Who was the 'genius' behind Concede?!

PoNeHPoNeH Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58801Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
Seriously. Why would you assist players in quitting. I don't think I have EVER truly finished a game since the Concede option was implemented. I also lost count of how many times Aliens quit with 2 hives, just because, for the last 3 minutes, things haven't been going their way. All it takes is 1-2 proficient players to join a losing team to change things around. Or, I don't know, a base-rush to work?

Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
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Comments

  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    It isn't fun when the marine team has been pushed back to one base and is clearly going to lose but then turtles for 10 minutes by spamming grenades and mines. At these times I am quite thankful that the game has a concede feature. No reason to commit all that time to a game you already know you've lost. Not to mention marines will always have a built-in concede option by just recycling all of their IPs.

    Also, what is it with these forums? It seems like people love to complain about anything and everything in this game.
  • KnightLautrecKnightLautrec Join Date: 2013-03-12 Member: 183913Members
    It is a pretty good idea to limit concede for teams that have more than one tech point, if own more than 1, no vote can happen.
  • TyrsisTyrsis Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
    edited March 2013
    Fighting until the end is noble and "fun" the first 10 times you do. The next 40 times you do it, it becomes annoying. After that it is just an absolute waste of time.

    If you don't realize the value of the concede, you will after you've fought in your 100th hopeless game.
  • TinkerTinker Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14395Members
    MMZ_Torak wrote: »
    I do however agree that the concede option needs tweaking to disallow conceding unless there is a serious resource disadvantage and the team only has a single tech point. I do not deny that too many people concede too early, but the RTS portion of this game practically screams for a concede option.

    I actually agree with this. We were on 1 hive and 4 nodes as aliens and didn't instantly take a second hive. This guys starts calling for concede, some people do and others f4 while I'm saying over the mic "This is an even match hold out while we have nodes and push tech points." Thankfully the concede vote failed, 3 min later we started hive 2, 10 minutes later we won.

    People should not be calling a game when you have 3+ nodes. That's enough to crawl up in tech and push out but people feel if it's not a roflstomp it's gonna be a loss. One suggestion I head was that after 5 minutes the margin for a concede vote is determined by percentage of res nodes controlled, minimum 40% or something like that. Just something in place that prevents a few people on the team deciding the game is lost because a single harvester goes down.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    yeah starcraft would be much more fun and exciting if you had to destroy every last building to win EVERY GAME... oh wait...

    if you don't want the RTS elements, then maybe try combat mod or something? once each round reaches a certain point it becomes IMPOSSIBLE, and then everyone would benefit from a new round.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    tarquinbb wrote: »
    yeah starcraft would be much more fun and exciting if you had to destroy every last building to win EVERY GAME... oh wait...

    if you don't want the RTS elements, then maybe try combat mod or something? once each round reaches a certain point it becomes IMPOSSIBLE, and then everyone would benefit from a new round.

    Company of Heroes is though, but there you have arty, bombs deforming terrain and structures that actually take damage and go boom. Then again I only play against CPU because people tend to quit if the lose :P
  • bongofishbongofish Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19893Members
    edited March 2013
    Conceding should give the other team a minute or so to hunt you down and slaughter you. I know there is a "surrender" mod that works this way. I like it since it gives the winning team the joy of finishing off their opponents.
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    Recent threads about concede, in chronological order:

    Your Opinion On Concede
    Allow Server Owners To Disable Vote Concede
    Potential Concede Tweaks
    How To Make Concede Better

    Also, this thread about base recycling touches on most of the same concepts that are involved in debates about concede, and in fact concede does come up a few times in the thread:

    Marine Base Recycling

    Let me know if you think of anything new to say about concede that hasn't already been discussed to death in the previous threads.
  • KamamuraKamamura Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183736Members, Reinforced - Gold
    Chess has also the option to concede. A game has sense only as long as both sides have a chance to win. If this is no longer true, why waste time and not have another game instead?
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    MMZ_Torak wrote: »
    Blame the players that camp outside the last tech point of the other team, not finishing the game, but researching every bit of tech (even the things they won't use) and waiting to get every player on their team top tech before they will finish the game. Nobody wants to be someone's punching bag.

    If you want to take something out of this thread, take this ^

    The next time comm tells you to get that RT when aliens are stuck in 1 hive, tell your team to ignore that and just finish them.

