Unfortunately, the early game consequences are far more detrimental to balance. Skulks die more easily and so lose pRes. Marines kill skulks easily and so take the vast majority of res nodes, they also easily assault and kill alien harvesters. The resource disparity quickly becomes a runaway process by the 5th or so minute. Then people want to play on instead of concede because they can't tell that its happened, and it all inevitably ends with level 3 marines jetpacking in against completely defenseless aliens after wasting 15 minutes.
The other day I played on a server where Marines had four rapid wins in a row. In each game, by the five minute mark it was obvious that Marines had won due to sheer map domination. We then played it out to see if we could take down the hive before the ten minute mark so as to get a victory before the aliens could concede.
In each game we picked a different way to kill the hive, no bullets allowed. One time we used nothing but flamethrowers, once we used nothing but MACs, and once we used nothing but rifle butts.
These were utter LOLgames, of course. The aliens were all good sports about it. After four games everyone started going random so as to equalize the teams, and we had some very good games after that (including a forty minute epic with a base swap and a desperate comeback). Marines were a little stacked in the first four games, but even so, it really underscored a) just how improved the early-game marine situation is compared to 239, and b) just how important the early game is to the ultimate outcome.
Also: early marine advantages turn into rapid victories like we're seeing now; early alien advantages turn into horrible twenty- and thirty-minute futile grinds like we used to see in 239.
In most of the games that I play in, 4 - 5 decent skulks will easily decimate 3 - 4 marines, but not head-on (usually). Say you want to hold Repair Room on tram. There is no reason why the skulks should leave Repair Room to engage the marines head-on. Stay back, parasite to weaken their armor and swarm them when they either walk into Repair Room or stand close to the doorway (like idiots).
If I've noticed one thing in recent games, the absolute worst thing you can do as aliens is hunt in a big group.
If you win the encounter, I guess everything is just fine and dandy. You will kill some marines, and maybe even take down a 10 res extractor. That's great. I guess you might even break even on the resources front.
However, if you lose, and all 5-6 of you die at the same time, the avalanche begins. Straight away you've got 13 seconds with essentially nobody on the field. Over all, you have 26 seconds of being at half strength. What's more, if anybody else dies during that time, no chance in hell that they are getting a timely egg. Heaven forbid they rush a position that your team needs like your second tech point, or even worse, your hive. You will never have a full team on the field again.
Straight floor running skulks lose early engagements, just as newbie 'waste my entire rifle magazine shooting at a cyst' marines can lose early engagements.
A competant marine team will usually take and hold ground quickly in the early game, using the advantages of range, firepower and teammates' covering fire to hold back skulks. Knowledge of the map and avoidance of likely skulk ambush spots or tight quarters, plus tactical positioning (on top of a box, behind some railing, etc) add to the marine advantage.
A competant alien team will recognize that throwing themselves into an open area against an equally competant marine team hell-bent on holding the area is usually futile. It is usually better to go AROUND the marines and hit their extractors from behind to force them to respond, or even snipe their obs/IP in base. It is also viable to organize an ambush in anticipation of the marines heading to an objective (ie. marines in East Wing are likely to push up to Departures).
When skulks lose an early engagement with marines, step back and figure out why you lost that fight. Did you rush out head-on into concentrated rifle fire from a high ground/distance? Did you have floor running skulks? Did you step on some mines? Was there an ubermensch marine with 100fps in combat and superb aim? Did they have a forward armory? Was the comm spamming meds? You can't just tell me that skulks easily lose early engagements without telling me the reasons.
In most of the games that I play in, 4 - 5 decent skulks will easily decimate 3 - 4 marines, but not head-on (usually). Say you want to hold Repair Room on tram. There is no reason why the skulks should leave Repair Room to engage the marines head-on. Stay back, parasite to weaken their armor and swarm them when they either walk into Repair Room or stand close to the doorway (like idiots).
Really? How come competitive games you see both Skulks and Marines killing each-other, so what you say must be incorrect.
I starting to think people's inadequacies are too much on the line here, it would be good to see how these people play Skulk, cause they most be doing it wrong.
Really? How come competitive games you see both Skulks and Marines killing each-other, so what you say must be incorrect.
I starting to think people's inadequacies are too much on the line here, it would be good to see how these people play Skulk, cause they most be doing it wrong.
I think the biggest problem was 1) Fixing hitreg and 2) Nerfing skulk acceleration --- at the same time --.
I would have first dealt with 1) and then, if needed, with 2).
Also, the acceleration nerf seems quite steep, at least on the paper.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Have these people even played Aliens for more than 5 minutes with the new patches? lol... clearly not.
Better hitreg is very fine and was needed. The rest is a joke.
