Creating a pro mod only further segregates the competitive and public community. The competitive community relies on the public side of the game as a recruitment pool; purposefully creating a seperate game just creates a further hurdle people must climb to play the game competitively.
It works well in games like COD where there is 5 billion players, but NS2... nah.
The simplest solution for the last few posts (which seemed to be leaning heavily towards comp play) is to simply have a (ENSL or whatever) comp mod that gives the desired results.
I think everyone agrees that, in NS2, small (especially comp) games and large games play completely different, so just embrace that fact and make the small games what you ( you being the comp community) want them to be. Once the changes are decided upon, then that mod would become Competitive NS2™. No sense trying to make the devs change the vanilla (chocolate?) version of the game to suit you when you can easily just implement the changes without them.
It could be as simple as just enforcing lifeform caps or as complicated as changing every aspect of the alien and/or marine res model (res for kill, changing costs, exponential res flow from number of towers etc) while leaving the base game mostly unchanged, or even as ambitious as reworking almost everything like Sewlek did.
Approved, I've made similar posts in different topics, it's good to know that there are other open minded players out there
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
At some point, if this doesnt kick up again after summer, I'd think this can be a good idea. I'm already a major proponent of friendly fire and thats a comp only change, why not other things if it really works out for both scenes?
Also, Bent, yes it's now chocolate ns2.
Vanilla (Release)-->Vanilla chip (Gorgeous)-->Chocolate (250)-->Chocolate fudge brownie (september content patch). The add-in to the chocolate is up for debate
Seconding this too. It's worked well for CS:GO and L4D2 for good reasons. I have no idea why there's actually opposition to something like this.
There's a small difference between those two games and NS2. They have a large playerbase.
It would be a good idea in order solve some of the problems that exist in competitive that aren't there in public play. It would, however, make it more difficult for new players to join the competitive scene than it already is.
I would say that's more of an issue with the enormous learning curve compounded by the lack of good, short tutorial videos and/or a training course (HL1 Hazard Course-like).
We already have one significant rule change in competitive matches, in that close spawns on Summit and Descent are disabled.
It might be a good idea to develop a pro mod that makes some changes with competitive in mind, but don't make it anything too major. The competitive scene must be fueled by new players coming from pubs, if the changes are too drastic it could create problems
Quake III literally had a pro mod which was used by the CPL and became the de facto style in leagues. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't almost every video game that is/was team based and played competitively have a slightly (at least) different rule set than (what's considered) standard public play?
But anyway, I'm honestly not concerned what the comp scene ends up doing since competitive league gaming always ends up feeling more like work rather than a hobby to me, even though I enjoy playing (and watching) competitive rounds of gaming. Regardless of the changes that do or don't get made I'll learn them and keep on playing but it would be kinda nice if there were distinct branches of pro (6v6) and pub/casual (8v8+) gametypes available so the two groups would have far less to argue about.
We already have one significant rule change in competitive matches, in that close spawns on Summit and Descent are disabled.
It might be a good idea to develop a pro mod that makes some changes with competitive in mind, but don't make it anything too major. The competitive scene must be fueled by new players coming from pubs, if the changes are too drastic it could create problems
Close spawns suck in pubs too. And if you need modifications in the base game for it to be considered properly competitive then that's a problem.
Confogl, Promod, Fresh... they keep renaming it. I think you were referring to the CEVO config in l4d1. Nonetheless, I get your point. The reason why we created mods back in L4D was because the devs were not that involved in the community. We HAD to change the game since vanilla L4D was stupid imbalanced. At least here, in NS2, we have devs who actually consider and apply our input. Separating the game into vanilla and a comp mod kinda defeats the purpose of UWE actually listening to us.
Anyway, although it sounds like a good idea on paper, I would much rather work with UWE to create a better vanilla game.
The difference is true that in L4D2 there isn't the developer support as with UWE and NS2. Yes, we can try to create the one game that combines both elements that would work for rookies and for competitive players, however I don't think this is possible.
