SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited August 2013
I have noticed a pattern that may explain some reasons why it is balanced for comp games and less for public games. I've noticed that if Aliens don't have at least 1 decent/good fade they have a much higher chance of losing. Which partially explains why the game is more balanaced for competitive games where players are better than the average joe in publc games. Moreso in build 250 things were changed to make it so that having at least 1 fade on your team is more important to winning. IMO fades are OP when the fade is good, and in groups, which is probably the hardest lifeform to get good at for the average player. Comp players are good at fade.
No fades mean Marines don't die as often therefore aren't out being offensive and such. It means that jetpack Marines are less likely to die and kill less strong Aliens, and most importantly be aggressive. Kill JP Marines they lose 15 res, whe they lose res they can't get Exos and then dominate. Marines dying more often contributes to Aliens winning more often.
IMO Skulks are great but stuggle late game when Marines can get Jetpacks, Gorges, well they are very good when working together with others with bile and stuff. Lerks feel too fragile to face late game Marines by themselves or in groups. Onos seem too slow to do anything substantial to change the game.
Now, I'm just talking generally here, not really counting skill in this, coming from someone who has played a fair bit of combat, and daily on a 16-22 player count server with med/high skill players for more than 100 hours in 2 weeks the last month or two.
If you buff Marines then they become OP if your team doesn't have a quick assassin to kill Mariens when they buy stuff like gl's, ft's and even Exo's which the end up losing when they die therefore having less res for the fancy tech they have. I don't really know what to suggest about fixing it but just mentioning something I have noticed happens frequently.
The only thing I really don't like right now, and really frustrates me is that I feel that I get slaughtered by fades and other lifeforms not so much. Seems to be just 1 fade is all it takes to "carry" for lack of a better word, a whole Alien team, when the Marine team is mediocre/ average/not many good shots. Yeah I know people will say to get better and the team needs to work together better, but sometimes that is way too hard to do when no one listens. On the Marine side of things, when they get a few exos and maybe a gl and ft there is just so little you can do to stop it. It's like once Marines get Exo's it is substantually harder to win as Aliens. It's just hard to balance a game that has 2 different "sections" so to speak, comp and public games, and the amount of variation and different scenarios, you buff something to counter something, and while it may fix the problem in that scenario, it then becomes OP in other scenarios.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
fade problems on newbies is usually blink related.
Spend a few minutes explaining proper blink movement to a newbie and see that same rookie do a hell of a lot better as fade.
Same goes for marines. its not press and hold. Burst fire, move outside melee range of your buddy but stay close. Check corners, and all of a sudden marines die a hell of a lot less & have better chance to nail fade with burst shots anyway.
Fade isnt the real issue but the lack of good info for newbies INSIDE the game.
sounds like you got slowplayed and weren't aggressive enough. also, exos have never been marine end tech. if I want to have fun I go railgun, if I want to win I go jp shotgun. same for aliens, if I want to have fun, I go gorge or skulk all game, if I want to win, I go fade. also bile bomb is in there too.
Exos are definitely marine end game tech. The number of PCWs/Gathers I've won where we had one player save for a dual minigun when things looked tough is pretty high for the number of PCWs we've been playing in summer. And this is at EU Div 1 standard.
Dual miniguns should tear fades to shreds if positioned correctly and with adequate aim + assistance. (Almost like any kind of marine to kill a fade)
when i played today we had 3 CC´s and around 8 exos going for the final push on the last hive...but little did we know was that 15 people was all saving up for fade and everyone went fade at the same time, dont forget the commander that dropped a fade egg to himself aswell. So forget skulkrushes or gorgefarms when you can have 16 persons killing an exo in 0.4 second. it does not matter if you have spent all your tres on multiple phasegates aka meatgrinders or 10 arcs or jetpacks or exos during the 7 minute mark becouse the fades will whipe out the humanity no matter what you have before you could even see the smoke
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@desther
its called "rush there main base while they can not phasegate or beacon."
Also they can drop a new hive on the tech spot your aliens just trashed.
Counting in the actual comment you quoted...
If they have 15 persons who can go fade.. WTF have the marines been doing all match?
Either aliens did not use lifeforms and marines should have won vs skulks, or they had such a abundance of res that marines lost 5 mins ingame.
This thread really needs to be broken up into two separate topics.
1. Single fade is too powerful in pubs.
2. Fadeball is too powerful in comp.
Pretty sure the lone fade is in a good place right now as far as hp/energy so I disagree with argument 1. I do agree that the fade explosion in comp could use a change. (See rfk debate in balance test thread.)
