Get 2 marines who are decent shots together and add a little teamwork = dead fade
Yes, because these two marines can be anywhere on the map, and there is of course only one fade in the entire game and no other aliens. Lol
Late game they lose a lot of their effectiveness against A3 jps and dual exos
Well if the marines have dual exos, it's too late anyway, but ""thankfully"" that doesn't happen too often.
So you would allow two "good shots" to proceed around the map unmolested all the way to your hive? Might be why you are losing. Also when i say 2 marines to 1 fade, i am simply stating that in a moment of combat two marines can take down any fade with proper aim (with the proper equipment and upgrades or with skill when those are lacking). Generally marines out number fades in pubs. I have never seen 10 fades on a 20 player server... ever... even end game. 4 max and that jives with my 2:1 numbers. Oh, i forgot to add "lol". Seems to make my point all the more blatant somehow.
Marines getting dual exos isnt the end. It just means they have 2 bases which is a usual game. 2 fully tech'd out teams isnt unheard of in 5 tech point maps.
TL:DR @anonymousUS Calm down. My L2P wasnt directed at everyone. Sometimes less skillful players such as myself need A1 and Shotguns to solo a fade. Without it even i have to rely on teamwork
. Also when i say 2 marines to 1 fade, i am simply stating that in a moment of combat two marines can take down any fade with proper aim
I really don't agree with this. The Fade can easily escape before they can even do enough damage to hurt the fade. It only works if the fade makes a mistake (Like getting stuck or whatever).
. Also when i say 2 marines to 1 fade, i am simply stating that in a moment of combat two marines can take down any fade with proper aim
I really don't agree with this. The Fade can easily escape before they can even do enough damage to hurt the fade. It only works if the fade makes a mistake (Like getting stuck or whatever).
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. If we add welders you have denied a 40 res unit with 2 marines who have enough time to weld up and get medpacks. It is a stalemate to equal skilled players. Nothing OP about it. Now if the fade was able to take out both marines with med spam and decent aim, we would have an issue. This is not the case. The fade can easily escape sure, but it means s/he loses territory, position, and time. A 40+ res unit is delayed by 2 free ones. Now add in = res units. A JP shotgun is quite the match for a vanilla fade. Assuming equal skill it would be a fun match to see. It would come down to positioning and experience.
I think the fade is in a good spot (early-mid game) with proper comming on both sides.
I still hate new fade. It's just bunnyhop bunnyhop and bunnyhop. Aircontrol feels retarted. Sometimes it feels that marines are more agile in close combat even when you have suprised lonely lmg marine. So swipe, bunnyhophophop away and come back. Shadowstep feels like more confusion to own play than confusing opponent. I dont even fear fades if im with my shotgun, unless there's others around. Or he is godlike player.
The new Fade feels awfull, this thing is not deadly it is a weak, funny looking, bunnyhopping creature that have to flee everytime it meet more than two marines. And it runs out of energy way to fast.
Since b250 the only lifeforms I consider to evolve in is skulk, Gorge or Onos.
The fade is not OP.
The fade is not weak. The fade, like every other class, is only as strong as the person controlling it.
Can we close this ridiculous thread now?
You're right. But.... with regards to fadeplosion, the only way (without changing resource mechanics) would be to nerf fade and increase the support viability of the lerk. It shouldn't be that optimal to go 4-5 fades and nor should we just increase the support role of the lerk without affecting the fade because then we'd have equal fades but fewer with more survivability.
But likewise, if it's easier to kill fades then the pivot of the game swings in marines favour and they'll wipe through skulks easily to dominate the map before either the next wave of fades or marines finish the game.
I've been indisposed the last 5 days so I haven't been able to dispute every point in this thread but I don't see much in the way of arguing my point that skulks need to scale better for late game. You argued that they scale equally with LMG marines but they don't. I'll repost my maths.
Assuming 2 hives (full biomass) vs W3, skulks survive 2 extra bullets again lmg marines. 6 biomass x 4hp = 24hp. 84 hp + 10 armor = 104 hp = 8 W3 bullets. With carapace it's 11 bullets. (This is why you need fades and losing them causes marines to steamroll)
At 0 upgrades for each. It's 9 bullets to kill a skulk.
