Everything you said is still your own interpretation of the tech path and the graphs. The game is asymmetrical. If they wanted a perfectly linear "combat strength" graph, they would have created a marine vs marine game with a mirrored tech tree. I am not arguing the game is perfectly balanced. It is just not as bad as you are making it out to be.
Also, nowhere in my post did I say anything about L2P or "get skill."
asymmetrical does not mean: " no balance possible". it is possible! they just have to try and try again changing res-system or abbilities. i would try to give the marines more speed and a little bit more health. than see what it does to the new statistics. if we can get closer to 50:50 our job is done! or simply nerf the fades. there is a lot you can do to give more balancing to the game
just wanted to point out that 50:50 is not and should not be the end goal. We were very close to that value several builds before 250, yet the massive changes were still designed and implemented. The end goal must incorporate a 50% probability of winning, but must also not be tactically stale or shallow. This means giving aliens other ways to win the game than a fade ball and/or gorge rush, and giving marines other ways to win than perfectly executed early pressure or grinding out a win.
5 man pressure? Base rush
4 man pressure? Base rush
3 man pressure? Wipe phase gate and pick off pressure group.
2 man pressure? Get res biter through if possible and then clear pressure.
1 man pressure? lol dead.
0 man pressure? Greedy khamm and res ripping fades.
I usually lmg until railguns now, they go through skulks and lerks like butter, and can force fades to retreat. also lmg let's me push away bad fades, and good fades will kill me regardless of shotgun sans jp. also, sentry push is effective if your marines know how to pressure.
Honestly, I feel like fade wouldn't be as big a problem if we got rid of the stupid purple smoke. I'm talking about the puff that obscures the fade everytime he enters blink.
You still would need to fix fade ball and map mobility, but actually being able to see things properly through blink spam would go a long way. Then you're not just relying on shotgun to snap shot fades.
Eh.. while i don't think the fade is actually OP, i also don't think its the VERY brief and static purple smoke effect that does it.
I think fades just move too fast for your average pubber to track and hit.
Its just that simple.
Moving fast is a great way to lower the skill floor, and complements the HP and role of the fade, but it also impacts the enemy team's ability to track you.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited August 2013
Go up against 4 fades attempting to grind a phase all blinking in quick succession and that smoke, for me, becomes a huge problem landing those crucial sg hits.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Hmm I see your point and agree it should be made much more transparent, if there at all.. but I think you have much larger issues to deal with than an occasional obscuration when dealing with four fades, right? lol
I also find it interesting that nobody complained about exos, which also tend to rack up the kills. I was votekicked out of a server twice because my railgun was destroying groundskulks and straightlerks/sentrylerks left and right.
railguns have the job to kill skulks and lerks. they also cost a lot of res. and by the way exos got nerfed in 251. the fade was never nerfed. and compared to an onos is killing and exo much easier. just 2 or 3 good jumping skulks and an exo can have a problem
Railguns cost the same amount of resources as a fade
Honestly, I feel like fade wouldn't be as big a problem if we got rid of the stupid purple smoke. I'm talking about the puff that obscures the fade everytime he enters blink.
You still would need to fix fade ball and map mobility, but actually being able to see things properly through blink spam would go a long way. Then you're not just relying on shotgun to snap shot fades.
Eh.. while i don't think the fade is actually OP, i also don't think its the VERY brief and static purple smoke effect that does it.
I think fades just move too fast for your average pubber to track and hit.
Its just that simple.
Moving fast is a great way to lower the skill floor, and complements the HP and role of the fade, but it also impacts the enemy team's ability to track you.
Also in addition to jekt's post, yes. For the average pubber the problem is certainly that the fade moves too fast, because they are not yet used to aiming reliably at these speeds. And they don't have the marine movement ability or understanding to even be worrying about how good their aim is.
For the experienced player who is already used to this and can track at these speeds, that circle puff obscures vision and messes up all the little fine tells that you need to work off. It messes with your ability to detect/predict movement vectors and precisely where to aim. Even if its 'very brief', it's actually alot relatively with how fast said lifeform is going, and how little time you have to get damage in. Most of the time, fade will be blink swiping through your fov in a second or less, and/or doing crazy movement etc. Don't even get me started on how hard it is to tell that fades are swipe -> blink upwards into the air since you can't tell their direction change very well (i abuse this alot).
