It's not a design issue though. Fade movement is only hard to pick up because the game itself doesn't actually tell you how to move. People use blink, see they pick up some speed, and assume that's the default way for fades to move around. Once you tell people to simply tap blink+jump (and preferably hold crouch), they're off and running in an instant.
No, seriously, I have NEVER seen a game yet that implements a character whose basic form of movements are actually useless.
For the sake of consistency, why the skulks runs forward at when you press forward? Isn't that too "mainstream"? Granted, it does not run at full speed, you can learn cryptic butt jumps and wall jumps to increase the speed further, so all is not lost for the posh elite, but still. Or lerk, you just press forward and it flies.
Any lifeform including human can slowly shamble, so why don't we have the slow crawls mapped on the default movement keys also for skulk, onos, gorge and lerk, while actually useful modes of movement would have to be activated by complicated and cryptic key sequences you would have to look up in youtube video tutorials?
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
I hate pressing two buttons at once. Hurts my brain. I want to excel at this game and be extremely effective with the least amount of time investment and effort.
I do hope you realise that you're actually complaining about the ingame learning systems, which anyone would agree - are worse than nothing. The movement techniques themselves are more than simple enough to be briefly explained in a tutorial that will never be implemented, if the person honestly can't figure out that you can jump to maintain momentum.
I hate pressing two buttons at once. Hurts my brain. I want to excel at this game and be extremely effective with the least amount of time investment and effort.
I do hope you realise that you're actually complaining about the ingame learning systems, which anyone would agree - are worse than nothing. The movement techniques themselves are more than simple enough to be briefly explained in a tutorial that will never be implemented, if the person honestly can't figure out that you can jump to maintain momentum.
You misunderstand - if on purpose or not I cannot say. But no, I DON'T mind time and effort investment to become good at a game, I invested many years just to chess, after all. If the game is worth it, the effort is worth it. So please don't use these kind of personal attacks on me, it's actually rude and silly.
No, what I complain about is BAD GAME DESIGN. A design that makes things that could be simple needlessly difficult without adding anything worthwhile to the game.
And I will ask you again - why implementing a mode of movement that is absolutely useless in the game - and basic fade movement IS useless, every tutorial starts with warning that the basic movement will get you killed. And when you have to and implement this useless mode of movement, while make it a default movement for a life form? If you put fanboism aside, you will find out there is not a good answer to this question.
There are other useless things in the game, like rifle bash, or to an extent, babblers. But I don't mind them, since they actually don't do much harm, they resemble the appendix in the human body - a rudiment of the past evolution that presently servers no purpose. But fade, this is a game design atrocity, and I think it should be actually included in game design textbooks as an example.
There is enough elements in the game that cannot be simplified without taking from the game depth, but making simple things needlessly difficult is shooting one's leg.
I know that fade won't be changed, it was in NS1 and the devs probably have emotionally and otherwise invested into it, but that does not make it any less wrong.
And blaming people's supposed stupidity and simplicity is a truly valid argument either. Look at chess - simple rules, simple moves. Incredible depth.
Why were Starcraft progamers that much stronger than any pub player? Because they knew a lot of stuff and had a skill advantage with macro and micro management. You could argue "Why to I have to pull back my damaged units by myself, why don't they retreat automatically?" - because thats a personal skill called micro management, and it makes all the difference between an average player or an advanced player. Please accept that fade movement is a skill like aiming or map awareness. And by the way, it's not impossible to learn it with just 30 minutes training.
Please do not compare micromanagement in StarCraft to fade movement. Your marines would still function without micromanagement in SC even if you lose the battle, but walking around as a fade is just.... no. Micromanagement is something that the player adds to his game to enhance it whereas blink/jumping as a fade is something you HAVE to do in order to be a functional fade. It does not enhance anything. It's making up for the deficiency that is its default movement ability.
So you had to make a new account instead of just bumbing your own old thread. Gj
Haha. This guy is not me. But very funny that someone posted a new thread like mine. So its clear that the fade is a serious public-problem. maybe not a fade alone, but the fade-explosion in midgame.
No, what I complain about is BAD GAME DESIGN. A design that makes things that could be simple needlessly difficult without adding anything worthwhile to the game.
And I will ask you again - why implementing a mode of movement that is absolutely useless in the game - and basic fade movement IS useless, every tutorial starts with warning that the basic movement will get you killed. And when you have to and implement this useless mode of movement, while make it a default movement for a life form? If you put fanboism aside, you will find out there is not a good answer to this question.
Wow. Just wow. Just because YOU think something is bad design doesn't make it so, don't throw your opinion around as if it's fact.
A none blinking/shadowstepping fade is slow because it's called a trade off. Fast while on the move (blinking) slow while trying to move and swipe while not blinking. It's a moment of weakness, a time when the fade is most easily hit. i.e the fade has to be careful, plan and take things into consideration. Good game design, really... in my opinion of course.
