Early game Aliens almost useless
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Join Date: 2012-10-06 Member: 161663Members
Join Date: 2012-10-06 Member: 161663Members
With the drop of patch 240, many things happened, many good, many terrible. The good parts being gorge Tunnels, a method aliens finally had of moving across a map quickly, as well as the rail gun EXO, which I think is perfectly balanced right off the start, fast, but only has one railgun and the gun is slow firing and doesn't do it's true damage unless warmed up.
However, there is still much that needs to be either reworked, or simply undone from these patches.
The primary thing, is the nerfing of the Skulks movement. Prior to the patch, yeah, they were the bane of a Marine early on, unless the Marines were going out in groups, and were paying attention and had a functioning frontal lobe. Now, as a skulk, you move slower than a Marine sprinting, and sometimes have trouble keeping up with just a running Marine. It makes the early game exceptionally one sided. Even with celerity it still feels like the Skulks being pulled back like he has a drag chute behind him. A single Skulk can no longer sneak up on a group of two Marines and come out on top, it's simply impossible, even a single Marine can prove troublesome.
The Lerks spike attack was admittedly, a little aggravating, he could hide up high in a room, shooting at you and you would never know unless the commander scanned, or you happened to see the firing effect from his head. The response should have been a simple tracer, not too big, but you could notice it if you were paying attention. What we got is a screen blurring hose of these tracers that effectively negates the usefulness of the attack, while I will say it wasn't a bad idea to add and effect, it was taken a step too far. Perhaps a less graphically noisy effect would be better, you'd actually have to pay attention and see where it was coming from, maybe the tracer only appears when it's just leaving the Lerk so you look for the effect, or a more noticeable effect at the Lerks location instead of the massive tracers would have been better.
The Gorge was given the amazing tunnels, which I think for researching wise could use to be dropped to just 25 or so. I love the tunnels, they do what they need to and offer just what the Alien team needed at a reasonable cost. However, the babblers, well, they are next to useless. There is simply no other way to say it, they do little to no damage, they are not even the slightest threat to a Marine unless he is AFK, and they are still dreadfully slow and weak. Yes it only costs a total of 3 PRes to get all 9, but still, that's a small chunk that can add up if you pump them out consistently, and when they aren't even a nuisance to the enemy, I just don't feel any desire to use them. Bile Bomb also seems to have been the victim of a Nerf Bat attack. I tested it out before and prior to patch 240, a Gorge could sit before a Power Node, and fire a total of 14 bile Bombs onto it and kill it. Now, it takes about 19 or so. Sure, it's a power node and all, but when you start looking at what that does to a Marine or other building, it seems almost pointless to use it at times, even if you toss one into a group of Marines your teammates are attacking it has almost no effect at times. I've watched as my screen had 0's flash on an enemy Marine several times before it went up any. It's aggravating, I know it only destroys their armor, and I'm fine with that, but when it doesn't even do that, and I'm just lobbing energy at an opponent, it's a little frustrating to say the least. The Hydras have taken the worst beating to date though it feels. When the game first came out, Hydras were an annoyance to Marines, sometimes I'd avoid a room entirely if it had them, but now, they are laughable. They do pitiful damage, do little to discourage anyone from entering a room, go down faster than a Skulk without Carapace it seems, and I have attacked so many Hydras with my LMG, at angles where I could clearly see the full thing but it would not attack me. Every patch they get a little worse and every patch I look at the PRes I spend on them and think I could have spent them better. Marines can locate and destroy a Hydra before it does even any damage to them, and the addition of those tracers on their spikes has made them even simpler to locate and destroy.
The EXO's got a bit of a speed bonus depending on what weapons the EXO was equipped with, which is fine, honestly it was perfect, always made me wonder a little why a single gun EXO was the same speed as a Dual-Gun. And I will say the increase of it's range with the fist was, needed, though now with the Skulks speed nerf, it's just laughable in most situations seeing a skulk rushing an EXO. Unless you catch one alone, or just not paying attention, the EXO will slaughter the Skulk before most significant damage is done. Going alone and being demolished by a single Skulk was punishment for going alone, now it's not even much of a threat anymore.