In ns1, although it was very hard, you had more of a chance to track and kill fade with lmg. Any inability to track or move well was entirely your own fault. In ns2 however, the inability to track is often not - you just can't see clearly enough. This isn't really anything new though, just more of the same clashing between immersion and gameplay we frequently see.
I only wish more alien commanders would become good enough to pro-actively use rupture spam etc. all the time. Maybe then this general problem might become large enough that something gets done about all these particle effects and smoke fetishes. And while i'm rambling, just look at the effect for ghost structure poofing or structure death. Like what the heck, could you possibly use any more smoke?
I also find it interesting that nobody complained about exos, which also tend to rack up the kills. I was votekicked out of a server twice because my railgun was destroying groundskulks and straightlerks/sentrylerks left and right.
railguns have the job to kill skulks and lerks. they also cost a lot of res. and by the way exos got nerfed in 251. the fade was never nerfed. and compared to an onos is killing and exo much easier. just 2 or 3 good jumping skulks and an exo can have a problem
Railguns cost the same amount of resources as a fade
But require additional research, and extra buildings.
Now, how could we prevent this?
- Make certain higher lifeforms only available through egg drops (Fade and Onos most likely)? That would tie them to the tech level as well. But keep in mind claw exos and jetpacks are available at 1 base.
- What if there was a limit on the number of fades, like in Combat? Maybe 1 for every 3 players on the team? Should exos be limited in numbers too?
- Also, by making lifeform prices dynamic - eg. 1st fade 40 res, 2nd 50 res and 3rd 60 res. That way the marginal utility of fades decreases always when one more player gets one.
-Or by making other lifeforms more viable. So, we should make gorges and onos more viable and mandatory(or fades less viable as a pack). One way to do that is to make it so that fades can only deal 25-50 dmg to structures instead of 75. That way there always has to be skulks, gorges or onos in the team so that aliens can destroy rts and other structures.
Of course those changes won't do the magic alone, but I think everyone can agree that the optimal team composition should be something like 2 gorges, 1 lerk, 2 fades and 1 onos - not 1 gorge, 1 lerk and 4 fades.
Fades already only do 50 to structures. Plus with the slower swing and high energy cost per attack trying to kill extractors as a solo fade is useless.
I believe fades were to counter the jp sg marines but with the recent nerf to armories that was settled in beta fades do seem op and with players that can’t fade well so they use macros and scripts it just gets worse. It seems as if players who go fade just really wanna play combat instead.
Now, how could we prevent this?
- Make certain higher lifeforms only available through egg drops (Fade and Onos most likely)? That would tie them to the tech level as well. But keep in mind claw exos and jetpacks are available at 1 base.
- What if there was a limit on the number of fades, like in Combat? Maybe 1 for every 3 players on the team? Should exos be limited in numbers too?
- Also, by making lifeform prices dynamic - eg. 1st fade 40 res, 2nd 50 res and 3rd 60 res. That way the marginal utility of fades decreases always when one more player gets one.
-Or by making other lifeforms more viable. So, we should make gorges and onos more viable and mandatory(or fades less viable as a pack). One way to do that is to make it so that fades can only deal 25-50 dmg to structures instead of 75. That way there always has to be skulks, gorges or onos in the team so that aliens can destroy rts and other structures.
Of course those changes won't do the magic alone, but I think everyone can agree that the optimal team composition should be something like 2 gorges, 1 lerk, 2 fades and 1 onos - not 1 gorge, 1 lerk and 4 fades.
Dynamic stuff like that is boring for pubs because you can't play the class you want to play. Also 1 fade atm is extremely useless to play.
Your second point is what I completely agree with and have been trying to push through this entire thread.
Unfortunately that team composition doesn't look very good for killing marines so you'd have to balance out marine damage output or make fades slightly stronger (which would mean easier to pub stomp with 1 fade)
Fades already only do 50 to structures. Plus with the slower swing and high energy cost per attack trying to kill extractors as a solo fade is useless.
The issue quite simply isn't with single fades. It's with multiple fades running around together wiping anything in their way or, if it's too much, going round the other side of the map to wipe that down until marines are turtled in their base.
Just give upgrade to shotgun, 5 explosive shells, 10res. More precise, slow (very slow, maybe reload after each shot), 2 direct hit kills fade. Accuracy should be something like with lmg. Good players can follow target to kill evading/running fade, bad players get lucky kills sometimes, cost of res. Ex shells should do little damage to other lifeforms. Proplem solved, more fades die. I know, good shotgunners would be godlike, but so are nowadays profades too. Unless u have godlike shotgunners in your team and ambush to kill them. Shotgunner vs fade should be about 50-50 win situation IMO (depending upgrades).
