I have one suggestion for docking and thats to remove the crate leading into stability / strand. I can understand its there to block direct line of sight....but it seems near impossible for it to even to fit into the room to begin with :P
Wang TangJoin Date: 2004-08-18Member: 30699Members
edited June 2013
I don't like the new docking. I also only read the first 4 pages, it evolved into a sarcasm+attack war by both pro- and opponents of the changes, could we stop that?
I cannot exactly tell you why I dislike it, so please don't stone me if I only try to explain:
a) 4 point tech maps are not necessarily bad. On Veil, with teams that are not overly unbalanced (and not having a 20:1 player on one side...), it is almost always the case that you get 2 vs 2 tech points. But on the new Docking, it is more often than not the case that you get 3:1 tech points for marines. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but that's the only evidence I have, and ruins the map for me. Cafe tech point cost the marines time and resources; they can now ignore that and just have the free rt there.
b) Courtyard seems much more central to me than before. Marines can now so easily intercept not only locker expansion, but also departures expansion, which leads to 3:1 TP or no alien RT or both.
c) The whole Cafe+Landing location is now even more dead than before - and can't be used by aliens as an interception point. We had some impossibly fun ninja hive drops there in the versions where you could put a shade in central access, and even when that location was altered we could do sneaky hive drops without a shade, which saved games and turned them around. This is now not possible anymore.
d) The TP situation might be alleviated by 250. I only read the changes and haven't played BT, so please correct me if I'm wrong; but the changes seem to me to speed up the game quite heavily. Also, focus seems to be taken off from the TPs, which may make this 4-TP approach more viable. Nonetheless, b) still stands, and obviously I'd have to play the BT/250 changes first to see how this pans out, however:
This release was too early. Had this been released with 250, I'd guess there had not been nearly as much hate for the changes as is now. Reading the proposed changes I feel the map is much more viable (in its current version) using 250 rules.
Also, to add some personal controversity: I didn't think docking had many problems at all. Sure, stab mon sniping was bad, but I have only seen ARCs being used there to full effect in 1 out of >100 games. I don't know, but maybe we Europeans play this game differently, with less use of strategic aspects or such? I probably just got lucky (as an alien).
Oh, and remember: even anecdotal evidence can stack up. Many of the people I play with don't like the new docking at all, and aliens are getting stomped left and right.
This paragraph is only valid if the group of maptesters is small (I don't know about that): If so (which would be perfectly fine, there is no real possible way around that), however the composition of the groups used to playtest, I assume they cannot capture the variety of characters/skillsets often seen on pubs. Because of this, the real maptest is when the map hits the fan (scnr).
To add to some of the posts above, I have to concur that the map seems to have lost some originality. But this last point may well be, as some noted, due to the novelty of the changed parts. Anyway, that's how I feel about it at the moment.
Also on the non-informativeness of some of the critic-posts: just the notion they exist should tell you that there are flaws. Where that flaws lie could tell you a close examination of the parts that changed since the last iteration. It is also a bit unfair to just point the flak on the negative non-informative posts, while all the jubilant posts with no detailed positive critic pass right through.
This was too long, I aplogize (also for the speculation where I don't have complete information). Good night everyone.
I've played several games on the new docking and had a chance to study the layout changes. I am confident in saying they are all for the better. They've retained the character of map, while improving the gameplay in every way.
Nothing good has been removed from the map!
It is now more streamlined, more balanced and the new rooms are just more interesting and fun to fight in.
I guess that only 40% of the map has actually been changed, and most of the changes consist of moving rooms around.
My question is; what is it exactly you miss from the previous build?
All the negative space and redundant routes?
The OP vents that allowed skulks to bypass very large sections of the map?
The dirty locker/central arc position?
The ease at which marines could rush stability and lock down alien expansion?.....
I understand people are frustrated that they'll have to 'relearn' a map after dedicating many hours to doing so, but I can guarantee once you take the time revise your tactics you'll agree that the changes are for the best.
Moreover, the classic docking mod is on the workshop, If the new docking really is that bad then why aren't any servers (that I've seen) using this mod?
@amoral I appreciate the point you're trying to make with that analogy.. But it just doesn't hold up. People tend to see doctors when there is something wrong, like black dots or squiggly things in your eye, to use your optometrist example.
As a customer /player / patient,
You provide the symptom and the professional provides the solution.
"Dr it hurts" "where?" "I don't know I'm not a doctor" just doesn't work unless he's a mind reader. Even inaccurate symptoms are better than nothing.
or, I can't see shit... "what's wrong with your eyes?" if I were a doctor, you'd be out a c note... not liking a map is a pretty big symptom. more detailed questions will lead to more detailed responses. I don't like the flow of games on docking. I don't like how central plays, I don't like how skulks play on the map, I don't like how strong the marine team is on docking. I don't know what else to say but that the map changes are really not to my liking. but all that I can really say for sure is that the previous docking was less objectionable to me than the current form.
