Fade is absolutely stupid right now
MrRayChales
Join Date: 2013-07-21 Member: 186255Members
Join Date: 2013-07-21 Member: 186255Members
Before you go crying its stacked teams, etc, I see fades going 40+:1 rations A LOT. I can have really good marines on my team, shotguns, etc, and fades easily teleport in, rape some guy in 2 near instant swings, and teleport out. Meanwhile he can get lit up like a Christmas tree and take multiple shotgun hits from a squad of 4-5 marines and have no problem surviving.
The speed, insane amount of health, and very high damage makes a fade 100x more scary than an Ono. Ono's are scary, but at least they cant teleport to your face and nearly one shot you and fly away unscathed. An Ono will actually take damage and cant take on 5-8 people like a single fade can.
Im seeing end-game aliens usually just going all fades and skipping Onos. A mere 3-4 fades can decimate 12 players with ease in every single game I have seen reach that point. The fade needs a serious HP reduction if it is going to remain such a fast unit. A unit cannot have both near instant kills, tank-role HP/armor, and scount/instant extreme speed. The combination makes the unit far too good in the hands of anyone that knows how to use WASD + mouse buttons...
EDIT: I like how the people that disagree basically confirm exactly what I am saying. "Oh, wahh, you just need 4-5 coordinated marines to try and defend against them"
You realize thats around half your team for a single enemy unit right? You realize that if he plays cautious, even 4-5 marines wont stand a shot at killing him right? You realize that mid game + they can end up with 4-5 fades right? So what do you do against 2 onos, 6 fades, and the rest gorgers? Nothing, you just die. You need to base rush them and hope they don't rape your asshole before you kill the hive.
90% of the disagreement posts here are players biased towards alien or their own fade play, as their suggestions on how to counter this "balanced" unit basically sum up that a fade can be countered by your entire team... dont find the fact that each fade also has a team with an equal number of players.
The fade concept is great. Even make it have easier kills... but it doesnt need 400+ hp and instant teleporting speed. Is it really that hard to make an assassin type unit that also isnt a tank that can never die unless played by a first timer?
The speed, insane amount of health, and very high damage makes a fade 100x more scary than an Ono. Ono's are scary, but at least they cant teleport to your face and nearly one shot you and fly away unscathed. An Ono will actually take damage and cant take on 5-8 people like a single fade can.
Im seeing end-game aliens usually just going all fades and skipping Onos. A mere 3-4 fades can decimate 12 players with ease in every single game I have seen reach that point. The fade needs a serious HP reduction if it is going to remain such a fast unit. A unit cannot have both near instant kills, tank-role HP/armor, and scount/instant extreme speed. The combination makes the unit far too good in the hands of anyone that knows how to use WASD + mouse buttons...
EDIT: I like how the people that disagree basically confirm exactly what I am saying. "Oh, wahh, you just need 4-5 coordinated marines to try and defend against them"
You realize thats around half your team for a single enemy unit right? You realize that if he plays cautious, even 4-5 marines wont stand a shot at killing him right? You realize that mid game + they can end up with 4-5 fades right? So what do you do against 2 onos, 6 fades, and the rest gorgers? Nothing, you just die. You need to base rush them and hope they don't rape your asshole before you kill the hive.
90% of the disagreement posts here are players biased towards alien or their own fade play, as their suggestions on how to counter this "balanced" unit basically sum up that a fade can be countered by your entire team... dont find the fact that each fade also has a team with an equal number of players.
The fade concept is great. Even make it have easier kills... but it doesnt need 400+ hp and instant teleporting speed. Is it really that hard to make an assassin type unit that also isnt a tank that can never die unless played by a first timer?
Comments
Unless the fade was very cautious and escapes with a lot of health remaining, and provided your accuracy is decent, you'll be able to shoot it down as it flees.
It may not work every time (e.g. fade escapes down a different route), but if you keep doing it you'll get the fade eventually.
When you get destroyed by a fade, keep in mind that that HE WILL DIE HORRIBLY to 2-3 direct shotguns witch by the way shoot faster than he can swipe. Statistically, you should work on your aim/teamplay ( this is coming from a mediocre player) Or you can use the cheatmode FT + JP and like a bawws pornstar your way through those poor aliens. Also keep in mind that your free w3 MG hands down outdamages nearly anything aliens can field. Ask a pro smurf witch can beat 3 skulks with one mg clip and then
With that shitty nerf to cara and onos, whips, and rines ability to field exos, JP and full upgrades with one CC AND raised skill for aliens to pro levels in order to be effective alien in a game that has middle name "in what more way to kill evil aliens" asking for even more nerfs to the unit that gets outdated anyway in late game is monumental stupidity.
I once had a face get stuck next to me in the map and it rooted him. I had the shotgun... at this point, hed already taken damage so I figured Id just walk up and one shot him. It too three fuhking solid shots at near point blank range to finish him off (100% of bullets hitting).
