Blink in, swipe once, blink out. If you are still good to go, do it again. Never stay close enough to a marine long enough that he can get a second shotgun round off, whether he hits with his first or not.
^^This
That is pretty much all you need to do to be a wrecking machine as a fade. Even if you don't get kills, just that distraction is huge.
dePARA's scenario is for bad fades.
Good fades in a pub server are much too difficult to take down because the marines in a pub server are not going to have the coordination to cut a fades escape routes off to take him down. You basically have to have the coordination of 50-75% of the marine team to take down ONE good fade in a pub server. There's just something absurdly wrong with that.
And just how do you propose a marine team cut off the escape of an alien flying overhead just short of breaking the sound barrier? If the fade doesn't stop to engage the ambushers and he leaves his target group with a good amount of health (more than half, I prefer 2/3rds) there is simply no way they can kill him even if they are in the right position and have the accuracy to hit him.
That's assuming the fade doesn't retreat through friendly territory where it would be nigh impossible to set up an ambush. The vast majority of all engagements are going to take place at the front lines where all the fade has to do is go back the direction he came and hell be safe. The rare occasion that a fade does go behind enemy lines and risk being cut off like that he's likely to be especially skittish and run with near full hp.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2013
Its the role for an fade to distract marines and if the situation is safe he can go and killing them.
The current fade is fine. And after fixing the speedbug with 251 the fade should be not changed.
It took ages to get the fade in his current form.
I rember the killing machines fades from the beta. These where blinking onos and really unkillable.
And im tired of discussion the same things again and again.
This is op, that is op, blablabla
Solve the lifeform-explosion and and thats all.
Marines can handle 2 fades, maybe 3. But 4-5 and its gg most of the time.
And btw: my scenario isnt a "bad fade" scenario. I think my fadeplay is ok.
Its a "to greedy"-scenario.
I think fade needs a bit of an HP nerf, that's all really. He simply has too much room to make mistakes taking damage and still get away safe and easy.
@sotanaht Of course the Fade should be able to kill a solo marine, assuming equal skill in both parties. The Fade has a cost attached to it; a 40 res Fade should be able to kill a 0 res marine (or a 20 res shotgun marine). Marines can't solo an Onos either, do you think the Onos should be made weaker?
However, if marines stick together and use teamwork, they will be perfectly capable of killing a Fade. At the very least they will be able to deal enough damage to force it out of the room, which should count as a win for the marine team.
Except that's actually a win for a fade. He's occupied 3-5 marines in one room and thus prevented them from doing anything useful, and in 15 seconds he'll be right back and doing it again.
I'm not saying a solo marine should be able to take down a decent fade, I'm saying the marine team with a coordinated effort should be able to KILL a fade period. Right now they have enough health that any time they see a threat they can just run with enough HP that they cannot be killed while escaping.
PUGS -
Skill level is lower
More marines in general (more kill opportunities, no class moves around as fast as fade)
More marines running around by themselves.
False sense of security marines have with large number (ie: they don't have to pay attention, cause someone else will)
I've gone 50 and 1 quite a few times on pub servers (10v10), but never in a pug (6v6).
Fades require teamwork to take down as they should or else they wouldn't be worth the res over a lerk. Same for aliens having to deal with JP + Shotgun, rarely ever do you see one get solo'd by a skulk, nor should you.
PUGS -
Skill level is lower
More marines in general (more kill opportunities, no class moves around as fast as fade)
More marines running around by themselves.
False sense of security marines have with large number (ie: they don't have to pay attention, cause someone else will)
I've gone 50 and 1 quite a few times on pub servers (10v10), but never in a pug (6v6).
Fades require teamwork to take down as they should or else they wouldn't be worth the res over a lerk. Same for aliens having to deal with JP + Shotgun, rarely ever do you see one get solo'd by a skulk, nor should you.
and yes I realize the tech path to unlocking JP and shotguns, however, early game marines should be more defensive and JP + shotgun is more late game offensive (not talkin about countering an onos, just what is NEEDED to win). Fades are a necessity to aliens winning no matter what.
There is an easy way to solo a JP/Shotgun with a skulk: Xenocide. Initiate xenocide, bite, leap, bite and blow up. If you can't bite him at all because the skill gap is just too wide, use two xenos.
If you don't have xenocide you are at a disadvantage. If you don't have leap you may as well just run away. In either case you can consider yourself out-teched.