Individual player skill is very important in terms of overall game play balance. Players that have <20hrs vs >800hrs make a difference if they are placed against each other. The balance is placed on the fact that units are somewhat of equal skill; teamwork can get you only so far. Not only will the >800hr player have more skill, but they will also have more strategic knowledge.
In L4D2 it was 4 players, yet even in pubs of L4D2 one highly skilled player could empty a server. I believe this problem is magnified in NS2 and sometimes worst due to more players and stacking (intentional or not).
The competitive version of NS2 should be the version that UWE should keep working on as it does now with the game - plus the feedback from experienced competitive players is great for game play balance. The vanilla version does not have to be as closely monitored, as once rookie players are done figuring out the game on those, and if by that time they enjoy the game, can invest time in the competitive version due to better players, 6v6, etc...That being said, the downward-fade-blink move and butt-hopping skulk were good removals for the overall game.
Now, in terms of separating the games into a competitive and 'rookie' version, that's another issue. I know in L4D2, from having played one of those competitive mods, confogl(think this is very old), fresh, they removed throwables, T2 weapons, medkits, increased SI spawn timers, tank every map...limiting players with what was already in the game and just giving competitive players a lot less forcing more focused teamwork.
We already have one significant rule change in competitive matches, in that close spawns on Summit and Descent are disabled.
It might be a good idea to develop a pro mod that makes some changes with competitive in mind, but don't make it anything too major. The competitive scene must be fueled by new players coming from pubs, if the changes are too drastic it could create problems
Close spawns suck in pubs too. And if you need modifications in the base game for it to be considered properly competitive then that's a problem.
Close spawns suck. Never had anyone in game say they were a good idea for gameplay or fun. But why no mention of any other changes in the mod/maps? :-?
correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't almost every video game that is/was team based and played competitively have a slightly (at least) different rule set than (what's considered) standard public play?
Also the "pogo/bunny hop" trick I've been seeing fades use more and more commonly recently doesn't require usage of energy (by that I mean it regenerates faster than used), allowing fades to burn it up at their destination and escape most of the time taking minimal damage, shotguns aren't very effective if the fade is already on the other side of the room.
I've recently discovered this trick as well. It it an exploit or is it intended to be like this? I like it but it seems pretty powerful.
You have to do this to be an effective/good fade. It is not a trick and it IS powerful haha
I never said it was an exploit, just possibly the greatest worst thing to come to the fade so far, the initial energy use for blink should probably be increased, or the speed decreased. I'm still all for switching blink and shadowstep back around, it will stop the early fade rushes until marines at least have time to get upgrades, then it's rape time.
It's Super Effective!Join Date: 2012-08-28Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
Finally, plenty of people seeing the benefits of the separate company mod. Leads to less posts about the games SURVIVAL and more posts about fun things to add and things to balance in thier respective pub/Comp scenes.
Definitely need to bring more attention to this so that UWE is aware of this great idea. Perhaps a separate sticky post?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
Wow. I'm a little bit speechless at how you can continue to claim that creating a separate game mode mod for competitive players is a good idea. I might write an essay here about why it is awful, why other games have done it, why NS2 doesn't need to do it and why it won't work. BRB.
Also the "pogo/bunny hop" trick I've been seeing fades use more and more commonly recently doesn't require usage of energy (by that I mean it regenerates faster than used), allowing fades to burn it up at their destination and escape most of the time taking minimal damage, shotguns aren't very effective if the fade is already on the other side of the room.
I've recently discovered this trick as well. It it an exploit or is it intended to be like this? I like it but it seems pretty powerful.
You have to do this to be an effective/good fade. It is not a trick and it IS powerful haha
I never said it was an exploit, just possibly the greatest worst thing to come to the fade so far, the initial energy use for blink should probably be increased, or the speed decreased. I'm still all for switching blink and shadowstep back around, it will stop the early fade rushes until marines at least have time to get upgrades, then it's rape time.
How will switching blink and shadowstep around again stop the fadeplosions? Fades are out earlier now simply because it's 40pres instead of 50pres.