I've played several games on the new docking and had a chance to study the layout changes. I am confident in saying they are all for the better. They've retained the character of map, while improving the gameplay in every way.
Nothing good has been removed from the map!
It is now more streamlined, more balanced and the new rooms are just more interesting and fun to fight in.
I guess that only 40% of the map has actually been changed, and most of the changes consist of moving rooms around.
My question is; what is it exactly you miss from the previous build?
All the negative space and redundant routes?
The OP vents that allowed skulks to bypass very large sections of the map?
The dirty locker/central arc position?
The ease at which marines could rush stability and lock down alien expansion?.....
I understand people are frustrated that they'll have to 'relearn' a map after dedicating many hours to doing so, but I can guarantee once you take the time revise your tactics you'll agree that the changes are for the best.
Moreover, the classic docking mod is on the workshop, If the new docking really is that bad then why aren't any servers (that I've seen) using this mod?
I actually do miss the vents. they are called shortcuts for a reason. marines have phases, aliens have better mobility and vent system. I don't like that as a skulk I get no advantage in mobility and it's more difficult to avoid confrontation if I have to.
It is also a bit unfair to just point the flak on the negative non-informative posts, while all the jubilant posts with no detailed positive critic pass right through.
Huh?
If you like the changes but give no information, cool, guess the changes were for the best.
If you dislike the changes but give no information, there's not much that can be done to fix that?
Guess the worst you could say from that result is the mappers really want to make a map everyone loves?
You, btw, gave amazing feedback and get an awesome from me. :-bd
Amoral : I can understand why- for an alien, having vents can be a fun way to navigate the map. but from a design perspective having them bypass half the map without risk of being spotted let alone being shot is just not good design. It unfairly lets the aliens flank marine positions, go behind their front lines or just annoyingly snipe rt's. and while I believe aliens should be able to do these things, I feel the sneaky bypasses should be within the rooms and corridors or at least broken into smaller vents so marines have the opportunity to counter such dirty alien behavior (as they now do). Some of the vents in the previous build of docking were just there to allow aliens to bypass the OP choke points (stability monitoring), this isn't a good solution as you still can't cyst out through vents.
These issues have now been fixed.
Amoral : I can understand why- for an alien, having vents can be a fun way to navigate the map. but from a design perspective having them bypass half the map without risk of being spotted let alone being shot is just not good design. It unfairly lets the aliens flank marine positions, go behind their front lines or just annoyingly snipe rt's. and while I believe aliens should be able to do these things, I feel the sneaky bypasses should be within the rooms and corridors or at least broken into smaller vents so marines have the opportunity to counter such dirty alien behavior (as they now do). Some of the vents in the previous build of docking were just there to allow aliens to bypass the OP choke points (stability monitoring), this isn't a good solution as you still can't cyst out through vents.
These issues have now been fixed.
what you call unfairly flanking, I call an intentional and necessary mechanic of the design of the game. how do I close the distance properly if I can only attack from one direction and marines can all cover it? one of the things people bring up to counter the argument of a marine deathball being OP, is that you don't have to engage them head on, or that you can engage them from multiple angles and avenues. if you make a map that forces aliens to navigate through chokes to attack res, you're not letting me harass properly, if you make it so that I can only respond to harassment from one direction, you're giving marines an edge. people claim that summit is the most balanced map, and it has shortcuts and flanking opportunities up the wazoo. are you saying that summit is heavily alien biased and everybody else is wrong?
incidentally, I love summit. both as marine and alien. alien is easy to navigate and flank, marin I can set up pressure easily. cross is a bit op, but it's OP for both teams. and you can bypass it easily to harass.
The map sure could use some more vents there's no denying that. I just happened to run out of time, more will come along in the next version. Cafe being added back as a tech point is being uhmed and ahed over.
Cafe being so far out from the rest of the tech points and not being one itself does kinda screw with the map a bit, I feel like marines can just go take locker to get 2 tech points quite easily, and get 2 free RTs out of it. So maybe it should be a tech point again, or the bar RT removed I dunno.
incidentally, I love summit. both as marine and alien. alien is easy to navigate and flank, marin I can set up pressure easily. cross is a bit op, but it's OP for both teams. and you can bypass it easily to harass.
one of the things that balance out summit is that mid is equidistant from all tech points. there's a reason some starts are just plain stronger than others. sitting start is just plain better than cave start. right now on your map, if im playing marineit's my game to lose unless we're horribly outclassed. I can just run mid and hit their cysts in stability or maintenance, or I can set up in locker almost before skulks get there. generator is horribly marine biased too. I think the issue is that marines enter the room on the same levelas the hive from stab side, beforecoming from maintenance, they would have to climb a ladder if they wanted the same view.
I said OP vents that bypass huge chunks of the map were bad, not all vents. Summit is a perfect example of how to do them right, the old docking was not. While they weren't all bad there was definitely some questionable ones. Just look at the average length of the vents and how much land they bypassed in the old docking compared to summit. Moreover marines can enter quite a few of the vents themselves in summit.