Anyway I'm not at all interested in how many kills a fade gets. A fade can get 0 kills the entire round and still be very effective at misdirecting the marine forces. The problem is that the marine team has absolutely ZERO chance of killing a fade until that fade screws up. Nothing they can do, not even the entire team coordinating against him, will make any difference until he overcommits.
as a comm, I never worry about my marines vs solo fades, if my marines are any good anyway. even if just one or two of them. say they push in on an extractor. they're armor 2 or even armor one. the fade can come in and swipe at them, but if they're even worth half a damn, they'll force him out, with maybe a couple med packs. you say15 seconds to get back to hive and heal? that's enough to decyst and put some damage into a harvester. rinse and repeat. that harvester is worth 8 med packs outright. the issue is that there is very little a solo fade can do against a marine ball that welds plus med support. 5 swipes is a lot, and each med pack is another swipe. get some enzyme on that fade and we'll talk.
Quit using the "use teamwork to bring down fades" excuse for horrible design. While you're using "teamwork" to trap 1 lifeform, the other team is using that same teamwork to decimate the rest of your team and take over the map. The game really needs to throw pub server players a bone and stop imagining that everyone is going to be crack shots and long time platoon mates. Balance for the perfect scenario and you'll end up with a game that is only played in that perfect scenario, and guess how often that happens?
Quit using the "use teamwork to bring down fades" excuse for horrible design. While you're using "teamwork" to trap 1 lifeform, the other team is using that same teamwork to decimate the rest of your team and take over the map. The game really needs to throw pub server players a bone and stop imagining that everyone is going to be crack shots and long time platoon mates. Balance for the perfect scenario and you'll end up with a game that is only played in that perfect scenario, and guess how often that happens?
Quit using the "use teamwork to bring down fades" excuse for horrible design. While you're using "teamwork" to trap 1 lifeform, the other team is using that same teamwork to decimate the rest of your team and take over the map. The game really needs to throw pub server players a bone and stop imagining that everyone is going to be crack shots and long time platoon mates. Balance for the perfect scenario and you'll end up with a game that is only played in that perfect scenario, and guess how often that happens?
I don't even know where to begin.
Start by answering the question of whether you wish to see new players take to the game and thrive.
Twice, I saw a group of 3 greens join the server I was playing on, get owned by an average fade repeatedly, realize that they could do nothing against it even if they stuck together with us, and left before the round ended. Yes, it's possible to take down an average (not good) fade if he screws up. Is it FUN to play a game that's balanced for such a scenario?
Edit: Speaking of the "fun" part, none of my friends who regularly played NS1 and then NS2 have logged any time into the game in the last week. You could say it's a combination of factors, whether it's the 250 changes (we're all split evenly on this) or just that the game has become repetitive, but BS like dealing with fades and exos in pub play did eventually push them to play other games. A well designed game is easy to pick up and hard to master. The fade as it is is the other way around. I can safely say that I have a lot less reason to log in these days. Sure, we can teach the newbies on the server... IF they're lucky to get a few good games under their belt to actually learn something besides "oh look, blinkydeath again. kthxbai" within their first 15 minutes of a game.
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
@aYos
Team work is why I love this game. Even for pubs, the team that work together better generally wins the game. If one lifeform is distracting your marine team, while the rest of the map is being taken over, then maybe your Comm, should redirect the resources to defend the map and not be obsessed with the one lifeform. I would never want this game to degenerate into a like 1v1 deathmatch. And if you think that would make it better for NS, then NS is not really the game for you. And I would hope it will never be like that. When you say balance for the perfect scenario and the perfect things happen, I think the Devs are actually trying to do that. In a perfect encounter 1 fade vs 3-4 marines (some with SG), you would expect the fade to die if the marines play it perfectly. As you say, things are never perfect (what is actually good, because marines might slip up, fade might slip up - and that adds to the unpredictability to the game). If every encounter has a predetermined outcome, it wouldn't be a game played by players, it would be a game played out by machines.
Remember people that are yelling Fade OP, please remember this game is ABOUT team work, it has always been about team work. So that OP Fade might be able to kill 1 marine from the group every minutes (kill then heal, and come back), but if your group is being reinforced all the time and pushing out on the map, you are winning. A high K/D ration might seem OP at first, but that is only half the story.