Because without blink fades are pretty much useless, if it takes biomass to get blink it will take longer in the game to be able to get effective fades. As for the res, in this scenario that only changes how often you can get a fade.
Because without blink fades are pretty much useless, if it takes biomass to get blink it will take longer in the game to be able to get effective fades. As for the res, in this scenario that only changes how often you can get a fade.
Then the change is pointless, because no one will get fades before blink and you'll have the fadeplosion later on rather than earlier. If that's the goal (rather than to AVOID the fadeplosion altogether, which would be far better...), then the best way to achieve it is simply to raise the price of the fade.
I disagree in that regard, the pricepoint on fades seems decent, it would be much more tolerable for marines if they were just delayed a bit more until late game, not to have them reduced.
Because without blink fades are pretty much useless, if it takes biomass to get blink it will take longer in the game to be able to get effective fades. As for the res, in this scenario that only changes how often you can get a fade.
I figured you'd say that. And I strongly disagree.
The fadeplosion was a problem that emerged long before b250. Back then, fades only really needed ss. Blink was something nice to have later on, but hardly a neccessity. Which is why people went fade as soon as they got the res. The only fades who would wait for blink to evolve were the really bad ones. So switching ss/blink around will hardly change anything.
edit: or are you suggesting not to go back to the old ss/blink, but simply have the new ss as default? That would be even worse imo.
Fades are overpowered. I'm a new player, and easily manage to rack up kills with the fade. You just need to know how to bunny-hop to escape quickly, that's all. Yes, maybe a good marine can kill me, but if I see a good marine I just avoid him. There are enough other marines to kill. I'm laughing at people who think their 30:1 K/D is special. It's not hard at all.
Once you add a feature you really can't take it out, fades don't do much damage but their fair amount of health and easy ability to escape is what makes them "overpowered" in pub matches, which the way I see it pub is the most important as that's where everyone is playing after all. Pogo in with Aura, kill the weak players, blink out.
I've been personally playing as fade more recently because of how effective they are, blink and hopping is really all that's needed, shadow step is hardly an upgrade.
Confogl, Promod, Fresh... they keep renaming it. I think you were referring to the CEVO config in l4d1. Nonetheless, I get your point. The reason why we created mods back in L4D was because the devs were not that involved in the community. We HAD to change the game since vanilla L4D was stupid imbalanced. At least here, in NS2, we have devs who actually consider and apply our input. Separating the game into vanilla and a comp mod kinda defeats the purpose of UWE actually listening to us.
Anyway, although it sounds like a good idea on paper, I would much rather work with UWE to create a better vanilla game.
The difference is true that in L4D2 there isn't the developer support as with UWE and NS2. Yes, we can try to create the one game that combines both elements that would work for rookies and for competitive players, however I don't think this is possible.
Individual player skill is very important in terms of overall game play balance. Players that have <20hrs vs >800hrs make a difference if they are placed against each other. The balance is placed on the fact that units are somewhat of equal skill; teamwork can get you only so far. Not only will the >800hr player have more skill, but they will also have more strategic knowledge.
In L4D2 it was 4 players, yet even in pubs of L4D2 one highly skilled player could empty a server. I believe this problem is magnified in NS2 and sometimes worst due to more players and stacking (intentional or not).
The competitive version of NS2 should be the version that UWE should keep working on as it does now with the game - plus the feedback from experienced competitive players is great for game play balance. The vanilla version does not have to be as closely monitored, as once rookie players are done figuring out the game on those, and if by that time they enjoy the game, can invest time in the competitive version due to better players, 6v6, etc...That being said, the downward-fade-blink move and butt-hopping skulk were good removals for the overall game.
Now, in terms of separating the games into a competitive and 'rookie' version, that's another issue. I know in L4D2, from having played one of those competitive mods, confogl(think this is very old), fresh, they removed throwables, T2 weapons, medkits, increased SI spawn timers, tank every map...limiting players with what was already in the game and just giving competitive players a lot less forcing more focused teamwork.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
I've been personally playing as fade more recently because of how effective they are, blink and hopping is really all that's needed, shadow step is hardly an upgrade.
