, I'd be willing to bet that everyone would have been like, SUCKS TO SUCK, WAY TO GET BANNED. Nobody would have even thought twice about it and would generally agree that they shouldn't be able to play in the tournament.

    SantaClaws wrote: »
    But apparently, in ns2, you are guilty untill proven otherwise.

    He got caught with cheats installed and VAC banned... I mean, c'mon. That's kind of a big old "guilty" charge right there. You can't prove his intent with them. It's not like any of the NS2WC admins were like "OH, HEY, I DON'T LIKE THAT EISSFELDT GUY, LET'S BAN HIM CAUSE OF THAT." It's a pretty serious thing, especially with prize money being on the line.

    When I used to play tf2, players would get 1+ year bans from all competitive play just for having a VAC ban on their steamid. The ban could be revoked if the player in question could successfully join a VAC enabled server. Evidence bans were pretty much permanent. Eissfeldt should be stoked that hes allowed to participate at all.

    Who am I kidding, hes my brothers wifes cousins partner, he would never hack. admins pls unban.
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  • GORGEousGORGEous Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Posts: 1,461 Advanced user
    I think the entire idea of having people like Wasabi and Zefram organize such an event is patently absurd, considering that they are closely associated with one particular competitive team. That being said, I did hope that they would at least make an effort not to be horribly biased. And now we learn that they are enforcing one of their rules in an attempt to force players to remain on Titus. Oh well, I suppose disappointment is just the norm with this event.

    I truly feel for anyone who bought into the Hugh and Wasabi hype train and gave money to this tire fire. I wish there was a way for you to get your money back. The NS2WC admins clearly don't deserve it.

    You could always do it. And what you said about them enforcing rules in order to favor Titus is blatantly retarded. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Members, Constellation Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Posts: 673 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    The event is for the players, 90% of players agree on Fana's post, the players are being ignored up until NS2WC team is publically shamed. Tell me again why we are playing in this?

    Oh thats right, there is money involved. You take the money away boys, no one would be playing in this farce. The real World Cup was played in NSL S3.

    @Strayan / Hugh; If your going to comment on the eissfelt VAC ban at-least find out what happened. Your comment just makes you look stupid and very uninformed which voids any potentially good point you might have had.
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  • ScatterScatter Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Posts: 635 Advanced user
    Fark me dead if they advertise subnautica on the twitch stream.
  • JektJekt Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,543 Advanced user
    edited December 2013
    Whether they're Titus members or not, and whatever internal drama is going on there doesn't really matter. The point is that some members left to make a new team and the rules of the WC aren't compatible with the result. New players can't replace those that quit, nor can a new team be created consisting of a previous teams members. This is clearly a problem. The fact that the members are from Titus should of been irrelevant.

    Before this thread and before there were any rule changes, I think there were some quiet rule exceptions being handed out in direct contradiction to the official ruleset to deal with the situation which just lead to confusion and some of the bias commentary.

    It's nice that the rules were changed a day before the deadline. Although I think rosters should be completely unlocked and the deadline extended 2-3 more days to compensate, if possible.
  • BellicoseBellicose Members Join Date: 2013-04-11 Member: 184748Posts: 87
    edited December 2013
    fanatic wrote: »
    I am very sorry that I had to make this thread. I would've much preferred that this was solved in a cleaner manner, but I saw no other way.

    This is complete and utter bullsh*t - and I'm calling you out on it. You had one conversation with Wasabi, and it didn't go your way or you didn't get the answer that you wanted. So, in high and mighty Fana fashion, you drag it onto the forums and ignite more drama than these guys need to deal with.

    You saw no other way? Are you that dense? You know that Wasabi isn't the only admin, right? When you didn't get your way with Wasabi, nothing in that brain of yours thought "Hmm, I should try to meet with all the admins and discuss it in a civil way - maybe even get their side of the story before I blow this up on the forums." No - of course not.

    So, yes, Fana - there was another way. You are either extremely selfish or you are doing your best to see this effort fail; which is completely unfair to the guys pouring hours and hours to try to get this off the ground. All you've done was show how much you thrive on creating drama and sticking your nose into everyone's business. Don't give me that 'holier-than-thou' veil - it's extremely thin and people can see right through it.
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  • wirywiry Members Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Posts: 507 Advanced user
    Bellicose, have you participated in UWE hosted events before? This kind of behaviour isn't really 'news'.
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  • frantixfrantix Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Posts: 98
    edited December 2013
    Belli, what exactly is your problem with a -public discussion- regarding a problem that affects the -public-? I don't see any "drama" but a very well thought out and reasonable argumentation. In fact, even Wasabi and Hugh see it like this and said "Thanks" to Fana.