The difference here is that it's far far harder for the fade to slip up than the marines to.
By harder, do you mean it takes a few more marine deaths before the fade might slip up, or if the Fade is played with caution, its hard to kill (almost impossible as it can get out so fast?). I understand what you and OP say about how hard the fade is to kill, but it really just takes practice. So, I don't expect rookies to have the practice to do this first go. The trick is to hold your shot until the fade stops to swipe - doesn't make it easier to kill, as I regularly do 100+ damage to a fade per SG shot, the others in the group are firing widely. But I feel my point about teamwork still stands. Slip up or not, in a perfect scenario the Fade would expect to die at the hands of a group of 4 marines if it over committed (slip up). The good Fades are hard to kill, but that is the nature of game. Imagine if a good Fade was easy to kill, then no one would even try going Fade, as a newbie Fade has no chance at all.
All the usual argument and counter argument about this and other topics has been heard a hundred times (eg. Marine OP, Pros farming pubs for kills etc...), and I feel we are just going around in circles arguing about what is right and wrong with a build, when the problem is really players need to be educated about what this game is about:
Teamwork. I have posted my share of xxx is OP (see my Exo buff and Onos nerf posts). But in the end, as has been said many many time by others, this game is about team work, and the larger the server the more this is apparent as player skill gets more diluted by the sheer numbers. So don't obsess over K/D, territory control and resources are what wins you the game. If you say; but the OP Fade gives them control of the map, then that is actually the what is suppose to happen.
THE FADE IS THE ONLY UNIT IN THE GAME I SEE DOING THIS
Onos cant, dual cannon exo's cant, only fades can get this KDR because they cannot die
Its dumb for a unit to have so much HP, agility, and damage.
Think of any RPG with the rank, healers, dps, etc - the fade is the epitome of everything. It has no weakness. Really, zero weakness.
The ono is large and slower, skulks have less HP, etc. Everything else in the game is somewhat balanced. Even exos, which are amazing, dont come in until late game and can still get gang raped by skulks. A fade? NOPE - fly everything isntantly with 400 (exo) level HP. THe only thing it cant do is kill you at range... but it can close that range in half a second, so that doesnt count!
Quit using the "use teamwork to bring down fades" excuse for horrible design. While you're using "teamwork" to trap 1 lifeform, the other team is using that same teamwork to decimate the rest of your team and take over the map. The game really needs to throw pub server players a bone and stop imagining that everyone is going to be crack shots and long time platoon mates. Balance for the perfect scenario and you'll end up with a game that is only played in that perfect scenario, and guess how often that happens?
This is true.
People will give any kind of excuses and advice, but ignore the actual reality of pub games.
L2P is not and has never been a valid argument for game design issues people have after they get out of the rookie stage.
Its basically a flying stealth tank that can kill you in a couple swipes. Its the only unit pulling 50-1 ratios, and its the only unit that makes players not want to play this otherwise amazing game.
A pro marine cant do half the damage a mediocre fade can.
@MrRayChales I beg to differ, I've seen marines that could hold entire rooms by themselves provided they had medpack support. That is insane since marines are all about territory denial. Talk about distractions, a good marine in your base early on just killing everyone and getting med packs and ammo. Not only is he denying reinforcements to other areas but he is basically shutting down the other team, period.
Why do we say players should get mic's? Teamwork my friends, teamwork and communication. Only a really dumb fade or a confident one would charge into a room where Marines know he is coming. Fades are supposed to be hit and run with survival kept in mind. I played a game recently where I went fade and had a pretty decent KDR but my team still lost, why, teamwork. The marines did the smart thing and stuck together, welding each other and attacking together. They used multiple groups, not just 1 big group consisting of the whole team. I never died as the fade and went 40/5. I still couldn't stop them from killing our last 2hives, and they did just as well a job and dealing with other threats around the map as well.
Also, fades have been made easier to predict and blink is actually slower than blink/hop and is also more detrimental. If you cannot kill this fade, how the heck would you fare pre 250 with fades that could shadowstep circles around you while keeping their speed.
the game is not designed to be balanced for players who do not meet the following criteria:
1) have a super fast computer
2) have incredible aim
3) have good teamwork / coordination
if your team lacks any of those things, then a game is designed to be heavily alien-favored
they could easily adjust the game to be balanced for worse players/teams, but they aren't
your issue is that the game is not designed for the settings you play on... which is a valid concern but slightly different than "fade is stupid"
Except that's actually a win for a fade. He's occupied 3-5 marines in one room and thus prevented them from doing anything useful, and in 15 seconds he'll be right back and doing it again.