What long, inaccessible to marine vents do is remove aliens from the map, allow them harass and annoy marines. Now annoyance is the big word, in my opinion badly positioned vents simply reduce the amount of fun pub games have for marines. While I agree that aliens need them counter chokes and flank, they should not be allowed to skip half the map.
I felt a lot of the old docking vents were just put in there to counter problems that the designers should not have created in the first place. like departures hive start and the vent that skips straight into central. Sure it allowed skulks to leak into the rest of the map if marines held east-wing and Stab. monitoring but what about gorges or cysts?! Perhaps there is more creative and interesting solutions that should be considered than just giving aliens a nice cozy little hiding/rest/sniping spots that give them access to huge chunks of the map without risk.
For me the new docking addressed the vents I had the issues with. While It may need some more, I hope they are small and fair for marines.
There's varying opinions on how vents should be used, but in my map you wont see any that skip more than one room.
I have one suggestion for docking and thats to remove the crate leading into stability / strand. I can understand its there to block direct line of sight....but it seems near impossible for it to even to fit into the room to begin with :P
The first thing I thought of the new version. How did that thing even get in there? 8->
---
In my experience, half of games are a terrible Marine stomp of poor Aliens (even without any 20-1 pubstompers).
3v1 TP is often seen.
Departures is as bad as Alien start as it was before.
Maintenance and Stability are as easy to attack for Marines as in the old version, but they are much further apart (and there is no direct vent between them) so they're even harder to defend.
Landing Pad and Cafe are even more dead than before.
Generator Hive is easier to atack from outside the room than before.
I feel that Marines only lose when they are severely outplayed or when they do the old noobish "let's everyone go to East Wing, only!" thing.
I have some hopes when the Cafe TP comes back:
the public meta game on Docking has evolved into Marines taking the long routes on both sides of the map, so they didn't go to Courtyard more or less because that would not have produced good (=fun) games (aka would Aliens have no chance and the game would be over soon, and boring). Except when Marines started in Locker, then they naturally went for Courtyard, and accordingly Locker was the most pro-Marine start.
With Cafe TP removed, there was no more option to play other than "optimal" which means going to Courtyard, keeping Maint and Stab down (which is now even easier), and so games are worse.
The Cafe TP would give players this option back.
I think what needs to be explicitly said: people in pubs don't play for so much for win, they play for fun. They'd rather ignore an option than have a short or bad game. Old Docking metagame is pretty much proof for this. This is why a lot of people don't like the new version: it does not allow for fun games as much as the old version.
I said OP vents that bypass huge chunks of the map were bad, not all vents. Summit is a perfect example of how to do them right, the old docking was not. While they weren't all bad there was definitely some questionable ones. Just look at the average length of the vents and how much land they bypassed in the old docking compared to summit. Moreover marines can enter quite a few of the vents themselves in summit.
What long, inaccessible to marine vents do is remove aliens from the map, allow them harass and annoy marines. Now annoyance is the big word, in my opinion badly positioned vents simply reduce the amount of fun pub games have for marines. While I agree that aliens need them counter chokes and flank, they should not be allowed to skip half the map.
I felt a lot of the old docking vents were just put in there to counter problems that the designers should not have created in the first place. like departures hive start and the vent that skips straight into central. Sure it allowed skulks to leak into the rest of the map if marines held east-wing and Stab. monitoring but what about gorges or cysts?! Perhaps there is more creative and interesting solutions that should be considered than just giving aliens a nice cozy little hiding/rest/sniping spots that give them access to huge chunks of the map without risk.
For me the new docking addressed the vents I had the issues with. While It may need some more, I hope they are small and fair for marines.
There's varying opinions on how vents should be used, but in my map you wont see any that skip more than one room.
I don't care if they're accessible to marines, I care that they're useful. summit, sub to vent, accessible to marines, immensely useful, cross to vent, over the chasm, saves a bit of time and easy to navigate. summit to comp, useful for flank and bypass flight. reactor vents, not faster but much safer. I can't think of a single vent in docking that actually helps me navigate the map more quickly, more safely, or more surprisingly. except the vent from central to bar and locker.
If the tech point makes a reappearance in Cafeteria, has it been considered to close the route through Landing pad (so it is still there as scenery) and adjust central access accordingly? I think that would alleviate the issue of it being a safe and easy expansion from terminal while keeping the changes small and quick to test.
I do agree that they are useful but I also feel that they can easily be overused for reasons I've previously explained. Old docking had too many long vents that were trying to fix issues that should (in my opinion) be fixed through the main routes of the map design! I am complaining about a very specific style of vent placement, not vents in general. It was the one thing that really bothered me about the old version of the map.
There should be a certain amount of risk and skill involved in sneaking past marine positions to flank or harass RT's. The type of vents I am complaining about remove the risk, skill and decrease fun and sense of achievement in being a stealthy bastard alien. More cover and dark spots are a probably a more elegant, interesting and engaging way of balancing problem areas. Forcing aliens down death bottle necks in neutral areas of the map is not good design, just adding OP vents to resolve the issue is not a good solution.