Aliens basic unit is so strong right now (so agile with pretty good health), so here comes the fadeball.
Do those profades use that shadowstep? Havent seen in games.
Just give upgrade to shotgun, 5 explosive shells, 10res. More precise, slow (very slow, maybe reload after each shot), 2 direct hit kills fade. Accuracy should be something like with lmg. Good players can follow target to kill evading/running fade, bad players get lucky kills sometimes, cost of res. Ex shells should do little damage to other lifeforms. Proplem solved, more fades die. I know, good shotgunners would be godlike, but so are nowadays profades too. Unless u have godlike shotgunners in your team and ambush to kill them. Shotgunner vs fade should be about 50-50 win situation IMO (depending upgrades).
Aliens basic unit is so strong right now (so agile with pretty good health), so here comes the fadeball.
Do those profades use that shadowstep? Havent seen in games.
So... a cheaper railgun which can be beaconed? Don't make it EASIER to kill fades or the games tips over and aliens lose so easy.
Make fades less viable and then make all other lifeforms incredibly more viable!
Basic shotgunner with 5 ex shells as a secondary shells. Buy from proto or AA with high cost.
While I like the idea of additional specialized weapons being added if there's a need for them, I am not fond of adding a long-range secondary option for the shotgun.
When you buy a weapon made for close-range encounters, it in my opinion shouldn't be possible to then snipe with the other mouse button.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Some people say:
A: All you need to kill a fade is aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing.
Some people say:
B: You cant kill a fade cause they are to fast, they have to much hp and there to many on field @ 7 min mark.
B: has no aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing?
A: has no problems to kill 5 fades blinkíng around him?
The current fade is balanced for the top div1 players.
They can kill fades in an high organized enviroment for sure.
You dont have this enviroment on an 20 slot pub server.
Thats why 2 good fades can rape a marineteam alone there.
Fades are to fast in my opinion and there is still an solution missing against the massfading around 7min mark.
Extra stuff for marines or marine "skillmovement" didnt solve any of the current problems.
In regards to 7 minute fade ball/entire team fading: Why not tie lifeforms into the "population count(?)" that already exists in the game? Reduce crags/shifts/shades/whips/drifters cap hit on that x/200 limitation and add a bigger hit for each advanced life forms. As a comp player I already hate this idea though.
Some people say:
A: All you need to kill a fade is aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing.
Some people say:
B: You cant kill a fade cause they are to fast, they have to much hp and there to many on field @ 7 min mark.
B: has no aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing?
A: has no problems to kill 5 fades blinkíng around him?
The current fade is balanced for the top div1 players.
They can kill fades in an high organized enviroment for sure.
You dont have this enviroment on an 20 slot pub server.
Thats why 2 good fades can rape a marineteam alone there.
Fades are to fast in my opinion and there is still an solution missing against the massfading around 7min mark.
Extra stuff for marines or marine "skillmovement" didnt solve any of the current problems.
But how can you balance the fade for ALL players? If you weaken the fade the div 1 players will cry. If you dont't the pub players cry
Some people say:
A: All you need to kill a fade is aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing.
Some people say:
B: You cant kill a fade cause they are to fast, they have to much hp and there to many on field @ 7 min mark.
B: has no aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing?
A: has no problems to kill 5 fades blinkíng around him?
The current fade is balanced for the top div1 players.
They can kill fades in an high organized enviroment for sure.
You dont have this enviroment on an 20 slot pub server.
Thats why 2 good fades can rape a marineteam alone there.
Fades are to fast in my opinion and there is still an solution missing against the massfading around 7min mark.
Extra stuff for marines or marine "skillmovement" didnt solve any of the current problems.
But how can you balance the fade for ALL players? If you weaken the fade the div 1 players will cry. If you dont't the pub players cry
By making the game be about more in depth tactical decisions in combat like engaging with lerks first to weaken armor, umbra to help fades, gorges to heal/deal armor damage.
If you balance JUST fades, someone's going to be unhappy. If you rebalance all the lifeforms so you can get a good team synergy such that it's NOT optimal to go 5 fades and just try and shoot them down or if you fail, you lose.
Reduce skulks base speed a little. Reduce celerity effects but make celerity also increase with the amount of biomass you have.
Make babblers weaker on skulks and stronger on fades and maybe rebalance fades a little to reduce their armor without babblers then.
