More like a dodo bird that presses F12, running a script on top of the game might get you banned too btw.
Beyond that no one should really care here about a player getting a vac ban, its pretty silly. He already has had to pay enough of a price in simply loosing an account for NS2. If it was someone that was just hacking to ruin servers, well then problem solved unless they buy a new acc. If its a reasonable community member, then I see little reason to shun them, especially with 0 proof that they were ever using them actively while playing.
No sane competitive player would use cheats regularly in this scene, all the higher level players are too well known, and sudden jumps in skill or senses would be easily apparent. Forcing screenshots wont do anything to fix the issue, any reasonably well designed hack that bypasses vac can easily be extended to bypass that.. And for the record, the consistency check can be completely bypassed by those with knowledge, allowing you to make any kind of wallhack and aimbot you desire with 0 risk of a vac ban. I dont want to dig up screenshots but I have shown proof of that before, while on a NSL server. The best way to detect cheaters will always be with good admins.
And FYI a top level CSS players was vac banned at one point and people made a huge deal, and from what I recall absolutely nothing happened to him because of it. People had seen him play on lan and it was pretty obvious there he wasnt cheating.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Basically a bunch of people who care more about the letter of the law than the spirit in which it is made, seems to be a growing movement among the mediocre of the world. Several well know people in my community have done the same as Eissfeldt and we all accept that it is necessary given that UWE have been asked and have stated that they have no further intentions to implement anti cheating mechanisms.
I was going to participate in this tournament, but the inconsiderate timings and the disappointing but unsurprising attitude from admins and some members of this community irritates me greatly.
But what are we supposed to do in a community dominated by American pathologies such as self righteousness and their binary views of the world.
Out of curiosity are we going to see ingame screenshots kind of detection before the actually tournament?
Script that presses F12 every 1-2 minute on random interval that takes ingame pictures with the steam overlay. Doesn't affect performance nor takes up huge space. Upload pictures after match for check. Fast and ugly solution until something is done with the 30kdollaro$ to ensure a professional enviroment?
We asked for that 1 year ago. You would need a ns2 screenshot system for that. Because ns2 can not access the steam screenshot system to take random screens.
At least i was told so.
And for the record, the consistency check can be completely bypassed by those with knowledge, allowing you to make any kind of wallhack and aimbot you desire with 0 risk of a vac ban.
Everything can be tricked. @Aioros complained there was no way to screenshot, I supplied one. Didn't market it as foolproof.
EDIT: There is only one method that cannot be tricked, and that is a high def recording of you playing the game (that shows screen + you + kb/mouse) and is good enough quality it actually captures the game properly so you can't substitute some random game for it.
Apart from this there IS NO WAY you can absolutely be sure.
Sure, but your basically adding something that requires the person that would be cheating to setup, thats like handcuffing them then giving them the keys, you dont even need to pick the lock...
If it is at least controlled completely by the game/anti cheat its atleast not something that the client can start/stop constantly or know the exact timing of lol, just like consistency can be bypassed it still stops probably 98%+ because it takes some thought to get around it.
That's true, but start stopping it won't help them as if there are missing screens you get warned. I really doubt it'd be that hard for someone to code into this game a function that dumps jpg files every X seconds. (Btw since it'd be in lua they'd know the interval anyway).
I don't even see why the admins of the NS2WC would consider banning from the tournament if he himself offered to stream every game he plays. To me that seems pretty straightforward. If we can see his POV, we know that he isn't cheating. And even if you want him to sit out the qualifying rounds, he should be allowed to play in the finals... those are LAN events, it would be impossible for him to get away with cheating there.
Not to mention this whole thing has been marketed as a tournament "for the community" and we now are learning that we won't get to watch one of the most talented and entertaining players the community has to offer, when there is clearly an alternative available that would allow him to play.
All I can say is I'm very glad I chose not to fund this event.
Consider someone who stops a thief, takes the stolen goods from the thief, and goes back to the store to return it, only to be arrested for stealing because he was carrying stolen goods. It is obvious to anyone that this is a perversion of justice; abusing rules to punish desireable actions.
It's more like the thief got caught stealing and told the store owner that they only did it to show how someone else might be stealing. Then having the thief's family tell the police what a good guy he is.
Do I personally think he cheated in any matches? Not at all. However, when taking a vigilante approach you should make others aware of your actions, especially admins in the league and UWE. You take great risk upon yourself otherwise.
The problem with that analogy is that we have no proof Eiss ever cheated in a match, only that he had used cheats - for what intention the jury must ascertain.
What we do know is this:
1. There is a case of defence for Eiss.
2. We can put him to trial (bearing in mind NO ONE thinks he cheated).
3. The vast majority of the community has no idea that he has been banned (let's face it most people who play NS2 don't come here and the new people will likely be watching the game).