I'm not saying a solo marine should be able to take down a decent fade, I'm saying the marine team with a coordinated effort should be able to KILL a fade period. Right now they have enough health that any time they see a threat they can just run with enough HP that they cannot be killed while escaping.
3-5 marines should be able to kill a fade easily. If fades are managing to escape fights with 5 marines, then those marines have awful aim, awful game sense, or both. It's one thing to make a game approachable for new players, but let's not balance this game for the lowest common denominator here.
Let's say the fade is doing this with 2 marines. He's keeping them occupied by blinking in, swiping, and blinking out. What is he accomplishing here that is such a victory for him? He's not taking down res. He's not taking down marine bases. At best he's getting a couple kills that have no affect on the big picture of the game whatsoever. This is not a problem. If anything it's a complete waste of resources for the alien team to use this 40 res lifeform for nothing more than annoying a couple of marines.
If the fade could singlehandedly take down a marine base, that would be one thing. But it can't. It needs other fades, gorges with bile, lerks with umbra, drifters with enzyme. By itself a fade might be able to get a couple cheap kills but it's not good enough to do anything that will drastically affect the game from an RTS standpoint. Fades already are dependent on their teammates, just like marines should be.
Also keep in mind how important fades are to mid and late game alien teams. They are the main units used for fighting. They need to be capable of competing with marines that have shotguns, upgrades, and jetpacks. They have only one chance. If they die even one time, they can't come back. They'll be forced to play as a skulk or gorge. Marines can die many times and continue to respawn. They'll lose their weapons and equipment, but those can be recycled (fades cannot be recycled.) Also, a marine with Armor 2/3 and Weapons 2/3 is better than a skulk. Frankly if the fade became any weaker aliens would have no chance against fully teched marines, they're already at a disadvantage in the late game as it is.
not really, a fade can basically blink/teleport out of danger
unless you have three gauss exo suits hit a fade fully charged, or several grenades hit head on simultaneously, a fade wont die
now add in the fact that... the fade has an entire team as back up while 50%+ of the marines are trying to scratch a single fade, and you can see why 3-4 fades easily decimate any marine force
you need 5 double barrel exo suits to rush their hives or you have no chance versus fades... thats pretty stupid if you ask me
Its basically a flying stealth tank that can kill you in a couple swipes. Its the only unit pulling 50-1 ratios, and its the only unit that makes players not want to play this otherwise amazing game.
A pro marine cant do half the damage a mediocre fade can.
What very little credibility you may have had was lost with this post. Please stop making yourself look silly.
I think you're looking at Fades the wrong way. Yes, a 30-40 kill Fade isn't too uncommon, but that's their job: they're hit-and-run machines. That's what people buy them for. And since they are hit-and-run machines, a person playing cautiously with one could easily last most of a match using one. It's working as intended.
The point of the Fade is to zoom around the map, find lone marines or small groups of marines, attack them, and get away. Lowering their health a bit isn't going to stop that. You'll still be destroyed 1-on-1 by a fade, and they'll still be an annoyance for 2-3 marines to deal with, because that's what they were designed to do.
They aren't going to kill a base (quickly, anyway), they're not going to take down Exo's without serious backup, and they're definitely not going to go anywhere close to a group of 4+ marines unless they have a death wish. Yes, they don't die unless they fuck up, but fucking up is way easier than you think it is.
The thing you're seeing after the b250 patch is that Fades are now designed to do their job with less hassle than before. With the inclusion of Aura, which lets you spot marines through walls, and blink available right off the bat, Fades now have the presence on the battlefield that they were always meant to have. And yeah, if they play it fairly safe, and if the marine team sucks at aiming, they can manage to get great k/dr. But remember that k/dr is just one aspect of winning a game.
THE FADE IS THE ONLY UNIT IN THE GAME I SEE DOING THIS
Onos cant, dual cannon exo's cant, only fades can get this KDR because they cannot die
Its dumb for a unit to have so much HP, agility, and damage.
Think of any RPG with the rank, healers, dps, etc - the fade is the epitome of everything. It has no weakness. Really, zero weakness.