I think people who are crying about fades never dying need to realize that they are designed not to die. If a fade dies it's a huge blow to the alien team... there's no way to get it back other than waiting for that player to get back to 40 or have the commander invest 70 freaking resources in getting one up. In a lot of situations this simply isn't possible given the current res flow. If fades were made weaker they would drop too fast and the aliens would quickly fall behind marines with no conceivable way of getting back in it.
Remember people, this game is a mixture of RTS and FPS and it's also asymmetrical. Some lifeforms are inherently meant to be more powerful than others, and this is balanced because they cost res. 40 res fades should not die easily to 0 res marines, that's poor game design and completely throws off the balance. Look at what happened to the aliens when their 60 res lategame lifeform got nerfed, now it's nearly impossible to break through marine turtles. Marines and aliens are meant to be played different ways. With marines it's okay to die. With aliens, at least in the case of higher lifeforms, it's not. If there's going to be such a huge penalty for losing a lifeform I would hope that it requires coordination to take it down. This game would not be enjoyable if it didn't.
And @MrRayCharles the Onos isn't irrelevant because the Fade is too good... it's irrelevant because people like you kept complaining about how powerful it was and it ended up getting nerfed so hard that it isn't even worth playing any more.
90% of the time, fades die because they made a mistake. The other 10% of the time, they got insta-peaced from 2 marines with shotguns.
Since a single marine with meds and a shotgun can force a fade to retreat, I find this thread humorous. None the less, carry on. You will be my entertainment at work for the next hour.
No, what I complain about is BAD GAME DESIGN. A design that makes things that could be simple needlessly difficult without adding anything worthwhile to the game.
And I will ask you again - why implementing a mode of movement that is absolutely useless in the game - and basic fade movement IS useless, every tutorial starts with warning that the basic movement will get you killed. And when you have to and implement this useless mode of movement, while make it a default movement for a life form? If you put fanboism aside, you will find out there is not a good answer to this question.
Wow. Just wow. Just because YOU think something is bad design doesn't make it so, don't throw your opinion around as if it's fact.
A none blinking/shadowstepping fade is slow because it's called a trade off. Fast while on the move (blinking) slow while trying to move and swipe while not blinking. It's a moment of weakness, a time when the fade is most easily hit. i.e the fade has to be careful, plan and take things into consideation. Good game design, really... in my opinion of course.
Anyway this isn't really my argument against fade. Other than the strafe keys to reduce momentum loss while turning I don't really think fade is specifically more complex than it needs to be. My only problem with a fade is that it is too easy to simply run away from literally any situation they couldn't just avoid from the start. Skulk is the lifeform that really needs to be addressed in terms of unnecessary complexity.
forcing a fade to retreat is a victory. You don't have to kill him to win.
Sure, good fades in pubs will never die. And those competitive games you watch where fades never die: how often do they kill marines? Most of the time they're forced to retreat and they accomplish nothing. The game stays balanced.
MrRayChales you sir have NOT been playing NS2 for very long. Fade is more mobile in build 250 because he hops now so the fade is mostly visible when moving. compared to when NS2 was first launched the fade was invisible and untouchable when blinking, so they nerfed the fade, they've been working on it since. The balance in this game is very complicated and always changing. You sir have been educated.
2x flamethrower vs. fade = dead fade. Flame Throwers and GL's are my preferred way to destroy fades, up close GL shot really sucks, but if you can dodge the fade long enough when he goes to escape fire a couple Grenades ahead and catch him when hes low health. Works wonders!
Fades do not need a nerf until Marines get a huge one.
Its basically a flying stealth tank that can kill you in a couple swipes. Its the only unit pulling 50-1 ratios, and its the only unit that makes players not want to play this otherwise amazing game.
A pro marine cant do half the damage a mediocre fade can.
You need to play the game more, just about every sentence in that post is flat out incorrect. The reason you see fades going 50:1 is due to skill imbalance. Right now due to the steam sales we have tons of new players to the game creating crazy imblanced teams potentially. See my image below as case in point. I went gorge the second the game started....
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2013
Gorges are unstoppable self healing tanks that can hide behind walls of hydras.
Everyone know this.
Its the only class than can heal itself.
And the gorge can spawn an army of annoying little death bringing minions. This should be nerfed.
In the end: gorges are absolutely stupid right now.
The screenshot proof this.
I think this is the biggest problem. New players, no matter how well the team does, see their horrible K/D and feel crappy. This game is so much more about territory and engagements then K/D. I wish we could hide everyone's deaths and only see your own. That way you dont feel like a tool when you go 10-50 trying to complete an impossible objective. I am a decent player and can pull 5:1 and up, but there are times i get antsy and lose my higher lifeform. Then i proceed to try to turn the tide of a lost game by power node rushes or assault chambers. Does this make me a bad player having a 1:1? of course not. But we all still have that mentality due to the FPS aspect of the game.