All of these things essentially make it so that the Alien team is terribly outmatched early game. While the Aliens move at a sluggish pace, attempting to locate the Marines, the Marines are already expanding, taking control of the map before the Aliens even know where the Marines are coming from. Every game I've played with the exception of one since 240 has come out, the Aliens are simply destroyed in early game, the skulk is rendered almost useless and no where near as fun as it used to be to play, leaving the Aliens to just sit and wait until they can afford higher tier lifeforms to even have a chance, but by then, the Marines have gotten their weapons and armor upgrade and the mid and late games quickly turn into a game of 'How Long Can the Aliens Hold Out!'
I really, really, really enjoy this game, but as every patch roles out, the few that have helped the Aliens, have been drowned by the ones that just neuter them. The devs said that they wanted people to be able to play and help their teams even with the baseline life form or equipment. Well, for the Marines this is true, but no longer so for the Aliens. I loved games where it was late game and the map had been cut in half and each team was gearing up for a push or a defense, while I was running around as a skulk, chomping Marines, or nibbling a node, or nomming an armory, or even masticate on an observatory, and possibly even giving an EXO a friendly gobble. Now though, a skulk is at best, little better than canon fodder.
However, there is still much that needs to be either reworked, or simply undone from these patches.
The primary thing, is the nerfing of the Skulks movement. Prior to the patch, yeah, they were the bane of a Marine early on, unless the Marines were going out in groups, and were paying attention and had a functioning frontal lobe. Now, as a skulk, you move slower than a Marine sprinting, and sometimes have trouble keeping up with just a running Marine. It makes the early game exceptionally one sided. Even with celerity it still feels like the Skulks being pulled back like he has a drag chute behind him. A single Skulk can no longer sneak up on a group of two Marines and come out on top, it's simply impossible, even a single Marine can prove troublesome.
The Lerks spike attack was admittedly, a little aggravating, he could hide up high in a room, shooting at you and you would never know unless the commander scanned, or you happened to see the firing effect from his head. The response should have been a simple tracer, not too big, but you could notice it if you were paying attention. What we got is a screen blurring hose of these tracers that effectively negates the usefulness of the attack, while I will say it wasn't a bad idea to add and effect, it was taken a step too far. Perhaps a less graphically noisy effect would be better, you'd actually have to pay attention and see where it was coming from, maybe the tracer only appears when it's just leaving the Lerk so you look for the effect, or a more noticeable effect at the Lerks location instead of the massive tracers would have been better.
The Gorge was given the amazing tunnels, which I think for researching wise could use to be dropped to just 25 or so. I love the tunnels, they do what they need to and offer just what the Alien team needed at a reasonable cost. However, the babblers, well, they are next to useless. There is simply no other way to say it, they do little to no damage, they are not even the slightest threat to a Marine unless he is AFK, and they are still dreadfully slow and weak. Yes it only costs a total of 3 PRes to get all 9, but still, that's a small chunk that can add up if you pump them out consistently, and when they aren't even a nuisance to the enemy, I just don't feel any desire to use them. Bile Bomb also seems to have been the victim of a Nerf Bat attack. I tested it out before and prior to patch 240, a Gorge could sit before a Power Node, and fire a total of 14 bile Bombs onto it and kill it. Now, it takes about 19 or so. Sure, it's a power node and all, but when you start looking at what that does to a Marine or other building, it seems almost pointless to use it at times, even if you toss one into a group of Marines your teammates are attacking it has almost no effect at times. I've watched as my screen had 0's flash on an enemy Marine several times before it went up any. It's aggravating, I know it only destroys their armor, and I'm fine with that, but when it doesn't even do that, and I'm just lobbing energy at an opponent, it's a little frustrating to say the least. The Hydras have taken the worst beating to date though it feels. When the game first came out, Hydras were an annoyance to Marines, sometimes I'd avoid a room entirely if it had them, but now, they are laughable. They do pitiful damage, do little to discourage anyone from entering a room, go down faster than a Skulk without Carapace it seems, and I have attacked so many Hydras with my LMG, at angles where I could clearly see the full thing but it would not attack me. Every patch they get a little worse and every patch I look at the PRes I spend on them and think I could have spent them better. Marines can locate and destroy a Hydra before it does even any damage to them, and the addition of those tracers on their spikes has made them even simpler to locate and destroy.
The EXO's got a bit of a speed bonus depending on what weapons the EXO was equipped with, which is fine, honestly it was perfect, always made me wonder a little why a single gun EXO was the same speed as a Dual-Gun. And I will say the increase of it's range with the fist was, needed, though now with the Skulks speed nerf, it's just laughable in most situations seeing a skulk rushing an EXO. Unless you catch one alone, or just not paying attention, the EXO will slaughter the Skulk before most significant damage is done. Going alone and being demolished by a single Skulk was punishment for going alone, now it's not even much of a threat anymore.