@discussion:
Let's not forget about the halved friction too (especially important for quick direction changes against Marine hopping), that might be an equal cause of the problem.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
I still skulk fine. You know, if we're using anecdotal evidence to support wild claims unverified by numbers. Is it harder? Yes. It needed to be, I can no longer fly into 5 marines and dodge around killing them all during various reloads. I'm not even that great of a player but running up walls and jumping off made you both incredibly fast and bugged out the hitbox.
I do feel they should fix the walljump acceleration loss (that's a bug isn't it?) other than that the skulk feels ok for a base level unit.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
The problem came from both coming at once.
That's not really relevant to my post. My point is, as I clearly stated, that you can't blame the 66-34 alien-marine win ratio (competitive) in pre-240 builds on marines just not playing as a coordinated team, because aliens won even more matches in competitive than in public.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
The problem came from both coming at once.
That's not really relevant to my post. My point is, as I clearly stated, that you can't blame the 66-34 alien-marine win ratio (competitive) in pre-240 builds on marines just not playing as a coordinated team, because aliens won even more matches in competitive than in public.
And my point was that it wasn't bad play that caused it. It was a variety of other factors (one of the most prominent being a bug causing skulks to flip out and break the minds of their enemies before reaching them).
And the poster you were responding to was talking about public games, not competitive games. Public games suffer from doorway marine, no mines, nobody having a welder, and more.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
The problem came from both coming at once.
That's not really relevant to my post. My point is, as I clearly stated, that you can't blame the 66-34 alien-marine win ratio (competitive) in pre-240 builds on marines just not playing as a coordinated team, because aliens won even more matches in competitive than in public.
And my point was that it wasn't bad play that caused it. It was a variety of other factors (one of the most prominent being a bug causing skulks to flip out and break the minds of their enemies before reaching them).
I agree that the problems lay elsewhere, other than bad play.
And the poster you were responding to was talking about public games, not competitive games. Public games suffer from doorway marine, no mines, nobody having a welder, and more.
He didn't specifically say it was about public. And his post seemed to imply that there was actually nothing wrong with balance, or at least that the imbalance wasn't caused by game mechanics, but somehow by the fact that marine players were somehow magically and automatically the more stupid team and thus lost matches.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Have these people even played Aliens for more than 5 minutes with the new patches? lol... clearly not.
Better hitreg is very fine and was needed. The rest is a joke.
I play both sides equally, and actually didn't care about the win/loss ratio before the update, and as I keep saying Skulk is fine, if used properly, also the nerf is small now, the real issue was the friction when hitting the ground, now which is resolved.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
The problem came from both coming at once.
That's not really relevant to my post. My point is, as I clearly stated, that you can't blame the 66-34 alien-marine win ratio (competitive) in pre-240 builds on marines just not playing as a coordinated team, because aliens won even more matches in competitive than in public.
And my point was that it wasn't bad play that caused it. It was a variety of other factors (one of the most prominent being a bug causing skulks to flip out and break the minds of their enemies before reaching them).
I agree that the problems lay elsewhere, other than bad play.
And the poster you were responding to was talking about public games, not competitive games. Public games suffer from doorway marine, no mines, nobody having a welder, and more.
He didn't specifically say it was about public. And his post seemed to imply that there was actually nothing wrong with balance, or at least that the imbalance wasn't caused by game mechanics, but somehow by the fact that marine players were somehow magically and automatically the more stupid team and thus lost matches.
He did not mention competitive play in his post. And, unfortunately, aside from the aforementioned bug the main reason marines keep losing is because they refuse to use mines. Every time I get a team who listens to me and buys mines when I comm wins because we no longer have to worry about running back to save an extractor until the aliens get a second hive (as it's likely they'll go Shift first).
A bit off topic, but I've already said all I have to say about the skulk as it is now.
Which isn't the case for me, nor does the facts go with you, both Comp games and Pub games have the ratio 50:50 give or take 5.
Also what severs do you play, "We Aliens suck super bad"?
No, but I think you play on "We marines can't hit anything".
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarily skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
Which isn't the case for me, nor does the facts go with you, both Comp games and Pub games have the ratio 50:50 give or take 5.
Also what severs do you play, "We Aliens suck super bad"?
No, but I think you play on "We marines can't hit anything".
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarly skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I said both Pub and Comp play, not just Comp play. But again you're incorrect, because if we do use Comp play where they are similarly skilled, both sides still win, stop using anecdotal/personal views as evidence.
I like I said I play on the clan severs which usually get the better players on, also play in ENSL gathers as-well.
Which isn't the case for me, nor does the facts go with you, both Comp games and Pub games have the ratio 50:50 give or take 5.
Also what severs do you play, "We Aliens suck super bad"?
No, but I think you play on "We marines can't hit anything".
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarly skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I said both Pub and Comp play, not just Comp play. But again you're incorrect, because if we do use Comp play where they are similarly skilled, both sides still win, stop using anecdotal/personal views as evidence.