As others have said, Fades are great against loner marines, but when there is a marine ball (3+marines) that know how to shoot? It is suicide. If Fades are killing you non stop i encourage you to try team work out and stop ramboing
Oh god... please don't change this from a fade OP thread to gorge OP. Current1y plays a very smart gorge. In pubs where comms don't always drop meds, a gorge can easily do well. 50-0 is a statement about his skill, not the class itself. Like he said, the classes are fine right now. It's the giant skill difference that is causing these stupid high kdr. Also, half of the games population are <20 hour rookies.
Already stated this: not a problem with the Fade itself although I'd prefer to see a better balance of the biomass increment, more the problem that rookies are kinda forced to get dominated by experienced fade players. I've seen average-at-best fades go flawless vs a bad marine team, hell I'm one of those fades.
Game needs a rookie only mode with rookie extended to 20 hours or skill-based matchmaking at least something that alleviates the problem of pub stomping.
a few things, bile on armor is pretty op as it stands, especially in a support role. i will gladly lol at the 50-0 gorge victory, victory for the hive mind. Also, that guy complaining about the useless fade "run" is right. wtf people, even if you feel that the fade blink+jump+shenanigans is in a good place right now, that shouldn't bias you to the fact that fade walk is completely pointless. i think less noobs would actually die if they disabled walking altogether and i don't think many people would miss it. same thing for lerk crawl, crawl is almost completely pointless. it's killing new players, it'd be better if completely disabled rather than be the default of people who assume movement with standard movement inputs is the way to actually move in a game.
a few things, bile on armor is pretty op as it stands, especially in a support role. i will gladly lol at the 50-0 gorge victory, victory for the hive mind. Also, that guy complaining about the useless fade "run" is right. wtf people, even if you feel that the fade blink+jump+shenanigans is in a good place right now, that shouldn't bias you to the fact that fade walk is completely pointless. i think less noobs would actually die if they disabled walking altogether and i don't think many people would miss it. same thing for lerk crawl, crawl is almost completely pointless. it's killing new players, it'd be better if completely disabled rather than be the default of people who assume movement with standard movement inputs is the way to actually move in a game.
I find the fade walk EXTREMELY useful so i'm quite perplexed as to why you say its completely useless. Being 100% dependent on energy to move sounds like a absolute terrible mechanic to put in place. Not to mention with blink you woudln't really be able to fine tune your positioning around structures or in combat.
Maybe you don't really mean actually remove it but instead were just making a point about how easy it is for new players to get killed while walking?
Comments
It's not a design issue though. Fade movement is only hard to pick up because the game itself doesn't actually tell you how to move. People use blink, see they pick up some speed, and assume that's the default way for fades to move around. Once you tell people to simply tap blink+jump (and preferably hold crouch), they're off and running in an instant.
For the sake of consistency, why the skulks runs forward at when you press forward? Isn't that too "mainstream"? Granted, it does not run at full speed, you can learn cryptic butt jumps and wall jumps to increase the speed further, so all is not lost for the posh elite, but still. Or lerk, you just press forward and it flies.
Any lifeform including human can slowly shamble, so why don't we have the slow crawls mapped on the default movement keys also for skulk, onos, gorge and lerk, while actually useful modes of movement would have to be activated by complicated and cryptic key sequences you would have to look up in youtube video tutorials?
I do hope you realise that you're actually complaining about the ingame learning systems, which anyone would agree - are worse than nothing. The movement techniques themselves are more than simple enough to be briefly explained in a tutorial that will never be implemented, if the person honestly can't figure out that you can jump to maintain momentum.
You misunderstand - if on purpose or not I cannot say. But no, I DON'T mind time and effort investment to become good at a game, I invested many years just to chess, after all. If the game is worth it, the effort is worth it. So please don't use these kind of personal attacks on me, it's actually rude and silly.
No, what I complain about is BAD GAME DESIGN. A design that makes things that could be simple needlessly difficult without adding anything worthwhile to the game.
And I will ask you again - why implementing a mode of movement that is absolutely useless in the game - and basic fade movement IS useless, every tutorial starts with warning that the basic movement will get you killed. And when you have to and implement this useless mode of movement, while make it a default movement for a life form? If you put fanboism aside, you will find out there is not a good answer to this question.
There are other useless things in the game, like rifle bash, or to an extent, babblers. But I don't mind them, since they actually don't do much harm, they resemble the appendix in the human body - a rudiment of the past evolution that presently servers no purpose. But fade, this is a game design atrocity, and I think it should be actually included in game design textbooks as an example.