    Not only does it end the game faster, it also gives the aliens a chance if they pull something off.
  • PoNeHPoNeH Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58801Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    edited March 2013
    I understand the reasoning behind concede, but I also believe that it eliminates great comebacks that made the most memorable NS games.

    Honestly, if Marines are turtling in their base, it really doesn't take that long to save up for higher lifeforms and wipe them out (especially when you have the entire map harvesting for you). Similarly, if there is only one hive remaining, it takes no more than a couple of minutes before Marines can take it out.

    Concede has just given the term "Rage Quitting" a whole different meaning.

    If anything, they really need to revamp how Concede works.
  • casan0vaxcasan0vax Cloverfield, USA Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166663Members, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I've never cast a vote to concede before.

    I also happen to love turtling as a marine >_>
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    If I'm marine commander, I never concede, I always IP recycle. Concede should mimic this for both teams.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I've said it before and I'll say it again - concede is not the problem, concede is a SYMPTOM. The real problem is that the game has so little forgiveness. All it takes is one action (some kind of attack) and the game can be practically decided. Once the game has been decided, why play it out to a known conclusion? Even if you are on the side that you know will win, is it really that fun playing a game when the other team has no hope to beat you?

    If you want to stop concede then you need to make comebacks viable. Losing control of a techpoint (with hive or command chair) shouldn't make people say "gg". Yet they often do since they know the chance of a comeback is slim to none. *THAT* is why people concede.

    People aren't conceding for the hell of it. People aren't conceding because they suddenly got bored. People are conceding because they are in a no-win situation. I don't know about you, but standing around to be someone's target dummy is not my idea of fun.

    To fix this, one of two things needs to happen.

    -The game could be changed so that there is more forgiveness. This could be by making it harder to take a hive/command chair, but the result ends the game immediately. Or it could be by making it easier to take a hive/command chair, which would have more turnovers and a better chance for a team to make a comeback.

    -Alternately, there could be an alternate gameplay mechanism that will end the game quickly once people have decided to concede. Perhaps some kind of 'self-destruct' mechanism that would trigger a countdown timer and a means to end the game within a short (10 minutes or less) period of time.
  • Apreche2Apreche2 Join Date: 2012-08-06 Member: 154849Members
    Let me tell you why concede is good.

    First of all, before there was concede there was F4. Concede is just a codification of the already existing rage quit. Even if you take away F4, people can still just disconnect from the server. There is no way to remove it from the game. Better to codify it and let players stay in the server.

    But that's a reason why concede is inevitable, not why it is good. I promised to tell why it is good, and I will do so now.

    You ever play Monopoly? Notice how it is an insanely long game that is incredibly boring? There's a point at which during the game of Monopoly where you already know who is going to win. There is almost 0% chance that any other player will win. Despite this, according to the rules, the game is not over until every player but one is bankrupt. Why sit there for hours on end boring yourselves to death to officially determine what you already know? Just end it immediately.

    There are a lot of games that have this problem. In Advance Wars a losing player can build a flood of 'mech units to force the winning player into a quagmire. They have rightfully won, but will be forced to quit or spend hours killing 'mech units to have the game declare them the victor.

    There are other games that do not have this problem at all. Tennis is the perfect example. In Tennis, even when it is match point, both players have a chance. One has a much greater chance, but it's not completely locked in. You play for every single point in tennis. No good tennis player gives up early, or has any reason to. As soon as one of the players has a 0% chance to win the match, it is over and a winner is declared. It is perfect and beautiful.

    NS and NS2 have the Monopoly problem to a lesser degree. There is a point at which one of the teams has nearly no chance of winning. Everyone knows which team has won. Why sit there for a very long time playing a boring game to find out what you already know? Allowing for concession is a halfway decent way of allowing the match to end so you can start a new one that is fun and competitive.

    There are, however, other solutions to this problem. They all involve changing the victory conditions of NS. Right now the victory condition is to either kill all IPs and marines, kill all chairs, or kill all hives. What if another possible condition were created? Here are some suggestions.

    If team A has only one tech point, and team B has captured all resource nodes on the map, minus one, then team B wins.

    Whenever a team destroys a tech point or resource point belonging to the other team, that translates into victory points. When the gap in victory points between the two teams is greater than some number or ratio, the team with the greater number of victory points wins. You could also award victory points for successfully researching technologies/evolutions.