I like I said I play on the clan severs which usually get the better players on, also play in ENSL gathers as-well.
So, if the win rate is close to 50:50, that means that EVERY team will go 50:50? What?
Pubs are a joke, marines lose because they are dumb and can't hit anything, aliens lose because they are straight liners and every alien comm likes to go shift for some weird reason.
ENSL gathers are nothing more than pugs, we should be talking about teams, real matches.
Which isn't the case for me, nor does the facts go with you, both Comp games and Pub games have the ratio 50:50 give or take 5.
Also what severs do you play, "We Aliens suck super bad"?
No, but I think you play on "We marines can't hit anything".
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarly skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I said both Pub and Comp play, not just Comp play. But again you're incorrect, because if we do use Comp play where they are similarly skilled, both sides still win, stop using anecdotal/personal views as evidence.
I like I said I play on the clan severs which usually get the better players on, also play in ENSL gathers as-well.
So, if the win rate is close to 50:50, that means that EVERY team will go 50:50? What?
Pubs are a joke, marines lose because they are dumb and can't hit anything, aliens lose because they are straight liners and every alien comm likes to go shift for some weird reason.
ENSL gathers are nothing more than pugs, we should be talking about teams, real matches.
Your logic seems flawed, those ratio(and I did say give and take) are based on the available data namely NS2 stats, which give us a fairly even win & loss for both sides.
But you opinion is very silly, you're playing on the wrong servers, the ones I play seems to not suffer the same things you do, join Yo or Alcatraz, maybe even DB one, your opinion might change a little, if you're American then I don't know many servers that side of the pond, maybe we have better players I don't know.
I find ENSL to have some of the best teamwork, because that's what they join for and the more competitive edge.
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarily skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I just don't know what to make of this post. Which statistics WILL prove something, if not competitive? Your few public, anecdotal statistics?
Competitive play more or less eliminates the skill difference between teams, and as both teams always play as both aliens and marines in a single match, it can pretty effectively be used to see the differences between marines and aliens balance-wise. Sure you get your odd stomp-fest matches even in competitive, especially in some tournaments where there's bound to be arranged matches between teams on unequal skill, but more often than not clans scrim against teams from their own skill-level.
It's not perfect, but it's a much better representative of balance issues than public, and not only because of the high skill level of players (which will lead to both teams utilising the best tools given to them instead of indulging in something that won't lead them to a victory), but also because the team will have the exact same composition when they switch sides after a round, playing the same map with the same players, but on the different side. If you get nothing but alien or marine victories, you know there's something afoot, if all other factors can be minimised.
Also, please stop using build 240 as a milestone, the skulk movement issue was a bug that got fixed, and had a huge impact on marine victories. Build 241 has the best balance so far.
Wow a lot of butthurt Marine players here, seeking revenge for the fact that the pre 240 60% Alien winrate was mostly the fault of shitty players shooting at Clog Walls for the entire game. That certainly is a good basis for a balance discussion!
Have these people even played Aliens for more than 5 minutes with the new patches? lol... clearly not.
Better hitreg is very fine and was needed. The rest is a joke.
@discussion:
Let's not forget about the halved friction too (especially important for quick direction changes against Marine hopping), that might be an equal cause of the problem.
That is exactly what happened. So many complaints came about lerks being too hard to find or skulks being too hard to hit. Now the guys who complained about it got their way, a double nerf to the alien early game. And the funny thing is they are telling us that we should get better? No we're trying to tell you that the acceleration and friction values were cut in half, limiting how good you can be with a skulk, as in lowering the skill ceiling. Perhaps we're also telling you that the shift key is unusable for the lerk with tracers now, and it is a total noob nerf. And it looks like a total noob nerf too.
Just let the good skulks be really good and not limit them. Post B240 *sigh*.
I don't like the tracers for the lerk. But I think the skulk is at a good point right now. *boom* head explodes. And I also have the experience that both teams are somewhat balanced right now. But this is anecdotal and maybe wrong. But in no way have you presented any facts that would support, that the marine team is overpowered right now. And no, any changes in the movement don't have to have impact on the balance. They can, but they are no prove of how the balance is in any way.
There is no need to pretend that the people who like the skulk are all notorious marine players or that there is some other obscure reason why they intentionally want imbalance. They just really think it is fine in some way. And you won't convince anybody by repeating how the skulk acceleration has changed or how they all want to ruin your game. Either gather some facts or accept, that there are different opinions created by different experiences in the rounds we play.
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarily skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I just don't know what to make of this post. Which statistics WILL prove something, if not competitive? Your few public, anecdotal statistics?
Competitive play more or less eliminates the skill difference between teams, and as both teams always play as both aliens and marines in a single match, it can pretty effectively be used to see the differences between marines and aliens balance-wise. Sure you get your odd stomp-fest matches even in competitive, especially in some tournaments where there's bound to be arranged matches between teams on unequal skill, but more often than not clans scrim against teams from their own skill-level.