Remember that A2 it takes 4 bites and A3 takes 4 (5 with 1 med pack).
Skulks are pants mid game - late game which is one reason why we see all skulks turn into fades. They have the damage and hp to take engagements, mobility to go grind down RTs (if they stick together) and also PGs.
I would not call a W2 or W3 lmg marine a distraction. They are very good at killing structures still and are useful for chipping fades on the approach and exit of engagements. They are also good for lerks and onos engagements without jetpacks when you need to spread marines and keep distance. 3 LMG W3 marines have a potenial 1950 damage output (excluding pistols) that's **** scary for harvesters/upgrades/hives. Coupled with the med support on A3, it takes 6 bites (perfect timing bites, med spam with delays). With an average 20% accuracy you'd see 390 damage output, that's dangerous for fades.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Skulks scale how they should in my opinion. They can gain some ground to bite lmg marines with upgrades and still get raped with a shotgun in the area.
Skulk needs to be VERY difficult to use effectively outside of res-biting situations mid to late game. They SHOULD be nearly useless.
So let's randomly add or remove 50 HP from the lifeform
This wonderfully insightful analysis still applies
How about we don't? Sewlek already played around with the armor and hp values of the fade for months before 250 went live.
I can attest to that. There were points where the Fade had as little as 230 hp / 20 armor (can't remember exact numbers, but it was very low), and it was awful. So bad, in fact, that everyone who knew about it either went Lerk or saved for Onos, both of which were weaker than 249 (not necessarily in HP) but at least could take a marine down on their own.
Sewlek also tried buffing the shotgun damage. At one point it dealt heavy damage (the same as minigun exos). It was bad too, because it would either be too weak vs. skulks or too powerful vs. everything.
I'm pretty sure those Fades that go like 50-2 will also go like 40-7 as marine. "Nerf good players" will never happen.
Skulks scale how they should in my opinion. They can gain some ground to bite lmg marines with upgrades and still get raped with a shotgun in the area.
Skulk needs to be VERY difficult to use effectively outside of res-biting situations mid to late game. They SHOULD be nearly useless.
Then the game just turns into "Can you kill the fades?"
Yes --> You push and win unless you majestically fuck up
No --> GG marines.
Skulks scale how they should in my opinion. They can gain some ground to bite lmg marines with upgrades and still get raped with a shotgun in the area.
Skulk needs to be VERY difficult to use effectively outside of res-biting situations mid to late game. They SHOULD be nearly useless.
Then the game just turns into "Can you kill the fades?"
Yes --> You push and win unless you majestically fuck up
No --> GG marines.
Skulks scale how they should in my opinion. They can gain some ground to bite lmg marines with upgrades and still get raped with a shotgun in the area.
Skulk needs to be VERY difficult to use effectively outside of res-biting situations mid to late game. They SHOULD be nearly useless.
Then the game just turns into "Can you kill the fades?"
Yes --> You push and win unless you majestically fuck up
No --> GG marines.
That's always been the name of the game lol
When tres fades were 50, it wasn't. It was more than just kill fades because you had to make sure their res was down so they couldnt drop eggs like mad.
I'm not saying that 50 tres fade eggs were good, i'm just saying that the game is definitely more centered around killing the wave of fades now.
Is it a good thing that the game is like this? I don't think so and I'd like to see it changed but if everyone else thinks it's good then I'm happy to play on.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Here is a small story i experienced last night on an US server:
I was com and one fade was killing the marines non stop.
Dropping medpacks like and idiot on fully upgraded marines with shotguns and nanoshields - nothing help.
I said "You have to trap the fade" - nothing changed.
So i jumped out of the chair, walk through the half map and wait for fade the @ hive.
He came in, bam, dead.
Oh , it was the wrong fade. Hmm, ok.
So i jumped into the chair again.
Meanwhile the good fade didnt stop to rape the marines.
So i jumped out again.
Someone said "we have no com, what are you doing".