Make lerks more accurate or something so they can puncture armor easier.
Make onos more tanky and worth it, but more expensive so instead of 7min fades, 14 min onos - we might see 3 min lerk, 7 min fades, 16 min onos.
EDIT: THESE ARE IDEAS, NOT ENTIRELY WELL THOUGHT OUT AND PRECISE BALANCES. THE IDEA WAS TO SHOW THAT OTHER LIFEFORMS SHOULD BE TOUCHED, NOT FADE SO MUCH.
This thread has already dictated that 1 fade is not OP. This shows that fades are fairly balanced.
The problem is fade balls and so balancing the game such that 5 fades can't be optimal in 6v6.
Maybe the problem is 6v6 and it should be increased slightly to 8v8. Games small enough to require teamwork, large enough for a slight marine boost in firepower. But maybe commanders would have too much on their plate.
In NS1 the idea was to get as many onos or mass xeno to win. In NS1 combat it was to get mass fades since players could dom and it was a faster game play. In NS1 there was a reason not to get too close to an onos but in NS2 that’s not the case. In this case it seems as fade it the best way to go. Bring back devour put the fear back into marines when they see an onos. If this happened I’m sure you would see a lot more players going onos than fade.
when i played today we had 3 CC´s and around 8 exos going for the final push on the last hive...but little did we know was that 15 people was all saving up for fade and everyone went fade at the same time, dont forget the commander that dropped a fade egg to himself aswell. So forget skulkrushes or gorgefarms when you can have 16 persons killing an exo in 0.4 second. it does not matter if you have spent all your tres on multiple phasegates aka meatgrinders or 10 arcs or jetpacks or exos during the 7 minute mark becouse the fades will whipe out the humanity no matter what you have before you could even see the smoke
when i played today we had 3 CC´s and around 8 exos going for the final push on the last hive...but little did we know was that 15 people was all saving up for fade and everyone went fade at the same time, dont forget the commander that dropped a fade egg to himself aswell. So forget skulkrushes or gorgefarms when you can have 16 persons killing an exo in 0.4 second. it does not matter if you have spent all your tres on multiple phasegates aka meatgrinders or 10 arcs or jetpacks or exos during the 7 minute mark becouse the fades will whipe out the humanity no matter what you have before you could even see the smoke
sounds like you got slowplayed and weren't aggressive enough. also, exos have never been marine end tech. if I want to have fun I go railgun, if I want to win I go jp shotgun. same for aliens, if I want to have fun, I go gorge or skulk all game, if I want to win, I go fade. also bile bomb is in there too.
Comments
just wanted to point out that 50:50 is not and should not be the end goal. We were very close to that value several builds before 250, yet the massive changes were still designed and implemented. The end goal must incorporate a 50% probability of winning, but must also not be tactically stale or shallow. This means giving aliens other ways to win the game than a fade ball and/or gorge rush, and giving marines other ways to win than perfectly executed early pressure or grinding out a win.
THIS, THIS is why I hate the game right now.
I think fades just move too fast for your average pubber to track and hit.
Its just that simple.
Moving fast is a great way to lower the skill floor, and complements the HP and role of the fade, but it also impacts the enemy team's ability to track you.
Railguns cost the same amount of resources as a fade
For the experienced player who is already used to this and can track at these speeds, that circle puff obscures vision and messes up all the little fine tells that you need to work off. It messes with your ability to detect/predict movement vectors and precisely where to aim. Even if its 'very brief', it's actually alot relatively with how fast said lifeform is going, and how little time you have to get damage in. Most of the time, fade will be blink swiping through your fov in a second or less, and/or doing crazy movement etc. Don't even get me started on how hard it is to tell that fades are swipe -> blink upwards into the air since you can't tell their direction change very well (i abuse this alot).
In ns1, although it was very hard, you had more of a chance to track and kill fade with lmg. Any inability to track or move well was entirely your own fault. In ns2 however, the inability to track is often not - you just can't see clearly enough. This isn't really anything new though, just more of the same clashing between immersion and gameplay we frequently see.
I only wish more alien commanders would become good enough to pro-actively use rupture spam etc. all the time. Maybe then this general problem might become large enough that something gets done about all these particle effects and smoke fetishes. And while i'm rambling, just look at the effect for ghost structure poofing or structure death. Like what the heck, could you possibly use any more smoke?
But require additional research, and extra buildings.
- Also, by making lifeform prices dynamic - eg. 1st fade 40 res, 2nd 50 res and 3rd 60 res. That way the marginal utility of fades decreases always when one more player gets one.