It's not perfect, but it's a much better representative of balance issues than public, and not only because of the high skill level of players (which will lead to both teams utilising the best tools given to them instead of indulging in something that won't lead them to a victory), but also because the team will have the exact same composition when they switch sides after a round, playing the same map with the same players, but on the different side. If you get nothing but alien or marine victories, you know there's something afoot, if all other factors can be minimised.
Also, please stop using build 240 as a milestone, the skulk movement issue was a bug that got fixed, and had a huge impact on marine victories. Build 241 has the best balance so far.
You're correct and I admit my mistake, let me fix my sentence:
Current competitive statistics don't prove that the game is balanced in anyway.
Good marines will beat good aliens.
Average marines and lower: probably alien favored.
I don't expect that to change, but hopefully I'll be proven wrong when the ENSL tourny starts.
While I agree good skulks could be somewhat over the top before 240, I don't think their speed should've been the target of nerfbats, we have so many other good options (glancing bites, overall hp), they took the one that made the skulk fun.
And do you think the acceleration and friction changes in 240 didn't impact them? Not to mention now that walljump feels broken past a certain point and I'm not even sure if that is intended.
I just don't know what to make of this post. Which statistics WILL prove something, if not competitive? Your few public, anecdotal statistics?
A specific bracket of play will never tell you anything about overall balance.
It will tell you about balance in that bracket, but it won't tell you about balance.
Thank you for sharing your plethora of statistical knowledge strofix. Anyway, where is Scardybob. That man is a stats genius.
Gorgeous has been out for about two weeks and people seem to think that by analyzing that small window of time, they can tell how balanced the game is. Give it time. The guys at UWE are not idiots. They watch game logs and read community input. (Both from public players and competitive players.) I am sure that some balance changes are soon to come.
I am not a troll, and I am an avid gamer. But I have specifically signed up to this forum to tell you (UWE) how frustrating you've made of the skulk with the latest patch. The rest of the game is very good though.
I know it's difficult to balance this game, so I'll try and be constructive.
I bought this game before the last few patches and always had fun, but after 240 it has become stupid to play as the skulk. This may be because I am crap, but I do play many pc games and unless you're aiming solely at competitive players I'm probably your target market (casual online gamer).
As I see it, the skulk is a lot like the Aliens out of the Alien franchise- quick, deadly at close range, but easy to take down with a rifle. But with the latest patch this isn't the case. They are now pretty slow and the damage detection is pretty poor. Marines can hop around and essentially escape a lot of harm.
Some may say it makes it challenging. And it does, to a certain extent, but mostly it's more annoying than challenging.
If any of you ever played the original Aliens vs Predator multiplayer on the pc, those guys got it just right- the Alien was a lethal killing machine when it got up close, but could be taken down easily if it got spotted. (unfortunately they made the Alien slower in the second game and made it crap again).
I appreciate how difficult it must be to balance all the variables in the game- so well done for making most of the experience enjoyable. But I hope you appreciate that my frustration led me to specifically sign up to 'vent'.
Thank you for sharing your plethora of statistical knowledge strofix.
Clever. Ridicule the reasoning without ever questioning it.
A brilliant tactic sure to work on those not paying attention.
WAKE UP SHEEPLE.
On topic, where is all this jazz about lerks being nerfed coming from? Their speed, acceleration etc are all the same between 239 and 241. When I play aliens I almost exclusively play lerk and flight feels the same to me.
B241
Lerk.kWallGripMaxSpeed = 4
Lerk.kWallGripSlideTime = 0.7
Lerk.kWallGripSmoothTime = 0.6
Lerk.kWallGripRange = 0.2
Lerk.kWallGripFeelerSize = 0.25\
local kViewOffsetHeight = 0.5
Lerk.XZExtents = 0.4
Lerk.YExtents = 0.4
local kJumpImpulse = 4
local kFlapStraightUpImpulse = 4
local kFlapThrustMoveScalar = 4.5
local kMass = 54
local kJumpHeight = 1.5
local kSwoopGravityScalar = -30.0
local kRegularGravityScalar = -7
local kFlightGravityScalar = -4
local kMaxWalkSpeed = 2.8
local kMaxSpeed = 11
local kAirAcceleration = 7
local flying2DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying")
local flying3DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying")
local kGroundFrictionForce = 8
local kGroundAcceleration = 23
B239
Lerk.kWallGripMaxSpeed = 4
Lerk.kWallGripSlideTime = 0.7
Lerk.kWallGripSmoothTime = 0.6
Lerk.kWallGripRange = 0.2
Lerk.kWallGripFeelerSize = 0.25
local kViewOffsetHeight = 0.5
Lerk.XZExtents = 0.4
Lerk.YExtents = 0.4
local kJumpImpulse = 4
local kFlapStraightUpImpulse = 4
local kFlapThrustMoveScalar = 4.5
local kMass = 54
local kJumpHeight = 1.5
local kSwoopGravityScalar = -30.0
local kRegularGravityScalar = -7
local kFlightGravityScalar = -4
local kMaxWalkSpeed = 2.8
local kMaxSpeed = 11
local kAirAcceleration = 7
local flying2DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying")
local flying3DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying")
local kGroundFrictionForce = 8
local kGroundAcceleration = 23
The only change really has been the tracers which punishes roosting lerks. Stop roosting and learn to spike while flying. Sitting still was a death sentence previously against anyone who can aim and it still is.