The ono is large and slower, skulks have less HP, etc. Everything else in the game is somewhat balanced. Even exos, which are amazing, dont come in until late game and can still get gang raped by skulks. A fade? NOPE - fly everything isntantly with 400 (exo) level HP. THe only thing it cant do is kill you at range... but it can close that range in half a second, so that doesnt count!
Fade is simply too good for a unit.
ive seen the same scores as a skulk onos exo marine with rifle shotty or flamer and also lerks before build 250,
and yea the fade is fast and can close the distance with ease but thats what shotguns are for and flamethrowers
few shots to the face and the fade is gone or just burn their energy so they cant blink or shadowstep
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Lets say UWE nerf the Fade, so pub marines have more fun.
Ok
What do you think happen then?
These nerfed 4 fun fades going to die like flies and the same people saying the fade is op starting posts like:
"Why should i invest 40 res into an lifeform that cant do nothing usefull in mid-endgame, shotgun need a nerf so pub fades can have more fun"
The current fade is the result of 3 month intense balancing with the community (competitive AND pub players).
Its funny that threads like this always pop up after sales weekends.
Im surprised that there are no new "where can i report cheaters" going up.
As i mentioned before and im doin this again:
The Fade itself is ok, its little bit to fast in my opinion, but its ok.
Its the lifeform explosion wich is the real problem.
Fades dominating pubs comes down to four things:
- No proper comm support (No meds, nanos, no A/W upgrades, no scans, no voice commanding, ...)
- No proper marine coordination (staying grouped, blocking off the fade's exit points, ...)
- Poor aim or general skill discrepancy
- Too many fades appearing at the same time
Fades require coordination to take down, the kind of coordination that is hard to come by in pub games. This is actually very similar to a problem aliens have with lategame marine turtles. Those also require a lot of coordination to break (several onos supported by gorges/lerks attacking at the same time) and as such they are frustrating to deal with in pubs.
I'd say both probably need to be addressed, at least in pubs as I can imagine they ruin a lot of player's enjoyment. I.e fix lifeform explosions and give aliens proper lategame tech.
Reading through some of the comments so far, It seems like the only real problem when a fade appears is that the team doesn't coordinate well enough to cooperate. Fades are dangerous for the mere fact that they cost enough resources that they make or break the game. If the team is able to communicate and have maybe constant scans in the area they walk into while with other teammates, theoretically 1-2 fades should not pose a major threat. As for 4-5 fades....I guess since fades have less damage against structures, it'd be a base rush?
the problem is that there is this gap between before fade and after fades, during the time before the first fades appear, the marines are supposed to gain enough territory and ressources to be well prepared for the fades (aka 2-2 upg + shotguns + 2-3 well positioned PGs), if they fail to do so theyre pretty much doomed and will feel as if the game is unfair because things seemed to be at a stalemate while fighting mostly skulks and now against the fades things spiral down quickly.
Fade... fade... isn't that the peculiar lifeform with controls like:
press forward = useless and noisy slow crawl
press backward = useless and noisy slow crawl
press strafe left = useless and noisy slow crawl
press strafe right = useless and noisy slow crawl
press forward + jump + tap blink = actually semi-useful way to move
press jump + strafe + crouch + shadow step + wiggle left/right/left/right + 360 degrees turn + jump = now you are getting the basics right
Hmmmm.... I am sure the new players appreciate the design clarity.
I don't deny that that's another issue with the fade's design. NS2 feels like a game that's made hard to pick up for no discernible reason other than just because. I'm awaiting the patch where marines have to enter the konami code within 0.3s to launch grenades at their target. Miss a button and the grenade goes wide. Skill, amirite?
Comments
And just how do you propose a marine team cut off the escape of an alien flying overhead just short of breaking the sound barrier? If the fade doesn't stop to engage the ambushers and he leaves his target group with a good amount of health (more than half, I prefer 2/3rds) there is simply no way they can kill him even if they are in the right position and have the accuracy to hit him.
That's assuming the fade doesn't retreat through friendly territory where it would be nigh impossible to set up an ambush. The vast majority of all engagements are going to take place at the front lines where all the fade has to do is go back the direction he came and hell be safe. The rare occasion that a fade does go behind enemy lines and risk being cut off like that he's likely to be especially skittish and run with near full hp.
The current fade is fine. And after fixing the speedbug with 251 the fade should be not changed.