I just had a fade shut down my entire team with a 33:0 k/d ratio. That's not even technically a ratio with zero deaths.
Strategy is pointless here. If a fade can assassinate your entire team, you lose. We had dual exos and three bases, but it didn't make a bit of difference.
I usually refrain from saying something is OP, needs to be nerfed, etc. But, I think Fades are just a little over the top right now. A great fade really is a game over, and an above average fade is worth half an alien team. While I believe they need to be powerful creatures, they either need to have a slight health nerf, or they need to be hittable while blinking around, like Fades of old were.
We have five exos up against two Fades earlier and we were unable to kill them, and I was playing with players in the average to above average categories. Of course, these Fades were good players, but still. I don't think anybody should be powerful enough with one species to consistently go 35:5 or something that outrageous. Just my two cents. As they stand, Fades should be able to be killed by a group of marines.
Right now, I'm less fearful of an Onos than I am a Fade, and that's not how it should be.
I usually refrain from saying something is OP, needs to be nerfed, etc. But, I think Fades are just a little over the top right now. A great fade really is a game over, and an above average fade is worth half an alien team. While I believe they need to be powerful creatures, they either need to have a slight health nerf, or they need to be hittable while blinking around, like Fades of old were.
We have five exos up against two Fades earlier and we were unable to kill them, and I was playing with players in the average to above average categories. Of course, these Fades were good players, but still. I don't think anybody should be powerful enough with one species to consistently go 35:5 or something that outrageous. Just my two cents. As they stand, Fades should be able to be killed by a group of marines.
Right now, I'm less fearful of an Onos than I am a Fade, and that's not how it should be.
Well, shouldn't a good fade be 'game over', just like a good marine is 'game over'? The window for dominating as marines is shorter, but when one player drastically outskills everyone else on the pub by leagues, I don't think you can avoid this.
5 exos not being able to kill 2 fades is a sign of bad aim - there shouldn't be any excuse for this with how powerful exo's still are. It only takes 15 minigun bullets to kill a fade, which is like 1 second, compared to 45-50 from lmg. A fade cannot engage even just one competent dual minigun, and killing it is truly out of the question. Even if he somehow manages to get one swipe and escape, who cares, you'll have a mac just weld you back up as the fade spends time healing at the hive. However, I do think this inability of exo's to kill fades is symptomatic of all the visual obstruction you have from minigun firing and blink effects combined together. It isn't easy for your average player to learn to adapt to all of this and shoot what they can't see.
35:5 does not sound that outrageous though . Actually sounds normal - lowish kpm, highish kdr. Fades are very much able to be killed by groups of marines. You can insta kill one with a few sg marines closely packed together. The 'OP' part is not so much because of any imbalance in the lifeform itself (although energy management is too easy), but because as mentioned by many posters before me because there are so many of them at the same time due to tech explosion. They have so much map mobility to ball up and pick off small groups of players, counter baserush, or grind unattended phasegates, to the point that you can't do any marine aggression whatsoever.
So on the pub you end up seeing long turtle games with fades picking off all the newbies who run out on their own etc. Any room with sentries is very easy to deny fades (since sentries basically aimbot alot of damage for you). Also, the 'counter' to fade ball being turtle to organised jp zerging -> beacon is beyond the reach of quite alot of comp play, let alone pub play.
Just close this thread already. People are gonna use it to rehash thesame silly discussion over and over again whenever they see a fade getting an "outrageous" K/D ratio.
I just had a fade shut down my entire team with a 33:0 k/d ratio. That's not even technically a ratio with zero deaths.
Strategy is pointless here. If a fade can assassinate your entire team, you lose. We had dual exos and three bases, but it didn't make a bit of difference.
that's one of those learn to shoot and learn to mepack moments. you put a clip into a fade, and if hes good, hell run, grab a shottie and a good fade will run after one meatshot. a single fade takes a good deal of time to swipe down armor 2... and nano and medding are enough to keep a marine alive.
5 exos not being able to kill 2 fades is a sign of bad aim - there shouldn't be any excuse for this with how powerful exo's still are. It only takes 15 minigun bullets to kill a fade, which is like 1 second, compared to 45-50 from lmg.
2 well placed railgun shots also does the trick. A good railgunner vs. a good fade is about 50:50, and they both cost 40 res. Of course, a really good fade won't be engaging an exo until death.
There's no excuse in that scenario. Five exos should take down two fades very easily. Hell, you could end the game right there. These two fades won't be taking down the marine base, and they wouldn't dare touch the pack of exos if they had good aim.