P.S. Tracers are fine but the effect is over the top.
mainly @Therius and @Timarius:
1. I never meant the game was balanced pre 240, or is now.
It is my conviction that, if 12 identical clones of me vs 12 identical clones of me had played games pre 240, Marines would have won the majority though (like 60%+). The difference between this and the real pub win rate is what I meant by players "shooting at Clog walls".
But I can see that in public games with random players, Marines were disadvantaged pre 240 - mainly because they needed to be much more strategic and keep the pressure while Aliens just needed to wait and collect money while occasionally biting some Extractors. Aliens never really had to struggle because they were hardly pressured (because overall, balance was on their side, no matter the exact reason).
2. The other reason why Marines were disadvantaged pre 240 is the hitreg. Seeing the difference between then and now, I'm sure this played a *big* role. The hitreg fix in 240 is plain good and needed, period.
3. I don't think competitive winrate should be used to judge if the game is balanced. Competitive games are great to see how the game works when everyone is at the expected skill ceiling, so nothing will be grossly overpowered. But they seem to be very different from usual pub games (half the team sizes, totally different build orders, etc).
Now for the important part:
4. Win rates are a bad way to do judge balance, you have to look what they mean. For example, answer this question:
What would a "balanced" win rate for games under 60 seconds be?
a) 50% wins for either team
b) 90% Marine wins
c) 90% Alien wins
Hint: 60 seconds is really short.
So, let's look what an under 60 second game very likely means. First, it is a Skulk rush. Secondly, it is a Skulk rush that went unnoticed by the Marine team until Aliens were in their base (because if they were noticed, the game would certainly have lasted more than 60 seconds) and it means most Marines never saw the enemy (even if Aliens had killed most Marines, they probably wouldn't have won under 60 seconds). It is probably the fastest a game can be ended.
So, obviously 90% Alien win rate is the balanced win rate for games under 60 seconds. Because, on the condition that the game is ended in under 60 seconds, how can Aliens not win?
What I'm trying to say: you cannot judge balance solely from statistics without at any point having to look what the statistics mean for the actual game.
A 50% win rate in any situation (like for any game length) LITERALLY means, no matter what you do, it changes nothing. This is not balance, this is arbitrary and the opposite of a fun game (your actions mean nothing).
This is the Blizzard style game balance that looks good on paper and sucks every fun out of the game.
5. Skulk play does feel arbitrary now. No matter what you do, you get stomped.
You play shitty? You get stomped. You team is much better overall than Marines, but they aren't total noobs? You still get stomped.
You run towards a single Marine on the floor? You get shot. You skillfully ambush a single Marine, taking your time? Marine activates bunny mode, and you still get shot.
I feel that, if 12 identical clones of me played against 12 identical clones of me past 240, Marine win rate would be 99,99999%.
It's just not fun to play Skulk with the bunnyhop thing and late game uselessness due to hitreg.
Maybe instead of getting the acceleration/friction back, Skulks should just get more HP - Marines would have to reload more often while bunnyhopping (which changes a lot), and the hitreg is somehow alleviated.
Comments
The other day I played on a server where Marines had four rapid wins in a row. In each game, by the five minute mark it was obvious that Marines had won due to sheer map domination. We then played it out to see if we could take down the hive before the ten minute mark so as to get a victory before the aliens could concede.
In each game we picked a different way to kill the hive, no bullets allowed. One time we used nothing but flamethrowers, once we used nothing but MACs, and once we used nothing but rifle butts.
These were utter LOLgames, of course. The aliens were all good sports about it. After four games everyone started going random so as to equalize the teams, and we had some very good games after that (including a forty minute epic with a base swap and a desperate comeback). Marines were a little stacked in the first four games, but even so, it really underscored a) just how improved the early-game marine situation is compared to 239, and b) just how important the early game is to the ultimate outcome.
Also: early marine advantages turn into rapid victories like we're seeing now; early alien advantages turn into horrible twenty- and thirty-minute futile grinds like we used to see in 239.
If I've noticed one thing in recent games, the absolute worst thing you can do as aliens is hunt in a big group.