It took ages to get the fade in his current form.
I rember the killing machines fades from the beta. These where blinking onos and really unkillable.
And im tired of discussion the same things again and again.
This is op, that is op, blablabla
Solve the lifeform-explosion and and thats all.
Marines can handle 2 fades, maybe 3. But 4-5 and its gg most of the time.
And btw: my scenario isnt a "bad fade" scenario. I think my fadeplay is ok.
Its a "to greedy"-scenario.
However, if marines stick together and use teamwork, they will be perfectly capable of killing a Fade. At the very least they will be able to deal enough damage to force it out of the room, which should count as a win for the marine team.
I'm not saying a solo marine should be able to take down a decent fade, I'm saying the marine team with a coordinated effort should be able to KILL a fade period. Right now they have enough health that any time they see a threat they can just run with enough HP that they cannot be killed while escaping.
PUGS -
Skill level is lower
More marines in general (more kill opportunities, no class moves around as fast as fade)
More marines running around by themselves.
False sense of security marines have with large number (ie: they don't have to pay attention, cause someone else will)
I've gone 50 and 1 quite a few times on pub servers (10v10), but never in a pug (6v6).
Fades require teamwork to take down as they should or else they wouldn't be worth the res over a lerk. Same for aliens having to deal with JP + Shotgun, rarely ever do you see one get solo'd by a skulk, nor should you.
There is an easy way to solo a JP/Shotgun with a skulk: Xenocide. Initiate xenocide, bite, leap, bite and blow up. If you can't bite him at all because the skill gap is just too wide, use two xenos.
If you don't have xenocide you are at a disadvantage. If you don't have leap you may as well just run away. In either case you can consider yourself out-teched.
Anyway I'm not at all interested in how many kills a fade gets. A fade can get 0 kills the entire round and still be very effective at misdirecting the marine forces. The problem is that the marine team has absolutely ZERO chance of killing a fade until that fade screws up. Nothing they can do, not even the entire team coordinating against him, will make any difference until he overcommits.
Start by answering the question of whether you wish to see new players take to the game and thrive.
Twice, I saw a group of 3 greens join the server I was playing on, get owned by an average fade repeatedly, realize that they could do nothing against it even if they stuck together with us, and left before the round ended. Yes, it's possible to take down an average (not good) fade if he screws up. Is it FUN to play a game that's balanced for such a scenario?
Edit: Speaking of the "fun" part, none of my friends who regularly played NS1 and then NS2 have logged any time into the game in the last week. You could say it's a combination of factors, whether it's the 250 changes (we're all split evenly on this) or just that the game has become repetitive, but BS like dealing with fades and exos in pub play did eventually push them to play other games. A well designed game is easy to pick up and hard to master. The fade as it is is the other way around. I can safely say that I have a lot less reason to log in these days. Sure, we can teach the newbies on the server... IF they're lucky to get a few good games under their belt to actually learn something besides "oh look, blinkydeath again. kthxbai" within their first 15 minutes of a game.
Team work is why I love this game. Even for pubs, the team that work together better generally wins the game. If one lifeform is distracting your marine team, while the rest of the map is being taken over, then maybe your Comm, should redirect the resources to defend the map and not be obsessed with the one lifeform. I would never want this game to degenerate into a like 1v1 deathmatch. And if you think that would make it better for NS, then NS is not really the game for you. And I would hope it will never be like that. When you say balance for the perfect scenario and the perfect things happen, I think the Devs are actually trying to do that. In a perfect encounter 1 fade vs 3-4 marines (some with SG), you would expect the fade to die if the marines play it perfectly. As you say, things are never perfect (what is actually good, because marines might slip up, fade might slip up - and that adds to the unpredictability to the game). If every encounter has a predetermined outcome, it wouldn't be a game played by players, it would be a game played out by machines.
Remember people that are yelling Fade OP, please remember this game is ABOUT team work, it has always been about team work. So that OP Fade might be able to kill 1 marine from the group every minutes (kill then heal, and come back), but if your group is being reinforced all the time and pushing out on the map, you are winning. A high K/D ration might seem OP at first, but that is only half the story.
The difference here is that it's far far harder for the fade to slip up than the marines to.