The most logical decision is to put him to trial.
Out of interest, is there anyone here who thinks he will fail? Or will you continue the dogmatic, "rules are rules", forgetting that, and I hate to quote the Bible..."the law was made for man, not man for the law" (i.e. there are subtle nuances as both Fana and Jekt have conclusively pointed out)?
Edit: @Scatter You're certainly right about a few things there but the comment about Americans was a little silly - most of the idiotic comments made in this thread thus far have come from my continent...
So for sure he aint cheating in game, can attest from playing with or against him. His lerk sure doesnt wallhack :>
now i agree he rly should have told at least some ensl leader about what he was trying to achieve, you cant just go yolomode on a witch hunt.
This particular situation shows how we need a good spec system with xrays and stuff.
I personally had suspicions of wallhack against some players, none from godar, so i understand what he tried to do since u just cant prove anything atm with the aweful demo system.
If you ban him, a lot of baddies macroing their pistols should be banned too atm in the ensl.
So i add my vote to the let him play crowd.
Or godar can just recruit a new german since no one knows what eis looks like
I don't understand why he tried to watch some guy with walls on live. If you're going to use walls to catch cheaters, demo yourself watching them FIRST then turn walls on to watch the demo play back. Never EVER join a VAC server with hacks on to catch cheaters, that's just...not very clever. I feel pretty bad that he's now black stained because of it, ain't nothing like that first steam account with a clean reputation
EDIT: Thanks mouse, that was quite a bit of cutting work!
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
Imho
This is a community tournament. While competitive its primary goal should be that its fun and that everybody has a good time. We can argue about the vac ban, but his offer to stream shows his willing to do the right thing. That is imho all i need, i can be sure he wont cheat and everybody can have a good time. The rest is, even if the intentions are good, valuing rules more than human beeings.
That said, wasabione said they are discussing it internally, lets let them do that
With the track record of the NS2 seasons so far I think a much bigger problem is stomps. In my opinion they should make any tolerable allowance possible to ensure that the best players are involved. Another team going 99-0 and crushing the finals will put off more viewers than some pseudo scandal most players have never heard about.
I don't know anything specific about this person, but from an observers perspective it seems that someone became overzealous in trying to catch a hacker and was jumped by VAC.
Personally, I can see that he may have been very determined to catch someone and believed this was the best way- BUT- If someone has proven that they have the dedicated to find, download, install, and use a hacking program in the game, then they should be treated with some suspicion and wariness.
As for the tournament, if it's LAN/Streamed I don't see any issue.
NS2WC is(last I checked) a Community sponsored event. That means what happens "Officially" should have no say nor bearings in this. If UWE was entirely funding and hosting this event it would be... Understandable. I wouldn't agree with it, but I really couldn't fault them for it.
This is not the case however.
What you're doing is no different than a football(amurrican fewtball!) player being arrested for drunk driving, then being released and being denied the ability to play in his next game by referee's. If you were to catch a player cheating in a uwe sanctioned event, by all means never let that player play in any other uwe events. Same for a community sponsored event. What a player chooses to do on his/her free time is entirely that persons choice. If they're caught drinking and driving and have to pay a fine, that's their fault for doing something stupid, that's no reason to completely bar someone from an event that had no "relation" to it. By all means give them a "Sobriety" test before/after each match if you need to.
By the way, if you think of things in black and white settings, you're as dense as Ichika Orimura. Exceptions to almost any "Rule" are made if it is "For the greater good".
NS2WC is(last I checked) a Community sponsored event. That means what happens "Officially" should have no say nor bearings in this. If UWE was entirely funding and hosting this event it would be... Understandable. I wouldn't agree with it, but I really couldn't fault them for it.
"Officially" isn't UWE, it's the people in charge of the community event (afaik, Wasabi and co).
I'm by no means certain of this, but isn't it against Valve T&C to repurchase a game on a secondary account when you have been banned for it? Its obviously a rule that is impossible to enforce, but it must be stipulated somewhere surely?
It wouldn't look very good for an official tournament to go against the T&Cs of the creators of the games official platform.
"If you burn your ass you have to sit on blisters" (awesome Dutchism).
Vs:
"Everybody deserves a 2nd chance"
I'll leave this one to the wisdom of Wasabi and co.
I feel sorry for them that they have another NS2WC related negativity wave to deal with, regardless of outcome.
I'm by no means certain of this, but isn't it against Valve T&C to repurchase a game on a secondary account when you have been banned for it? Its obviously a rule that is impossible to enforce, but it must be stipulated somewhere surely?.