All of these things essentially make it so that the Alien team is terribly outmatched early game. While the Aliens move at a sluggish pace, attempting to locate the Marines, the Marines are already expanding, taking control of the map before the Aliens even know where the Marines are coming from. Every game I've played with the exception of one since 240 has come out, the Aliens are simply destroyed in early game, the skulk is rendered almost useless and no where near as fun as it used to be to play, leaving the Aliens to just sit and wait until they can afford higher tier lifeforms to even have a chance, but by then, the Marines have gotten their weapons and armor upgrade and the mid and late games quickly turn into a game of 'How Long Can the Aliens Hold Out!'
I really, really, really enjoy this game, but as every patch roles out, the few that have helped the Aliens, have been drowned by the ones that just neuter them. The devs said that they wanted people to be able to play and help their teams even with the baseline life form or equipment. Well, for the Marines this is true, but no longer so for the Aliens. I loved games where it was late game and the map had been cut in half and each team was gearing up for a push or a defense, while I was running around as a skulk, chomping Marines, or nibbling a node, or nomming an armory, or even masticate on an observatory, and possibly even giving an EXO a friendly gobble. Now though, a skulk is at best, little better than canon fodder.
Comments
Skulks are a great lifeform, You can't expect to win every engagement specially when marines have upgrades. Apart from onos skulks are great for killing marine structures. While fades, lerks are dealing with marines a skulk should be taking rts underneath them losing map control.
I'm not to sure why people think skulks are slower, they can outrun a sprinting marine unless the marine has dropped all his weapons. The only nerf was air acceleration. Now they have fixed the momentum loss the skulk is literally the same as before.
Remember, this is a team game.
That's the thing though, Skulks are still slow, they aren't the same as before, they are slower, I've noticed it, I can barely keep up with a Marine who is running with all his weapons, the jump seems like a hop and the acceleration fix didn't seem to do a damn thing. I know it was meant to be an ambush class, but a Marine should still have trouble if two are coming right for him. The fact is, the base life form for the Aliens has taken an enormous hit to it's combat capabilities and the entire team suffers from that.
The Lerk Spike smoke trails is also one of the best things added to this game. Once again this is a change that completely does not effect my Alien game play experience because If you are using its hit / run combat style like me it does not matter if they can see me because I am already gone or constantly strafing at range in a way that they cant hit me. What the Smoke removes from the game is those completely aggravating instances where a single lerk could take out key marine structures without fear of retaliation which was just bad for game play in my experience. And if you liked the spamming / sniping game play you can still do it when you are defending a corridor into your hive for example because there is less chance of you getting counter sniped effectively.
I also think like the new bile bomb, All that was changed was a slight decrease in single target dps and a range nerf. All that means is that its harder for Gorges to demolish entire bases without putting itself at risk without support, and making it harder for them to bring a RT down. This is great, a gorge should not be a RT capping beast and when attacking bases if you focus on landing your bile bomb in clusters of buildings instead of a single target, the damage decrease is hardly noticeable. Also when you tested the bile bomb on a unit of marines, It would only show the number 0 when the marines already have 0 armor. The damage effect is still applied, there is just no armor for the attack to damage so it shows 0.
I agree the tunnels are very expensive but I think it is mainly to keep it way out of the early game, not that any gorge could build a working tunnel at the start anyway. I guess the Alien commander has to make the choice at mid-game or second hive to buy them and sacrifice something else. They should not need to be researched every game though in my opinion.
As you can see the acceleration and movement value have been nerfed to under 50%. Even in theory you can see that the 240 changes were drastic.
The counter arguments for approving of the 240 changes have been TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE.
The lerk spike smoke trails is the worst thing added to this game. It completely cripples the ability for the lerk to perch in combat. You absolutely cannot perch in combat without being instantly targeted. Aliens have two shift abilities that allow them to be sneaky (ambushing). One is the skulk walk and the other is the lerk perch. The only reasonable explanation for the devs to include tracers in b240 is the complaints from a very new player base. The main issue is not whether or not you can get kills with a lerk post b240, but how the devs envisioned lerk combat to be. It makes no sense for the devs to include perching, without assuming they would be able to perch and spike during combat.