There is enough elements in the game that cannot be simplified without taking from the game depth, but making simple things needlessly difficult is shooting one's leg.
I know that fade won't be changed, it was in NS1 and the devs probably have emotionally and otherwise invested into it, but that does not make it any less wrong.
And blaming people's supposed stupidity and simplicity is a truly valid argument either. Look at chess - simple rules, simple moves. Incredible depth.
Haha. This guy is not me. But very funny that someone posted a new thread like mine. So its clear that the fade is a serious public-problem. maybe not a fade alone, but the fade-explosion in midgame.
Wow. Just wow. Just because YOU think something is bad design doesn't make it so, don't throw your opinion around as if it's fact.
A none blinking/shadowstepping fade is slow because it's called a trade off. Fast while on the move (blinking) slow while trying to move and swipe while not blinking. It's a moment of weakness, a time when the fade is most easily hit. i.e the fade has to be careful, plan and take things into consideration. Good game design, really... in my opinion of course.
Remember people, this game is a mixture of RTS and FPS and it's also asymmetrical. Some lifeforms are inherently meant to be more powerful than others, and this is balanced because they cost res. 40 res fades should not die easily to 0 res marines, that's poor game design and completely throws off the balance. Look at what happened to the aliens when their 60 res lategame lifeform got nerfed, now it's nearly impossible to break through marine turtles. Marines and aliens are meant to be played different ways. With marines it's okay to die. With aliens, at least in the case of higher lifeforms, it's not. If there's going to be such a huge penalty for losing a lifeform I would hope that it requires coordination to take it down. This game would not be enjoyable if it didn't.
And @MrRayCharles the Onos isn't irrelevant because the Fade is too good... it's irrelevant because people like you kept complaining about how powerful it was and it ended up getting nerfed so hard that it isn't even worth playing any more.
Since a single marine with meds and a shotgun can force a fade to retreat, I find this thread humorous. None the less, carry on. You will be my entertainment at work for the next hour.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/depth-vs.-complexity
Anyway this isn't really my argument against fade. Other than the strafe keys to reduce momentum loss while turning I don't really think fade is specifically more complex than it needs to be. My only problem with a fade is that it is too easy to simply run away from literally any situation they couldn't just avoid from the start. Skulk is the lifeform that really needs to be addressed in terms of unnecessary complexity.
Sure, good fades in pubs will never die. And those competitive games you watch where fades never die: how often do they kill marines? Most of the time they're forced to retreat and they accomplish nothing. The game stays balanced.
Stop thinking of the game in K/D terms.
Phase 1 (as marine): kill skulks, build RT's, deny alien RT's.
Phase 2 (as marine): fades and lerks are out. Don't try to kill alien RT's unless a big hole opens up. Focus on defense and killing higher life forms.
Phase 3 (as marine): get exo and pwn shit.
Fades do not need a nerf until Marines get a huge one.
Everyone know this.
Its the only class than can heal itself.
And the gorge can spawn an army of annoying little death bringing minions. This should be nerfed.
In the end: gorges are absolutely stupid right now.
The screenshot proof this.
I think this is the biggest problem. New players, no matter how well the team does, see their horrible K/D and feel crappy. This game is so much more about territory and engagements then K/D. I wish we could hide everyone's deaths and only see your own. That way you dont feel like a tool when you go 10-50 trying to complete an impossible objective. I am a decent player and can pull 5:1 and up, but there are times i get antsy and lose my higher lifeform. Then i proceed to try to turn the tide of a lost game by power node rushes or assault chambers. Does this make me a bad player having a 1:1? of course not. But we all still have that mentality due to the FPS aspect of the game.
As others have said, Fades are great against loner marines, but when there is a marine ball (3+marines) that know how to shoot? It is suicide. If Fades are killing you non stop i encourage you to try team work out and stop ramboing
I WENT 20-0 AGAINST NEW PLAYERS TODAY AS SKULK, THAT'S PROOF
ALSO THE ENTIRE TEAM STARTS AS SKULKS, TALK ABOUT A LIFEFORM EXPLOSION
UWE PLZ NERF SO THAT SKULKS CANNOT MOVE, THAT WAY MARINES CAN HIT THEM WITHOUT HAVING TO AIM
Game needs a rookie only mode with rookie extended to 20 hours or skill-based matchmaking at least something that alleviates the problem of pub stomping.
hah, but still, walking is pretty damn pointless, especially outside of combat.
I find the fade walk EXTREMELY useful so i'm quite perplexed as to why you say its completely useless. Being 100% dependent on energy to move sounds like a absolute terrible mechanic to put in place. Not to mention with blink you woudln't really be able to fine tune your positioning around structures or in combat.
Maybe you don't really mean actually remove it but instead were just making a point about how easy it is for new players to get killed while walking?
What else is a giant bunny to do?