My answer "Im killing this fade now"
The fade came and died in around 3 seconds on 2 fully hit shotgun blasts. No medpack, no nanoshield was needed.
I went back to my chair and jumped in
This story isnt to tell you that im the uber-pro (wich im not for sure).
All you need is:
- a bit gamesense (escape ways of the fade)
- a bit teamplay (1 lmg player plays decoy while a shotgun player is waiting around the corner)
- a bit help of the com (medpacks, nanoshield, scans)
- a bit coordination over mic (Where are the fades, which way are they escaping)
- and a bit aim
In combinations a solo "killingmachine" transform into an "useless" class.
Sad thing is:
Most player missing everything from above.
Another story are 4 fades with an umbra lerk running around the map.
So let's randomly add or remove 50 HP from the lifeform
This wonderfully insightful analysis still applies
How about we don't? Sewlek already played around with the armor and hp values of the fade for months before 250 went live.
I can attest to that. There were points where the Fade had as little as 230 hp / 20 armor (can't remember exact numbers, but it was very low), and it was awful. So bad, in fact, that everyone who knew about it either went Lerk or saved for Onos, both of which were weaker than 249 (not necessarily in HP) but at least could take a marine down on their own.
Sewlek also tried buffing the shotgun damage. At one point it dealt heavy damage (the same as minigun exos). It was bad too, because it would either be too weak vs. skulks or too powerful vs. everything.
I'm pretty sure those Fades that go like 50-2 will also go like 40-7 as marine. "Nerf good players" will never happen.
You can't enter a balance discussion with ridiculous statements like "it's not OP because it depends on player skill!1!!!11" because that applies no matter what the stats actually are
Your idea about good fades vs good marines shows how little you understand the broader situation in a random pub.
Marines need aim + teamwork + comm support + game experience + expensive PCs + visual configs + techs
Fades need game experience and usually have the tech advantage relative to marines.
guess which one you find more often? hint: it's on the scoreboard in pubs
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited July 2013
In my opinion the game should play such that if you kill the fades, you win. But that should not be able to be your sole purpose.
What is making fade-killing such a focal point is not the fade itself, there's other factors such as gorge cost and 1-hive bile that make it so that even if marines deny a 2nd hive the aliens are still in position to win. The focus is no longer on the 2nd hive because it does not unlock the abilities, straight across the board, which allow the aliens to turn their defensive role to an offensive role. That being bile and umbra.
So, since the aliens are not forced to defend their second hive point, they can make decisions where they move to other parts of the map and attack phase gates etc that they WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO ATTACK, simply because they were able to sacrifice their second hive. This removes marine pressure teams and induces phase gate "turtles." (The NECESSITY of them, really, when playing better alien players)
Now, aliens are focusing on upgrades and dropping hives later, where the hives should be going down no sooner/later on average than fades are coming out, and the fades should be FORCED into a defensive role (This being meta-talk. Of course aliens can just have played well enough to get into an offensive position within 4 minutes) This works well with the current features because gorge tunnels in the 2nd hive, the hive, a dc, and gorge building are what should be keeping the fades healed and a relatively low-upgrade marines out of the hive. (Along with the fades. This is why sieges were so intense.) This is also a point where shotguns come out and the marines can choose between siege and attack.
So what can be done to push bile and umbra back to 2 hives without making early shotguns too overpowered? (Suggestions: 1. Projectile spores and a spike nerf, 2. Skulk speed increase, just some initial thoughts. Spores seriously hinder marine economy making low armor phase "turtles" as mentioned before less viable, skulk speed increase because we are sacrificing some alien map presence decision making ability by dictating their tempo more)
edit: I forgot to mention that these are major reasons for the length of current round times
While your point is somewhat valid, the methods of describing the problem are completely untrue. Aliens can be holding 2 hives and still non-stop hit phasegates, and marines have absolutely 0 chance of pushing until jetpacks (or killing fades). Fades can still move way to fast for way too little an energy cost, and the second marines leave any gate undefended its instantly being grinded. Most teams even struggle to hold 2 gates with turrets and macs on each one, which is generally where the game gets decided. If the aliens cannot push the 2 turtle gates, they eventually loose to jetpacks. The problem of turtling the gates is not from the aliens having nothing to defend, its just that they can play so offensively the instant fades are out.
