- When a patch changes something, you better adapt to the change.
- Crying that something isn't overpowered anymore and should returned to its former state, because it is so much fun to win, will not do any good for the game.
These two points can be applied to any change that could ever conceivably happen. I am going to keep them handy the next time you think something isn't balanced.
Do we really need another thread for this? Anyways...
- Skulkvsmarine is currently in a better state than before imo. It needs some slight adjustments though. And yes, you can still sneak up on two or even more marines and come out on top. If those marines are good players though, you will probably die fast, as you should.
I care not about the 2 v 1 scenario...but more about the 1 v 1...which a smart marine can win...even if you get within biting distance without taking damage.
The accel issues mean the marine can more easily change direction and subsequently avoid being bitten.
Do we really need another thread for this? Anyways...
- Hydras at the moment are way more useful than they were at release. Do you even remember how gimped they were at release? There used to be a time you could just move from side to side whilst shooting them, and they would all simply miss. Now they actually hit marines reliably. As does the gorge spit.
No hydras are still easily avoided and do pitiful damage considering their cost and limit.
Do we really need another thread for this? Anyways...
- You can't take out an exo as a solo skulk while running straight at them? Huge problem? This messes up the early game?
Who said that? Actually I still can solo an exo as exo's dont have the ability to jump out of the way like marines.
Do we really need another thread for this? Anyways...
- Skulks can still move around pretty quick with the walljump boost. It's mainly in melee combat that they are less agile and suffer more against a good dodging marine.
Which is exactly the whole point...early game aliens are skulks...lerks are borderline but closer to mid than early game.
Do we really need another thread for this? Anyways...
In short, you're overreacting.
In short your burying your head in teh sand...the issues have been articulated by myself and many others.
The crux is the accel changes widened the gap too much as marines dont have any ramp up of accel (haven't since late beta around the time of skulk surfing).
Fact is that skulks early game are pretty worthless...and their value only goes downhill.
Heck even when you have a 4 hive aliens team the tier 3 ability (xeno) cant kill a marine as he spawns (assuming atleast some armour upgrades)...get late game marines can tear all sorts of strips out of all aliens.
Only Onos is partially safe.
- I know skulks have it harder now in melee combat. It's right there in my post. I actually agree that there's still a need for further tweaking. I was just pointing out to the OP that taking out multiple marines as a solo skulk is and always should be the exception, not the rule, and that skulks can still move around the map a lot faster than marines.
- I know bile bomb is mid game. It was the OP that brought it up when explaining the uselessness of the aliens' early game. Just had to correct for all the dramatization and say that bile bomb is still very potent.
- If you think hydras need a buff, that's your opinion. The OP however was claiming they were somehow nerfed since release, when actually they have only gotten better since release, which I adressed.
- About the exos, I was again only referring to the OP. He claimed that the skulkvsexo play has changed drastically in the favor of exos, which I disagreed with. It is still very much possible to do some significant damage to exos, or even solo kill them if they're rookies. But not if you charge them head on. It has always been like this.
I'm not burying my head in the sand, on the contrary. I'm simply contending the rediculous lack of nuance the OP has brought forth in stating his opinion. If the early game aliens were really as useless as he claims them to be, it would be nigh impossible to reach the winrate aliens have at the moment.
Are there still some issues? Sure. Are they as game breaking as the OP believes them to be? Far from it.
- When a patch changes something, you better adapt to the change.
- Crying that something isn't overpowered anymore and should returned to its former state, because it is so much fun to win, will not do any good for the game.
These two points can be applied to any change that could ever conceivably happen. I am going to keep them handy the next time you think something isn't balanced.
It's fascinating to me, how you are always able to miss the central point of an argument and than comment on a few sentences without context, so you can disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. In Germany we have a word for such behavior: "Rabulistik". Sadly I can't find an English translation for it.
Or maybe it's me, that can't handle the English language good enough to communicate my point. I will go with the second this time and just try it again:
In my opinion the vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine is fine right now. I think it was overpowered before 240 and frustrating in 240. My experiences with "nerfing in game rules" always result in players being displeased because they can't apply their normal game play and win this easy as before. It is a normal human reaction that you don't like when something is taken from you / something is made more difficult. But everyone who claims himself as being able to determine balance problems should also be able to look at the whole picture and maybe realize why a nerf was needed.
The problem with the 'learn to be better' argument you present is that I could say to you the same thing. Aim better and skulk movement pre 240 wouldn't have been an issue, and I think a greater than 50% movement nerf is an issue. Or I could say play smarter and find the lerk, so we wouldn't have the issue of throwing perch out the window by adding in tracers. Its something the devs spent a lot of time and effort into creating. Because tracers do throw perch out the window.
So you see the argument you present is nonsensical. The players who had no problem pre 240 want the skill ceiling boosted for the aliens, while the problem makers were in fact the players who wanted skulks to be slow and easily hittable, and lerks to be instantly spotted.