-Or by making other lifeforms more viable. So, we should make gorges and onos more viable and mandatory(or fades less viable as a pack). One way to do that is to make it so that fades can only deal 25-50 dmg to structures instead of 75. That way there always has to be skulks, gorges or onos in the team so that aliens can destroy rts and other structures.
Of course those changes won't do the magic alone, but I think everyone can agree that the optimal team composition should be something like 2 gorges, 1 lerk, 2 fades and 1 onos - not 1 gorge, 1 lerk and 4 fades.
Dynamic stuff like that is boring for pubs because you can't play the class you want to play. Also 1 fade atm is extremely useless to play.
Your second point is what I completely agree with and have been trying to push through this entire thread.
Unfortunately that team composition doesn't look very good for killing marines so you'd have to balance out marine damage output or make fades slightly stronger (which would mean easier to pub stomp with 1 fade)
The issue quite simply isn't with single fades. It's with multiple fades running around together wiping anything in their way or, if it's too much, going round the other side of the map to wipe that down until marines are turtled in their base.
Exo -> just fadeball anyway.
Aliens basic unit is so strong right now (so agile with pretty good health), so here comes the fadeball.
Do those profades use that shadowstep? Havent seen in games.
So... a cheaper railgun which can be beaconed? Don't make it EASIER to kill fades or the games tips over and aliens lose so easy.
Make fades less viable and then make all other lifeforms incredibly more viable!
Well, shotgunner is more fragile too, and has only couple shots. Buy more with if u feel like, 10 res. It was just an idea. I would like it.
But a shotgunner is a short ranged burst gun.
Railgun is a long ranged burst gun.
What you are proposing is a railgun... which can be beaconed.
Basic shotgunner with 5 ex shells as a secondary shells. Buy from proto or AA with high cost.
When you buy a weapon made for close-range encounters, it in my opinion shouldn't be possible to then snipe with the other mouse button.
A: All you need to kill a fade is aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing.
Some people say:
B: You cant kill a fade cause they are to fast, they have to much hp and there to many on field @ 7 min mark.
B: has no aim, gamesense, teamplay and timing?
A: has no problems to kill 5 fades blinkíng around him?
The current fade is balanced for the top div1 players.
They can kill fades in an high organized enviroment for sure.
You dont have this enviroment on an 20 slot pub server.
Thats why 2 good fades can rape a marineteam alone there.
Fades are to fast in my opinion and there is still an solution missing against the massfading around 7min mark.
Extra stuff for marines or marine "skillmovement" didnt solve any of the current problems.
But how can you balance the fade for ALL players? If you weaken the fade the div 1 players will cry. If you dont't the pub players cry
Don't worry, Europe's got you covered!
By making the game be about more in depth tactical decisions in combat like engaging with lerks first to weaken armor, umbra to help fades, gorges to heal/deal armor damage.
If you balance JUST fades, someone's going to be unhappy. If you rebalance all the lifeforms so you can get a good team synergy such that it's NOT optimal to go 5 fades and just try and shoot them down or if you fail, you lose.
Reduce skulks base speed a little. Reduce celerity effects but make celerity also increase with the amount of biomass you have.
Make babblers weaker on skulks and stronger on fades and maybe rebalance fades a little to reduce their armor without babblers then.
Make lerks more accurate or something so they can puncture armor easier.
Make onos more tanky and worth it, but more expensive so instead of 7min fades, 14 min onos - we might see 3 min lerk, 7 min fades, 16 min onos.
EDIT: THESE ARE IDEAS, NOT ENTIRELY WELL THOUGHT OUT AND PRECISE BALANCES. THE IDEA WAS TO SHOW THAT OTHER LIFEFORMS SHOULD BE TOUCHED, NOT FADE SO MUCH.
This thread has already dictated that 1 fade is not OP. This shows that fades are fairly balanced.
The problem is fade balls and so balancing the game such that 5 fades can't be optimal in 6v6.
Maybe the problem is 6v6 and it should be increased slightly to 8v8. Games small enough to require teamwork, large enough for a slight marine boost in firepower. But maybe commanders would have too much on their plate.
sounds like you got slowplayed and weren't aggressive enough. also, exos have never been marine end tech. if I want to have fun I go railgun, if I want to win I go jp shotgun. same for aliens, if I want to have fun, I go gorge or skulk all game, if I want to win, I go fade. also bile bomb is in there too.