Beyond that, increasing skulk speed would be a very bad idea given the binary nature of early game combat, marines are really already at a disadvantage through most of the game, 0-6 minutes and then again at ~9-20+.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I didn't want to touch on fade explosion really, but of course:
Yes you're right. It's not an end all be all situation where not having umbra and bile bomb make it impossible to do anything but defend the 2nd hive. I just meant those as two points, as I mentioned two fixes later, two felt reasonable. So when the fades come out in a pack of four they DO get to make that decision still.
So my main idea in that post is about narrowing what an alien team can expect to do early game, theoretically broadening marine options. Frankly with the fade explosion i don't know what to tell you. Even if they don't explode into 4 fades, if you're ending up with 4 fades between 8-12 minutes on a team it's hard to say what to do to stop them and force them to defend. Because.. Why would 4 fades defend, they're 4 fades.
I don't think a raise in skulk bunnyhop speed cap would change the game from how it currently plays. It only has a significant change in play on the first engagement because it changes the locations where marines skulks meet on very map and clearly can't be balanced around that fact. I guess people just don't aim like they used to (myself included). But with the increase in skulk mobility in NS2 (actual wall control) i suppose you're right about their early disadvantage. I'd like to see that change somehow. No shotgun research needed? (I mean, a shotgun rush is a shotgun rush. I don't think teams would abuse this and I don't think it would kill pubs. But it doesn't sound like a good idea to me either haha)
And I suppose you're not against the spores before umbra?
Very recently with the introduction of b251, I've found my team doing a much better job against fades.
I still don't think that the objective of the game should switch from killing the hives to killing fades and so I believe that the game should be changed so the best team configuration isn't 4-5 fades. I do think more time needs to be spent playing the game to understand the effects this latest build has had because personally, I'm seeing more marine wins now.
My personal opinion is the fade bomb usually comes out when you have wep 2 armr 2 (whatever up path you take) these are some steps I usually take to deal with them.
If fades are harrassing front lines, off your rt's (min 3) off your phase. Keep upgrading and happy days.
If getting totally owned by 1 or 2 fades you need yolo strats. Eg skip wep 3 and armr 3 skip jp's and go exo. Try for duals not necessary. find a foward base eg (pipe chair, the dome pg Armoury obs) aliens will attack your main or forward base with enough pressure. If you can get arcs up the focus for them will be that forward base if your scared and res is low keep an exo in your main at all times.
As a comm im usually scared to see 3-4 gorge pushes because becon can ruin your map control. The hard counter for fades is the exo. They dont have to die but If you cant control them and keep map control usually its gg
Side note nano is a slight counter to fades if you go jp shotty
My personal opinion is the fade bomb usually comes out when you have wep 2 armr 2 (whatever up path you take) these are some steps I usually take to deal with them.
If fades are harrassing front lines, off your rt's (min 3) off your phase. Keep upgrading and happy days.
If getting totally owned by 1 or 2 fades you need yolo strats. Eg skip wep 3 and armr 3 skip jp's and go exo. Try for duals not necessary. find a foward base eg (pipe chair, the dome pg Armoury obs) aliens will attack your main or forward base with enough pressure. If you can get arcs up the focus for them will be that forward base if your scared and res is low keep an exo in your main at all times.
As a comm im usually scared to see 3-4 gorge pushes because becon can ruin your map control. The hard counter for fades is the exo. They dont have to die but If you cant control them and keep map control usually its gg
Side note nano is a slight counter to fades if you go jp shotty
If you have 2-2 before fade bomb, you've been doing a fantastic job against those skulks and the alien harvesters
If the fades have the chance, they'll go for your PG to deny you map control. They'll happily sacrifice 1 harvester to get that phase gate down because once that's down, they can wipe the pressure and re-drop harvesters.