So yeah, in normal combat you can expect 5-7 direct shotgun blasts at near close range. A half decent fade will blink in, 1 shot someone, and blink away. Aint no way he dying.
Hence, every other game where the aliens focus fades, you see 60-4 K/D ratios.
Its stupid.... simple as that.
1 face can easily get 1-2 kills in a group of 4-5 marines and escape without dying. Have a situation with a team of 12, get a mere 3 fades in and marines cant do squat. Figure there are also 9 more alien bodies that can come in (skulks, whatever) and marines have no chance.
Fade, pure and simple, needs a nerf to its HP or its movement.
However, for the vast majority of cases as with your examples, it's a simple case of being outskilled. Also understand that the fade is not designed to have anything but very high kdr ratios (it is a lifeform you can only buy every 8-10 minutes). What matters more is kpm (kills per minute), pushing power, and map presence among other things.
A fade cannot 'take on' and decimate 5-8 marines unless the following three conditions are met
a) The marines can't aim for crap
b) The fade is good
c) The marine commander and/or marine team is bad and did not med or get res/proper build order for enough upgrades
I would suggest not thinking about 'how op fade is' and first try to improve your play so that you can enjoy your game time better
For one, don't judge the fade based on pub play. So many rookies everywhere now. For an experienced player, it's so very very easy to rack up the kills at the moment. Just like it's super easy for a good marine to stomp a rookie alien team. So a lot of it has to do with player skill levels, and not the lifeform itself. The fade is actually in a pretty good place now imo, better than before. Just see what happens when you pit them against equally skilled marine players. Watch some comp games.
You also have to take in account that fades are a big investment for the alien team. If one goes down, it's a big blow for the aliens, much more of a blow than losing a couple of shotguns for instance. And it takes a while to replace a fade. So they are designed to be able to engage/disengage quickly, they have to be. They also suck at taking out marine structures. And because it's so important for them not to die, you can force them to retreat if you do a bit of damage.
The thing is, if you can force a fade to retreat, you've won the engagement, but most people don't understand this. They only see something that's hard to kill, check the K/D ratio and assume it's OP.
In short, don't assume fades are OP just because they tend to have a high K/D ratio, not until you've actually seen equally skilled teams battle it out.
"A bowl of delicious soup was spoiled by two lumps of bird droppings."
Recite in fake kung-fu master accent!
A fade should always do this. Always. Always leave with more than 2/3rds HP and there is no way the marines can kill you unless you run into an even bigger group than you are running away from.
It really doesn't even take much skill. I can do a 40+ kill fade if the game lasts long enough, although it will never be 40:1 because I'll probably have 9 deaths as skulk before that. Skilled play is what's needed to get ridiculous numbers of kills, but even a fade who is chased off without killing anybody is successful in delaying or even pinning down the marines.
I do think the fade is balanced too much for really good players though, the game demands people are at their a game in order to make the fade a fair creature. Which is fine, but only when it is a competetive match with competent teams. In pubs this is not balanced because there's no noob way of taking a fade out. The only way to take a fade out is by being really damn good at marine.
I was fade doing exact what the OP describes and end up around 55-4 stats. Btw the marines where horrible in that game and i had no problem blinking around 5 marines without any damage. Dont know how many rookies the marineteam had.
Anyway
One of the marines start to cry that the fade is overpowered.
I was exaplaining that the fade is a very fragile creature for 40 res and good marines can kill them relative easy.
Answer: "No, the fade is OP"
I said: "Ok, if the fade itself is OP, then it should be easy for every fade to get high kd/r, go fade next round and show me how OP a fade is"
In the end:
He was fade next round and died in his 1st engagement after 20 sec.
Thats what i called OP, ..... NOT
The fade itself isnt OP, its the "fadeplosion" if multiple fades pop up @ the same time.
I don't mean to be rude but this is complete bollocks. If a fade stays for any more than a couple of seconds and doesnt die in that kind of situation, well you've either got some very incompetent marines or they're distracted by other alien life forms (how it should be), in which case you've been out-played.
Cara is next to nothing but with cara fades have the same 100 armor and significantly more HP than pre 25, combat regen gives them even more survivability so overall fades take MUCH longer to kill which means they have much more time to get out of combat and go heal.
Fades op? No. Tricky to kill? Kinda but not really, just requires teamwork and a little bit of aim. I'm not a pro, but I've killed several fades simply because they engaged me and 2 other marines and we focus fired them down before they got away. I'm a decent Fade player since that's about all I practice with besides the skulk, and I've got to say, that usually before or slightly after I go fade, I already know how good my opponents are at shooting and which ones to be careful around. If I know none of them can shoot worth anything I dance circles around them witling them away. If they are good I'm mostly never going in unless they aren't prepared for me or I'm at full hp, and then regardless I'll never stick around. Its never a 1 shot by the way, if you have armor 0 its 2 hits, if you have armor 3, its 5 hits.
Fades may be OP in a sense but right now it is impossible to call because everyone is new so give it time and we will see.
apart from proper macro positioning by teammates to trap the fade...