Lmao, no. I have a friend who got VAC'd in CS:GO. Not sure if he was telling me the truth as to it being a false positive or not, can't be sure. However, after being VAC'd and attempting to contact support they told him they would not be reversing it but did invite him to buy the game again, with a link to the store page.
It's obviously easy to have smart afterthoughts on these, but most of the stuff like this should be listed on the rules and enforced through them one way or the other. Things like this could and should be prepared for prior to the point where it starts being about some specific person in some specific case.
Also, if the tournament organizers feel need to prevent someone from participating or doing something else dramatic, it has to be done in a transparent way. There should always be some official statement signed by someone - especially when you have to go past the rulebook. It shouldn't be for example Fana's job to make the decision public.
I really don't want to poke too much into this specific case before there's some actual statement about it, but admins pursuing this past the existing rulebook definitely seems harsh and unnecessary call at this point.
Regardless of whether eiss was hacking or not, he was not doing it during an official league match or anything similar so I really don't see any grounds for banning him from the tournament. He has played multiple NSL seasons for a top team clearly without any cheats, also with POV streams of himself. If he had been cheating all this time, why would he risk it all during a pcw? Please.
Are these NS2WC admins new to league play/gaming or what?
I have never heard of a player getting banned in a league without actually having cheated in a match.
I played high level clan matches in Team Fortress Classic back in the day and people got banned for cheating in ACTUAL MATCHES not because they happened to use a hack in some pub server and got a vac ban for it.
Sure there is no way to know for sure why he was VAC banned without taking his word for it, but you need to at least provide some sort of demo or even circumstantial evidence of a MATCH in which it appeared he was cheating.
GISPBattle GorgeDenmarkJoin Date: 2004-03-20Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
edited November 2013
I Want to make myself perfectly clear.
If anyone is using hacks or other 3rd party software to cheat, and im able to confirm it. I will not only BAN the player from all UWE servers, but allso report em to VAC.
There is NO EXCUSE, what so ever to use hacks, for any reason.
If you suspect anyone using hacks, report em to the local server admin, or if on a UWE server, @Ironhorse or myself.
If you are a server admin, and have suspected hackers, and you see me online and want confirmation or just lack the meens to record, poke me and ill come.
You are allso free to contact @Ironhorse or myself whit evidence (such as recordings, logs etc.) At any other time, and we will take it from there.
Comments
Beyond that no one should really care here about a player getting a vac ban, its pretty silly. He already has had to pay enough of a price in simply loosing an account for NS2. If it was someone that was just hacking to ruin servers, well then problem solved unless they buy a new acc. If its a reasonable community member, then I see little reason to shun them, especially with 0 proof that they were ever using them actively while playing.
No sane competitive player would use cheats regularly in this scene, all the higher level players are too well known, and sudden jumps in skill or senses would be easily apparent. Forcing screenshots wont do anything to fix the issue, any reasonably well designed hack that bypasses vac can easily be extended to bypass that.. And for the record, the consistency check can be completely bypassed by those with knowledge, allowing you to make any kind of wallhack and aimbot you desire with 0 risk of a vac ban. I dont want to dig up screenshots but I have shown proof of that before, while on a NSL server. The best way to detect cheaters will always be with good admins.
And FYI a top level CSS players was vac banned at one point and people made a huge deal, and from what I recall absolutely nothing happened to him because of it. People had seen him play on lan and it was pretty obvious there he wasnt cheating.
I was going to participate in this tournament, but the inconsiderate timings and the disappointing but unsurprising attitude from admins and some members of this community irritates me greatly.
But what are we supposed to do in a community dominated by American pathologies such as self righteousness and their binary views of the world.
?
This is very true...and sad.
EDIT: There is only one method that cannot be tricked, and that is a high def recording of you playing the game (that shows screen + you + kb/mouse) and is good enough quality it actually captures the game properly so you can't substitute some random game for it.
Apart from this there IS NO WAY you can absolutely be sure.
Rofl... Please tell us more about this.
Not to mention this whole thing has been marketed as a tournament "for the community" and we now are learning that we won't get to watch one of the most talented and entertaining players the community has to offer, when there is clearly an alternative available that would allow him to play.
All I can say is I'm very glad I chose not to fund this event.
The problem with that analogy is that we have no proof Eiss ever cheated in a match, only that he had used cheats - for what intention the jury must ascertain.
What we do know is this:
1. There is a case of defence for Eiss.
2. We can put him to trial (bearing in mind NO ONE thinks he cheated).
3. The vast majority of the community has no idea that he has been banned (let's face it most people who play NS2 don't come here and the new people will likely be watching the game).
The most logical decision is to put him to trial.
Out of interest, is there anyone here who thinks he will fail? Or will you continue the dogmatic, "rules are rules", forgetting that, and I hate to quote the Bible..."the law was made for man, not man for the law" (i.e. there are subtle nuances as both Fana and Jekt have conclusively pointed out)?