Shadow step isn't an upgrade. It should be replaced.
Once you add a feature you really can't take it out, fades don't do much damage but their fair amount of health and easy ability to escape is what makes them "overpowered" in pub matches, which the way I see it pub is the most important as that's where everyone is playing after all. Pogo in with Aura, kill the weak players, blink out.
I've been personally playing as fade more recently because of how effective they are, blink and hopping is really all that's needed, shadow step is hardly an upgrade.
I'm actually beginning to feel that I preferred the old Fade. Fade had a nice pacing to it, first you had Shadowstep, which scaled with how well you kept yourself moving with it and avoided bumping into anything. Then you got blink, (khamm depth, deciding when to get blink) and you got this shadowstep+blink comboing to move around.
Nowdays? Fade, blink once, spam space. ...........................that's about it. First it was fun, after that it's just derrrrrrrrp.
You'd think that maintaining great speeds has made fading easier, but it was never really about that. Bad fades are still bad fades, because they overstay their welcome. That's the leading cause of death for fades in the first place.
Can't help but add - same boredom with Skulk now that buttjumping is gone. Spam space. Sigh.
Shadowstep is pretty much useless with the way fades are currently. The only upgrade that might arguably be worse is Vortex, which more often then not actually helps the marines by giving them a free chance to reload or cool their guns.
I don't however understand this fixation on trying to make how one moves from point a to point b on the map take "skill". It's completely unnecessary. People should be more concerned with how "skill based" movement works in combat. It's funny how all the movement tutorial videos seem to leave that part out completely.
Fade in combat right now is a bit of dash and slash. You build up speed with blink, swipe a marine in passing, and then make a turn after you pass him and either make another pass or target a different marine or escape. It's actually a pretty interesting style for combat but all anybody ever talks about is bouncing around the map which will never be fun because you aren't engaged against another player.
I'm not against the bunny hopping dynamics, skulks it works out great, but with the fade how it is right now I think 250 really dropped the ball on this one, Pogoing space grandpa with blades right now is scaling "upgrades" backwards.
Blink> Shadow Step> Vortex (Do we even talk about that? Should it do damage or something?)
I like where the fade stands now in terms of damage/energy/price but it's got everything prepped and ready to go as soon as you hit 40 res, causing early game fadesplosions.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Im not confident shadow step is useless, it is however less in dire need.
I do not think for a moment that we should ever swap blink & shadowstep again. I personally, and I hope many more, find a fade starting with blink much more fun due to the better control in your movement. If it would be unbalanced, which I doubt, but IF.. we could finetune it in other areas but it is a much more fun way of moving.
Now shadowstep still does something. Its not 'needed' as blink is, but it still is a grand dodging mechanic. It can also be used for a welltimed lunge forward.
Shadowstep is instant and is much better able to cover ground to your target then blink is, asuming your target is in the actual step range.
I still think its the best change on the fade I experienced so far.
I'm really tired of seeing the Fades are OP posts. Get 2 marines who are decent shots together and add a little teamwork = dead fade. Anyone touting a 30:1 K/d in the last month has nothing to brag about. The amount of rookies flooding servers is crazy. These rookies come in and rambo everywhere, getting smashed by fades (and a lot of other aliens) and complain fades are OP. Welcome to a Teamwork centered game.
If you are having issues with fades early game there are a few possible problems:
1. You failed to pressure alien harvesters. Fades are out before shotguns/A1 are researched. (it can be done with Lmg, but requires a lot more skill)
2. Your comm has failed at timing and went turrets first instead of upgrades/weapons.
3. You pressured alien harvesters, you have your upgrades, and you just cant aim/ you don't play as a team. Apply med spam/nano shield.
Imo, fade is in a good place except for late game. Late game they lose a lot of their effectiveness against A3 jps and dual exos. Now i dont mind requiring bile bomb for said exos because gorges are so cheap, but fade is really the direct counter to the jp/weapon of your choice. Without gorge webs, focus, or devour jps can go unchecked. Lerks can try but really dont do the job and i rarely see an onos chasing a jp lol it is the other way around.