The skulk movement nerf of >50% was about 40% too much. Lerk tracers throw perching in the garbage. And celerity not working in combat is a bad idea. All that needed to happen in patch 240, was nerf these value from
I don't believe that the early game (with skulks and lerks) is currently unbalanced. It sure may never reach exact 50% because of different maps with different %. But this isn't important. Important is, that the game is fun AND that you can't tell one team has it easier to win than the other (like it was pre 240).
Default whining after a patch nerfed something. Now it's slightly more difficult to play skulk and whoop di dooh, better start complaining.
Some easy things to understand:
- In a game with even player-numbers for each team, one sides default class can't defeat 2 of the others side default classes with even skill. Or you have an unbalanced game like we had before 240.
- When a patch changes something, you better adapt to the change.
- Crying that something isn't overpowered anymore and should returned to its former state, because it is so much fun to win, will not do any good for the game.
This said, the skulk is fine right now. It is at least more fair than pre 240. Learn to walljump and to chose when to engage.
But I can kill 2 skulks...heck back before they changed accel for marines or improved hit reg skilled marines could take 2 or 3 skulks.
This is not default whinging after a patch...I actually stopped playing alien in last days of 240 due to sheer frustration.
I am not far of doing the same with 241.
The gap in accel is too great, the fact that strofix thinks its broken i think illustrates how bad it is....I dont think I have ever agreed with anything he has ever said in relation to balance (no offense intended strofix...sure you recognize we are normally in opposing camps).
Hit reg has been the biggest issue for marines....meant bad skulks could close the distance due to bullets missing.
As hit reg has taken leaps and bounds that alone would shift the balance.
Skulks, unlike marines, are totally useless in any offensive way by mid-late game, now they are nigh on useless from the onset.
Marines find it easier to kill the enemy as time goes on (fewer hits required) and last longer in combat (more hits taken).
Aliens simply find it harder to kill marines as time progresses...you may or may not get an armour boost (cara) but not when you spawn...no you must become vulnerable for gestation.
Making it totally useless in most last hive scenarios.
As I have said a couple of times in this and other threads, I know how to get within bite distance...problem is in keeping an experienced marine in bite distance when he is more agile and melee efficient that a melee based life form......
Ok, than it must be my anecdotal experience. But I really experience it as a fair battle in 241. 240 was frustrating, yes. And even now the aliens are forced to use more teamplay than before. (Rambo-Skulk is less viable.) But I don't find it frustrating or unfair when playing skulk now. And win-loss-rates seem more fair than before 240.
But as I wrote, that maybe only my opinion. I will just be happy if people at least take a second to think about the possibility, that they are only complaining because it got more difficult. Not because the skulk is now underpowered or frustrating to play.
I will just be happy if people at least take a second to think about the possibility, that they are only complaining because it got more difficult.
Then maybe you should try to not be so condescending when you suggest it.
You know, if you really want to give the illusion of being open minded and all.
I agree with _Necro_, When you have two default classes hashing it out it should come to player skill as the decider at that point. I never understood all this hubbub about "when I am a skulk early game I should be able to take out 3-4 marines single handed... anyone with half a brain should be able to deduce that the skulk at that point is over powered unless they are playing against UBER NOOBS.
Before the 240-241 patches I could play Aliens while half asleep and still win the game. Now they have to work for a living and all the lazy people of the world are crying WAAAAAAAAAAAH I am soooooo weepy!
Game is more balanced now than ever!
Yes it does need refinement in some areas but nothing major anymore.
As has been said many times in the past, 50/50 balance isn't the be all, end all. There could be a million other things in the mid to late game creation the current balance, and the early game could be in as poor a state as many of us seem to think it is.
I think determining a standard of "acceptable expansion" for each team would help in deducing how well early game balance is working out. For example, since 241, the marine team in most of the games I've played has taken up to 70% of the resource nodes (and the map territory by extension) within the first 3-4 minutes. To me, this is an unacceptable level of expansion, and is the symptom of poor early game balance.
What kind of marine control have others seen, and what would you deem an acceptable level of expansion?
I'm just going to go ahead and quote my first post in the thread.
"The counter arguments for approving of the 240 changes have been TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE."
Whether it is SeeVee saying he could play b239 skulk in his sleep or what have you, you can see that all these counter arguments are purely subjective. What I say is that a greater than 50% decrease in skulk movement is a drastic change. Tracers have effectively taken out perching in combat with a lerk. Both these nerfs require the marines to be less skilled. Before the patch, skulks who could control the speed and bites were at the top of the spectrum. Afterwards, the patch has limited the top skulks into being marginally better than average skulks. B240 and 241 doesn't allow skulks to be as good anymore, so you see the game has had its skill ceiling decreased.
Make skulks accelerate around 10% less than b239, take out tracers for lerks, and make lerks regen slower with regeneration trait. Done.