    I'm not related to any of the teams, not playing competitively, but I donated and want to see a good, fair and well made tournament. From what I read so far, the points Fana made are absolutely valid in my humble opinion. To be honest I'm quite shocked about the obvious and dilettante misdetermination that have been made so far, and their (possible) motivations. If those misdetermination are not corrected very soon and completely, they will seriously temper my experience of the tournament.
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  • KamamuraKamamura Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Posts: 669 Advanced user
    edited December 2013
    SantaClaws, I don't know if your guy is guilty or not, but I hope you are not a lawyer, because by using obvious logical fallacies, you are doing more harm than good to your "client". What Ironhorse wrote is absolutely true - once you are caught with evidence against you, it's up to you to explain your innocence, otherwise you will be found guilty, there is no "burden of proof" anymore, because such proof was presented in the form of said evidence (in this case, being caught by VAC), which is an act that is clearly defined as a transgression, and everybody understands and accepts it. You can argue that there were other circumstances that put what he did into different light, but the burden is on you once conclusive evidence is presented.

    Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything. I understand all the emotions and such, but those words have their defined meaning.

    Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013."
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  • frantixfrantix Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Posts: 98
    @Kamamura
    But you're no lawyer either I hope? As long as you can't proof that he did use a cheat to gain an unfair advantage in an actual match, in my opinion he is not guilty. If you simply say "He installed cheats, so he is a cheater." then you don't regard all the circumstances and arguments.

    I find it kinda said how some people of this community deal with renowned veterans.
  • MigeMige Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2005-03-19 Member: 45796Posts: 166 Fully active user
    edited December 2013
    I need more popcorns, please Bellicose bring it on!

    This event was failure when scheduling times came out. Better use 2 teams in cologne if the money is biggest problem like it usually are and organize better dates. I just think that this was too big fish to take

    Godar ban well there could be a reason to ban or it was a just silly mistake, but hey hugh said VAC doesn't make mistakes!! Sorry but you don't have no idea, better make demotools to prevent these problems, but that isn't possible..
    Strict rules to help to play the best possible time and hope that everyone could play or wanna :D Well some teams could like that and zefram knows this (He likes that his own team could have taken forfeits on last NSL season and he is NSL league admin!, but thanks to bitey you are the man) well everybody loves that wasabi have invisible titus flag when streaming (ofc its reasonable to cheer own country players ;) no hard feelings)

    Sorry for negative post but Bellicose is right and we can't talk about it because it's community event and the non competitive players (like who wanted to see great event and give more hope to the game) who donated this event aren't allowed to see these accusations.
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  • SantaClawsSantaClaws DenmarkMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Posts: 1,082 Advanced user
    @Kamamura - I'm not a lawyer, thank god for that, I'd bore myself to death. But let me just be clear, I have nothing invested in Eissfeldt what so ever, I have never spoken to the man. I have briefly played with him on publics before, but I sincerely doubt that he'd even recall me. So he's not "my guy".

    As I wrote in my reply to ironhorse, I agreed with his analogy - however, Eissfeldt has already accounted for the VAC ban. It is up to the accusers to prove that he has used the software to cheat. The only thing we can conclude from the VAC ban, is that he had cheats installed. We cannot derive anything else.

    "(in this case, being caught by VAC), which is an act that is clearly defined as a transgression, and everybody understands and accepts it."

    Wrong. Nobody accepts VAC as evidence for a cheater - as others have already pointed out, there are plenty of pro gamers with VAC bans in other e-sports. And the reason is, the use of hacks is a widely used tool to spot cheaters, always has been. To catch a cheater, you have to understand the cheater. So the VAC cannot be used as evidence for anything other than that Eissfeldt had cheats on his computer (btw, not even necessarily for ns2).

    "Also, when you state that "we are not saying he is innocent, we are saying he is guilty", it's just a simple bad use of words. This is a binary state - innocent vs. guilty, either one or the other, so innocent equals not guilty, and your statement does not really say anything"

    'not guilty' is not the same as 'innocent'. Just like 'not innocent' does not mean 'guilty'. The binary states are 'guilty' or 'not guilty'.

    "Also, there is the concern of precedence, if one such exception is made, all caught cheaters will say: "Oh, you know, I was just using it to catch cheaters, like that other guy back in 2013.""

    Eissfeldt's case is different because he has a long standing good reputation with his rivals. Non of his opponents have accused him of cheats, infact they've come out to defend him in spite of the VAC ban. He has several hours of footage of him playing his scrims over several months. So we actually have positive evidence that exhonorates him, along with a massive lack of evidence against him, since there's not even been a fucking match to analyze or investigate.
    frantix
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