Comments
It works well in games like COD where there is 5 billion players, but NS2... nah.
Approved, I've made similar posts in different topics, it's good to know that there are other open minded players out there
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131097/the-game-is-slowly-dying-what-do-you-think-is-the-reason/p8
Also, Bent, yes it's now chocolate ns2.
Vanilla (Release)-->Vanilla chip (Gorgeous)-->Chocolate (250)-->Chocolate fudge brownie (september content patch). The add-in to the chocolate is up for debate
Seconding this too. It's worked well for CS:GO and L4D2 for good reasons. I have no idea why there's actually opposition to something like this.
There's a small difference between those two games and NS2. They have a large playerbase.
It would be a good idea in order solve some of the problems that exist in competitive that aren't there in public play. It would, however, make it more difficult for new players to join the competitive scene than it already is.
players not staying in the game,especially in the introduction stage leads to a dead game, players disinterested in competitive does not.
It might be a good idea to develop a pro mod that makes some changes with competitive in mind, but don't make it anything too major. The competitive scene must be fueled by new players coming from pubs, if the changes are too drastic it could create problems
Also, as Blarney_Stone mentioned, one has existed and overall highly endorsed for the last half year but it contains a bit more than just no random spawns... http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127235/nsl-comp-summit-tram-veil-descent
But anyway, I'm honestly not concerned what the comp scene ends up doing since competitive league gaming always ends up feeling more like work rather than a hobby to me, even though I enjoy playing (and watching) competitive rounds of gaming. Regardless of the changes that do or don't get made I'll learn them and keep on playing but it would be kinda nice if there were distinct branches of pro (6v6) and pub/casual (8v8+) gametypes available so the two groups would have far less to argue about.
But then, these forums might get kinda dull.
I agree with It's Super Affective.
The NS2 community would benefit from having the option of playing a 'vanilla NS2' and a separate 'competitive mod.'
This is how it works in L4D2 I believe, and was mentioned in more detailed by joshhh.
The difference is true that in L4D2 there isn't the developer support as with UWE and NS2. Yes, we can try to create the one game that combines both elements that would work for rookies and for competitive players, however I don't think this is possible.
Individual player skill is very important in terms of overall game play balance. Players that have <20hrs vs >800hrs make a difference if they are placed against each other. The balance is placed on the fact that units are somewhat of equal skill; teamwork can get you only so far. Not only will the >800hr player have more skill, but they will also have more strategic knowledge.
In L4D2 it was 4 players, yet even in pubs of L4D2 one highly skilled player could empty a server. I believe this problem is magnified in NS2 and sometimes worst due to more players and stacking (intentional or not).
The competitive version of NS2 should be the version that UWE should keep working on as it does now with the game - plus the feedback from experienced competitive players is great for game play balance. The vanilla version does not have to be as closely monitored, as once rookie players are done figuring out the game on those, and if by that time they enjoy the game, can invest time in the competitive version due to better players, 6v6, etc...That being said, the downward-fade-blink move and butt-hopping skulk were good removals for the overall game.
Now, in terms of separating the games into a competitive and 'rookie' version, that's another issue. I know in L4D2, from having played one of those competitive mods, confogl(think this is very old), fresh, they removed throwables, T2 weapons, medkits, increased SI spawn timers, tank every map...limiting players with what was already in the game and just giving competitive players a lot less forcing more focused teamwork.
Close spawns suck. Never had anyone in game say they were a good idea for gameplay or fun. But why no mention of any other changes in the mod/maps? :-?
Also
I never said it was an exploit, just possibly the greatest worst thing to come to the fade so far, the initial energy use for blink should probably be increased, or the speed decreased. I'm still all for switching blink and shadowstep back around, it will stop the early fade rushes until marines at least have time to get upgrades, then it's rape time.
Definitely need to bring more attention to this so that UWE is aware of this great idea. Perhaps a separate sticky post?