I want balance in this game, not to noobify this game.
Sorry, maybe I can't find it. But I don't see any win-loss-percentages that are viable yet. The numbers (for skulk acceleration) you posted do not say anything about the balance. They are one tiny gear and could be exactly at the right place now, to bring down the exorbitant alien wins of pre240.
So when you bring an argument to the table lets keep it objective and not subjective. And lerks being unable to perch while in combat is not a matter of opinion, neither is a greater than 50% decrease in skulk acceleration. Your turn.
I play on the Yo Clan and Alcatraz servers quite a lot and both a filled with Clan(not just Yo) and experienced players very rarely do you see rookies, so this idea that people who say the skulk is fine don't play against good players is making themselves look silly.
The problem with Skulk is that it's unnatural for quite a lot of people's play-style people want to be all high K/D and feel they're dominating maybe the silly multiplayer culture we have these days, but this game makes solo people suffer, which I like.
Here's an idea next time you play Skulk get one or two others and watch how effective you are.
So when you bring an argument to the table lets keep it objective and not subjective. And lerks being unable to perch while in combat is not a matter of opinion, neither is a greater than 50% decrease in skulk acceleration. Your turn.
I don't know how to explain my opinion more clear. There is no objective data to determine where balance is right now. The vague data we have, implies that balance is closer to 50 / 50 than before b240. Saying that the change in skulk movement has set aliens on a disadvantage in terms of balance is even more subjective, because it isn't backed up by the vague data about win / loss we have right now.
I think, there are only two important things that would justify a change:
- something is more fun with a change
- something is overpowered / underpowered and a change could lead to more balance
The first one is subjective, (I find the current skulk movement fun, you don't.) the second one can only be objective rated with more data on win / loss.
Why is one skulk not being able to own two marines a bad thing?
1 marine can own two Skulks at range pretty easily.
1 Skulk should own two marines at close combat pretty easily, currently they don't.
You can't evoke Zerg like behavior for either team in this game. 1v1 needs to be balanced so that over all combat situations the probability of winning with equal skill is 50%, if you can't reach that then the team with the probability advantage wins by default by sending their whole team in. It can either be 50% all the time or vary depending on circumstance but 50% summed up. Marine vs Skulk the marine should be higher than 50% at range (and I believe it currently is), likewise the Skulk should have the same increase in winning at close range (which I believe it currently doesn't). Add in upgrades and things can shift for a while, giving one team an advantage while the other team techs to counter.
your point would be valid if there were no other lifeforms beside skulk.
skulk is not intended to reliably kill a marine in a 1v1 arena. you have to either ambush, attack in groups or gamble and attack if you're confident that the marine is lesser skilled.
in my personal opinion the current game is a bit boring because marine have the advantage early on, and aliens are in a position where it feels like they have to force marines into a mistake to have a chance of their own. however, UWE are experimenting with bold changes to make the game more dynamic and exciting - check out the balance test mod.
anyway, i'm tired of this whine. whenever i lose pub as alien team it's either because marine team is more skilled, or because aliens are full of whining scrubs.
Except that in the early game (where more often than not the rest of the game can be decided) the only lifeform is the Skulk. If the Skulk is not intended to kill a marine 1v1 then how should the aliens win when the entire marine team attacks one location? They have to give that location up?
I'll say it again, you can not say aliens should play like zerg in this game, you can't get a numbers advantage because the teams are the same size! If you have to send 3/4 of the aliens to kill half the marines then on the other side of the map the other 1/2 of the marines have killed the other 1/4 of your aliens and are now pushing on getting massive map control.
Some easy things to understand:
- In a game with even player-numbers for each team, one sides default class can't defeat 2 of the others side default classes with even skill. Or you have an unbalanced game like we had before 240.
Why is OK for a marine to be able to kill 2 or 3 Skulks, but not for a Skulk to do the same back? This happens a lot and as the game progress and marines get more tech it only becomes more common.
I play on the Yo Clan and Alcatraz servers quite a lot and both a filled with Clan(not just Yo) and experienced players very rarely do you see rookies, so this idea that people who say the skulk is fine don't play against good players is making themselves look silly.
The problem with Skulk is that it's unnatural for quite a lot of people's play-style people want to be all high K/D and feel they're dominating maybe the silly multiplayer culture we have these days, but this game makes solo people suffer, which I like.
Here's an idea next time you play Skulk get one or two others and watch how effective you are.
...
A marine can get another buddy and easily win a 2v3, and depending on the terrain he might even 1v3.
Skulk nerf was ok. I've adjusted to it and am now doing pretty well as Skulk with usually around 1.5 K/D as Skulk.
The only bricked lifeform that is now worse than a Skulk is Lerk, developers really dropped the ball here. And Gorge Tunnels removed the one advantage Lerk still has: rapid response.