The 'OP' part is not so much because of any imbalance in the lifeform itself (although energy management is too easy), but because as mentioned by many posters before me because there are so many of them at the same time due to tech explosion. They have so much map mobility to ball up and pick off small groups of players, counter baserush, or grind unattended phasegates, to the point that you can't do any marine aggression whatsoever.
Exactly. And the only reason they can destroy bases is because there are lots of them. One fade cannot break a base by itself (unless marines leave the fade untouched); it does less damage than a skulk or lerk on structures.
Energy management in combat is not so easy. It is for travelling, that's true, but old shadowstep+double jump was also cheap. If you stay too long in combat, you won't have energy for blinking -> no momentum -> gotta walk -> easy target.
that's one of those learn to shoot and learn to mepack moments. you put a clip into a fade, and if hes good, hell run, grab a shottie and a good fade will run after one meatshot. a single fade takes a good deal of time to swipe down armor 2... and nano and medding are enough to keep a marine alive.
There's no doubt that we could have won with better playing, but it bothers me that a single player can dominate the others so easily. To a certain extent it's true for marines as well, but perhaps not as noticeable since you can at least swarm a marine and take them down. A good fade can run away from noobs every time.
that's one of those learn to shoot and learn to mepack moments. you put a clip into a fade, and if hes good, hell run, grab a shottie and a good fade will run after one meatshot. a single fade takes a good deal of time to swipe down armor 2... and nano and medding are enough to keep a marine alive.
There's no doubt that we could have won with better playing, but it bothers me that a single player can dominate the others so easily. To a certain extent it's true for marines as well, but perhaps not as noticeable since you can at least swarm a marine and take them down. A good fade can run away from noobs every time.
similarly, a good railgun can go through a rookie alien team like butter. i've done it, gone something like 50+ kills on a single railgun exo... as long as you don't encounter an onos, it's pretty hard not to shoot everything else that moves. most good skulks are a joke to a railgun unless they organize a 4-5 man rush. lerks need to actively watch out for pinches by railguns. and fades need at least one other buddy to deal with it effectively. gorges... yeah. also long range sniping is soo fun.
Complaining about exo/fade/skulk balance in a 32 player server? We should totally balance each life-form around those games. Totally.
No the single and most damaging factor of this game was UWE should never have tried to balance it for a 6v6 game.
If this game lasts as long as NS1, though I doubt it, 5 or 7 years down the line we won’t be having championships with teams as a 6v6 game. It’s going to turn into a completely pub game as it’s already happening.
Comments
No fades mean Marines don't die as often therefore aren't out being offensive and such. It means that jetpack Marines are less likely to die and kill less strong Aliens, and most importantly be aggressive. Kill JP Marines they lose 15 res, whe they lose res they can't get Exos and then dominate. Marines dying more often contributes to Aliens winning more often.
IMO Skulks are great but stuggle late game when Marines can get Jetpacks, Gorges, well they are very good when working together with others with bile and stuff. Lerks feel too fragile to face late game Marines by themselves or in groups. Onos seem too slow to do anything substantial to change the game.
Now, I'm just talking generally here, not really counting skill in this, coming from someone who has played a fair bit of combat, and daily on a 16-22 player count server with med/high skill players for more than 100 hours in 2 weeks the last month or two.
If you buff Marines then they become OP if your team doesn't have a quick assassin to kill Mariens when they buy stuff like gl's, ft's and even Exo's which the end up losing when they die therefore having less res for the fancy tech they have. I don't really know what to suggest about fixing it but just mentioning something I have noticed happens frequently.
The only thing I really don't like right now, and really frustrates me is that I feel that I get slaughtered by fades and other lifeforms not so much. Seems to be just 1 fade is all it takes to "carry" for lack of a better word, a whole Alien team, when the Marine team is mediocre/ average/not many good shots. Yeah I know people will say to get better and the team needs to work together better, but sometimes that is way too hard to do when no one listens. On the Marine side of things, when they get a few exos and maybe a gl and ft there is just so little you can do to stop it. It's like once Marines get Exo's it is substantually harder to win as Aliens. It's just hard to balance a game that has 2 different "sections" so to speak, comp and public games, and the amount of variation and different scenarios, you buff something to counter something, and while it may fix the problem in that scenario, it then becomes OP in other scenarios.
Spend a few minutes explaining proper blink movement to a newbie and see that same rookie do a hell of a lot better as fade.
Same goes for marines. its not press and hold. Burst fire, move outside melee range of your buddy but stay close. Check corners, and all of a sudden marines die a hell of a lot less & have better chance to nail fade with burst shots anyway.
Fade isnt the real issue but the lack of good info for newbies INSIDE the game.
It is feasible to have 4-5 fades. It is the most common lifeform. It is currently optimal in 6v6.