If you win the encounter, I guess everything is just fine and dandy. You will kill some marines, and maybe even take down a 10 res extractor. That's great. I guess you might even break even on the resources front.
However, if you lose, and all 5-6 of you die at the same time, the avalanche begins. Straight away you've got 13 seconds with essentially nobody on the field. Over all, you have 26 seconds of being at half strength. What's more, if anybody else dies during that time, no chance in hell that they are getting a timely egg. Heaven forbid they rush a position that your team needs like your second tech point, or even worse, your hive. You will never have a full team on the field again.
You're missing the point here.
Good marines vs good skulks: Marines win.
Why? Skulks are too goddamn slow.
Really? How come competitive games you see both Skulks and Marines killing each-other, so what you say must be incorrect.
I starting to think people's inadequacies are too much on the line here, it would be good to see how these people play Skulk, cause they most be doing it wrong.
Since 240, all I see is marine wins.
I would have first dealt with 1) and then, if needed, with 2).
Also, the acceleration nerf seems quite steep, at least on the paper.
Have these people even played Aliens for more than 5 minutes with the new patches? lol... clearly not.
Better hitreg is very fine and was needed. The rest is a joke.
@discussion:
Let's not forget about the halved friction too (especially important for quick direction changes against Marine hopping), that might be an equal cause of the problem.
Why do so many people continuously ignore the fact that the balance was even MORE skewed towards aliens in competitive than in public games back in pre-240? You can't blame that on bad play.
Perhaps it has something to do with that big animation problem caused by skulks changing surfaces causing their model to spaz out? You know... the one that affected aim and hit registration? The one that was fixed in 240, which also introduced a skulk movement nerf at the same time?
The problem came from both coming at once.
I do feel they should fix the walljump acceleration loss (that's a bug isn't it?) other than that the skulk feels ok for a base level unit.
That's not really relevant to my post. My point is, as I clearly stated, that you can't blame the 66-34 alien-marine win ratio (competitive) in pre-240 builds on marines just not playing as a coordinated team, because aliens won even more matches in competitive than in public.
And my point was that it wasn't bad play that caused it. It was a variety of other factors (one of the most prominent being a bug causing skulks to flip out and break the minds of their enemies before reaching them).
And the poster you were responding to was talking about public games, not competitive games. Public games suffer from doorway marine, no mines, nobody having a welder, and more.
Which isn't the case for me, nor does the facts go with you, both Comp games and Pub games have the ratio 50:50 give or take 5.
Also what severs do you play, "We Aliens suck super bad"?
I agree that the problems lay elsewhere, other than bad play.
He didn't specifically say it was about public. And his post seemed to imply that there was actually nothing wrong with balance, or at least that the imbalance wasn't caused by game mechanics, but somehow by the fact that marine players were somehow magically and automatically the more stupid team and thus lost matches.
I play both sides equally, and actually didn't care about the win/loss ratio before the update, and as I keep saying Skulk is fine, if used properly, also the nerf is small now, the real issue was the friction when hitting the ground, now which is resolved.
He did not mention competitive play in his post. And, unfortunately, aside from the aforementioned bug the main reason marines keep losing is because they refuse to use mines. Every time I get a team who listens to me and buys mines when I comm wins because we no longer have to worry about running back to save an extractor until the aliens get a second hive (as it's likely they'll go Shift first).
A bit off topic, but I've already said all I have to say about the skulk as it is now.
No, but I think you play on "We marines can't hit anything".
Competitive statistics don't prove anything, we rarely see teams similarily skilled playing against each other, and since 240, when we do, it's all marine wins.
I said both Pub and Comp play, not just Comp play. But again you're incorrect, because if we do use Comp play where they are similarly skilled, both sides still win, stop using anecdotal/personal views as evidence.
I like I said I play on the clan severs which usually get the better players on, also play in ENSL gathers as-well.
So, if the win rate is close to 50:50, that means that EVERY team will go 50:50? What?
Pubs are a joke, marines lose because they are dumb and can't hit anything, aliens lose because they are straight liners and every alien comm likes to go shift for some weird reason.
ENSL gathers are nothing more than pugs, we should be talking about teams, real matches.
Your logic seems flawed, those ratio(and I did say give and take) are based on the available data namely NS2 stats, which give us a fairly even win & loss for both sides.
But you opinion is very silly, you're playing on the wrong servers, the ones I play seems to not suffer the same things you do, join Yo or Alcatraz, maybe even DB one, your opinion might change a little, if you're American then I don't know many servers that side of the pond, maybe we have better players I don't know.
I find ENSL to have some of the best teamwork, because that's what they join for and the more competitive edge.
I just don't know what to make of this post. Which statistics WILL prove something, if not competitive? Your few public, anecdotal statistics?