I guess we'll always be at ends as we clearly have different opinions in what makes a good map and counts as a balanced vent placement. But i think we can both agree that the bigger issues of level design should not be fixed just by adding vents.
You should care whether marines can get into vents or not as it pretty much determine how effectively aliens can exploit said vents to harass marines. Perfect example is veil's overlook/skylights vents since they removed the 'exploit' that allowed marines to enter it. in pub games when marines push up to sub sector a skilled skulk player can quite effectively harass both RT's with no way real way for marines to flush it out. How is that kind of game play fun or fair for marines? Breaking the vent up so the skulk would have to expose itself or giving marines access into the vent is a much better solution that still gives aliens the navigation and ability to bypass marine friendly areas.
My point is I much prefer the way docking currently uses vents, and while it isn't perfectly balanced in all areas, I really hope the OP map skipper vents do not make a comeback. More cover, and more small well place vents (in my opinion) are the way forward.
KanehJoin Date: 2012-12-11Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
- departures to stability hallway is way too narrow, easy armory block, easy arc location.
- courtyard is STILL too close to way too much. I think i made the point before, but its the same problem energy flow has. It gives marines too much control over the map
- east wing has no alternate push path. there's no decision to run anywhere new after capping east, you just continue straight to depatures then stability. There's no tactical decision which makes that section of the map stale.
- Same issue with cafeteria, doubling back to courtyard is not really an option, so you just go bar > locker. being locked into running for 30 seconds in one direction is boring/stale.
- Terminal and locker are straight 10 second or less runs to courtyard. This is a huge problem if marines spawn there, because then marines can match alien mobility and section off giant chunks of the map much too easily.
some thoughts:
Generator as the marine spawn would actually not be too bad, as it would fix a lot of the push paths; have aliens spawn cafe or terminal.
It's not like courtyard is crazy out of place, it's more like if marines have a direct hallway to crossroads on summit.
The more i think about flipping the spawns the more I like it. Marines in Generator provides nice push paths and reasonable 2nd TPs in depatures and locker. courtyard becomes an important staging point for pushes into cafe/terminal, but does not hold RTs for marines the way it does now, meaning aliens can delay the pushes and kill res, which has always been the balance - pressure/capping. still need to fix the depatures/stab hallway though.
It's ridiculous that you don't believe something needs to change if a ton of people tell you it sucks.
If you knew user psychology, you'd now exactly how ridiculous your claim is. Users will complain about any change, even if it's for the better, based purely on a flip-of-the-coin emotion. Users will do anything to protect their fragile ego -- e.g. blaming map changes for their performance or spreading hackusations because there's no way another player can be than much better than them. Users rarely send feedback about anything middle of the road, so feedback tends to be Love/Hate. Users classically learn that harsh and unfounded demands a response, while reasonable is often ignored (e.g. the quoted post). I'll leave it as a though exercise to connect all these premises together, thought the implicit message is quite evident.
It's a basic heuristic that feedback is only noise if the user cannot describe anything beyond "it sucks". If you need an explanation why, you didn't read the first paragraph.
I do agree that they are useful but I also feel that they can easily be overused for reasons I've previously explained. Old docking had too many long vents that were trying to fix issues that should (in my opinion) be fixed through the main routes of the map design! I am complaining about a very specific style of vent placement, not vents in general. It was the one thing that really bothered me about the old version of the map.
There should be a certain amount of risk and skill involved in sneaking past marine positions to flank or harass RT's. The type of vents I am complaining about remove the risk, skill and decrease fun and sense of achievement in being a stealthy bastard alien. More cover and dark spots are a probably a more elegant, interesting and engaging way of balancing problem areas. Forcing aliens down death bottle necks in neutral areas of the map is not good design, just adding OP vents to resolve the issue is not a good solution.
I guess we'll always be at ends as we clearly have different opinions in what makes a good map and counts as a balanced vent placement. But i think we can both agree that the bigger issues of level design should not be fixed just by adding vents.
You should care whether marines can get into vents or not as it pretty much determine how effectively aliens can exploit said vents to harass marines. Perfect example is veil's overlook/skylights vents since they removed the 'exploit' that allowed marines to enter it. in pub games when marines push up to sub sector a skilled skulk player can quite effectively harass both RT's with no way real way for marines to flush it out. How is that kind of game play fun or fair for marines? Breaking the vent up so the skulk would have to expose itself or giving marines access into the vent is a much better solution that still gives aliens the navigation and ability to bypass marine friendly areas.