Edit: @Scatter You're certainly right about a few things there but the comment about Americans was a little silly - most of the idiotic comments made in this thread thus far have come from my continent...
So for sure he aint cheating in game, can attest from playing with or against him. His lerk sure doesnt wallhack :>
now i agree he rly should have told at least some ensl leader about what he was trying to achieve, you cant just go yolomode on a witch hunt.
This particular situation shows how we need a good spec system with xrays and stuff.
I personally had suspicions of wallhack against some players, none from godar, so i understand what he tried to do since u just cant prove anything atm with the aweful demo system.
If you ban him, a lot of baddies macroing their pistols should be banned too atm in the ensl.
So i add my vote to the let him play crowd.
Or godar can just recruit a new german since no one knows what eis looks like
EDIT: Thanks mouse, that was quite a bit of cutting work!
This is a community tournament. While competitive its primary goal should be that its fun and that everybody has a good time. We can argue about the vac ban, but his offer to stream shows his willing to do the right thing. That is imho all i need, i can be sure he wont cheat and everybody can have a good time. The rest is, even if the intentions are good, valuing rules more than human beeings.
That said, wasabione said they are discussing it internally, lets let them do that
Personally, I can see that he may have been very determined to catch someone and believed this was the best way- BUT- If someone has proven that they have the dedicated to find, download, install, and use a hacking program in the game, then they should be treated with some suspicion and wariness.
As for the tournament, if it's LAN/Streamed I don't see any issue.
Did you believe his Robin Hood story?
Hmm, not sure.
Everytime you join a server, you see what happen if you are using cheats.
And surprise, VAC seems to work a bit finally.
And now this:
I smell another wave of "End of Community, blame UWE" posts coming.
This is not the case however.
What you're doing is no different than a football(amurrican fewtball!) player being arrested for drunk driving, then being released and being denied the ability to play in his next game by referee's. If you were to catch a player cheating in a uwe sanctioned event, by all means never let that player play in any other uwe events. Same for a community sponsored event. What a player chooses to do on his/her free time is entirely that persons choice. If they're caught drinking and driving and have to pay a fine, that's their fault for doing something stupid, that's no reason to completely bar someone from an event that had no "relation" to it. By all means give them a "Sobriety" test before/after each match if you need to.
By the way, if you think of things in black and white settings, you're as dense as Ichika Orimura. Exceptions to almost any "Rule" are made if it is "For the greater good".
"Officially" isn't UWE, it's the people in charge of the community event (afaik, Wasabi and co).
Should NS2WC be hosted on non-vac servers, it would only invite people to cheat.
IMO, he should be fine to play but he would need to make a new account and re-buy NS2 on there to play on VAC secured servers.
It wouldn't look very good for an official tournament to go against the T&Cs of the creators of the games official platform.
Vs:
"Everybody deserves a 2nd chance"
I'll leave this one to the wisdom of Wasabi and co.
I feel sorry for them that they have another NS2WC related negativity wave to deal with, regardless of outcome.
Lmao, no. I have a friend who got VAC'd in CS:GO. Not sure if he was telling me the truth as to it being a false positive or not, can't be sure. However, after being VAC'd and attempting to contact support they told him they would not be reversing it but did invite him to buy the game again, with a link to the store page.
Also, if the tournament organizers feel need to prevent someone from participating or doing something else dramatic, it has to be done in a transparent way. There should always be some official statement signed by someone - especially when you have to go past the rulebook. It shouldn't be for example Fana's job to make the decision public.
I really don't want to poke too much into this specific case before there's some actual statement about it, but admins pursuing this past the existing rulebook definitely seems harsh and unnecessary call at this point.
Case closed.
I have never heard of a player getting banned in a league without actually having cheated in a match.
I played high level clan matches in Team Fortress Classic back in the day and people got banned for cheating in ACTUAL MATCHES not because they happened to use a hack in some pub server and got a vac ban for it.
Sure there is no way to know for sure why he was VAC banned without taking his word for it, but you need to at least provide some sort of demo or even circumstantial evidence of a MATCH in which it appeared he was cheating.
If anyone is using hacks or other 3rd party software to cheat, and im able to confirm it. I will not only BAN the player from all UWE servers, but allso report em to VAC.
There is NO EXCUSE, what so ever to use hacks, for any reason.
If you suspect anyone using hacks, report em to the local server admin, or if on a UWE server, @Ironhorse or myself.
If you are a server admin, and have suspected hackers, and you see me online and want confirmation or just lack the meens to record, poke me and ill come.
You are allso free to contact @Ironhorse or myself whit evidence (such as recordings, logs etc.) At any other time, and we will take it from there.