The only reason why the skulks' movement and the lerks' tracers were nerfed is because of new players not having the intuition to find a lerk or inability to aim at a skulk. Now while I agree that skulks needed a SMALL movement nerf, over 50% is just plain silly (the celerity while-in-combat nerf also silly). The generic argument of 'get better at skulking' should be taken with a grain of salt, as the complaints of skulks being too hard to hit and the lerks being too hard to see, were what got us here. A game that has dropped in terms of skill by two fold, and two large folds at that. The game has become imbalanced early game because of the skulk and lerk nerfs.
I would have rather had flashlights be more effective so that marines would be able to light up an area no matter what the distance. However, since some maps are really huge, that's not really feasible. I do think they could cut down the tracers a bit to perhaps one every 3-5 spikes.
However, early game lerks are owning right now. It's the late game where lerks need help.
As far as Lerk perching, I use it to prepare an ambush. Perch at height above or near a doorway you expect marines, and you get a full speed glide as soon as you take off. As far as the skulk movement nerf, it's a very hard hit. I don't know why they weren't fine with the animation/hitbox fixes and felt the need to smack the Skulk with the nerf bat. I would have preferred the fixes going out, then testing that with the way Skulks moved before. Unfortunately, I doubt the movement changes will be reverted.
what if said skulk faced an equally skilled marine?
Marine wins.
Lerk spikes shoot in a straight line, marine bullets shoot in a straight line. There is no possibly way a lerk could shoot you and you wouldn't be able to shoot them, so saying they are immune to attack is proposterous. I have never used a flashlight to spot a lerk in any version. The idea that flashlights are helpful in finding lerks is misleading, as they are spotted in other ways, which included actually spotting the lerk, and interpolating their position based on where the spikes landed. It wasn't very difficult even for someone who didn't play pre release.
The only thing that was imbalanced with lerks is their ability to regenerate with the regeneration trait from the crag tech path. The balance change to that would obviously be to tone down regen on lerks, not eliminate the ability to perch while in combat.
I think the big thing now is that cele is a useless upgrade path, moving 2 unit speeds faster around the map is nowhere near as good as silence or caraspace is vs good marines. I think a lot of pub commanders have gone "omg alien speed nerfed need cele" when it's 100% useless in combat and useless against good marines/try hards for positioning, the only possible benefit it adds is the ability to spawn eggs but it's argued that once you have an upgrade worth something in combat you won't need as many eggs as there won't be as many deaths.
Every game I've had shift first felt horrible since 240, aliens need to use their upgrades in a way to improve their odds in combat, not improve a potential macro/egg spawn problem that might not ever exist if you do the first.
MC had its day for a short while before DC took back over in NS1, I believe this is the uncomfortable transition period a lot of people need to sack up and admit they aren't good at skulking and cele isn't helping them or the team.
At the onset of 240, the side affect of the nerfed skulk I liked most was that aliens were basically required to get a lot of gorges, lerks and fades out early. I must say that since gorgeous, I haven't seen the usual 3+ Onos at 12 minutes that tended to happen in every single game.
Unfortunately, the early game consequences are far more detrimental to balance. Skulks die more easily and so lose pRes. Marines kill skulks easily and so take the vast majority of res nodes, they also easily assault and kill alien harvesters. The resource disparity quickly becomes a runaway process by the 5th or so minute. Then people want to play on instead of concede because they can't tell that its happened, and it all inevitably ends with level 3 marines jetpacking in against completely defenseless aliens after wasting 15 minutes.
1 marine can own two Skulks at range pretty easily.
1 Skulk should own two marines at close combat pretty easily, currently they don't.
You can't evoke Zerg like behavior for either team in this game. 1v1 needs to be balanced so that over all combat situations the probability of winning with equal skill is 50%, if you can't reach that then the team with the probability advantage wins by default by sending their whole team in. It can either be 50% all the time or vary depending on circumstance but 50% summed up. Marine vs Skulk the marine should be higher than 50% at range (and I believe it currently is), likewise the Skulk should have the same increase in winning at close range (which I believe it currently doesn't). Add in upgrades and things can shift for a while, giving one team an advantage while the other team techs to counter.
While I agree on Skulks still being lethal and fun to play, the latest changes do become a problem once you're faced with good marines.
Just yesterday it happened that I played as an alien on Mineshaft. Starting Hive was Cave, marine main was Repair. By the time I arrived in Crusher there was already a marine waiting for me. They immediately spread from there to Sorting and locked down the whole map within 2 minutes without any way to flank them. They were ALL really good shots and their comm scanned alot; there was absolutely NO way of getting close to them.