If you defend the pg with 2 marines and the fades decide not to engage there, they'll probably wipe out the pressure and get the res biting skulk through and tear down your RTs until the marines reposition themselves leaving the phasegate the weak link.
I agree that exos are a soft counter to fades but getting to exos is mighty expensive in tres terms and when fades come out at 7 minute mark (3 harvesters) you're going to lose a fair bit of ground and resource towers.
However, just because you have a pg in dome doesn't mean that the aliens HAVE to clear it unless cargo is their only hive. The fades will go together taking down marine res until there is pressure inside of cargo to wipe. If they win that engagement they can go straight to the dome pg and grind.
ARCs are another resource drain and with the number of encounters happening with the quick mobility of fades, you'll need res to support marines with meds and nano. When you start taking down those fades, the res intensive support drops and you can finally start teching at a reasonable rate.
I usually keep a shotgun on me when I'm in the comm chair unless I can reasonably reach jetpacks. The 3-4 gorge push means that my marines on the field can successfully push something and I always have at least 1 who is able to phase back to base to help me kill the gorges.
Nano is a good counter if you time it right before the fade swipes and the fades don't immediately leave the engagement. What I've noticed with some teams is that the fade going for the nano shielded marine will leave but the others will stay making it easier for my marines to pick one off.
So let's randomly add or remove 50 HP from the lifeform
This wonderfully insightful analysis still applies
How about we don't? Sewlek already played around with the armor and hp values of the fade for months before 250 went live.
I can attest to that. There were points where the Fade had as little as 230 hp / 20 armor (can't remember exact numbers, but it was very low), and it was awful. So bad, in fact, that everyone who knew about it either went Lerk or saved for Onos, both of which were weaker than 249 (not necessarily in HP) but at least could take a marine down on their own.
Sewlek also tried buffing the shotgun damage. At one point it dealt heavy damage (the same as minigun exos). It was bad too, because it would either be too weak vs. skulks or too powerful vs. everything.
I'm pretty sure those Fades that go like 50-2 will also go like 40-7 as marine. "Nerf good players" will never happen.
You can't enter a balance discussion with ridiculous statements like "it's not OP because it depends on player skill!1!!!11" because that applies no matter what the stats actually are
Your idea about good fades vs good marines shows how little you understand the broader situation in a random pub.
Listen. I have played close to 900 hours of NS2. Stating that "I understand very little about the broader situation in a random pub" just doesn't work. I played countless pub games in addition to competitive, with all sorts of people, from absolute beginners to double team stacks to trolls. I've killed all sorts of Fades. I've died as a Fade dozens of times, sometimes for being stupid, sometimes for being outplayed, sometimes for being out-teched. The fact is, killing a Fade requires more than just being rambo. It requires you to be smart, just as being a Fade requires you to be very careful.
Fades in the right hands are just as OP as very good marines with shotguns and jetpacks (or exos).
You make it seem like the moment good Fades are out, aliens auto-win. That is not true at all.
Marines need aim + teamwork + comm support + game experience + expensive PCs + visual configs + techs
Fades need game experience and usually have the tech advantage relative to marines.
For killing a Fade, you absolutely need aim, game experience and tech. Everything else is optional but greatly helpful.
People have already talked about the res costs. Fades are 40 + 5 for each upgrade. Shotguns are 20. Jetpacks are 15. Rail/minigun exos with claw are 40 res. Think about it for a moment.
If you don't have at the very least A1, W1 and shotgun by the point Fades come out, your commander/team is bad and you should lose. Similarly, if aliens haven't got Fades by that point they're doing something wrong and will probably lose too.
Not even gonna comment on expensive PCs and configuration.
Comments
Yes, because these two marines can be anywhere on the map, and there is of course only one fade in the entire game and no other aliens. Lol
Well if the marines have dual exos, it's too late anyway, but ""thankfully"" that doesn't happen too often.
So you would allow two "good shots" to proceed around the map unmolested all the way to your hive? Might be why you are losing. Also when i say 2 marines to 1 fade, i am simply stating that in a moment of combat two marines can take down any fade with proper aim (with the proper equipment and upgrades or with skill when those are lacking). Generally marines out number fades in pubs. I have never seen 10 fades on a 20 player server... ever... even end game. 4 max and that jives with my 2:1 numbers. Oh, i forgot to add "lol". Seems to make my point all the more blatant somehow.