Lerk is as of now not worth spending more than 10 pres on. There's no reason to not be allowed to immediately go Lerk on first spawn. Either buff it considerably or make it 10 pres.
On a even skill level, two Skulks will easily see the win and vice-verse, very rarely do I see a marine take on three Skulks on they own, unless with all the tech upgrades, but we're talking about early game.
Would be good to see you play and any others who think the Skulks broken, then I can see where the problem is for you, many times when I command Alien I have to tell people who are new how to Skulk to many just charge, on they own or not even use the wall or ceilings.
Also how to take a room people having been moaning about, there's many ways like swarming and spreading apart meaning the marines panic, another way is to get gorges to tank which in early game can take alot of hits.
The game balance is in fact the WORST it's ever been.
-Pistol scripting marines with faultless hitreg and no recoil on pistol nor LMG
-Texture swapping marines making their own little 'alien vision' with fluorescent bright textures for aliens
-Marines are more agile in CQC than a skulk, bunnyhopping higher and further and faster
-Lerks have "SHOOT ME PLEASE!" painted on them.
-Skulks are slower allowing easier early game map control for marines
-Lerks have been gradually nerfed more and more, although they originally needed a buff. Now celerity is mandatory and silence is useless.
-Marine weapon research tier 3 is an instant "we win" button, vaporizing any lower to medium lifeform with 1-3 bullets, carapace or not.
As of now the balance is a joke, all I heard from brilliant master planner SeeVee here, was: "I only play marines so now that I am roflstomping with the system on my side the BALANCE IS JUST FINE!"
Why is OK for a marine to be able to kill 2 or 3 Skulks, but not for a Skulk to do the same back? This happens a lot and as the game progress and marines get more tech it only becomes more common.
Looking at the numbers.. a marine has 100hp 30a, while 2 skulks have 70hp 10a each. Technically he only needs 18 bullets to kill them both, and he needs to get bit at least 3 times. If it's a close quarters fight, those 2 skulks should be able to kill the marine. If there is open space and the marine gets a chance to put some bullets into at least one skulk, all he really has to do is to juke to one side while reloading and try again, then swap to the pistol (25dmg a shot light dmg) to finish them off. A smart marine will try to sprint away to a more advantageous location in which to fight - for example, entering Stability Monitoring from Courtyard (docking map), he hears skulk movement or he knows there are skulks moving to engage him, turn around and sprint like hell back to Courtyard so there is a more open area in which to fight.
In other words, it's more than possible for a marine to kill 2 skulks, even 3 if he's lucky. For a skulk to do the same back, you have to once again consider that he only has enough hp/a to take 9 bullets to the face, while those 2 marines have between them 100 rifle bullets and 20 pistol bullets, and they both need 3 full bites to kill (each). It is possible, and I have done this before by immediately finishing off one marine, running behind a box or up a wall to let the other marine waste his bullets, then jump back in for the kill.
As to why it is acceptable... maybe this is part of the asymmetrical gameplay. Convenient excuse, I know, but skulks aren't really meant for head-on confrontations. They excel at ambush because they can be literally anywhere on the map thanks to wall walk and sneaky feet, and they also excel at killing the marine economy (how many times have you heard 'Topo is going down' or 'save Reactor Core').
As marines get more tech, the skulk's effectiveness against marines significantly decreases, but by then you should be gorge (10 res), or a lerk/fade (notoriously hard to kill if played properly), or an onos....
Looking at the numbers.. a marine has 100hp 30a, while 2 skulks have 70hp 10a each. Technically he only needs 18 bullets to kill them both, and he needs to get bit at least 3 times. If it's a close quarters fight, those 2 skulks should be able to kill the marine. If there is open space and the marine gets a chance to put some bullets into at least one skulk, all he really has to do is to juke to one side while reloading and try again, then swap to the pistol (25dmg a shot light dmg) to finish them off. A smart marine will try to sprint away to a more advantageous location in which to fight - for example, entering Stability Monitoring from Courtyard (docking map), he hears skulk movement or he knows there are skulks moving to engage him, turn around and sprint like hell back to Courtyard so there is a more open area in which to fight.
In other words, it's more than possible for a marine to kill 2 skulks, even 3 if he's lucky. For a skulk to do the same back, you have to once again consider that he only has enough hp/a to take 9 bullets to the face, while those 2 marines have between them 100 rifle bullets and 20 pistol bullets, and they both need 3 full bites to kill (each). It is possible, and I have done this before by immediately finishing off one marine, running behind a box or up a wall to let the other marine waste his bullets, then jump back in for the kill.
As to why it is acceptable... maybe this is part of the asymmetrical gameplay. Convenient excuse, I know, but skulks aren't really meant for head-on confrontations. They excel at ambush because they can be literally anywhere on the map thanks to wall walk and sneaky feet, and they also excel at killing the marine economy (how many times have you heard 'Topo is going down' or 'save Reactor Core').