Competitive play more or less eliminates the skill difference between teams, and as both teams always play as both aliens and marines in a single match, it can pretty effectively be used to see the differences between marines and aliens balance-wise. Sure you get your odd stomp-fest matches even in competitive, especially in some tournaments where there's bound to be arranged matches between teams on unequal skill, but more often than not clans scrim against teams from their own skill-level.
It's not perfect, but it's a much better representative of balance issues than public, and not only because of the high skill level of players (which will lead to both teams utilising the best tools given to them instead of indulging in something that won't lead them to a victory), but also because the team will have the exact same composition when they switch sides after a round, playing the same map with the same players, but on the different side. If you get nothing but alien or marine victories, you know there's something afoot, if all other factors can be minimised.
Also, please stop using build 240 as a milestone, the skulk movement issue was a bug that got fixed, and had a huge impact on marine victories. Build 241 has the best balance so far.
That is exactly what happened. So many complaints came about lerks being too hard to find or skulks being too hard to hit. Now the guys who complained about it got their way, a double nerf to the alien early game. And the funny thing is they are telling us that we should get better? No we're trying to tell you that the acceleration and friction values were cut in half, limiting how good you can be with a skulk, as in lowering the skill ceiling. Perhaps we're also telling you that the shift key is unusable for the lerk with tracers now, and it is a total noob nerf. And it looks like a total noob nerf too.
Just let the good skulks be really good and not limit them. Post B240 *sigh*.
I don't like the tracers for the lerk. But I think the skulk is at a good point right now. *boom* head explodes. And I also have the experience that both teams are somewhat balanced right now. But this is anecdotal and maybe wrong. But in no way have you presented any facts that would support, that the marine team is overpowered right now. And no, any changes in the movement don't have to have impact on the balance. They can, but they are no prove of how the balance is in any way.
There is no need to pretend that the people who like the skulk are all notorious marine players or that there is some other obscure reason why they intentionally want imbalance. They just really think it is fine in some way. And you won't convince anybody by repeating how the skulk acceleration has changed or how they all want to ruin your game. Either gather some facts or accept, that there are different opinions created by different experiences in the rounds we play.
You're correct and I admit my mistake, let me fix my sentence:
Current competitive statistics don't prove that the game is balanced in anyway.
Good marines will beat good aliens.
Average marines and lower: probably alien favored.
I don't expect that to change, but hopefully I'll be proven wrong when the ENSL tourny starts.
While I agree good skulks could be somewhat over the top before 240, I don't think their speed should've been the target of nerfbats, we have so many other good options (glancing bites, overall hp), they took the one that made the skulk fun.
And do you think the acceleration and friction changes in 240 didn't impact them? Not to mention now that walljump feels broken past a certain point and I'm not even sure if that is intended.
A specific bracket of play will never tell you anything about overall balance.
It will tell you about balance in that bracket, but it won't tell you about balance.
Gorgeous has been out for about two weeks and people seem to think that by analyzing that small window of time, they can tell how balanced the game is. Give it time. The guys at UWE are not idiots. They watch game logs and read community input. (Both from public players and competitive players.) I am sure that some balance changes are soon to come.
Clever. Ridicule the reasoning without ever questioning it.
A brilliant tactic sure to work on those not paying attention.
I know it's difficult to balance this game, so I'll try and be constructive.
I bought this game before the last few patches and always had fun, but after 240 it has become stupid to play as the skulk. This may be because I am crap, but I do play many pc games and unless you're aiming solely at competitive players I'm probably your target market (casual online gamer).
As I see it, the skulk is a lot like the Aliens out of the Alien franchise- quick, deadly at close range, but easy to take down with a rifle. But with the latest patch this isn't the case. They are now pretty slow and the damage detection is pretty poor. Marines can hop around and essentially escape a lot of harm.
Some may say it makes it challenging. And it does, to a certain extent, but mostly it's more annoying than challenging.
If any of you ever played the original Aliens vs Predator multiplayer on the pc, those guys got it just right- the Alien was a lethal killing machine when it got up close, but could be taken down easily if it got spotted. (unfortunately they made the Alien slower in the second game and made it crap again).
I appreciate how difficult it must be to balance all the variables in the game- so well done for making most of the experience enjoyable. But I hope you appreciate that my frustration led me to specifically sign up to 'vent'.
ta
WAKE UP SHEEPLE.
On topic, where is all this jazz about lerks being nerfed coming from? Their speed, acceleration etc are all the same between 239 and 241. When I play aliens I almost exclusively play lerk and flight feels the same to me.