Marines getting dual exos isnt the end. It just means they have 2 bases which is a usual game. 2 fully tech'd out teams isnt unheard of in 5 tech point maps.
TL:DR @anonymousUS Calm down. My L2P wasnt directed at everyone. Sometimes less skillful players such as myself need A1 and Shotguns to solo a fade. Without it even i have to rely on teamwork
"IMO" fades are fine.... "lol"
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. If we add welders you have denied a 40 res unit with 2 marines who have enough time to weld up and get medpacks. It is a stalemate to equal skilled players. Nothing OP about it. Now if the fade was able to take out both marines with med spam and decent aim, we would have an issue. This is not the case. The fade can easily escape sure, but it means s/he loses territory, position, and time. A 40+ res unit is delayed by 2 free ones. Now add in = res units. A JP shotgun is quite the match for a vanilla fade. Assuming equal skill it would be a fun match to see. It would come down to positioning and experience.
I think the fade is in a good spot (early-mid game) with proper comming on both sides.
I'm completely serious. The move is ridiculous. It's different but it's still really good.
Since b250 the only lifeforms I consider to evolve in is skulk, Gorge or Onos.
The fade is not weak.
The fade, like every other class, is only as strong as the person controlling it.
Can we close this ridiculous thread now?
So let's randomly add or remove 50 HP from the lifeform
This wonderfully insightful analysis still applies
How about we don't? Sewlek already played around with the armor and hp values of the fade for months before 250 went live.
Edit: removed the rest of my post since it isn't worth arguing.
You're right. But.... with regards to fadeplosion, the only way (without changing resource mechanics) would be to nerf fade and increase the support viability of the lerk. It shouldn't be that optimal to go 4-5 fades and nor should we just increase the support role of the lerk without affecting the fade because then we'd have equal fades but fewer with more survivability.
But likewise, if it's easier to kill fades then the pivot of the game swings in marines favour and they'll wipe through skulks easily to dominate the map before either the next wave of fades or marines finish the game.
I've been indisposed the last 5 days so I haven't been able to dispute every point in this thread but I don't see much in the way of arguing my point that skulks need to scale better for late game. You argued that they scale equally with LMG marines but they don't. I'll repost my maths.
Skulk needs to be VERY difficult to use effectively outside of res-biting situations mid to late game. They SHOULD be nearly useless.
I can attest to that. There were points where the Fade had as little as 230 hp / 20 armor (can't remember exact numbers, but it was very low), and it was awful. So bad, in fact, that everyone who knew about it either went Lerk or saved for Onos, both of which were weaker than 249 (not necessarily in HP) but at least could take a marine down on their own.
Sewlek also tried buffing the shotgun damage. At one point it dealt heavy damage (the same as minigun exos). It was bad too, because it would either be too weak vs. skulks or too powerful vs. everything.
I'm pretty sure those Fades that go like 50-2 will also go like 40-7 as marine. "Nerf good players" will never happen.
Then the game just turns into "Can you kill the fades?"
Yes --> You push and win unless you majestically fuck up
No --> GG marines.
That's always been the name of the game lol
When tres fades were 50, it wasn't. It was more than just kill fades because you had to make sure their res was down so they couldnt drop eggs like mad.
I'm not saying that 50 tres fade eggs were good, i'm just saying that the game is definitely more centered around killing the wave of fades now.
Is it a good thing that the game is like this? I don't think so and I'd like to see it changed but if everyone else thinks it's good then I'm happy to play on.
I was com and one fade was killing the marines non stop.
Dropping medpacks like and idiot on fully upgraded marines with shotguns and nanoshields - nothing help.
I said "You have to trap the fade" - nothing changed.
So i jumped out of the chair, walk through the half map and wait for fade the @ hive.
He came in, bam, dead.
Oh , it was the wrong fade. Hmm, ok.