As marines get more tech, the skulk's effectiveness against marines significantly decreases, but by then you should be gorge (10 res), or a lerk/fade (notoriously hard to kill if played properly), or an onos....
If skulks can easily lose early engagements even when they have advantage in numbers, how are they gonna survive until mid game? (when lerks and fades come into play)
-Pistol scripting marines with faultless hitreg and no recoil on pistol nor LMG
This has always been in the game. Pistol macros will never go away as long as the RoF isnt capped.
Hitreg is a ongoing issue.
-Texture swapping marines making their own little 'alien vision' with fluorescent bright textures for aliens
Play on servers with consistency checks. They work.
-Marines are more agile in CQC than a skulk, bunnyhopping higher and further and faster -Skulks are slower allowing easier early game map control for marines
It depends. A good marine will always beat a less skilled skulk. A good marine will also not be running around solo. A good skulk can try and predict these marine "bunnyhops" and counter. IMO, the early game marine/skulk interaction is now marine sided. As for map control, skulks can still get around easily enough. Wall jumping works better now that the floor bug is gone.
-Lerks have been gradually nerfed more and more, although they originally needed a buff. Now celerity is mandatory and silence is useless.
-Lerks have "SHOOT ME PLEASE!" painted on them.
Don't be a stationary lerk... ever. Even though I hate the spike trails myself, they also obscure marine vision if multiple lerks are spamming spikes down a hallway. It's like a dust cloud effect. Lerks have not needed a buff for a long time. They are extremely useful early game. Once SGs come out, lerks take a purely support role of chipping down armor rather than attacking. Silence lerk still does have advantages as well. A lerk roaming the map with a skulk pack (all using silence & cara) is still quite effective.
-Marine weapon research tier 3 is an instant "we win" button, vaporizing any lower to medium lifeform with 1-3 bullets, carapace or not.
False. By the time marines get W3A3, you should have fades, lerks, and possibly onos on the field. If you do not, then your team has lost already regardless of marine tech.
tl;dr The game is still far from balanced, but the current build did not 'break' balance further. Since the gorgeous update is out, balance patches are next.
As marines get more tech, the skulk's effectiveness against marines significantly decreases, end quote. But how much more effectiveness has been lossed since the b240 patch? Let's take a look at these numbers (taken from forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2090472#Comment_2090472)
Is a 54% decrease in acceleration and friction equal to a 54% decrease in skulk effectiveness? In my opinion time or speed exponentially affects skulk survivability.
The skulk nerf was a step too far, there's multiple topics discussing it so I wont go into it again.
But, the lerk. other than the spike trails, in what way was it "bricked"? I still find a celerity lerk to be *very* effective right up until the late game tech comes out. But then I play very aggressively as a lerk, not the sit back and snipe type.
My only gripe with the lerk is that I play with a high sensitivity and if you turn quick enough you can end up randomly floating backwards rather than actually turning... got me killed more than once :P
If skulks can easily lose early engagements even when they have advantage in numbers, how are they gonna survive until mid game? (when lerks and fades come into play)
Straight floor running skulks lose early engagements, just as newbie 'waste my entire rifle magazine shooting at a cyst' marines can lose early engagements.
A competant marine team will usually take and hold ground quickly in the early game, using the advantages of range, firepower and teammates' covering fire to hold back skulks. Knowledge of the map and avoidance of likely skulk ambush spots or tight quarters, plus tactical positioning (on top of a box, behind some railing, etc) add to the marine advantage.
A competant alien team will recognize that throwing themselves into an open area against an equally competant marine team hell-bent on holding the area is usually futile. It is usually better to go AROUND the marines and hit their extractors from behind to force them to respond, or even snipe their obs/IP in base. It is also viable to organize an ambush in anticipation of the marines heading to an objective (ie. marines in East Wing are likely to push up to Departures).
When skulks lose an early engagement with marines, step back and figure out why you lost that fight. Did you rush out head-on into concentrated rifle fire from a high ground/distance? Did you have floor running skulks? Did you step on some mines? Was there an ubermensch marine with 100fps in combat and superb aim? Did they have a forward armory? Was the comm spamming meds? You can't just tell me that skulks easily lose early engagements without telling me the reasons.
In most of the games that I play in, 4 - 5 decent skulks will easily decimate 3 - 4 marines, but not head-on (usually). Say you want to hold Repair Room on tram. There is no reason why the skulks should leave Repair Room to engage the marines head-on. Stay back, parasite to weaken their armor and swarm them when they either walk into Repair Room or stand close to the doorway (like idiots).
Comments
These two points can be applied to any change that could ever conceivably happen. I am going to keep them handy the next time you think something isn't balanced.
- I know skulks have it harder now in melee combat. It's right there in my post. I actually agree that there's still a need for further tweaking. I was just pointing out to the OP that taking out multiple marines as a solo skulk is and always should be the exception, not the rule, and that skulks can still move around the map a lot faster than marines.