Cheers to all the open minded ns2 fans :-D
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131280/petition-develop-vanilla-ns2-separate-from-competative-scene#latest
Then the change is pointless, because no one will get fades before blink and you'll have the fadeplosion later on rather than earlier. If that's the goal (rather than to AVOID the fadeplosion altogether, which would be far better...), then the best way to achieve it is simply to raise the price of the fade.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131280/petition-develop-vanilla-ns2-separate-from-competative-scene#latest
Cheers,
ISE
I figured you'd say that. And I strongly disagree.
The fadeplosion was a problem that emerged long before b250. Back then, fades only really needed ss. Blink was something nice to have later on, but hardly a neccessity. Which is why people went fade as soon as they got the res. The only fades who would wait for blink to evolve were the really bad ones. So switching ss/blink around will hardly change anything.
edit: or are you suggesting not to go back to the old ss/blink, but simply have the new ss as default? That would be even worse imo.
I've been personally playing as fade more recently because of how effective they are, blink and hopping is really all that's needed, shadow step is hardly an upgrade.
Chocolate NS2*
Shadow step isn't an upgrade. It should be replaced.
I'm actually beginning to feel that I preferred the old Fade. Fade had a nice pacing to it, first you had Shadowstep, which scaled with how well you kept yourself moving with it and avoided bumping into anything. Then you got blink, (khamm depth, deciding when to get blink) and you got this shadowstep+blink comboing to move around.
Nowdays? Fade, blink once, spam space. ...........................that's about it. First it was fun, after that it's just derrrrrrrrp.
You'd think that maintaining great speeds has made fading easier, but it was never really about that. Bad fades are still bad fades, because they overstay their welcome. That's the leading cause of death for fades in the first place.
Can't help but add - same boredom with Skulk now that buttjumping is gone. Spam space. Sigh.
I don't however understand this fixation on trying to make how one moves from point a to point b on the map take "skill". It's completely unnecessary. People should be more concerned with how "skill based" movement works in combat. It's funny how all the movement tutorial videos seem to leave that part out completely.
Fade in combat right now is a bit of dash and slash. You build up speed with blink, swipe a marine in passing, and then make a turn after you pass him and either make another pass or target a different marine or escape. It's actually a pretty interesting style for combat but all anybody ever talks about is bouncing around the map which will never be fun because you aren't engaged against another player.
Blink> Shadow Step> Vortex (Do we even talk about that? Should it do damage or something?)
I like where the fade stands now in terms of damage/energy/price but it's got everything prepped and ready to go as soon as you hit 40 res, causing early game fadesplosions.
Could we get a developer take on this?
I do not think for a moment that we should ever swap blink & shadowstep again. I personally, and I hope many more, find a fade starting with blink much more fun due to the better control in your movement. If it would be unbalanced, which I doubt, but IF.. we could finetune it in other areas but it is a much more fun way of moving.
Now shadowstep still does something. Its not 'needed' as blink is, but it still is a grand dodging mechanic. It can also be used for a welltimed lunge forward.
Shadowstep is instant and is much better able to cover ground to your target then blink is, asuming your target is in the actual step range.
I still think its the best change on the fade I experienced so far.
If you are having issues with fades early game there are a few possible problems:
1. You failed to pressure alien harvesters. Fades are out before shotguns/A1 are researched. (it can be done with Lmg, but requires a lot more skill)
2. Your comm has failed at timing and went turrets first instead of upgrades/weapons.
3. You pressured alien harvesters, you have your upgrades, and you just cant aim/ you don't play as a team. Apply med spam/nano shield.
Imo, fade is in a good place except for late game. Late game they lose a lot of their effectiveness against A3 jps and dual exos. Now i dont mind requiring bile bomb for said exos because gorges are so cheap, but fade is really the direct counter to the jp/weapon of your choice. Without gorge webs, focus, or devour jps can go unchecked. Lerks can try but really dont do the job and i rarely see an onos chasing a jp lol it is the other way around.