By harder, do you mean it takes a few more marine deaths before the fade might slip up, or if the Fade is played with caution, its hard to kill (almost impossible as it can get out so fast?). I understand what you and OP say about how hard the fade is to kill, but it really just takes practice. So, I don't expect rookies to have the practice to do this first go. The trick is to hold your shot until the fade stops to swipe - doesn't make it easier to kill, as I regularly do 100+ damage to a fade per SG shot, the others in the group are firing widely. But I feel my point about teamwork still stands. Slip up or not, in a perfect scenario the Fade would expect to die at the hands of a group of 4 marines if it over committed (slip up). The good Fades are hard to kill, but that is the nature of game. Imagine if a good Fade was easy to kill, then no one would even try going Fade, as a newbie Fade has no chance at all.
All the usual argument and counter argument about this and other topics has been heard a hundred times (eg. Marine OP, Pros farming pubs for kills etc...), and I feel we are just going around in circles arguing about what is right and wrong with a build, when the problem is really players need to be educated about what this game is about:
Teamwork. I have posted my share of xxx is OP (see my Exo buff and Onos nerf posts). But in the end, as has been said many many time by others, this game is about team work, and the larger the server the more this is apparent as player skill gets more diluted by the sheer numbers. So don't obsess over K/D, territory control and resources are what wins you the game. If you say; but the OP Fade gives them control of the map, then that is actually the what is suppose to happen.
Onos cant, dual cannon exo's cant, only fades can get this KDR because they cannot die
Its dumb for a unit to have so much HP, agility, and damage.
Think of any RPG with the rank, healers, dps, etc - the fade is the epitome of everything. It has no weakness. Really, zero weakness.
The ono is large and slower, skulks have less HP, etc. Everything else in the game is somewhat balanced. Even exos, which are amazing, dont come in until late game and can still get gang raped by skulks. A fade? NOPE - fly everything isntantly with 400 (exo) level HP. THe only thing it cant do is kill you at range... but it can close that range in half a second, so that doesnt count!
Fade is simply too good for a unit.
This is true.
People will give any kind of excuses and advice, but ignore the actual reality of pub games.
L2P is not and has never been a valid argument for game design issues people have after they get out of the rookie stage.
Its basically a flying stealth tank that can kill you in a couple swipes. Its the only unit pulling 50-1 ratios, and its the only unit that makes players not want to play this otherwise amazing game.
A pro marine cant do half the damage a mediocre fade can.
Why do we say players should get mic's? Teamwork my friends, teamwork and communication. Only a really dumb fade or a confident one would charge into a room where Marines know he is coming. Fades are supposed to be hit and run with survival kept in mind. I played a game recently where I went fade and had a pretty decent KDR but my team still lost, why, teamwork. The marines did the smart thing and stuck together, welding each other and attacking together. They used multiple groups, not just 1 big group consisting of the whole team. I never died as the fade and went 40/5. I still couldn't stop them from killing our last 2hives, and they did just as well a job and dealing with other threats around the map as well.
Also, fades have been made easier to predict and blink is actually slower than blink/hop and is also more detrimental. If you cannot kill this fade, how the heck would you fare pre 250 with fades that could shadowstep circles around you while keeping their speed.
1) have a super fast computer
2) have incredible aim
3) have good teamwork / coordination
if your team lacks any of those things, then a game is designed to be heavily alien-favored
they could easily adjust the game to be balanced for worse players/teams, but they aren't
your issue is that the game is not designed for the settings you play on... which is a valid concern but slightly different than "fade is stupid"
3-5 marines should be able to kill a fade easily. If fades are managing to escape fights with 5 marines, then those marines have awful aim, awful game sense, or both. It's one thing to make a game approachable for new players, but let's not balance this game for the lowest common denominator here.
Let's say the fade is doing this with 2 marines. He's keeping them occupied by blinking in, swiping, and blinking out. What is he accomplishing here that is such a victory for him? He's not taking down res. He's not taking down marine bases. At best he's getting a couple kills that have no affect on the big picture of the game whatsoever. This is not a problem. If anything it's a complete waste of resources for the alien team to use this 40 res lifeform for nothing more than annoying a couple of marines.
If the fade could singlehandedly take down a marine base, that would be one thing. But it can't. It needs other fades, gorges with bile, lerks with umbra, drifters with enzyme. By itself a fade might be able to get a couple cheap kills but it's not good enough to do anything that will drastically affect the game from an RTS standpoint. Fades already are dependent on their teammates, just like marines should be.