- I know bile bomb is mid game. It was the OP that brought it up when explaining the uselessness of the aliens' early game. Just had to correct for all the dramatization and say that bile bomb is still very potent.
- If you think hydras need a buff, that's your opinion. The OP however was claiming they were somehow nerfed since release, when actually they have only gotten better since release, which I adressed.
- About the exos, I was again only referring to the OP. He claimed that the skulkvsexo play has changed drastically in the favor of exos, which I disagreed with. It is still very much possible to do some significant damage to exos, or even solo kill them if they're rookies. But not if you charge them head on. It has always been like this.
I'm not burying my head in the sand, on the contrary. I'm simply contending the rediculous lack of nuance the OP has brought forth in stating his opinion. If the early game aliens were really as useless as he claims them to be, it would be nigh impossible to reach the winrate aliens have at the moment.
Are there still some issues? Sure. Are they as game breaking as the OP believes them to be? Far from it.
It's fascinating to me, how you are always able to miss the central point of an argument and than comment on a few sentences without context, so you can disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. In Germany we have a word for such behavior: "Rabulistik". Sadly I can't find an English translation for it.
Or maybe it's me, that can't handle the English language good enough to communicate my point. I will go with the second this time and just try it again:
In my opinion the vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine is fine right now. I think it was overpowered before 240 and frustrating in 240. My experiences with "nerfing in game rules" always result in players being displeased because they can't apply their normal game play and win this easy as before. It is a normal human reaction that you don't like when something is taken from you / something is made more difficult. But everyone who claims himself as being able to determine balance problems should also be able to look at the whole picture and maybe realize why a nerf was needed.
So you see the argument you present is nonsensical. The players who had no problem pre 240 want the skill ceiling boosted for the aliens, while the problem makers were in fact the players who wanted skulks to be slow and easily hittable, and lerks to be instantly spotted.
The skulk movement nerf of >50% was about 40% too much. Lerk tracers throw perching in the garbage. And celerity not working in combat is a bad idea. All that needed to happen in patch 240, was nerf these value from
Skulk.kAcceleration = 140
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 20
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 33
down a little
not a ridiculous amount as more than 50%
In 240 to
Skulk.kAcceleration = 64
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 9.15
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 15
Throw in a nerf to how fast regen works on lerks, and throw out the tracers, and you have a balanced game again.
This is not default whinging after a patch...I actually stopped playing alien in last days of 240 due to sheer frustration.
I am not far of doing the same with 241.
The gap in accel is too great, the fact that strofix thinks its broken i think illustrates how bad it is....I dont think I have ever agreed with anything he has ever said in relation to balance (no offense intended strofix...sure you recognize we are normally in opposing camps).
Hit reg has been the biggest issue for marines....meant bad skulks could close the distance due to bullets missing.
As hit reg has taken leaps and bounds that alone would shift the balance.
Skulks, unlike marines, are totally useless in any offensive way by mid-late game, now they are nigh on useless from the onset.
Marines find it easier to kill the enemy as time goes on (fewer hits required) and last longer in combat (more hits taken).
Aliens simply find it harder to kill marines as time progresses...you may or may not get an armour boost (cara) but not when you spawn...no you must become vulnerable for gestation.
Making it totally useless in most last hive scenarios.
As I have said a couple of times in this and other threads, I know how to get within bite distance...problem is in keeping an experienced marine in bite distance when he is more agile and melee efficient that a melee based life form......
But as I wrote, that maybe only my opinion. I will just be happy if people at least take a second to think about the possibility, that they are only complaining because it got more difficult. Not because the skulk is now underpowered or frustrating to play.
Then maybe you should try to not be so condescending when you suggest it.
You know, if you really want to give the illusion of being open minded and all.
Before the 240-241 patches I could play Aliens while half asleep and still win the game. Now they have to work for a living and all the lazy people of the world are crying WAAAAAAAAAAAH I am soooooo weepy!
Game is more balanced now than ever!
Yes it does need refinement in some areas but nothing major anymore.
As has been said many times in the past, 50/50 balance isn't the be all, end all. There could be a million other things in the mid to late game creation the current balance, and the early game could be in as poor a state as many of us seem to think it is.
I think determining a standard of "acceptable expansion" for each team would help in deducing how well early game balance is working out. For example, since 241, the marine team in most of the games I've played has taken up to 70% of the resource nodes (and the map territory by extension) within the first 3-4 minutes. To me, this is an unacceptable level of expansion, and is the symptom of poor early game balance.
What kind of marine control have others seen, and what would you deem an acceptable level of expansion?
As a Marine, if I ambush two skulks by hiding, I'll kill one of them all the time, and kill the second 50% of the time.
As a Skulk, if I ambush two marines, I'll kill none of them.
There's your problem.