The problem I want to depict is: if marines gain early map control you are screwed as a Skulk because you are forced to assualt the marines head on and loose your ambush bonus.
Whilst I am not the worlds best skulk I am vertainly better than your average pub player.
Since 240 the accel changes have rendered the skulk limp against a marine who know how to shoot and dodge/jump.
Whilst I can get mutiple kills thats against noob marines, heck I have even gone 12-0 early game against noob marines.
When I play with competent players (ie those who have been involved in the beta) I go from a 2 or 3 to 1 skulk to a barely 1 to 1 skulk.
Now its not that I am not closing the distance without getting hit...but that once I am within biting range the marine can easily out manouver me (due to no accel ramp up for marines...so directional changes are faster), to say predict where a marine is jumping is great...except for the fact that predicting where someone will jump to is nigh on a dice roll.
Marines are able to change direction with ease yet skulks have to guess where a marine will jump to (back, sideways, forwards etc).
I used to struggle to get greater than 1:1 as a marine...since the latest patches even I can look like a pro player.
Skulks getting in bite range no longer sign my death warrant, instead they might land 1 or 2 bites...but will struggle to get more than that.
Sure you will find the occasional player who makes skulking look easy (mf....looking at you) but for most mere mortals that level is far from being achievable or a realistic expectation.
Marine play is easy mode...has been that way for a while now...the balance in 239 was actually pretty damn good and the accel changes are simply overkill.
Cheers,
Cody
- Skulkvsmarine is currently in a better state than before imo. It needs some slight adjustments though. And yes, you can still sneak up on two or even more marines and come out on top. If those marines are good players though, you will probably die fast, as you should.
- Bilebomb is still pretty good, even with the nerf. It used to be a bit OP, according to many.
- Hydras at the moment are way more useful than they were at release. Do you even remember how gimped they were at release? There used to be a time you could just move from side to side whilst shooting them, and they would all simply miss. Now they actually hit marines reliably. As does the gorge spit.
- You can't take out an exo as a solo skulk while running straight at them? Huge problem? This messes up the early game?
- Skulks can still move around pretty quick with the walljump boost. It's mainly in melee combat that they are less agile and suffer more against a good dodging marine.
In short, you're overreacting.
The accel issues mean the marine can more easily change direction and subsequently avoid being bitten.
Not early game at all...requires second hive and is mid game not early.
No hydras are still easily avoided and do pitiful damage considering their cost and limit.
Who said that? Actually I still can solo an exo as exo's dont have the ability to jump out of the way like marines.
Which is exactly the whole point...early game aliens are skulks...lerks are borderline but closer to mid than early game.
In short your burying your head in teh sand...the issues have been articulated by myself and many others.
The crux is the accel changes widened the gap too much as marines dont have any ramp up of accel (haven't since late beta around the time of skulk surfing).
Fact is that skulks early game are pretty worthless...and their value only goes downhill.
Heck even when you have a 4 hive aliens team the tier 3 ability (xeno) cant kill a marine as he spawns (assuming atleast some armour upgrades)...get late game marines can tear all sorts of strips out of all aliens.
Only Onos is partially safe.
your point would be valid if there were no other lifeforms beside skulk.
skulk is not intended to reliably kill a marine in a 1v1 arena. you have to either ambush, attack in groups or gamble and attack if you're confident that the marine is lesser skilled.
in my personal opinion the current game is a bit boring because marine have the advantage early on, and aliens are in a position where it feels like they have to force marines into a mistake to have a chance of their own. however, UWE are experimenting with bold changes to make the game more dynamic and exciting - check out the balance test mod.
anyway, i'm tired of this whine. whenever i lose pub as alien team it's either because marine team is more skilled, or because aliens are full of whining scrubs.
The only other one worth considering for this discussion is the Gorge. I'd be happy if they made it combat effective, but at the moment it isn't.
Some easy things to understand:
- In a game with even player-numbers for each team, one sides default class can't defeat 2 of the others side default classes with even skill. Or you have an unbalanced game like we had before 240.
- When a patch changes something, you better adapt to the change.
- Crying that something isn't overpowered anymore and should returned to its former state, because it is so much fun to win, will not do any good for the game.
This said, the skulk is fine right now. It is at least more fair than pre 240. Learn to walljump and to chose when to engage.