Also keep in mind how important fades are to mid and late game alien teams. They are the main units used for fighting. They need to be capable of competing with marines that have shotguns, upgrades, and jetpacks. They have only one chance. If they die even one time, they can't come back. They'll be forced to play as a skulk or gorge. Marines can die many times and continue to respawn. They'll lose their weapons and equipment, but those can be recycled (fades cannot be recycled.) Also, a marine with Armor 2/3 and Weapons 2/3 is better than a skulk. Frankly if the fade became any weaker aliens would have no chance against fully teched marines, they're already at a disadvantage in the late game as it is.
unless you have three gauss exo suits hit a fade fully charged, or several grenades hit head on simultaneously, a fade wont die
now add in the fact that... the fade has an entire team as back up while 50%+ of the marines are trying to scratch a single fade, and you can see why 3-4 fades easily decimate any marine force
you need 5 double barrel exo suits to rush their hives or you have no chance versus fades... thats pretty stupid if you ask me
Onos shouldnt be obsolete because fade is so OP
What very little credibility you may have had was lost with this post. Please stop making yourself look silly.
The point of the Fade is to zoom around the map, find lone marines or small groups of marines, attack them, and get away. Lowering their health a bit isn't going to stop that. You'll still be destroyed 1-on-1 by a fade, and they'll still be an annoyance for 2-3 marines to deal with, because that's what they were designed to do.
They aren't going to kill a base (quickly, anyway), they're not going to take down Exo's without serious backup, and they're definitely not going to go anywhere close to a group of 4+ marines unless they have a death wish. Yes, they don't die unless they fuck up, but fucking up is way easier than you think it is.
The thing you're seeing after the b250 patch is that Fades are now designed to do their job with less hassle than before. With the inclusion of Aura, which lets you spot marines through walls, and blink available right off the bat, Fades now have the presence on the battlefield that they were always meant to have. And yeah, if they play it fairly safe, and if the marine team sucks at aiming, they can manage to get great k/dr. But remember that k/dr is just one aspect of winning a game.
ive seen the same scores as a skulk onos exo marine with rifle shotty or flamer and also lerks before build 250,
and yea the fade is fast and can close the distance with ease but thats what shotguns are for and flamethrowers
few shots to the face and the fade is gone or just burn their energy so they cant blink or shadowstep
Ok
What do you think happen then?
These nerfed 4 fun fades going to die like flies and the same people saying the fade is op starting posts like:
"Why should i invest 40 res into an lifeform that cant do nothing usefull in mid-endgame, shotgun need a nerf so pub fades can have more fun"
The current fade is the result of 3 month intense balancing with the community (competitive AND pub players).
Its funny that threads like this always pop up after sales weekends.
Im surprised that there are no new "where can i report cheaters" going up.
As i mentioned before and im doin this again:
The Fade itself is ok, its little bit to fast in my opinion, but its ok.
Its the lifeform explosion wich is the real problem.
- No proper comm support (No meds, nanos, no A/W upgrades, no scans, no voice commanding, ...)
- No proper marine coordination (staying grouped, blocking off the fade's exit points, ...)
- Poor aim or general skill discrepancy
- Too many fades appearing at the same time
Fades require coordination to take down, the kind of coordination that is hard to come by in pub games. This is actually very similar to a problem aliens have with lategame marine turtles. Those also require a lot of coordination to break (several onos supported by gorges/lerks attacking at the same time) and as such they are frustrating to deal with in pubs.
I'd say both probably need to be addressed, at least in pubs as I can imagine they ruin a lot of player's enjoyment. I.e fix lifeform explosions and give aliens proper lategame tech.
press forward = useless and noisy slow crawl
press backward = useless and noisy slow crawl
press strafe left = useless and noisy slow crawl
press strafe right = useless and noisy slow crawl
press forward + jump + tap blink = actually semi-useful way to move
press jump + strafe + crouch + shadow step + wiggle left/right/left/right + 360 degrees turn + jump = now you are getting the basics right
Hmmmm.... I am sure the new players appreciate the design clarity.
I don't deny that that's another issue with the fade's design. NS2 feels like a game that's made hard to pick up for no discernible reason other than just because. I'm awaiting the patch where marines have to enter the konami code within 0.3s to launch grenades at their target. Miss a button and the grenade goes wide. Skill, amirite?