"The counter arguments for approving of the 240 changes have been TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE."
Whether it is SeeVee saying he could play b239 skulk in his sleep or what have you, you can see that all these counter arguments are purely subjective. What I say is that a greater than 50% decrease in skulk movement is a drastic change. Tracers have effectively taken out perching in combat with a lerk. Both these nerfs require the marines to be less skilled. Before the patch, skulks who could control the speed and bites were at the top of the spectrum. Afterwards, the patch has limited the top skulks into being marginally better than average skulks. B240 and 241 doesn't allow skulks to be as good anymore, so you see the game has had its skill ceiling decreased.
Make skulks accelerate around 10% less than b239, take out tracers for lerks, and make lerks regen slower with regeneration trait. Done.
I want balance in this game, not to noobify this game.
The problem with Skulk is that it's unnatural for quite a lot of people's play-style people want to be all high K/D and feel they're dominating maybe the silly multiplayer culture we have these days, but this game makes solo people suffer, which I like.
Here's an idea next time you play Skulk get one or two others and watch how effective you are.
I don't know how to explain my opinion more clear. There is no objective data to determine where balance is right now. The vague data we have, implies that balance is closer to 50 / 50 than before b240. Saying that the change in skulk movement has set aliens on a disadvantage in terms of balance is even more subjective, because it isn't backed up by the vague data about win / loss we have right now.
I think, there are only two important things that would justify a change:
- something is more fun with a change
- something is overpowered / underpowered and a change could lead to more balance
The first one is subjective, (I find the current skulk movement fun, you don't.) the second one can only be objective rated with more data on win / loss.
Except that in the early game (where more often than not the rest of the game can be decided) the only lifeform is the Skulk. If the Skulk is not intended to kill a marine 1v1 then how should the aliens win when the entire marine team attacks one location? They have to give that location up?
I'll say it again, you can not say aliens should play like zerg in this game, you can't get a numbers advantage because the teams are the same size! If you have to send 3/4 of the aliens to kill half the marines then on the other side of the map the other 1/2 of the marines have killed the other 1/4 of your aliens and are now pushing on getting massive map control.
Why is OK for a marine to be able to kill 2 or 3 Skulks, but not for a Skulk to do the same back? This happens a lot and as the game progress and marines get more tech it only becomes more common.
...
A marine can get another buddy and easily win a 2v3, and depending on the terrain he might even 1v3.
The only bricked lifeform that is now worse than a Skulk is Lerk, developers really dropped the ball here. And Gorge Tunnels removed the one advantage Lerk still has: rapid response.
Lerk is as of now not worth spending more than 10 pres on. There's no reason to not be allowed to immediately go Lerk on first spawn. Either buff it considerably or make it 10 pres.
Would be good to see you play and any others who think the Skulks broken, then I can see where the problem is for you, many times when I command Alien I have to tell people who are new how to Skulk to many just charge, on they own or not even use the wall or ceilings.
Also how to take a room people having been moaning about, there's many ways like swarming and spreading apart meaning the marines panic, another way is to get gorges to tank which in early game can take alot of hits.
^^This glowing specimen of humanity has something to say:
The game balance is in fact the WORST it's ever been.
-Pistol scripting marines with faultless hitreg and no recoil on pistol nor LMG
-Texture swapping marines making their own little 'alien vision' with fluorescent bright textures for aliens
-Marines are more agile in CQC than a skulk, bunnyhopping higher and further and faster
-Lerks have "SHOOT ME PLEASE!" painted on them.
-Skulks are slower allowing easier early game map control for marines
-Lerks have been gradually nerfed more and more, although they originally needed a buff. Now celerity is mandatory and silence is useless.
-Marine weapon research tier 3 is an instant "we win" button, vaporizing any lower to medium lifeform with 1-3 bullets, carapace or not.
As of now the balance is a joke, all I heard from brilliant master planner SeeVee here, was: "I only play marines so now that I am roflstomping with the system on my side the BALANCE IS JUST FINE!"
Looking at the numbers.. a marine has 100hp 30a, while 2 skulks have 70hp 10a each. Technically he only needs 18 bullets to kill them both, and he needs to get bit at least 3 times. If it's a close quarters fight, those 2 skulks should be able to kill the marine. If there is open space and the marine gets a chance to put some bullets into at least one skulk, all he really has to do is to juke to one side while reloading and try again, then swap to the pistol (25dmg a shot light dmg) to finish them off. A smart marine will try to sprint away to a more advantageous location in which to fight - for example, entering Stability Monitoring from Courtyard (docking map), he hears skulk movement or he knows there are skulks moving to engage him, turn around and sprint like hell back to Courtyard so there is a more open area in which to fight.