So i jumped into the chair again.
Meanwhile the good fade didnt stop to rape the marines.
So i jumped out again.
Someone said "we have no com, what are you doing".
My answer "Im killing this fade now"
The fade came and died in around 3 seconds on 2 fully hit shotgun blasts. No medpack, no nanoshield was needed.
I went back to my chair and jumped in
This story isnt to tell you that im the uber-pro (wich im not for sure).
All you need is:
- a bit gamesense (escape ways of the fade)
- a bit teamplay (1 lmg player plays decoy while a shotgun player is waiting around the corner)
- a bit help of the com (medpacks, nanoshield, scans)
- a bit coordination over mic (Where are the fades, which way are they escaping)
- and a bit aim
In combinations a solo "killingmachine" transform into an "useless" class.
Sad thing is:
Most player missing everything from above.
Another story are 4 fades with an umbra lerk running around the map.
You can't enter a balance discussion with ridiculous statements like "it's not OP because it depends on player skill!1!!!11" because that applies no matter what the stats actually are
Your idea about good fades vs good marines shows how little you understand the broader situation in a random pub.
Marines need aim + teamwork + comm support + game experience + expensive PCs + visual configs + techs
Fades need game experience and usually have the tech advantage relative to marines.
guess which one you find more often? hint: it's on the scoreboard in pubs
What is making fade-killing such a focal point is not the fade itself, there's other factors such as gorge cost and 1-hive bile that make it so that even if marines deny a 2nd hive the aliens are still in position to win. The focus is no longer on the 2nd hive because it does not unlock the abilities, straight across the board, which allow the aliens to turn their defensive role to an offensive role. That being bile and umbra.
So, since the aliens are not forced to defend their second hive point, they can make decisions where they move to other parts of the map and attack phase gates etc that they WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO ATTACK, simply because they were able to sacrifice their second hive. This removes marine pressure teams and induces phase gate "turtles." (The NECESSITY of them, really, when playing better alien players)
Now, aliens are focusing on upgrades and dropping hives later, where the hives should be going down no sooner/later on average than fades are coming out, and the fades should be FORCED into a defensive role (This being meta-talk. Of course aliens can just have played well enough to get into an offensive position within 4 minutes) This works well with the current features because gorge tunnels in the 2nd hive, the hive, a dc, and gorge building are what should be keeping the fades healed and a relatively low-upgrade marines out of the hive. (Along with the fades. This is why sieges were so intense.) This is also a point where shotguns come out and the marines can choose between siege and attack.
So what can be done to push bile and umbra back to 2 hives without making early shotguns too overpowered? (Suggestions: 1. Projectile spores and a spike nerf, 2. Skulk speed increase, just some initial thoughts. Spores seriously hinder marine economy making low armor phase "turtles" as mentioned before less viable, skulk speed increase because we are sacrificing some alien map presence decision making ability by dictating their tempo more)
edit: I forgot to mention that these are major reasons for the length of current round times
Beyond that, increasing skulk speed would be a very bad idea given the binary nature of early game combat, marines are really already at a disadvantage through most of the game, 0-6 minutes and then again at ~9-20+.
Yes you're right. It's not an end all be all situation where not having umbra and bile bomb make it impossible to do anything but defend the 2nd hive. I just meant those as two points, as I mentioned two fixes later, two felt reasonable. So when the fades come out in a pack of four they DO get to make that decision still.
So my main idea in that post is about narrowing what an alien team can expect to do early game, theoretically broadening marine options. Frankly with the fade explosion i don't know what to tell you. Even if they don't explode into 4 fades, if you're ending up with 4 fades between 8-12 minutes on a team it's hard to say what to do to stop them and force them to defend. Because.. Why would 4 fades defend, they're 4 fades.