My point is I much prefer the way docking currently uses vents, and while it isn't perfectly balanced in all areas, I really hope the OP map skipper vents do not make a comeback. More cover, and more small well place vents (in my opinion) are the way forward.
there really shouldn't be any additional skill involved in navigating a route over choosing it in the first place. the downside to vents, as they have always been, is that vents restrict top speed. they are also predictable. so you take away routes that are hidden, make navigation more difficult, and leave in a really quick route to mid for marines, and expect aliens to be competitive? on this map? woe betide the alien team that starts in generator. gimped vents, gimped cyst paths, and youccan't even beat marinesto courtyard. I understand if you think aliens win too much, but it's not dockings job to correct the win ratio singlehandedly.
I'm not solely concerned with balance or saying that the map shouldn't have anymore vents. What I am defending is the removal of the old vents you miss. offsetting balance issues by using massive vents just isn't the right answer. Perhaps redesigning the map so the problems are no longer present is a better way. This latest build of docking attempts to fix these issues the right way. Love it or hate it,balanced or not; the new docking is just a much better layout for fun and fairness.
Absolutely hate 4 tech node maps now, works on ns_veil because of how bottlenecked the two entrances into marine spawn are, probably wouldn't change much until 250 rolls out and see how it plays out on BT as it might fix some of the problems I feel aliens have in every round.
Docking has been taken out of Onos Bar 32 man terrible map now...4 tech points <.< jesus this game is getting worst each patch
How is the game getting worst? How exactly does one map change the whole aspect of the entire game...? This game is fun and some of the maps are fun too and some aren't. It's personal preferences on what map you like. Basing a game because of 1 map not to your liking is ridiculous. The whole mechanic of the game is still there.
The more ive played docking, the more i dont like it.
The new courtyard hasnt completely solved the issues of the old courtyard, its still easy to lock down for marines. Its a shame because the room seems designed for aliens to ambush, but then marines will always get there 1st, giving marines map control advantage at the start of the game.
Im not against the new changes, it solved some issues, however i think that the removal of the 5th tech point at cafe has amplified other issues.
Most of the action is now happening at the north part of the map, most pub stomps in the old docking were played like this,secure locker/terminal for marine 2nd expansion and ignore cafeteria. This puts alot of pressure on aliens and now every single game is played like this because we no longer have cafe tech point.
To improve gameplay we need locker and terminal to be further away from courtyard.
Bringing back cafe tech point would bring back some game variety, perhaps remove landing pad entrance ? i dunno, would need some work
As for east wing, how about adding a vent from east wing to landing pad ?
and heres veil so you can compare the new 4tp docking to the other 4tp map
I like the map fine. I even think its nice to have a busy fight part of the map (north) and a sneaky pretty empty 1v1 fights for rt kills part of the map (south). Only 'bad' thing is the new corridors all look alike and some corners / turns dont seem to feel logical (strange turns to get somewhere). My 2 cents.
Its a good sign some people getting all over the top emotional for map changes: they really care.
Currently the trick to new docking is to cut straight across the middle. Either marines go directly to gen, or Aliens go from departures to locker (I haven't seen the reverse work yet). Either way you pretty much automatically control the third tech point in the middle if you are able to control the opposing points.
I've only played a half dozen games on new docking so far, but every single one has been a complete stomp for one side or the other, either doing what I just suggested or trying and failing.
This is basically a symptom of the 4 tech map. If you can control the points on either side of a third tech, you automatically own that third tech in most games. In a 5 tech map, doing this only nets you 3 out of 5 points, leaving the 4th to the other team, who typically take the exterior RTs in trade. Veil is uniquely a branching design rather than a loop, which is why the bordering techs don't really apply. Closest thing is to take cargo as marines therefor cutting off sub from pipe, but that is exceptionally difficult to do.
While I personally much prefer the latest four tech-point version of docking. I do also prefer 5 tech point style games, they feel more dynamic and interesting and seem to generate more epic feeling Pub games (I have no real understanding on the implications for competitive matches). There is a significant difference in the kind of games both these maps generate and I think this is where a most of the rage comes from.
In its current state I am more than happy with docking. that said If you were to reintroduce the 5th (cafe) tech point I think it would need more extensive change than just placing the entity back in the slot.
Forgive me if i come across like an 'ideas guy' here. But I mocked up one solution that might might be more balanced and interesting if you reintroduce the tech point.
Personally, I was always torn with how the south of the map (landing pad, terminal and cafe) played. while I always enjoyed playing in these areas something felt wrong with how Cafe and terminal sat as tech-points. Its hard to say why exactly. Maybe the proximity and all the unused space?! I think this may also help fix the marine middle rush 'issue'- that I would argue is fundamental to docking's game style.
I realize this would be a huge amount of work and I am not even sure if I want it to return to a 5 TP map. Is just returning the TP enough? Is there any more elegant solutions or suggestions?
After playing the map the next 20-30 rounds I can say:
I would still prefer the old design (for reasons already told),
but I actually can "life" with the changes...
But I still have two suggestions:
1) Please make the new designed areas look more like the old docking.
The new designed areas are looking like a different map.
(missing this "docking-blue" style / colors)
2) I don't know if this is a Bug but in the new designed areas I have MASSIVE FPS drops...