    Try to come up with your own victory conditions. The ideal victory condition will result in every game being fun right until the end. At no time during the game should a player feel like they have no chance to win, such that they would want to quit. Likewise, the game should not end while players do feel they have a chance to make a comeback. It should end like Tennis, at the exact right moment. Without such a condition that determines when the game should end, concede leaves it in the players hands.

    And lastly, if you don't like concede, create your own no-concede server. See how that goes.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    PoNeH wrote: »
    I understand the reasoning behind concede, but I also believe that it eliminates great comebacks that made the most memorable NS games.

    Honestly, if Marines are turtling in their base, it really doesn't take that long to save up for higher lifeforms and wipe them out (especially when you have the entire map harvesting for you). Similarly, if there is only one hive remaining, it takes no more than a couple of minutes before Marines can take it out.

    Concede has just given the term "Rage Quitting" a whole different meaning.

    If anything, they really need to revamp how Concede works.

    i've sometimes had 8:1 kdr on the losing side, the rest of my team clueless with 1:5-10 etc.

    sorry, but if there's no concede i just hide in a corner afk until the game is over.

    reason? i want the game to end quicker, so we can start a new game and possibly have some fun.
  • archwaykittenarchwaykitten Join Date: 2013-01-18 Member: 180431Members
    Tennis is a less strategically interesting game than NS2, though. Every point played in Tennis is the exact same as any other point, mechanically. Doing well early has no effect on how the game is played outside of the score itself.

    That's simply not how strategy games work. Strategy games allow for many different states of play, and making consistently good decisions based on those game states is the core of the game. Doing well early provides an advantage beyond simply having a better score. If capturing the majority of resource nodes didn't put you at an extreme advantage, why would anybody ever bother taking them? Epic comebacks should be possible of course, but they should also be hard earned and rare. That's what makes them epic, after all.

    A large part of the commander's job is keeping the team's morale up when things aren't going well. If you outline a solid plan for a comeback (based on the game state you're currently fighting from) most teams will stick with the game.

    The one thing I'd change about the "concede" button is that I'd label it "gg" instead.
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Members
    Conceding is a good thing. Do we really need one of these threads each week?
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Conceding is good manners if it is known the game is already over.

    My personal metric is, "if we have been 'defending' for the last 8 minutes and no one is listening to the commander or the commander is not making any plans, the game is lost. Even with 2 CC/Hives still up."
  • uRBANuRBAN Join Date: 2003-05-04 Member: 16065Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Conceding is a great option to help keep heavily populated servers from becoming ghost servers. When people make a certain server their "home" and become a regular you start to assimilate into the server population. That can lead to people stacking teams game after game just so they can play with people they "know" or have played with often. When a pub enters that server community for the first time it can suck... You get stuck on the team people aren't stacking and just end up being a punching bag for a while. With this option now present I've seen far less team stacking on my regular servers. Mostly because they know the other team will just concede 3 minutes in and thats no fun! I see less people leaving servers when a game isnt in their favor as well now. Altogether Id have to say I support the Concede option. I played NS1 forever... I remember those games that went on for hours with the losing team making a come back. Yes... some of the best memories ever... But its not like that in NS2. Before concede you could expect at least half the losing team to just leave the server... which is stupid and took quite a bit from the experience of NS2. Now i find myself finishing games with like 90% of the players that started it... Thanks to concede. Im willing to forfeit the rare games where amazing comebacks happened... Now I dont have to sit through stale matches where one team has the complete advantage and the losing team goes through about 30 different players before it finally ends
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    "if we have been 'defending' for the last 8 minutes and no one is listening to the commander or the commander is not making any plans, the game is lost. Even with 2 CC/Hives still up."

    I often find the commander not making any plans. Drives me nuts. I've started to play a stronger role as a field leader in those cases, but it's hard and I'm not very good at it yet.

    I've never been in a game where no one was listening to the commander.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    You can not force people to get slaughtered. Also, thanks to auto team balance, you can no longer f4 to finish the game (i would like to see auto team balance disapear), so concede is necessary.
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6146Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    1 Hive/tech point against the rest of the map is my concede metric. Unless we have some killer lifeforms/equipment on the team. If you've got 2 hives/tech points there's always hope. In practice I find that a concede with 2 tech points or hives is quite rare.

    The general acceptance of the concede mechanic (along with the mostly positive attitude of people I play with in NS2) give me a high opinion of the community. There are games with snowballing mechanics like DOTA where the majority of the fanbase yells and screams when you suggest taking away all the time they would get to spend beating up a helpless opponent.
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