I don't think a raise in skulk bunnyhop speed cap would change the game from how it currently plays. It only has a significant change in play on the first engagement because it changes the locations where marines skulks meet on very map and clearly can't be balanced around that fact. I guess people just don't aim like they used to (myself included). But with the increase in skulk mobility in NS2 (actual wall control) i suppose you're right about their early disadvantage. I'd like to see that change somehow. No shotgun research needed? (I mean, a shotgun rush is a shotgun rush. I don't think teams would abuse this and I don't think it would kill pubs. But it doesn't sound like a good idea to me either haha)
And I suppose you're not against the spores before umbra?
actually a pretty entertaining thread man
I still don't think that the objective of the game should switch from killing the hives to killing fades and so I believe that the game should be changed so the best team configuration isn't 4-5 fades. I do think more time needs to be spent playing the game to understand the effects this latest build has had because personally, I'm seeing more marine wins now.
If fades are harrassing front lines, off your rt's (min 3) off your phase. Keep upgrading and happy days.
If getting totally owned by 1 or 2 fades you need yolo strats. Eg skip wep 3 and armr 3 skip jp's and go exo. Try for duals not necessary. find a foward base eg (pipe chair, the dome pg Armoury obs) aliens will attack your main or forward base with enough pressure. If you can get arcs up the focus for them will be that forward base if your scared and res is low keep an exo in your main at all times.
As a comm im usually scared to see 3-4 gorge pushes because becon can ruin your map control. The hard counter for fades is the exo. They dont have to die but If you cant control them and keep map control usually its gg
Side note nano is a slight counter to fades if you go jp shotty
If you have 2-2 before fade bomb, you've been doing a fantastic job against those skulks and the alien harvesters
If the fades have the chance, they'll go for your PG to deny you map control. They'll happily sacrifice 1 harvester to get that phase gate down because once that's down, they can wipe the pressure and re-drop harvesters.
If you defend the pg with 2 marines and the fades decide not to engage there, they'll probably wipe out the pressure and get the res biting skulk through and tear down your RTs until the marines reposition themselves leaving the phasegate the weak link.
I agree that exos are a soft counter to fades but getting to exos is mighty expensive in tres terms and when fades come out at 7 minute mark (3 harvesters) you're going to lose a fair bit of ground and resource towers.
However, just because you have a pg in dome doesn't mean that the aliens HAVE to clear it unless cargo is their only hive. The fades will go together taking down marine res until there is pressure inside of cargo to wipe. If they win that engagement they can go straight to the dome pg and grind.
ARCs are another resource drain and with the number of encounters happening with the quick mobility of fades, you'll need res to support marines with meds and nano. When you start taking down those fades, the res intensive support drops and you can finally start teching at a reasonable rate.
I usually keep a shotgun on me when I'm in the comm chair unless I can reasonably reach jetpacks. The 3-4 gorge push means that my marines on the field can successfully push something and I always have at least 1 who is able to phase back to base to help me kill the gorges.
Nano is a good counter if you time it right before the fade swipes and the fades don't immediately leave the engagement. What I've noticed with some teams is that the fade going for the nano shielded marine will leave but the others will stay making it easier for my marines to pick one off.
Listen. I have played close to 900 hours of NS2. Stating that "I understand very little about the broader situation in a random pub" just doesn't work. I played countless pub games in addition to competitive, with all sorts of people, from absolute beginners to double team stacks to trolls. I've killed all sorts of Fades. I've died as a Fade dozens of times, sometimes for being stupid, sometimes for being outplayed, sometimes for being out-teched. The fact is, killing a Fade requires more than just being rambo. It requires you to be smart, just as being a Fade requires you to be very careful.
Fades in the right hands are just as OP as very good marines with shotguns and jetpacks (or exos).
You make it seem like the moment good Fades are out, aliens auto-win. That is not true at all.
For killing a Fade, you absolutely need aim, game experience and tech. Everything else is optional but greatly helpful.
People have already talked about the res costs. Fades are 40 + 5 for each upgrade. Shotguns are 20. Jetpacks are 15. Rail/minigun exos with claw are 40 res. Think about it for a moment.
If you don't have at the very least A1, W1 and shotgun by the point Fades come out, your commander/team is bad and you should lose. Similarly, if aliens haven't got Fades by that point they're doing something wrong and will probably lose too.
Not even gonna comment on expensive PCs and configuration.