Such huge FPS drops I never had on old docking or any other NS2 Maps so far...
The Frame rate drops from ~70 FPS to 15-20 FPS in the moment where I step into new Stability or Strand? ...
Anyone similar problems?
Comments
I cannot exactly tell you why I dislike it, so please don't stone me if I only try to explain:
a) 4 point tech maps are not necessarily bad. On Veil, with teams that are not overly unbalanced (and not having a 20:1 player on one side...), it is almost always the case that you get 2 vs 2 tech points. But on the new Docking, it is more often than not the case that you get 3:1 tech points for marines. I know this is only anecdotal evidence, but that's the only evidence I have, and ruins the map for me. Cafe tech point cost the marines time and resources; they can now ignore that and just have the free rt there.
b) Courtyard seems much more central to me than before. Marines can now so easily intercept not only locker expansion, but also departures expansion, which leads to 3:1 TP or no alien RT or both.
c) The whole Cafe+Landing location is now even more dead than before - and can't be used by aliens as an interception point. We had some impossibly fun ninja hive drops there in the versions where you could put a shade in central access, and even when that location was altered we could do sneaky hive drops without a shade, which saved games and turned them around. This is now not possible anymore.
d) The TP situation might be alleviated by 250. I only read the changes and haven't played BT, so please correct me if I'm wrong; but the changes seem to me to speed up the game quite heavily. Also, focus seems to be taken off from the TPs, which may make this 4-TP approach more viable. Nonetheless, b) still stands, and obviously I'd have to play the BT/250 changes first to see how this pans out, however:
This release was too early. Had this been released with 250, I'd guess there had not been nearly as much hate for the changes as is now. Reading the proposed changes I feel the map is much more viable (in its current version) using 250 rules.
Also, to add some personal controversity: I didn't think docking had many problems at all. Sure, stab mon sniping was bad, but I have only seen ARCs being used there to full effect in 1 out of >100 games. I don't know, but maybe we Europeans play this game differently, with less use of strategic aspects or such? I probably just got lucky (as an alien).
Oh, and remember: even anecdotal evidence can stack up. Many of the people I play with don't like the new docking at all, and aliens are getting stomped left and right.
This paragraph is only valid if the group of maptesters is small (I don't know about that): If so (which would be perfectly fine, there is no real possible way around that), however the composition of the groups used to playtest, I assume they cannot capture the variety of characters/skillsets often seen on pubs. Because of this, the real maptest is when the map hits the fan (scnr).
To add to some of the posts above, I have to concur that the map seems to have lost some originality. But this last point may well be, as some noted, due to the novelty of the changed parts. Anyway, that's how I feel about it at the moment.
Also on the non-informativeness of some of the critic-posts: just the notion they exist should tell you that there are flaws. Where that flaws lie could tell you a close examination of the parts that changed since the last iteration. It is also a bit unfair to just point the flak on the negative non-informative posts, while all the jubilant posts with no detailed positive critic pass right through.
This was too long, I aplogize (also for the speculation where I don't have complete information). Good night everyone.
Nothing good has been removed from the map!
It is now more streamlined, more balanced and the new rooms are just more interesting and fun to fight in.
I guess that only 40% of the map has actually been changed, and most of the changes consist of moving rooms around.
My question is; what is it exactly you miss from the previous build?
All the negative space and redundant routes?
The OP vents that allowed skulks to bypass very large sections of the map?
The dirty locker/central arc position?
The ease at which marines could rush stability and lock down alien expansion?.....
I understand people are frustrated that they'll have to 'relearn' a map after dedicating many hours to doing so, but I can guarantee once you take the time revise your tactics you'll agree that the changes are for the best.
Moreover, the classic docking mod is on the workshop, If the new docking really is that bad then why aren't any servers (that I've seen) using this mod?
or, I can't see shit... "what's wrong with your eyes?" if I were a doctor, you'd be out a c note... not liking a map is a pretty big symptom. more detailed questions will lead to more detailed responses. I don't like the flow of games on docking. I don't like how central plays, I don't like how skulks play on the map, I don't like how strong the marine team is on docking. I don't know what else to say but that the map changes are really not to my liking. but all that I can really say for sure is that the previous docking was less objectionable to me than the current form.
I actually do miss the vents. they are called shortcuts for a reason. marines have phases, aliens have better mobility and vent system. I don't like that as a skulk I get no advantage in mobility and it's more difficult to avoid confrontation if I have to.
If you like the changes but give no information, cool, guess the changes were for the best.
If you dislike the changes but give no information, there's not much that can be done to fix that?
Guess the worst you could say from that result is the mappers really want to make a map everyone loves?