Many marines don't seem to understand the different phases of the game. when fades are up, marines have to switch focus to killing lifeforms. 2 minutes spent trapping fades can totally deny the aliens their midgame and even turn around a losing battle.
And how do you trap the fade when all he has to do is turn around and he's in friendly territory? And what does it even matter if you do "trap" him if he just flies over your heads at 2/3rds health going 24 speed units and your perfectly planned out shotgun ambush simply can't connect.
Many marines DO shift focus to killing lifeforms at that point, and they get absolutely wrecked because killing those lifeforms is completely out of their hands. The only way to kill a fade (or possibly lerk) is for that fade to slip up and overcommit, which is always 100% avoidable for that fade.
I dunno how to fix the issue or if there's an issue to be fixed but even though playstyles like Fades are good for competitive play since marines have an easier time vs them, it's absolutely atrocious for pub play because just one good fade can DOMINATE an average or less team. Terrible design if you ask me in a game that kinda forces noobs vs good players frequently, it would work in a skill based matchmaking design but that's not gonna happen anytime soon. Sure good marine players can be a real nightmare as well but at least they can be surrounded and killed and lose that res investment, fades are just immune to death if they play smart.
Since shotguns are often referred to as the counter to fades, why not have right click on shotgun basically be the 249 shotgun, slower reload and rate of fire but higher damage per shot? Only works vs fades and onos.
Most players are steam sale guys I get that but since the patch, fades feel really strong and they definitely seem to be more favorable than onos in dealing with marines and exos unless it's breaking 1 base marines which shouldn't be the case. Onos with cara, celerity and aura (84 res) and 3 hive full biomass can just barely beat a dual mini exo (60 res) with no backup or welders both at full hp with the onos getting at least one melee hit off before the exo starts shooting.
A focus on competitive play and the higher end of the skill "spectrum" is admirable but it's not good for long term development of the game. Games like this don't exist anymore in the current market for good reason. This game won't grow without some sort of rookie-only support at the very least, MOBAs wouldn't be anywhere near as popular as they are today without ELO and category matchmaking. Of course the population of the game is too low to support that but Blacklight: Retribution uses dedicated search servers like NS2 but they also have rank 1-10 servers only as well which are perfect for new players. I really enjoyed the game and got learn it with others in these servers, I feel that NS2 could really benefit from a system like this. Well NS2 doesn't have ranks and progression so how about rookie status lasting about 20 hours and server only allowing rookies with < 20 hours played?
TL;DR - The problem lies primarily not with the Fade itself (although I still think it needs a little tweaking) but with the introduction of rookies into the game. Have rookie only servers, extend rookie to 20 hours. Also where's the next build? Been almost 4 weeks and still a lot of people are having technical problems like menu not functioning. It's pretty much the main complaint of the game on the steam NS2 forums.
Fades are more for distracting and hit&run attacks.
If you know where the fade is, he cant distract.
If you know where the fade is, you can trap him.
As i mentioned before. A single fade should not be a problem for an half competent team.
The problem are the 4 fades attacking together.
Those players are not going 40-1 because the Fade is imbalanced, they're going 40-1 because they're good.
I swear, so many people these days can't accept that there are people who are better at games than they are and every time they die they have to rationalize things.... How about instead of blaming the game's design you actually just keep playing and try to get better?
Played a game yesterday where we were hopelessly out matched 4 IP's lvl 2 armor and they could not kill us fast enough... We took hive after hive but I barley had a broke even score and the aliens were averaging 10-1
I can do it, which is proof enough that there is an ENORMOUS gulf in skill between what it takes to kill a fade and what it takes to survive as a fade.
3 direct hits with low biomass maybe. If a fade runs into a corridor being flooded with nades he's an idiot and deserves to die.
Against all the rookies that play NS2 for the 1st time? Yes, im sure you going to have an high KD/R.
But thats not the point.
You read different posts about skill and competent marines here, a "greeny" isnt both of that.
I didnt know you.
And i didnt know your skill.
But after reading your post, im sure you going to die very fast against skilled marines.
Against skilled marines its going to be like following:
- You blink in *bam* 1st shotgunhit
- You hit the marine 2 times, but the com dropping some medpacks
- You blink around the marine *bam* a 2nd hit, but not enough to kill you
- You hit the marine again
Now comes the moment the marine or the fade can win this.
You decide to blink around to distract the marine, *oops* no energy to escape
*bam* your dead
Blink in, swipe once, blink out. If you are still good to go, do it again. Never stay close enough to a marine long enough that he can get a second shotgun round off, whether he hits with his first or not.
^^This
That is pretty much all you need to do to be a wrecking machine as a fade. Even if you don't get kills, just that distraction is huge.
dePARA's scenario is for bad fades.
Good fades in a pub server are much too difficult to take down because the marines in a pub server are not going to have the coordination to cut a fades escape routes off to take him down. You basically have to have the coordination of 50-75% of the marine team to take down ONE good fade in a pub server. There's just something absurdly wrong with that.