In other words, it's more than possible for a marine to kill 2 skulks, even 3 if he's lucky. For a skulk to do the same back, you have to once again consider that he only has enough hp/a to take 9 bullets to the face, while those 2 marines have between them 100 rifle bullets and 20 pistol bullets, and they both need 3 full bites to kill (each). It is possible, and I have done this before by immediately finishing off one marine, running behind a box or up a wall to let the other marine waste his bullets, then jump back in for the kill.
As to why it is acceptable... maybe this is part of the asymmetrical gameplay. Convenient excuse, I know, but skulks aren't really meant for head-on confrontations. They excel at ambush because they can be literally anywhere on the map thanks to wall walk and sneaky feet, and they also excel at killing the marine economy (how many times have you heard 'Topo is going down' or 'save Reactor Core').
As marines get more tech, the skulk's effectiveness against marines significantly decreases, but by then you should be gorge (10 res), or a lerk/fade (notoriously hard to kill if played properly), or an onos....
If skulks can easily lose early engagements even when they have advantage in numbers, how are they gonna survive until mid game? (when lerks and fades come into play)
This has always been in the game. Pistol macros will never go away as long as the RoF isnt capped.
Hitreg is a ongoing issue.
-Texture swapping marines making their own little 'alien vision' with fluorescent bright textures for aliens
Play on servers with consistency checks. They work.
-Marines are more agile in CQC than a skulk, bunnyhopping higher and further and faster
-Skulks are slower allowing easier early game map control for marines
It depends. A good marine will always beat a less skilled skulk. A good marine will also not be running around solo. A good skulk can try and predict these marine "bunnyhops" and counter. IMO, the early game marine/skulk interaction is now marine sided. As for map control, skulks can still get around easily enough. Wall jumping works better now that the floor bug is gone.
-Lerks have been gradually nerfed more and more, although they originally needed a buff. Now celerity is mandatory and silence is useless.
-Lerks have "SHOOT ME PLEASE!" painted on them.
Don't be a stationary lerk... ever. Even though I hate the spike trails myself, they also obscure marine vision if multiple lerks are spamming spikes down a hallway. It's like a dust cloud effect. Lerks have not needed a buff for a long time. They are extremely useful early game. Once SGs come out, lerks take a purely support role of chipping down armor rather than attacking. Silence lerk still does have advantages as well. A lerk roaming the map with a skulk pack (all using silence & cara) is still quite effective.
-Marine weapon research tier 3 is an instant "we win" button, vaporizing any lower to medium lifeform with 1-3 bullets, carapace or not.
False. By the time marines get W3A3, you should have fades, lerks, and possibly onos on the field. If you do not, then your team has lost already regardless of marine tech.
tl;dr The game is still far from balanced, but the current build did not 'break' balance further. Since the gorgeous update is out, balance patches are next.
In 239
Skulk.kAcceleration = 140
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 20
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 33
In 240
Skulk.kAcceleration = 64
Skulk.kGroundFriction = 9.15
Skulk.kGroundWalkFriction = 15
Is a 54% decrease in acceleration and friction equal to a 54% decrease in skulk effectiveness? In my opinion time or speed exponentially affects skulk survivability.
But, the lerk. other than the spike trails, in what way was it "bricked"? I still find a celerity lerk to be *very* effective right up until the late game tech comes out. But then I play very aggressively as a lerk, not the sit back and snipe type.
My only gripe with the lerk is that I play with a high sensitivity and if you turn quick enough you can end up randomly floating backwards rather than actually turning... got me killed more than once :P
Straight floor running skulks lose early engagements, just as newbie 'waste my entire rifle magazine shooting at a cyst' marines can lose early engagements.
A competant marine team will usually take and hold ground quickly in the early game, using the advantages of range, firepower and teammates' covering fire to hold back skulks. Knowledge of the map and avoidance of likely skulk ambush spots or tight quarters, plus tactical positioning (on top of a box, behind some railing, etc) add to the marine advantage.
A competant alien team will recognize that throwing themselves into an open area against an equally competant marine team hell-bent on holding the area is usually futile. It is usually better to go AROUND the marines and hit their extractors from behind to force them to respond, or even snipe their obs/IP in base. It is also viable to organize an ambush in anticipation of the marines heading to an objective (ie. marines in East Wing are likely to push up to Departures).
When skulks lose an early engagement with marines, step back and figure out why you lost that fight. Did you rush out head-on into concentrated rifle fire from a high ground/distance? Did you have floor running skulks? Did you step on some mines? Was there an ubermensch marine with 100fps in combat and superb aim? Did they have a forward armory? Was the comm spamming meds? You can't just tell me that skulks easily lose early engagements without telling me the reasons.
In most of the games that I play in, 4 - 5 decent skulks will easily decimate 3 - 4 marines, but not head-on (usually). Say you want to hold Repair Room on tram. There is no reason why the skulks should leave Repair Room to engage the marines head-on. Stay back, parasite to weaken their armor and swarm them when they either walk into Repair Room or stand close to the doorway (like idiots).