You, btw, gave amazing feedback and get an awesome from me. :-bd
These issues have now been fixed.
what you call unfairly flanking, I call an intentional and necessary mechanic of the design of the game. how do I close the distance properly if I can only attack from one direction and marines can all cover it? one of the things people bring up to counter the argument of a marine deathball being OP, is that you don't have to engage them head on, or that you can engage them from multiple angles and avenues. if you make a map that forces aliens to navigate through chokes to attack res, you're not letting me harass properly, if you make it so that I can only respond to harassment from one direction, you're giving marines an edge. people claim that summit is the most balanced map, and it has shortcuts and flanking opportunities up the wazoo. are you saying that summit is heavily alien biased and everybody else is wrong?
one of the things that balance out summit is that mid is equidistant from all tech points. there's a reason some starts are just plain stronger than others. sitting start is just plain better than cave start. right now on your map, if im playing marineit's my game to lose unless we're horribly outclassed. I can just run mid and hit their cysts in stability or maintenance, or I can set up in locker almost before skulks get there. generator is horribly marine biased too. I think the issue is that marines enter the room on the same levelas the hive from stab side, beforecoming from maintenance, they would have to climb a ladder if they wanted the same view.
What long, inaccessible to marine vents do is remove aliens from the map, allow them harass and annoy marines. Now annoyance is the big word, in my opinion badly positioned vents simply reduce the amount of fun pub games have for marines. While I agree that aliens need them counter chokes and flank, they should not be allowed to skip half the map.
I felt a lot of the old docking vents were just put in there to counter problems that the designers should not have created in the first place. like departures hive start and the vent that skips straight into central. Sure it allowed skulks to leak into the rest of the map if marines held east-wing and Stab. monitoring but what about gorges or cysts?! Perhaps there is more creative and interesting solutions that should be considered than just giving aliens a nice cozy little hiding/rest/sniping spots that give them access to huge chunks of the map without risk.
For me the new docking addressed the vents I had the issues with. While It may need some more, I hope they are small and fair for marines.
There's varying opinions on how vents should be used, but in my map you wont see any that skip more than one room.
---
In my experience, half of games are a terrible Marine stomp of poor Aliens (even without any 20-1 pubstompers).
3v1 TP is often seen.
Departures is as bad as Alien start as it was before.
Maintenance and Stability are as easy to attack for Marines as in the old version, but they are much further apart (and there is no direct vent between them) so they're even harder to defend.
Landing Pad and Cafe are even more dead than before.
Generator Hive is easier to atack from outside the room than before.
I feel that Marines only lose when they are severely outplayed or when they do the old noobish "let's everyone go to East Wing, only!" thing.
I have some hopes when the Cafe TP comes back:
the public meta game on Docking has evolved into Marines taking the long routes on both sides of the map, so they didn't go to Courtyard more or less because that would not have produced good (=fun) games (aka would Aliens have no chance and the game would be over soon, and boring). Except when Marines started in Locker, then they naturally went for Courtyard, and accordingly Locker was the most pro-Marine start.
With Cafe TP removed, there was no more option to play other than "optimal" which means going to Courtyard, keeping Maint and Stab down (which is now even easier), and so games are worse.
The Cafe TP would give players this option back.
I think what needs to be explicitly said: people in pubs don't play for so much for win, they play for fun. They'd rather ignore an option than have a short or bad game. Old Docking metagame is pretty much proof for this. This is why a lot of people don't like the new version: it does not allow for fun games as much as the old version.
I don't care if they're accessible to marines, I care that they're useful. summit, sub to vent, accessible to marines, immensely useful, cross to vent, over the chasm, saves a bit of time and easy to navigate. summit to comp, useful for flank and bypass flight. reactor vents, not faster but much safer. I can't think of a single vent in docking that actually helps me navigate the map more quickly, more safely, or more surprisingly. except the vent from central to bar and locker.
There should be a certain amount of risk and skill involved in sneaking past marine positions to flank or harass RT's. The type of vents I am complaining about remove the risk, skill and decrease fun and sense of achievement in being a stealthy bastard alien. More cover and dark spots are a probably a more elegant, interesting and engaging way of balancing problem areas. Forcing aliens down death bottle necks in neutral areas of the map is not good design, just adding OP vents to resolve the issue is not a good solution.
I guess we'll always be at ends as we clearly have different opinions in what makes a good map and counts as a balanced vent placement. But i think we can both agree that the bigger issues of level design should not be fixed just by adding vents.
You should care whether marines can get into vents or not as it pretty much determine how effectively aliens can exploit said vents to harass marines. Perfect example is veil's overlook/skylights vents since they removed the 'exploit' that allowed marines to enter it. in pub games when marines push up to sub sector a skilled skulk player can quite effectively harass both RT's with no way real way for marines to flush it out. How is that kind of game play fun or fair for marines? Breaking the vent up so the skulk would have to expose itself or giving marines access into the vent is a much better solution that still gives aliens the navigation and ability to bypass marine friendly areas.
My point is I much prefer the way docking currently uses vents, and while it isn't perfectly balanced in all areas, I really hope the OP map skipper vents do not make a comeback. More cover, and more small well place vents (in my opinion) are the way forward.