Exos are definitely marine end game tech. The number of PCWs/Gathers I've won where we had one player save for a dual minigun when things looked tough is pretty high for the number of PCWs we've been playing in summer. And this is at EU Div 1 standard.
Dual miniguns should tear fades to shreds if positioned correctly and with adequate aim + assistance. (Almost like any kind of marine to kill a fade)
How can you have 8 exos and not win vs 15 skulks?
its called "rush there main base while they can not phasegate or beacon."
Also they can drop a new hive on the tech spot your aliens just trashed.
Counting in the actual comment you quoted...
If they have 15 persons who can go fade.. WTF have the marines been doing all match?
Either aliens did not use lifeforms and marines should have won vs skulks, or they had such a abundance of res that marines lost 5 mins ingame.
1. Single fade is too powerful in pubs.
2. Fadeball is too powerful in comp.
Pretty sure the lone fade is in a good place right now as far as hp/energy so I disagree with argument 1. I do agree that the fade explosion in comp could use a change. (See rfk debate in balance test thread.)
Strategy is pointless here. If a fade can assassinate your entire team, you lose. We had dual exos and three bases, but it didn't make a bit of difference.
We have five exos up against two Fades earlier and we were unable to kill them, and I was playing with players in the average to above average categories. Of course, these Fades were good players, but still. I don't think anybody should be powerful enough with one species to consistently go 35:5 or something that outrageous. Just my two cents. As they stand, Fades should be able to be killed by a group of marines.
Right now, I'm less fearful of an Onos than I am a Fade, and that's not how it should be.
5 exos not being able to kill 2 fades is a sign of bad aim - there shouldn't be any excuse for this with how powerful exo's still are. It only takes 15 minigun bullets to kill a fade, which is like 1 second, compared to 45-50 from lmg. A fade cannot engage even just one competent dual minigun, and killing it is truly out of the question. Even if he somehow manages to get one swipe and escape, who cares, you'll have a mac just weld you back up as the fade spends time healing at the hive. However, I do think this inability of exo's to kill fades is symptomatic of all the visual obstruction you have from minigun firing and blink effects combined together. It isn't easy for your average player to learn to adapt to all of this and shoot what they can't see.
35:5 does not sound that outrageous though
So on the pub you end up seeing long turtle games with fades picking off all the newbies who run out on their own etc. Any room with sentries is very easy to deny fades (since sentries basically aimbot alot of damage for you). Also, the 'counter' to fade ball being turtle to organised jp zerging -> beacon is beyond the reach of quite alot of comp play, let alone pub play.
Uhm, they are...
that's one of those learn to shoot and learn to mepack moments. you put a clip into a fade, and if hes good, hell run, grab a shottie and a good fade will run after one meatshot. a single fade takes a good deal of time to swipe down armor 2... and nano and medding are enough to keep a marine alive.
2 well placed railgun shots also does the trick. A good railgunner vs. a good fade is about 50:50, and they both cost 40 res. Of course, a really good fade won't be engaging an exo until death.
There's no excuse in that scenario. Five exos should take down two fades very easily. Hell, you could end the game right there. These two fades won't be taking down the marine base, and they wouldn't dare touch the pack of exos if they had good aim.
Exactly. And the only reason they can destroy bases is because there are lots of them. One fade cannot break a base by itself (unless marines leave the fade untouched); it does less damage than a skulk or lerk on structures.
Energy management in combat is not so easy. It is for travelling, that's true, but old shadowstep+double jump was also cheap. If you stay too long in combat, you won't have energy for blinking -> no momentum -> gotta walk -> easy target.
I don't think there is a proper counter to fadeballs at the moment.
Just reiterating your suggestion.
There's no doubt that we could have won with better playing, but it bothers me that a single player can dominate the others so easily. To a certain extent it's true for marines as well, but perhaps not as noticeable since you can at least swarm a marine and take them down. A good fade can run away from noobs every time.
similarly, a good railgun can go through a rookie alien team like butter. i've done it, gone something like 50+ kills on a single railgun exo... as long as you don't encounter an onos, it's pretty hard not to shoot everything else that moves. most good skulks are a joke to a railgun unless they organize a 4-5 man rush. lerks need to actively watch out for pinches by railguns. and fades need at least one other buddy to deal with it effectively. gorges... yeah. also long range sniping is soo fun.
No the single and most damaging factor of this game was UWE should never have tried to balance it for a 6v6 game.
If this game lasts as long as NS1, though I doubt it, 5 or 7 years down the line we won’t be having championships with teams as a 6v6 game. It’s going to turn into a completely pub game as it’s already happening.