B241 Lerk.kWallGripMaxSpeed = 4 Lerk.kWallGripSlideTime = 0.7 Lerk.kWallGripSmoothTime = 0.6 Lerk.kWallGripRange = 0.2 Lerk.kWallGripFeelerSize = 0.25\ local kViewOffsetHeight = 0.5 Lerk.XZExtents = 0.4 Lerk.YExtents = 0.4 local kJumpImpulse = 4 local kFlapStraightUpImpulse = 4 local kFlapThrustMoveScalar = 4.5 local kMass = 54 local kJumpHeight = 1.5 local kSwoopGravityScalar = -30.0 local kRegularGravityScalar = -7 local kFlightGravityScalar = -4 local kMaxWalkSpeed = 2.8 local kMaxSpeed = 11 local kAirAcceleration = 7 local flying2DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying") local flying3DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying") local kGroundFrictionForce = 8 local kGroundAcceleration = 23 B239 Lerk.kWallGripMaxSpeed = 4 Lerk.kWallGripSlideTime = 0.7 Lerk.kWallGripSmoothTime = 0.6 Lerk.kWallGripRange = 0.2 Lerk.kWallGripFeelerSize = 0.25 local kViewOffsetHeight = 0.5 Lerk.XZExtents = 0.4 Lerk.YExtents = 0.4 local kJumpImpulse = 4 local kFlapStraightUpImpulse = 4 local kFlapThrustMoveScalar = 4.5 local kMass = 54 local kJumpHeight = 1.5 local kSwoopGravityScalar = -30.0 local kRegularGravityScalar = -7 local kFlightGravityScalar = -4 local kMaxWalkSpeed = 2.8 local kMaxSpeed = 11 local kAirAcceleration = 7 local flying2DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying") local flying3DSound = PrecacheAsset("sound/NS2.fev/alien/lerk/flying") local kGroundFrictionForce = 8 local kGroundAcceleration = 23The only change really has been the tracers which punishes roosting lerks. Stop roosting and learn to spike while flying. Sitting still was a death sentence previously against anyone who can aim and it still is.
P.S. Tracers are fine but the effect is over the top.
mainly @Therius and @Timarius:
1. I never meant the game was balanced pre 240, or is now.
It is my conviction that, if 12 identical clones of me vs 12 identical clones of me had played games pre 240, Marines would have won the majority though (like 60%+). The difference between this and the real pub win rate is what I meant by players "shooting at Clog walls".
But I can see that in public games with random players, Marines were disadvantaged pre 240 - mainly because they needed to be much more strategic and keep the pressure while Aliens just needed to wait and collect money while occasionally biting some Extractors. Aliens never really had to struggle because they were hardly pressured (because overall, balance was on their side, no matter the exact reason).
2. The other reason why Marines were disadvantaged pre 240 is the hitreg. Seeing the difference between then and now, I'm sure this played a *big* role. The hitreg fix in 240 is plain good and needed, period.
3. I don't think competitive winrate should be used to judge if the game is balanced. Competitive games are great to see how the game works when everyone is at the expected skill ceiling, so nothing will be grossly overpowered. But they seem to be very different from usual pub games (half the team sizes, totally different build orders, etc).
Now for the important part:
4. Win rates are a bad way to do judge balance, you have to look what they mean. For example, answer this question:
What would a "balanced" win rate for games under 60 seconds be?
a) 50% wins for either team
b) 90% Marine wins
c) 90% Alien wins
Hint: 60 seconds is really short.
So, let's look what an under 60 second game very likely means. First, it is a Skulk rush. Secondly, it is a Skulk rush that went unnoticed by the Marine team until Aliens were in their base (because if they were noticed, the game would certainly have lasted more than 60 seconds) and it means most Marines never saw the enemy (even if Aliens had killed most Marines, they probably wouldn't have won under 60 seconds). It is probably the fastest a game can be ended.
So, obviously 90% Alien win rate is the balanced win rate for games under 60 seconds. Because, on the condition that the game is ended in under 60 seconds, how can Aliens not win?
What I'm trying to say: you cannot judge balance solely from statistics without at any point having to look what the statistics mean for the actual game.
A 50% win rate in any situation (like for any game length) LITERALLY means, no matter what you do, it changes nothing. This is not balance, this is arbitrary and the opposite of a fun game (your actions mean nothing).
This is the Blizzard style game balance that looks good on paper and sucks every fun out of the game.
5. Skulk play does feel arbitrary now. No matter what you do, you get stomped.
You play shitty? You get stomped. You team is much better overall than Marines, but they aren't total noobs? You still get stomped.
You run towards a single Marine on the floor? You get shot. You skillfully ambush a single Marine, taking your time? Marine activates bunny mode, and you still get shot.
I feel that, if 12 identical clones of me played against 12 identical clones of me past 240, Marine win rate would be 99,99999%.
It's just not fun to play Skulk with the bunnyhop thing and late game uselessness due to hitreg.
Maybe instead of getting the acceleration/friction back, Skulks should just get more HP - Marines would have to reload more often while bunnyhopping (which changes a lot), and the hitreg is somehow alleviated.