- courtyard is STILL too close to way too much. I think i made the point before, but its the same problem energy flow has. It gives marines too much control over the map
- east wing has no alternate push path. there's no decision to run anywhere new after capping east, you just continue straight to depatures then stability. There's no tactical decision which makes that section of the map stale.
- Same issue with cafeteria, doubling back to courtyard is not really an option, so you just go bar > locker. being locked into running for 30 seconds in one direction is boring/stale.
- Terminal and locker are straight 10 second or less runs to courtyard. This is a huge problem if marines spawn there, because then marines can match alien mobility and section off giant chunks of the map much too easily.
some thoughts:
Generator as the marine spawn would actually not be too bad, as it would fix a lot of the push paths; have aliens spawn cafe or terminal.
It's not like courtyard is crazy out of place, it's more like if marines have a direct hallway to crossroads on summit.
The more i think about flipping the spawns the more I like it. Marines in Generator provides nice push paths and reasonable 2nd TPs in depatures and locker. courtyard becomes an important staging point for pushes into cafe/terminal, but does not hold RTs for marines the way it does now, meaning aliens can delay the pushes and kill res, which has always been the balance - pressure/capping. still need to fix the depatures/stab hallway though.
If you knew user psychology, you'd now exactly how ridiculous your claim is. Users will complain about any change, even if it's for the better, based purely on a flip-of-the-coin emotion. Users will do anything to protect their fragile ego -- e.g. blaming map changes for their performance or spreading hackusations because there's no way another player can be than much better than them. Users rarely send feedback about anything middle of the road, so feedback tends to be Love/Hate. Users classically learn that harsh and unfounded demands a response, while reasonable is often ignored (e.g. the quoted post). I'll leave it as a though exercise to connect all these premises together, thought the implicit message is quite evident.
It's a basic heuristic that feedback is only noise if the user cannot describe anything beyond "it sucks". If you need an explanation why, you didn't read the first paragraph.
How is the game getting worst? How exactly does one map change the whole aspect of the entire game...? This game is fun and some of the maps are fun too and some aren't. It's personal preferences on what map you like. Basing a game because of 1 map not to your liking is ridiculous. The whole mechanic of the game is still there.
The new courtyard hasnt completely solved the issues of the old courtyard, its still easy to lock down for marines. Its a shame because the room seems designed for aliens to ambush, but then marines will always get there 1st, giving marines map control advantage at the start of the game.
Im not against the new changes, it solved some issues, however i think that the removal of the 5th tech point at cafe has amplified other issues.
Most of the action is now happening at the north part of the map, most pub stomps in the old docking were played like this,secure locker/terminal for marine 2nd expansion and ignore cafeteria. This puts alot of pressure on aliens and now every single game is played like this because we no longer have cafe tech point.
To improve gameplay we need locker and terminal to be further away from courtyard.
Bringing back cafe tech point would bring back some game variety, perhaps remove landing pad entrance ? i dunno, would need some work
As for east wing, how about adding a vent from east wing to landing pad ?
and heres veil so you can compare the new 4tp docking to the other 4tp map
Its a good sign some people getting all over the top emotional for map changes: they really care.
I've only played a half dozen games on new docking so far, but every single one has been a complete stomp for one side or the other, either doing what I just suggested or trying and failing.
This is basically a symptom of the 4 tech map. If you can control the points on either side of a third tech, you automatically own that third tech in most games. In a 5 tech map, doing this only nets you 3 out of 5 points, leaving the 4th to the other team, who typically take the exterior RTs in trade. Veil is uniquely a branching design rather than a loop, which is why the bordering techs don't really apply. Closest thing is to take cargo as marines therefor cutting off sub from pipe, but that is exceptionally difficult to do.
In its current state I am more than happy with docking. that said If you were to reintroduce the 5th (cafe) tech point I think it would need more extensive change than just placing the entity back in the slot.
Forgive me if i come across like an 'ideas guy' here. But I mocked up one solution that might might be more balanced and interesting if you reintroduce the tech point.
Personally, I was always torn with how the south of the map (landing pad, terminal and cafe) played. while I always enjoyed playing in these areas something felt wrong with how Cafe and terminal sat as tech-points. Its hard to say why exactly. Maybe the proximity and all the unused space?! I think this may also help fix the marine middle rush 'issue'- that I would argue is fundamental to docking's game style.
I realize this would be a huge amount of work and I am not even sure if I want it to return to a 5 TP map. Is just returning the TP enough? Is there any more elegant solutions or suggestions?
I would still prefer the old design (for reasons already told),
but I actually can "life" with the changes...
But I still have two suggestions:
1) Please make the new designed areas look more like the old docking.
The new designed areas are looking like a different map.
(missing this "docking-blue" style / colors)
2) I don't know if this is a Bug but in the new designed areas I have MASSIVE FPS drops...
Such huge FPS drops I never had on old docking or any other NS2 Maps so far...
The Frame rate drops from ~70 FPS to 15-20 FPS in the moment where I step into new Stability or Strand? ...
Anyone similar problems?